How often do you use cantrips with the wrong spellcasting ability score?

[Greywander]

There's a couple of ways you can end up with a cantrip that uses a different spellcasting ability score from your main class, from multiclassing, to Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper, or even racial spells. In particular, I was thinking about a cleric 1 / wizard X build. There's just so many good utility cantrips on the wizard list, while the cleric list is rather bare. Would it be worth it to grab a cleric cantrip for damage so you can get more wizard utility cantrips? How much Wisdom would you want to make it viable?

I can think of a couple of other scenarios. I've got a soft spot for Produce Flame, as it acts as both a light cantrip and a damage cantrip, although it doesn't do either as well as Light and Fire Bolt. Eldritch Blast is also a popular one, although if you're not a warlock with Agonizing Blast I don't think it's really that much better than other wizard damage cantrips.

In any case, let's say you're in a position where you're able to grab some extra cantrips that use a different ability score from your main one. How high would you want that ability score if you were considering a damage cantrip? Or would you stick exclusively to utility cantrips where your ability score doesn't matter? More generally, have you ever found yourself in a similar position, but with a leveled spell?

[Innocent_bystan]

How often would I be using that cantrip? If it's my main mode of sustainable damage, then I want it keyed to my main ability. If it's a fallback for either range, damage type or rider effect, then it doesn't matter all that much.
To multiclass, you need a 13 ability score. That will probably be a 14 in practice. For a backup option, that's more than enough.

That said, I have played a bard with a single level in arcana cleric to get access to wizard cantrips. I didn't choose any of the direct damage cantrips. I took the 2 blade cantrips from SCAG where the ability score doesn't matter as much and 3 utility cantrips from the cleric list.

So in your case you could do the same: 1 level of arcana cleric gets you 5 cantrips, 2 of which can come from the wizard list. Get the utility ones in that way and the damage ones through your wizard class.

[Kyutaru]

Unlike past editions, min-maxing isn't as critical here. Even for damaging spells, the saving throw is more about luck than stacking Reflex. Where previously you wanted every point you could find because otherwise you would have a 95% chance of failure, in 5th edition there's usually a good chance regardless of your ability scores. You could be highly unoptimized and still pull off good effects.

[Greywander]

It's true that optimization isn't required to be functional in this edition. By my rough estimates, if your highest ability score is a 16, you can still have a perfectly functional character. That said, from some number crunching I've done, each +1 becomes stronger the higher you stats get. The basic d20 mechanic makes minmaxing more optimal than spreading your stats out.

Here's a sort of follow-up question: Let's say you're looking at building a melee wizard (probably War Magic or Abjuration). Would you rather have Word of Radiance (which allows you to exclude allies, but requires sight) with the lower Wisdom, or Thunderclap (can't exclude allies, doesn't require sight)? Being able to exclude your allies from the blast seems like it would be important for a melee character, but if the best WIS you can manage is 14, then that extra +3 to the save DC makes Thunderclap look quite a bit stronger. Plus, sometimes you're fighting enemies you can't see.

[Fable Wright]

Here's a sort of follow-up question: Let's say you're looking at building a melee wizard (probably War Magic or Abjuration). Would you rather have Word of Radiance (which allows you to exclude allies, but requires sight) with the lower Wisdom, or Thunderclap (can't exclude allies, doesn't require sight)? Being able to exclude your allies from the blast seems like it would be important for a melee character, but if the best WIS you can manage is 14, then that extra +3 to the save DC makes Thunderclap look quite a bit stronger. Plus, sometimes you're fighting enemies you can't see.

I'd rather get Acid Splash, even in melee. I've never had my Fighter surrounded by more than 2-3 enemies despite being a grapple-lockdown build, and most of the time Acid Splash is going to get the job done. Plus it's not useless at range, and most crucially, it's not a Con save. Dex is the safest physical ability score to target, and Con is the absolute worst.

[Mercurias]

Typically if I have a multiclass Caster character where one stat is significantly lower than the other, I’ll make use of the class with the lower casting stat’s cantrip list for things like Mending, Prestidigitation, Dancing Lights, Guidance, and/or Mage Hand. Since they don’t really require any stats to be at max effectiveness, I can use the class with the lower casting stat for that and put the combat cantrips on the class with the higher stat.

