No "Rest" for the Wicked

[verbatim]

Inspired by the recent thread on allowing players to double up on subclasses (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?591889-Has-anyone-tried-playing-with-double-subclasses), and the discussion about how said change would unevenly effect classes.

To that end, I thought it would be interesting to talk about how "good" certain classes are when the frequency of short and long rests are adjusted.

Imagine a tower defense scenario (Tier 1 or 2), where the players have to hold onto a building until they are overwhelmed (prehaps expecting help that never arrives). We can simulate a lot of different variances in availability of rests within this framework.


1 Long Rest Per 6-8 Encounters: Standard (as per XGtE), we'll be comparing other options against this one.

1 Long Rest Per 3-4 Encounters: Pretty much everyone with spell slots (except for the warlock) benefits from this change.

1 Short Rest Per 3-4 Encounters (no long rests): Almost everyone with spell slots drops off horrendously at this point, the only exceptions being the warlock and to an extent the Land Druid. Martials are the primary beneficiary here. Everyone loses the ability to restore hit dice.

No Rests: Every single class loses the ability to use hit dice, and every class except for the rogue loses some kind of resource that restores on a rest (long or short). The fiendlock stands out as a particularly valuable option at this point, having a resourceless ranged attack and the ability to get temp HP off of kills.



How many encounters do you run between rests? What team compositions do you think would be the most heavily impacted by moving that variable around? If you found yourself facing down a No Rests campaign, how would that affect your teambuilding process?

[Particle_Man]

I divorce the game mechanic from the game time. My party gets a short rest adventage after encounters number 2 and 4, whether the time between encounter 2 and 3 is a week, a minute or a second. Similarly they get a long rest after encounter number 6, regardless of that time between that encounter and the next encounter (which for simplicity, would restart the numbering as number 1 of the next set of six encounters).

Interestingly, while it eliminates the "15 minute workday" issue, it also leads to the party doing an entire dungeon in one game day! Kinda like an action movie!

[Hypersmith]

First off, if I find myself in a no rests campaign, I'm leaving the game. Because that does not sound fun at all.

I've found that in a normal day, 5 ish encounters is ideal. Slow days see up to 3, hard days up to 9. Encounters are anything where resource drain can solve a problem, not just fights. An example of a very successful long day I ran fairly recently went like so:

Social encounter, medium fight, stealth portion, social encounter. Short rest. Medium fight, followed by the party spending some time prepping for a hard fight by reinforcing a location, short rest. Chase scene/encounter, hard fight.

This adventuring day took more than a session to complete, and by the end players were running dry in resources, health, and options. They'd come dangerously close to dying, but ended victorious. They took two short rests over the course of 8 encounters.

Now this isn't the ideal norm. It's an exciting occasional situation. I think 1 long every 4-5 ish encounters, with one or two short rests, is what allows the party the most chance to feel strong without feeling overpowered.

[verbatim]

I put the "no rest" campaign out there as a hypothetical, I would never do that outside of maybe a oneshot w/ everyone briefed ahead of time.

[Innocent_bystan]

For a tower defense setup, I'd do a rest after each encounter. Short/Short/Long. This preserves in internal balance between short rest and long rest classes.

I would also make an encounter come in waves, at least a minute apart, with maybe some smaller groups in between.

Within this framework there is a usage for each of the spell duration options:
- 8 hours and up: spans across the whole day
- 10 minutes and up: all encounters between 2 rests
- 1 minute: a single wave

As the seige progresses, you could add a third major wave between rests, but maybe closer together so the buffs from the first wave carry over.

[Mongobear]

'No Rests' - Everyone is dead at the end of Day 6, because they've maxxed out Exhaustion.

Assuming a balanced number of Short to Long Rests (Approx 2:1), I'd create a team with a mixture of classes that recharge on both.

Usually, a Barbarian plus any other Martial with Short Rest abilities. Two casters spread over the spectrum for Support and/or Blasting, bonus points if they have Short Rest features (Arcane Recovery). And some sort of Skill Monkey/Utility class, like Rogue, Ranger, or Bard which can also lend to one of the Martial/Caster categories.

My ideal party:

Bear Totem Barbarian
Devotion Paladin
Arcana/Knowledge Cleric
Gloomstalker Ranger or Assassin Rogue
Evoker Wizard

2 beefy Melee characters, which can put out serious damage if needed.

2 (maybe 3) sources of emergency healing, and plenty of support/utility magic.

2 extremely good ranged damage sources

Technically this party is a little stacked on Long Rest features, so it may have trouble on long grindy days, but they're all strong options, plus Cantrips are strong for easier fights.

