The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[Inevitability]

And the threads keep coming and they don't stop coming...

By now, the purpose of the threads should be clear: assign the many 3.5 monsters a balanced LA, or fix those suggested by WotC.

More information can be found in the archive (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518086-The-LA-assignment-archive&p=21798987).

[Inevitability]

Also, I am keeping voting for the intellect devourer open for a bit, because I felt like there was some confusion surrounding a potential asterisk. I should have considered this more when making my initial post.

To clarify: including an asterisk would mean completely removing the problematic ability (Body Thief), and then rating the monster as if it didn't have the offending ability. Advocating for a high LA and an asterisk will, at least in this specific case, almost always be inconsistent.


For the purpose of making it a bit easier to count the votes, please re-post them here.

[danielxcutter]

So... vote based on Intellect Devourers without the Body Theft ability, then slap a ginormous asterisk on it?

[MisterKaws]

So... vote based on Intellect Devourers without the Body Theft ability, then slap a ginormous asterisk on it?

Either slap a ginormous LA for the problematic ability or a ginormous asterisk, but in the Intellect Devourer's case it needs to be the asterisk, since a ginormous LA would make it a one-trick-chickenbrainpony.

By the way, I was sure the most voted title was the other...

At least use it on the VIII thread then.

[Blue Jay]

I still think Body Thief needs to be included in the LA, even if we want to assign it an asterisk (which we should). It's just not meaningful to rate a monster without the one ability that defines it. The phasm got an LA that included its unrestricted Alternate Form, so there's no reason why the intellect devourer can't also have an LA that includes Body Thief.

My vote remains at LA +1*.

Incidentally, I also advocate adding an asterisk to the phasm.

[Celestia]

For the purpose of making it a bit easier to count the votes, please re-post them here.
-0* Don't read this part.

[MisterKaws]

For the purpose of making it a bit easier to count the votes, please re-post them here.

Sorry, didn't see it. LA: -0*


I still think Body Thief needs to be included in the LA, even if we want to assign it an asterisk (which we should). It's just not meaningful to rate a monster without the one ability that defines it. The phasm got an LA that included its unrestricted Alternate Form, so there's no reason why the intellect devourer can't also have an LA that includes Body Thief.

My vote remains at LA +1*.

But that's how the other half-thousand monsters up to now were rated.


Incidentally, I also advocate adding an asterisk to the phasm.

At that high of a level, there's already Master Transmogrifist which does basically the same, so there's no need for an asterisk.

And the monster was already rated years ago, so no changing it now.

[Celestia]

I still think Body Thief needs to be included in the LA, even if we want to assign it an asterisk (which we should). It's just not meaningful to rate a monster without the one ability that defines it. The phasm got an LA that included its unrestricted Alternate Form, so there's no reason why the intellect devourer can't also have an LA that includes Body Thief.

My vote remains at LA +1*.

Incidentally, I also advocate adding an asterisk to the phasm.
"This is how the rating system works in this thread."

"Nah, I'm just going to ignore that."

Brilliant. sarcasticclap.png

[Zancloufer]

If we keep the body theft power LA+1 as it only works on small+ dying creatures. Also you don't gain any of their Su abilities or mental scores, or BaB, saves, skills, feats or anything related to it's HD count.

You could argue also you can't steal any creature with more HD than you but even then you only have one body you can choose at a time and it only lasts one week max.


Can someone show a solid PRACTICAL example as in how Body theft might be actually broken?

[Zaq]

Changing my vote to +1, no asterisk.

[MisterKaws]

If we keep the body theft power LA+1 as it only works on small+ dying creatures. Also you don't gain any of their Su abilities or mental scores, or BaB, saves, skills, feats or anything related to it's HD count.

You could argue also you can't steal any creature with more HD than you but even then you only have one body you can choose at a time and it only lasts one week max.


Can someone show a solid PRACTICAL example as in how Body theft might be actually broken?

Here's my post on the last thread explaining how it is absolutely broken:


I got home, so I can bicker argue about how broken Body Thief is.

I'll divide the wording a bit, so we can better understand it:


As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, the devourer can merge its form with that of a helpless or dead creature of Small size or larger. The devourer cannot merge its body with that of a creature immune to extra damage from critical hits.