As an aside, the SCAG melee cantrips are still good choices even if you get them from a class with 13 in the casting stat. They rely on your melee attacks for their hit rather than their own casting attribute, so if you’re playing a melee Cleric then dipping a level into Sorcerer can be a pretty solid plan for buffing your damage and getting access to the Shield Spell.

[Mercurias]

Here's a sort of follow-up question: Let's say you're looking at building a melee wizard (probably War Magic or Abjuration). Would you rather have Word of Radiance (which allows you to exclude allies, but requires sight) with the lower Wisdom, or Thunderclap (can't exclude allies, doesn't require sight)? Being able to exclude your allies from the blast seems like it would be important for a melee character, but if the best WIS you can manage is 14, then that extra +3 to the save DC makes Thunderclap look quite a bit stronger. Plus, sometimes you're fighting enemies you can't see.

I would say Thunderclap. Both spells already have a Con safe, which is a bit hard to make land in the first place because of how many enemies have high Con scores. No need to shoot the spell in the foot by making it have a low casting stat on top of it.

You may prefer Sword Burst over Thunderclap. It’s basically Thunderclap that targets Dex, deals Force Damage, and doesn’t make an incredibly loud noise when you cast it.

[Tanarii]

It's true that optimization isn't required to be functional in this edition. By my rough estimates, if your highest ability score is a 16, you can still have a perfectly functional character. Starting characters are perfectly functional through T2 with a 14 if a player likes. The game math 'expects' a 16 up to about level 10, then 'expects' a 18 after that.

I haven't ran or played much T3 or any T4. But an off-cantrip using a 12-13 would definitely be sporadically useable in T1 or T2, when you feel like gambling a bit more on the dice.

Of course, if it's a save cantrip and you know your enemy is weak against that save, or if it's an attack roll cantrip you only use on lower AC targets (brutes or whatever), that'll help too.

[Kyutaru]

It's true that optimization isn't required to be functional in this edition. By my rough estimates, if your highest ability score is a 16, you can still have a perfectly functional character. That said, from some number crunching I've done, each +1 becomes stronger the higher you stats get. The basic d20 mechanic makes minmaxing more optimal than spreading your stats out.

Here's a sort of follow-up question: Let's say you're looking at building a melee wizard (probably War Magic or Abjuration). Would you rather have Word of Radiance (which allows you to exclude allies, but requires sight) with the lower Wisdom, or Thunderclap (can't exclude allies, doesn't require sight)? Being able to exclude your allies from the blast seems like it would be important for a melee character, but if the best WIS you can manage is 14, then that extra +3 to the save DC makes Thunderclap look quite a bit stronger. Plus, sometimes you're fighting enemies you can't see.

If you can't exclude allies, having a higher DC might also be worse. It's easy to target enemies using their weak saves if you have a variety of attacks. Even using a weaker stat might be worth it if you are targeting a different enemy attribute. The lower Wisdom is made up for by the weaker saving throw.

[Âmesang]

Ever arcane caster I've played as so far has started with or eventually obtained runefinger, a "sorcerer/wizard cantrip" that was originally a 1st-level AD&D spell — granted, all it does is make a finger glow and let you use that finger to trace movements in the air or on a surface and make those movements glow (choosing which ones do and which ones don't), so the particular ability score doesn't matter.

EDIT: I suppose I should specify that one of the aforementioned characters was a variant half-elf bard (Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide) who got to start the game with a free wizard cantrip, hence runefinger.

[Chaelos]

There's a couple of ways you can end up with a cantrip that uses a different spellcasting ability score from your main class, from multiclassing, to Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper, or even racial spells. In particular, I was thinking about a cleric 1 / wizard X build. There's just so many good utility cantrips on the wizard list, while the cleric list is rather bare. Would it be worth it to grab a cleric cantrip for damage so you can get more wizard utility cantrips? How much Wisdom would you want to make it viable?

I can think of a couple of other scenarios. I've got a soft spot for Produce Flame, as it acts as both a light cantrip and a damage cantrip, although it doesn't do either as well as Light and Fire Bolt. Eldritch Blast is also a popular one, although if you're not a warlock with Agonizing Blast I don't think it's really that much better than other wizard damage cantrips.

