Bard Idea: LyTh, SuC, SoS?

[ChaosStar]

My dad is joining my game group and is making a Gnome Bard. I was looking through https://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook/#prestige-classes to see what Prestige classes were good and struck upon an idea. Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 2/Seeker of the Song 8. I've been looking at old threads on the site and people seem mixed in regards as to whether Seeker of the Song is good or whether going Sublime Chord 10 is smart. Can I get the Playground's input on this? Dad already has Inspirational Boost and doesn't qualify for Words of Creation. The other party members(currently at level 4) are me(Crusader 1/Paladin of Freedom 2/ Fighter 1), a Half-Dragon Fighter(Fighter 4), and two GMPCs(a Cleric of Dionysus and a Rogue.)

[ezekielraiden]

My dad is joining my game group and is making a Gnome Bard. I was looking through https://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook/#prestige-classes to see what Prestige classes were good and struck upon an idea. Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 2/Seeker of the Song 8. I've been looking at old threads on the site and people seem mixed in regards as to whether Seeker of the Song is good or whether going Sublime Chord 10 is smart. Can I get the Playground's input on this? Dad already has Inspirational Boost and doesn't qualify for Words of Creation. The other party members(currently at level 4) are me(Crusader 1/Paladin of Freedom 2/ Fighter 1), a Half-Dragon Fighter(Fighter 4), and two GMPCs(a Cleric of Dionysus and a Rogue.)

The pairing seems...contradictory to me. Why go for Lyric Thaumaturge and Sublime Chord--which sacrifice other Bard things and some feats in order to have better spellcasting--and then take Seeker of the Song, which doesn't advance casting at all? Seems like a pretty big waste. Unless you simply didn't notice that SotS doesn't advance casting, of course, though Joshua D's guide does explicitly note it IIRC.

[MisterKaws]

Like said above, the build is contradicting. If you're going to go Sublime Chord but still want Bardic Music, do Bard 7/Virtuoso 1/Bard +2/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso +9, with Virtuoso advancing Sublime Chord. It's a standard build for Bards who want a bit more mileage from their casting without dropping their schtick completely, but it works fairly well.

It's also very easy to qualify even mid-game. You just need to dedicate the next few levels' worth of skill points into the requirements.

[ChaosStar]

Like said above, the build is contradicting. If you're going to go Sublime Chord but still want Bardic Music, do Bard 7/Virtuoso 1/Bard +2/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso +9, with Virtuoso advancing Sublime Chord. It's a standard build for Bards who want a bit more mileage from their casting without dropping their schtick completely, but it works fairly well.

It's also very easy to qualify even mid-game. You just need to dedicate the next few levels' worth of skill points into the requirements.

Virtuoso's Music sucks. Seeker has the best Music, and the build doesn't want more from Sublime. The Goal of the build is to have decent 5ths and amazing Music.

[MisterKaws]

Virtuoso's Music sucks. Seeker has the best Music, and the build doesn't want more from Sublime. The Goal of the build is to have decent 5ths and amazing Music.

2/day and no Bard spells? Might as well ditch it. Bard spells are useful at high levels because they get the coolest toys at early levels(lot of bard 6ths are 8ths otherwise). You ditching Bard spells to get some 5th-level spells isn't very useful. Just ditch Bard casting at once if you want to get music.

And to be honest, Seeker of the Song is weak as hell. Resist Energy is a second level spell with a 10min/CL duration. Delay Poison is hours/CL. Hymn of Spelldeath is cool, but at that level any enemy caster is going to have Mind Blank. Banishment at level 20 is cute, but it's level 20. Clerics have been doing that trick for 9 levels now. And don't even get me started on 10d6 damage spells. Casters can metamagick Fire Orbs' dice count into the 40s easily.

If you want an actually good bardic class, look up War Chanter instead. It focuses on stuff that no other class can get. Dip two levels into Seeker of the Song for Combine Songs and then get out and back to War Chanter.

[ChaosStar]

2/day and no Bard spells? Might as well ditch it. Bard spells are useful at high levels because they get the coolest toys at early levels(lot of bard 6ths are 8ths otherwise). You ditching Bard spells to get some 5th-level spells isn't very useful. Just ditch Bard casting at once if you want to get music.

And to be honest, Seeker of the Song is weak as hell. Resist Energy is a second level spell with a 10min/CL duration. Delay Poison is hours/CL. Hymn of Spelldeath is cool, but at that level any enemy caster is going to have Mind Blank. Banishment at level 20 is cute, but it's level 20. Clerics have been doing that trick for 9 levels now. And don't even get me started on 10d6 damage spells. Casters can metamagick Fire Orbs' dice count into the 40s easily.

If you want an actually good bardic class, look up War Chanter instead. It focuses on stuff that no other class can get. Dip two levels into Seeker of the Song for Combine Songs and then get out and back to War Chanter.

Okay, it's obvious you hate Seeker of the Song for no reason. What hurts spells the most? Spell Resistance. What do Seeker Songs bypass? Spell Resistance. The 5ths from Sublime Chord can be Bard spells or Wiz/Sorc spells as well you know. The character would never get the Banishment and that ability sucks. The big part of Seeker of the Song is Hymn of Spelldeath and the refrains, not the energy resistance. And the Spellcaster would have to actually succeed in casting Mind Blank first, and really would a spellcaster have max ranks in Concentration?

I've looked at War Chanter and it has a feat tax of 2 feats instead of the Seeker's 1. Also, the War Chanter's only good song would be Singing Shout, which would be useless since its an enhancement bonus and the front liners would already have Belts of Giant's Strength by then.

Metamagics suck since they take higher level slots than normal, and for spontaneous casters, like Bards, it takes longer to cast.

[MisterKaws]

Okay, it's obvious you hate Seeker of the Song for no reason. What hurts spells the most? Spell Resistance. What do Seeker Songs bypass? Spell Resistance.

Orb spells bypass Spell Resistance AND Antimagic Fields.


The 5ths from Sublime Chord can be Bard spells or Wiz/Sorc spells as well you know. The character would never get the Banishment and that ability sucks.

Okay, I missed the "and bard" portion.


The big part of Seeker of the Song is Hymn of Spelldeath and the refrains, not the energy resistance. And the Spellcaster would have to actually succeed in casting Mind Blank first, and really would a spellcaster have max ranks in Concentration?

Except Mind Blank lasts 24 hours and any caster is going to treat casting it the same as brushing his teeth in the morning.


I've looked at War Chanter and it has a feat tax of 2 feats instead of the Seeker's 1. Also, the War Chanter's only good song would be Singing Shout, which would be useless since its an enhancement bonus and the front liners would already have Belts of Giant's Strength by then.

Metamagics suck since they take higher level slots than normal, and for spontaneous casters, like Bards, it takes longer to cast.

I'm talking about what's more effective, and metamagicked orbs are the best for damage. Also Rapid Metamagic is a thing.

Basically, Seeker of the Song is beaten by two level 2 spells, a couple orbs(even without metamagic they do the same damage) and Mind Blank. That's the best Bardic Music class? It looks like a toddler trying to boast when compared to Dirgesinger. Only reason I don't recommend it instead of War Chanter is because it's an evil class(cause undead are eeeeeeevuhl), and playing that as a newbie(your dad) might not be a good idea.

My suggestions stand: either Sublime Chord/Virtuoso, which get far better magic, or Bard/War Chanter, which at least can see some use other than "hey, let me cast an overpriced second-level spell with crap duration".

As a side note, there's also the Jester base class, which gets to do the same useless not-Antimagic Field one level earlier, at 15. Still overcome by a single 24 hour spell.