Could destroyed construct be revived?

[ayvango]

Normal resurrection has restriction on what creatures it could bring back. True resurrection relax restrictions for elementals and outsiders. Revive undead spell specifically brings destroyed undead back to life. I couldn't find such spell for constructs.

Wish says "Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell". Does that implies the same restrictions as resurrection spell?

Miracle lacking detail "Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting". How many allies? What type? Could it bring back destroyed construct?

[unseenmage]

Pathfinder's Memeory of Function spell does just this very thing.

For 3.x though you'll have to extrapolate and homebrew likely using the spells that revive undead and outsider respectively.

Alternatively, normal Make Whole should repair an unchanged Construct body after which it could simply be enchanted. It's not Ressurection but it's as close as 3.x let's us get without homebrew.

[HouseRules]

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous.

Emphasize where there are House-Rules that are required by RAW.

[Biggus]

Miracle contains the phrase "have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects", the above effects including "duplicate any Cleric spell of 8th level or lower". Since Resurrection is a 7th-level Cleric spell, it should be able to produce an equivalent effect for constructs, although the DM might rule they lose 1HD to simulate the level loss of Resurrection.

[unseenmage]

One could also use the new spell research guidelines in much the same way it is suggested the miracle spell be used above.

Or to research a custom spell version of Pathfinder's Memory of Function.

[Necroticplague]

Depends on what you mean by 'revived'. The physical shell can be made to get up and moving again, but the original animating force has already dissipated into nothing (as opposed to souls, which stay whole for considerable time post-mortem). For mindless constructs, there isn't much distinction, but it makes a world of difference to sapient ones.

[ayvango]

Depends on what you mean by 'revived'.
Bring half-golem character back to operation.

[ShurikVch]

It's, likely, already too late for it, but - if it could be applied in time - the Rebuild Item utterance

[Psyren]

One could also use the new spell research guidelines in much the same way it is suggested the miracle spell be used above.

Or to research a custom spell version of Pathfinder's Memory of Function.

In addition, since Memory of Function has a spell level (Clr7, Wiz/Sor7) this can be used to judge the power of its effect for duplicative things like Miracle and Wish.

[Mr Adventurer]

In addition, since Memory of Function has a spell level (Clr7, Wiz/Sor7) this can be used to judge the power of its effect for duplicative things like Miracle and Wish.

This feels like a weird thing to say, because it's a Pathfinder spell and if you're playing Pathfinder you can just cast the spell.

If you're playing 3.5, then what Pathfinder spells are out there is completely irrelevant.

[Psyren]

This feels like a weird thing to say, because it's a Pathfinder spell and if you're playing Pathfinder you can just cast the spell.

If you're playing 3.5, then what Pathfinder spells are out there is completely irrelevant.

Not completely. The thing about Wish and Miracle is that they're all about "what can I convince the GM is a safe use." Even if this spell is from PF and not 3.5, the fact that it is 7th level there might be enough for you to convince your GM that "restoring a destroyed construct is within the safe bounds of the spell, please don't twist this."

This is even more useful for Limited Wish - point to any 5th-level or lower PF spell that doesn't exist in 3.5 and see if you get leeway.

[Diarmuid]

At the very least, it's a frame of reference for the approximate power level of what's being asked for. The vast majority of spells that exist in both 3.5 and PF are the same level, and in most cases, almost exactly the same spell.

Using PF as a gauge seems more than reasonable.


EDIT - Ninja'd

[Mr Adventurer]

Okay, that's a fair enough thing to say - but it's substantially different from the original claim, which assumed any DM would take such material into account. At my tables, Pathfinder may as well not exist, and the range of changes and tweaks to the game, including a number of tweaks to spells, as we understand it, mean than an "argument from Pathfinder" isn't going to be persuasive.

[Psyren]

Okay, that's a fair enough thing to say - but it's substantially different from the original claim, which assumed any DM would take such material into account. At my tables, Pathfinder may as well not exist, and the range of changes and tweaks to the game, including a number of tweaks to spells, as we understand it, mean than an "argument from Pathfinder" isn't going to be persuasive.

Right, that's completely fair - Wish and Miracle adjudication are absolutely areas where I would go in expecting table variation. For me personally, a bunch of professional designers (many of whom are in the same orbit as 3.5 designers if not having been in those shoes themselves) pegging a spell at level X is persuasive - at the very least I view it as being better than nothing, and so I would be unlikely to twist that Wish or deny that miracle out of hand.

[Mr Adventurer]

Cool, sure. For us though, that the same designers made it doesn't mean too much when they're different games, with different assumptions and different design rules - which you can see in the changes that were made to spells... YMMV (and in this case does!)

[MisterKaws]

Bring half-golem character back to operation.

A Half-Golem who passes the check is still a living character. For a Half-Golem who misses the check, the Elemental in the golem body has taken possession of the body, this it would be no longer their own.

It could be said that you could cast a Reincarnate on the remains, and then cast a Wish to return the creature to their pre-grafting state for another attempt.