In any case, let's say you're in a position where you're able to grab some extra cantrips that use a different ability score from your main one. How high would you want that ability score if you were considering a damage cantrip? Or would you stick exclusively to utility cantrips where your ability score doesn't matter? More generally, have you ever found yourself in a similar position, but with a leveled spell?

Knowledge Cleric 1/Wizard X is an absolute classic build, but you really don't need more than two damaging cantrips IMO. Pick three utility cantrips from the Cleric side (Thaumaturgy and Guidance are wonderful) and then stick with Wizard for your damaging cantrips (Toll the Dead for raw damage, Firebolt for reliable damage, Shocking Grasp for reaction-depriving goodness). Out of the eight cantrips you'll get with this build, I wouldn't have more than two doing damage.

The same guidance goes for leveled spells. For example, with the also-classic Evoker Wizard 2/Sorcerer X build, I would have the Evoker always prepare non-stat-dependent gems like Shield and Absorb Elements, along with some utility spells that don't rely on your INT. There's no reason to hobble yourself when you get plenty of damage spells from your primary class.

[Tanarii]

It's easy to target enemies using their weak saves if you have a variety of attacks. Even using a weaker stat might be worth it if you are targeting a different enemy attribute. The lower Wisdom is made up for by the weaker saving throw.
I said the same thing, but to be fair, this is fairly hard to do. Unless you normally DM and/or have perused the MM at great length. Or you have a DM that gives away monster stats for free with a "knowledge" check.

[bid]

That said, from some number crunching I've done, each +1 becomes stronger the higher you stats get.
I think it's the opposite.

Going from 10/20 to 11/20 is a 10% increase, while 11/20 to 12/20 is a 9% increase. Even adding the extra damage:
- (11x + 11) / 10x = 1.1 + 1.1 / x
- (12x + 23) / (11x + 11) = 1.09 + 1/(x+1) = 1.09 + 1.1 / (1.1x + 1.1)
Which shows a clear decrease since (1.1x + 1.1) is grater than x.

I'm not sure what you are evaluating other than DPR though.

[Greywander]

I'd rather get Acid Splash, even in melee. I've never had my Fighter surrounded by more than 2-3 enemies despite being a grapple-lockdown build, and most of the time Acid Splash is going to get the job done. Plus it's not useless at range, and most crucially, it's not a Con save. Dex is the safest physical ability score to target, and Con is the absolute worst.

I would say Thunderclap. Both spells already have a Con safe, which is a bit hard to make land in the first place because of how many enemies have high Con scores. No need to shoot the spell in the foot by making it have a low casting stat on top of it.

You may prefer Sword Burst over Thunderclap. It’s basically Thunderclap that targets Dex, deals Force Damage, and doesn’t make an incredibly loud noise when you cast it.
That's a good point on Acid Splash. I haven't had enough play experience to get a good idea of how often you'll be in melee with more than two enemies at a time. But I expect it won't be all that often, even if you go out of your way to put yourself in such a situation.

As far as DEX saves vs. CON saves, in most cases you'd be correct; a lot of monsters tend to have high CON. But think about what kinds of enemies tend to form swarms, the exact sort of situation you'd want an AoE spell like Thunderclap. These are usually small and fast enemies, typical of a "zerg rush". Those enemies tend to have better DEX than CON, as they use DEX for damage and compensate for poor defense with sheer numbers. Acid Splash + Thunderclap is probably the better option then, as you can use Acid Splash when (a) you need to exclude allies, or (b) you need a DEX save, and Thunderclap in all other cases.

Also for Thunderclap, while I'm not big on Evokers (I tend to prefer utility over blasting), Thunderclap is particularly effective with an Evoker. You get to add your INT mod to the damage (against all targets instead of just one, unlike e.g. the Celestial warlock), and you still do half damage on a successful save. You'll eventually get to the point where weak enemies like goblins will get destroyed in one blast, regardless of whether they pass or fail the save. Good if you ever find yourself having to fight 100 gobbos at once and you're all out of Fireballs.