That should mean it can merge with any helpless creature that is not immune to critical hits, yes? Good, let's go on:


When an intellect devourer completes its merging, it psionically consumes the brain of the victim (which kills it if it is not already dead). The devourer can exit the body at any time as a standard action, bursting the victim’s skull and resuming its normal form.

It kills the victim. No questions asked. I'll come back to this later. Continuing:


After consuming its victim’s brain, an intellect devourer can instead choose to animate the body for up to seven days as if it were the victim’s original brain. The devourer retains its hit points, saving throws, and mental ability scores, as well as its psi-like abilities. It assumes the physical qualities and ability scores of the victim, as if it had used polymorph to assume the victim’s form. As long as the intellect devourer occupies the body, it knows the languages spoken by the victim and very basic information about the victim’s identity and personality, but none of the victim’s specific memories or knowledge.

Now, here's the point. It doesn't mention it actually using Polymorph. It just says it assumes whatever physical abilities a Polymorph into said form would give. What does this mean? It means that whatever your party can kill, you can turn into for seven days.


And that's kind of a problem. Do you know why? Let me give you an example: Stormwrack page 142: Huge Monstrous Crab. It's a CR7 monster, meaning it's a monster you'll meet at CR7 in any common seaside adventure. We all know that crabs in D&D are categorically broken for their CR, and the only thing stopping players from abusing them themselves is their high HD. Well, body thiefs only cares that you beat it before. This means you get a seven-day period of being That Crab.

Barely any ECL 7 martial player can compete with That Crab on any aspects, and you can get to become it as long as your party can kill it once for you.

Oh, and remember when I said I'd come back to the second paragraph? Here's the thing: you can kill the goddamn Tarasque. As long as you can get a couple Allips(Dip Rogue 1 and grab UMD x9) to hit him a couple times(the Tarrasque still has a 50% chance of hitting them due to DR/Epic, so you need a couple of them), then he'll fall unconscious, and then you just use Body Thief. On the freaking Tarrasque. And that's a single level dip!

The ability needs a house-ruled limit to HD/level or just a rewrite.

[Efrate]

I will chime in at +1* again. If it has the ability the minimum should be level 7. If it does not and you still want to play one With it's defenses and all around solid stats I still think it's an ok +1. Non humanoid has issues maybe but I think it pulls it's weight at comparable ecl.

[ViperMagnum357]

Keeping my vote for the Intellect Devourer at LA +1, no asterisk. As I elucidated in the prior thread, I think the fairly narrow bounds of the ability allow it to be rated adequately. The DM will need to be a little careful about enormous melee bruisers with powerful (Ex) attacks and impressive natural attack routines; but eventually that becomes a concern anyway with Necromancy, Enchantment, Binding/Ally and diplomacy, so any DM should be able to adjust without serious issue. LA +1 keeps it par for full casters with polymorph, who do not need a steady supply of fresh corpses and have a whole repertoire of spells to supplement that one good trick.

Also not a fan of the thread title, the pun does not work.

[Zancloufer]

Alright, looking at a 6 HD Intellect Devourer possessing the 7 CR Giant monstrous crab vs boring 7 HD human Barbarian 32 PB with 17/14/16/10/10/7 stat line.

Barbarian: 7d12+21 HP (~69 avg) before gear/rage. 19 str and +7 BaB with a boring +2 Great Sword and no feats/rage has +14 to hit and deals 2d6+8 damage. Also have 8/6/2 saves before magic items and 17 AC with no magic items and some simple medium armour. Also +12 to grapple.

Intellect Devourer has 6d8+12 HP (38 avg). 25 str and +4 BaB and huge size means +9 to hit for 2d6+7 damage. Saves of 4/7/6 assuming you don't dump or bump Wisdom and AC 22 before magic items. +17 grapple is a bit dangerous though.

Overall, before feats/magic items (which would IMHO favour the Barbarian slightly) the Intellect Devourer has better AC/grapple but much worse AC and normal attacks. Not exactly overpowered. You can pretty much sub in as a beat-stick but you trade noticeable raw power for flexibility. Assuming you can get a solid source of usable bodies.