[noob]

Depends on what you mean by 'revived'. The physical shell can be made to get up and moving again, but the original animating force has already dissipated into nothing (as opposed to souls, which stay whole for considerable time post-mortem). For mindless constructs, there isn't much distinction, but it makes a world of difference to sapient ones.

In pathfinder constructs souls have a specific value in gold coins.
In 3.5 you can cast the spell trap the soul on constructs.
so maybe they have a soul.

[GrayDeath]

Mister Kaws has it right for the specific case.

Otherwise, in our groups, half Constructs like Warforged and similar, are treated as normally ressurrectable but not reincarnatable, as they were not born and hence cannot be reborn.
Just saying.

[MisterKaws]

In pathfinder constructs souls have a specific value in gold coins.
In 3.5 you can cast the spell trap the soul on constructs.
so maybe they have a soul.

Their soul is the bound elemental. In the case of a half-golem, you need to make a saving throw to avoid losing control over your body to the elemental in the body parts. If you lose, the body isn't yours, although it could still count as yours for Reincarnate.

[Psyren]

Cool, sure. For us though, that the same designers made it doesn't mean too much when they're different games, with different assumptions and different design rules - which you can see in the changes that were made to spells... YMMV (and in this case does!)

I don't think any of the changes that were made to spells really affected their level though (as Diarmuid mentioned). Glitterdust got nerfed for example but still feels like a 2nd-level effect. And of course, many spells weren't changed between editions/games at all. Regardless, I won't derail further.


Bring half-golem character back to operation.

Fluffwise, Half-Golem is intended for people who can't afford something like a Resurrect or Regen that restores lost extremities. Seems to me if they can't afford that, something like Wish/Miracle/TR would be right out the window. Even if you do revive them as a construct though, they'll just come back evil and hating flesh like before, whereas if they were good it means they weren't a construct at all (and thus all the regular means of revival should work.)

[noob]

Their soul is the bound elemental. In the case of a half-golem, you need to make a saving throw to avoid losing control over your body to the elemental in the body parts. If you lose, the body isn't yours, although it could still count as yours for Reincarnate.

it is a bound elemental for golems and golem likes but not for stuff like like the homunculus or the animated guardian.

[unseenmage]

Resurrect the person bits if the half golem then just re-half-golem them.

It's actually more doable than resurrecting a proper Construct.

[Mr Adventurer]

I don't think any of the changes that were made to spells really affected their level though (as Diarmuid mentioned). Glitterdust got nerfed for example but still feels like a 2nd-level effect. And of course, many spells weren't changed between editions/games at all. Regardless, I won't derail further.


Agree it's a tangent and we aren't really arguing, but just for the sake of being clear for the peanut gallery: that's kind of my point. If spells changed for PF, but their spell level didn't, then my tables feel safe assuming that spell levels aren't especially comparable between games. Which is where we started out :).

[MisterKaws]

Resurrect the person bits if the half golem then just re-half-golem them.

It's actually more doable than resurrecting a proper Construct.

The problem is Half-Construct explicitly forbids the use of Resurrection and its variations.

[Psyren]

Agree it's a tangent and we aren't really arguing, but just for the sake of being clear for the peanut gallery: that's kind of my point. If spells changed for PF, but their spell level didn't, then my tables feel safe assuming that spell levels aren't especially comparable between games. Which is where we started out :).

Which goes back to my own point - spell levels are not specific micropoints of power but instead bands. It's possible for a spell to receive slight nerfs in PF (e.g. Glitterdust) or even slight buffs (such as Erase no longer failing on a natural 2 in PF) and still have the unchanged spell level feel appropriate for what the spell does.

[ayvango]

In addition, since Memory of Function has a spell level (Clr7, Wiz/Sor7) this can be used to judge the power of its effect for duplicative things like Miracle and Wish.
The spell that allows to restore spent charges? I will buy the ring of three wishes and use the last wish to cast Memory of Function.

This spell is definitely not compatible with 3.5 setting. Some mechanics in pathfinder apparently works in alien ways. You could not bring pathfinder spell to 3.5 table unmodified.

[ayvango]

For a Half-Golem who misses the check, the Elemental in the golem body has taken possession of the body, this it would be no longer their own.
Half-Golem is a construct. It may differs greatly with pre-halfgolem human. But he has personality and self. And that self is lost after destroying the half-golem. And that is what I'd like to bring back.


they'll just come back evil and hating flesh like before,
That is the intended target. Bring the half-golem NPC back, not the flesh donor.

[Psyren]

The spell that allows to restore spent charges? I will buy the ring of three wishes and use the last wish to cast Memory of Function.

This spell is definitely not compatible with 3.5 setting. Some mechanics in pathfinder apparently works in alien ways. You could not bring pathfinder spell to 3.5 table unmodified.

Not sure what point you're trying to make here. That Ring of Three Wishes is broken? Because we figured that out loooong before Pathfinder even existed. In 3.5 you can use your last wish in the ring to wish for a LE candle of invocation, use that to wish for another ring, rinse and repeat, all in core. You're not saying anything noteworthy about this spell, and you can just ban the ring anyway.