[Man_Over_Game]

A rough list of how dependent each class is for what kind of rest:


SHORT REST/MULTIPLE ENCOUNTERS
Rogues
Warlock
Monk
Fighter
Paladin
Barbarian
Ranger
Bard
Druid
Cleric
Wizard
Sorcerer
LONG REST/BOSS FIGHTS





COMBAT FOCUS
Fighter
Barbarian
Monk
Sorcerer
Paladin
Rogue
Ranger
Cleric
Wizard
Warlock
Druid
Bard
ROLEPLAYING FOCUS



As a general baseline, I wouldn't recommend more than 2 encounters before a Short Rest, and I'd recommend 2 or so Short Rests per every Long Rest.

So if you want 3 or less encounters in a day, you'd want a Short Rest between each encounter.

If you want 10 encounters in a day, you'd want a Short Rest between every 2 encounters (for 4 Short Rests in the day).

Most Short Rest-based classes run dry around the 3rd or 4th round of combat. Assuming you want a little bit of attrition (so players aren't spamming their best abilities without considering tactical value), this means that you'd want about 4 rounds of combat per Short Rest. Most encounters last for 3 rounds, so a healthy balance of 1-2 encounters per Short Rest is enough for characters to feel the value of their Short Rest resources while also understanding how limited they are. Another way you could look at it is aiming to have 1 Short Rest per 5 rounds of combat.

Otherwise, having more combat rounds before a Short Rest means your Warlock and Fighters are relying on stale combat tactics of spamming the same ability every turn, and having fewer Short Rests and combat rounds means that a highly sustainable class (like a Fighter) will have a hard time competing with a class that can expend high value resources in a short amount of time (Paladin, Sorcerer).


The roleplaying list is included to be a possible alternate consideration when determining your pacing for your campaign. A Warlock, for example, is a Short Rest/Multiple Encounter style of class and will likely fall behind if you only have 1-2 encounters per day. However, allowing the Warlock to invest heavily into roleplaying elements in between those fights will make the Warlock gain value out of his character, similar to how a Bard's contributions are mostly non-combat related. Similarly, a Fighter might not be the best choice in a one-shot boss fight, but it's still a likely better pick for a combat encounter than a Bard.

An example of a very bad mismatch is a RP/low combat campaign with a Fighter, or a dungeon crawl with a Druid or Bard.

[sithlordnergal]

1 Long Rest Per 3-4 Encounters

Anyone who restores things on a Long Rest will benefit greatly by this. You'll see a large boost to all the Full Casters, Paladins, and Barbarians. Monks and Fighters won't shine, but they also won't be completely over shadowed as long as they use their resources widely. The Warlock will become nothing more then an Eldritch Blast cannon.

Funnily enough, the Rogue and Ranger will mostly be unchanged outside of spell slots, while the Druid is perfectly fine.



1 Short Rest Per 3-4 Encounters

Monks and Fighters will be amazing, and those who play them will be able to spend resources without any concern what so ever. Warlocks on the other hand, will finally reach the strength of a Monk or Fighter when using the standard 6-8 encounters.

Outside of that, most classes will be crippled. The only exceptions are Bards at level 6, Moon Druids, Rangers, and Rogues. As an aside, the Coffeelock will love this set up.



No Rests

Rogues and Rangers will be king here, as long as they can avoid exhaustion. Surprisingly enough, I can actually see Warlocks doing amazingly well with this, provided they take the proper invocations and buff Eldrtich Blast properly. Outside of that, Fighters and Monks will be ok, thanks things like the Fighter having a ton of attacks in a round and the Monk having their movement speed and a bonus action attack that's always available.

Full Casters, Barbarians, and Paladins become crippled to the point of being unplayable.



How many encounters do you run between rests? What team compositions do you think would be the most heavily impacted by moving that variable around? If you found yourself facing down a No Rests campaign, how would that affect your teambuilding process?


- I tend to use the standard encounters per rest from Xanathar's, and fit in about 2 Short Rests per Long Rest. I do this by controlling when the party is able to gain the benefits of a rest, and I tell them this up front. It helps keep the game balanced for every class except for the Warlock, who tends to fall behind until they get their 3rd spell slot. It also allows me to actually drain the party resources, which allows me to actually challenge my players. The only down side is that sometimes we will go several sessions between a Long Rest, but that's not really a major problem.

- Ehhh, it depends on how much you change things. You'll see people gravitate to Short or Long Rest classes depending on how you do rests. Funnily enough, there are a few classes and subclasses that don't really care. Rogues and Rangers will be just as effective, or ineffective in the case of the Ranger, no matter how many rests you give. Meanwhile the Bard and Moon Druid have powerful Short Rest and Long Rest abilities, so they are playable no matter what you do with the rests as long as you get some sort of rest.

- If I found myself facing a No Rests campaign, I'd do several things. First, I'd go either Rogue or Warlock, because those are the two classes that can shine the most with no rests. Second, I'd take the Healer Feat, because its the only way to be brought back up if someone is K.O.'d. Outside of that, I'd look for a team that can last as long as possible with no resources. Monks and Fighters could be potential choices, Fighters are especially good if you start with or get 3 attacks per round.