[MisterKaws]

Alright, looking at a 6 HD Intellect Devourer possessing the 7 CR Giant monstrous crab vs boring 7 HD human Barbarian 32 PB with 17/14/16/10/10/7 stat line.

Barbarian: 7d12+21 HP (~69 avg) before gear/rage. 19 str and +7 BaB with a boring +2 Great Sword and no feats/rage has +14 to hit and deals 2d6+8 damage. Also have 8/6/2 saves before magic items and 17 AC with no magic items and some simple medium armour. Also +12 to grapple.

Intellect Devourer has 6d8+12 HP (38 avg). 25 str and +4 BaB and huge size means +9 to hit for 2d6+7 damage. Saves of 4/7/6 assuming you don't dump or bump Wisdom and AC 22 before magic items. +17 grapple is a bit dangerous though.

Overall, before feats/magic items (which would IMHO favour the Barbarian slightly) the Intellect Devourer has better AC/grapple but much worse AC and normal attacks. Not exactly overpowered. You can pretty much sub in as a beat-stick but you trade noticeable raw power for flexibility. Assuming you can get a solid source of usable bodies.

You forgot the 4d6 constrict. And that's just one monster.

The inherent problem here is that it forbids DMs from using high HD bruisers, which are the most common type of foe. Since it is an effect similar to Polymorph, it can also pick Assume Supernatural Ability, and then it starts getting bad.

[Mike Miller]

I vote +1 for the intellect devourer. I understand the arguments for the asterisk, but I really don't think it is even close to the trouble of other monsters we've rated with an asterisk.

[Prime32]

One of the odder parts of Body Thief is that there doesn't seem to be a limit on how long the target's been dead, which could throw off DM plans involving graveyards. It does mean you could get around some of the limitations by carrying around a portable hole filled with dogs.

And for RAW silliness, it's possible to use spark of life to make an undead creature that's vulnerable to critical hits, but doesn't die when its brain is eaten.

[Thurbane]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDMVfFgykP8

[MrSandman]

Hi, this is my first time posting here, but I've been following these threads for a while and am a big fan of them. I'm also a big fan of this issue's name. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to vote, but here are my thoughts.

I've been reading the discussion and I'm not convinced about the asterisk. Honestly, the Body Thief thing seems more trouble than its worth. Unless you're devoting a big part of the campaign to body hunting, you shouldn't be able to find and use many crazy forms (and even then, they don't seem that out of the line anyway.) Regarding Assume Supernatural Ability, well, that's a problem of the feat, not of this monster.

So I would give this creature a LA +1

[Caelestion]

Body Thief will be used as much as the ID can get away with, but it is at least under the GM's control as to what appears. It's a problematic ability, but it's still worth at least LA +1.

[Falontani]

LA: +1 extra words for consumption

[Remuko]

Body Thief earns them one hell of a DM caution marker. And the 7 day time limit hurts because you constantly need too find new bodies, and once you leave a body, you can't use it again.

Also, since they have the Evil subtype, their actual alignment doesn't matter for their vulnerability to Protection From Evil.


Leaving out Body Thief ... I have to call them -0!
Sure, they have nifty stats and some nice qualities ... but they are massively dependent on body stealing to contribute, and have way too many RHD to go caster/manifester.

I agree with this.

-0

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm still thinking +0 for the intellect devourer.

[Dimers]

Keeping my vote for the Intellect Devourer at LA +1, no asterisk. As I elucidated in the prior thread, I think the fairly narrow bounds of the ability allow it to be rated adequately.

Ditto on both the LA +1 (no asterisk) and the reasoning.

[remetagross]

Reposting my previous judging: LA +1, no asterisk.

[lord_khaine]

Alright, looking at a 6 HD Intellect Devourer possessing the 7 CR Giant monstrous crab vs boring 7 HD human Barbarian 32 PB with 17/14/16/10/10/7 stat line.

Barbarian: 7d12+21 HP (~69 avg) before gear/rage. 19 str and +7 BaB with a boring +2 Great Sword and no feats/rage has +14 to hit and deals 2d6+8 damage. Also have 8/6/2 saves before magic items and 17 AC with no magic items and some simple medium armour. Also +12 to grapple.