It's easy to target enemies using their weak saves if you have a variety of attacks

you really don't need more than two damaging cantrips IMO.
Yeah, one or two damage cantrips will probably be "good enough", and if it isn't you can always fall back onto leveled spells. But as Kyutaru said, it can be nice to have some variety for targeting an enemy's weak point. Based on a quick analysis, here's a short run down of what seems to be the best wizard cantrip for each category:

Best Attack Cantrip - Chill Touch, respectable damage, rarely resisted damage type, and you'll be extremely grateful on the rare occasions that enemy healing comes up.
Best DEX Save Cantrip - Acid Splash, acid damage is a good type, can hit two targets, doesn't require you to see the target. No riders, unfortunately.
Best CON Save Cantrip - Frostbite, it's a crappier version of Vicious Mockery, but still a pretty good support cantrip.
Best WIS Save Cantrip - Toll the Dead, damage is solid, and rarely resisted. No riders, unfortunately.
Best Melee Cantrip - Shocking Grasp, advantage against targets in metal armor, and removes the target's reaction. Can be cast at range through a familiar.
Best AoE Cantrip - Thunderclap, solid damage type, good against swarms, just wish it could exclude allies. Clerics do this better with Word of Radiance.

And that's six cantrips, if we want to cover every category, more than a wizard normally even gets. We can trim this down to two, though. A monster with good AC is likely to also have either good DEX saves (light armor) or CON saves (heavy armor), but probably poorer WIS saves. Spellcasters typically have good WIS and CON saves, but poor AC and DEX saves. So, the best choice would probably be an attack or DEX save and a WIS save, so maybe Acid Splash and Toll the Dead. Acid Splash also doubles as an "AoE-lite", and either one can be used in melee without penalties. Off the top of my head, incorporeal undead like ghosts and banshees are resistant/immune to acid and necrotic, but otherwise you're unlikely to find monsters that resist both.

Still, it can be nice to have other options. Also, I would probably be using a cantrip as much or more for its rider effect than for damage, so cantrips without riders aren't as appealing. This is why I prefer Chill Touch over Fire Bolt, though either is solid.


I think it's the opposite.

Going from 10/20 to 11/20 is a 10% increase, while 11/20 to 12/20 is a 9% increase. Even adding the extra damage:
- (11x + 11) / 10x = 1.1 + 1.1 / x
- (12x + 23) / (11x + 11) = 1.09 + 1/(x+1) = 1.09 + 1.1 / (1.1x + 1.1)
Which shows a clear decrease since (1.1x + 1.1) is grater than x.

I'm not sure what you are evaluating other than DPR though.
Hmm, it could be because I was looking at defense at the time, rather than offense. If an enemy hits you on an 11 or higher, then +1 AC means you take 10% fewer hits. If they only hit on a 19 or 20, then +1 AC means you take 50% fewer hits. Likewise for saving throws.

I'd think offensively it would be the same, since +1 to your attack roll or spell save DC is equivalent to a -1 to their AC or saving throw. But... yeah, that would be backwards, then. When you hit only on a 20, then +1 to your attack roll means hitting 100% more often (twice as often), whereas if you hit on an 11 or higher, then +1 to your attack roll is only hitting 10% more often. So yeah, you're right. For offense, each +1 is more valuable when your stats are low, while for defense it's more valuable when your stats are high.

That said, if what we're evaluating is reliability, i.e. how often we miss rather than how often we hit, then higher stats make us miss proportionally less often for each +1 than lower stats do. Numerically, hit rate would seem to be more important than miss rate, but if your strategy depends on getting a spell to connect it might be worth it to minimize your miss rate as much as possible. It's not typically a big deal if you miss with, say, Fire Bolt, but a Hold Person that works 90% of the time means that the other 10% of the time you're crapping your pants, as your strategy probably was dependent on it working. There's probably room for a much more in depth analysis of this topic.

[bid]

Hmm, it could be because I was looking at defense at the time, rather than offense. If an enemy hits you on an 11 or higher, then +1 AC means you take 10% fewer hits. If they only hit on a 19 or 20, then +1 AC means you take 50% fewer hits. Likewise for saving throws.
Yes, consecutive +1 to AC and DC give more and more. I see what you were thinking.
Needing 20 to save is twice as good as needing 19 to save.