Intellect Devourer has 6d8+12 HP (38 avg). 25 str and +4 BaB and huge size means +9 to hit for 2d6+7 damage. Saves of 4/7/6 assuming you don't dump or bump Wisdom and AC 22 before magic items. +17 grapple is a bit dangerous though.

Overall, before feats/magic items (which would IMHO favour the Barbarian slightly) the Intellect Devourer has better AC/grapple but much worse AC and normal attacks. Not exactly overpowered. You can pretty much sub in as a beat-stick but you trade noticeable raw power for flexibility. Assuming you can get a solid source of usable bodies.

The ID should have 6d8+30 HP, since it has a racial Con bonus.
And this comparison also neglegt that it has Blindsight, DR 10/adamantine, Power resistance, as well as a few useful psy-like abilities.
As well as that its a better target for mage armor.

[MesiDoomstalker]

+0* Its alright without literal body stealing

[OgresAreCute]

After revving up my brain and thinking about it a bit, I'll spring for +1.
Polymorph is strong, and so is Body Thief, but if you allow polymorph or similar effects this will probably be balanced with those. Also unlike polymorph, the DM can actually control what bodies you have access to and so can prevent some of the worst abuse. You also have some decent stat boosts and you automatically qualify for Metamorphic Transfer, and so I think this would be a fun and thematic shapeshifter to play. It wouldn't be any more disruptive than any other shapeshifting class or character (in fact, probably less).

[javcs]

The Intellect Devourer is a solid -0*.

It is massively dependent upon Body Thief to have a chance of regularly contributing, far less taking an regular and active role as a character.
Without Body Thief it could maybe slide as a minion (ie, Improved Familiar-esque), where the ability to communicate rests with the main character, not the minion.'


And Body Thief is a massive DM caution. Plus it's a pain in the ass as a player - you can only use each body once, and only for a maximum of 7 days. This isn't the kind of logistical issue that can be handwaved away (ie, a lot of DMs won't bother to track individual mundane arrows (or other low-value mundane consumables), but you can be sure as that the DM is going to keep a close eye on your body supply ... and the trail of corpses.

[Grey Guard]

Not a popular vote, but I'm going with +0. After being in two games where a player was a Psion, and another where he was an Ardent, both characters focused around Metamorphosis abuse, I just don't see bodysnatching as being that bad.

[MisterKaws]

Not a popular vote, but I'm going with +0. After being in two games where a player was a Psion, and another where he was an Ardent, both characters focused around Metamorphosis abuse, I just don't see bodysnatching as being that bad.

With a +0 you're giving them the same ability a level earlier, though, and with potentially stronger uses because of the lack of a limit.

[Lans]

I'm going with +0, it should be fine in the role of a rogue, with massive boost to its survivability with the body possesion on top of it.

[Grey Guard]

With a +0 you're giving them the same ability a level earlier, though, and with potentially stronger uses because of the lack of a limit.

While that may be true, you're paying for that with a bunch of Aberration HD, and you don't have a bunch of awesome powers to fall back on as well. The Ardent was terrifying because he could turn into whatever his Knowledge checks let him, as well as having full manifesting as back-up.

Simply stealing what I, as the DM, have all the power to control what he has access to doesn't sound too bad in the slightest, especially when that's the character's main schtick. Will that discourage me from using high HD beaters? Maybe, but I'm rating this assuming the DM knows what he's doing, and will prepare accordingly.

[lord_khaine]

Anyway, to repeat my vote is for +1 LA
I dont think less can do it. And thats still giving the gm a bit of additional work.

[MisterKaws]

While that may be true, you're paying for that with a bunch of Aberration HD, and you don't have a bunch of awesome powers to fall back on as well. The Ardent was terrifying because he could turn into whatever his Knowledge checks let him, as well as having full manifesting as back-up.

Simply stealing what I, as the DM, have all the power to control what he has access to doesn't sound too bad in the slightest, especially when that's the character's main schtick. Will that discourage me from using high HD beaters? Maybe, but I'm rating this assuming the DM knows what he's doing, and will prepare accordingly.

Still, that means it would warrant DM caution, doesn't it?

[Grey Guard]

Still, that means it would warrant DM caution, doesn't it?

About as much as someone playing a Wizard, Sorcerer, or Psion does, I would think. :smallbiggrin:

[Caelestion]

Not a popular vote, but I'm going with +0. After being in two games where a player was a Psion, and another where he was an Ardent, both characters focused around Metamorphosis abuse, I just don't see bodysnatching as being that bad.

So, because you've played with a Tier 1 character built to abuse metamorphosis, you think everyone with polymorphing abilities should do it?

[Grey Guard]

So, because you've played with a Tier 1 character built to abuse metamorphosis, you think everyone with polymorphing abilities should do it?

I'm not saying everyone should do it at all. I'm saying that given the caveats that the body theft ability has, it's different, but has some more manageable limitations. Besides, what would you define as "abuse" Metamorphosis? Because in my case, it was to simply use the power. Later on they took the feats that let them get abilities from a few forms (like Pyrohydra's Breath Weapon and War Troll's Dazing Blow :smalleek: ). Which is also available to the IE if they take those.

The IE doesn't have the same issue. They can do the same things, sure, but not if I, as a DM, never include a War Troll, for example, as an encounter. Or ever make them part of the world in general. Sure, it can take over the Tarrasque right out of the gate, but I have to provide the Tarrasque. And if I have a party that's beating the Tarrasque at that low of a level, I'm either overwhelmed as a DM by crazy powerful player characters, or the they're so powerful that the IE's powers are probably aligned with the rest of team, if maybe lacking a bit, anyway.

I just don't see why I'm penalizing the IE when the spellcasters can do the same thing- and arguably better, and still have other abilities as well.

I'm not saying you guys are incorrect in your own evaluations. 3.5 has shown me that some groups have wildly different ideas of what's powerful. It's why we have all different ideas on an LA and we vote, after all.

[MisterKaws]

I'm not saying everyone should do it at all. I'm saying that given the caveats that the body theft ability has, it's different, but has some more manageable limitations. Besides, what would you define as "abuse" Metamorphosis? Because in my case, it was to simply use the power. Later on they took the feats that let them get abilities from a few forms (like Pyrohydra's Breath Weapon and War Troll's Dazing Blow :smalleek: ). Which is also available to the IE if they take those.

The IE doesn't have the same issue. They can do the same things, sure, but not if I, as a DM, never include a War Troll, for example, as an encounter. Or ever make them part of the world in general. Sure, it can take over the Tarrasque right out of the gate, but I have to provide the Tarrasque. And if I have a party that's beating the Tarrasque at that low of a level, I'm either overwhelmed as a DM by crazy powerful player characters, or the they're so powerful that the IE's powers are probably aligned with the rest of team, if maybe lacking a bit, anyway.

I just don't see why I'm penalizing the IE when the spellcasters can do the same thing- and arguably better, and still have other abilities as well.

I'm not saying you guys are incorrect in your own evaluations. 3.5 has shown me that some groups have wildly different ideas of what's powerful. It's why we have all different ideas on an LA and we vote, after all.

Still, they can do the same thing an entire level early, and they can do it endlessly as long as you provide corpses. Vancian casters barely get to do it more than twice at level 7, though Psions do get to do it 7-8 times if they do nothing but spam Metamorphosis. Even so, you're going to have a problem on par with having a middle-grader on your table playing a CE Necromancer. For one, both would go around killing anyone they could get away with murdering, and keeping creepy corpse collections.

The ability just sounds like it needs a DM warning before being allowed.

[liquidformat]

So I am a bit confused how we are getting past the RHD restriction of Polymorph based on the text since it no where talks about hd which typically means there is no specific to trump general.
The text saying "It assumes the physical qualities and ability scores of the victim, as if it had used polymorph to assume the victim’s form." seems to cause issues with an uncapped hd limit as polymorph wouldn't allow you to take the form of a creature with more hd than you have...

Anyways I think +1 LA seems ok, the uncapped hd is balanced out by the fact that it is restricted to needing a corpse for the ability to function. Early on this is very DM dependent, for example if you are in an undead/caster/construct heavy campaign you are pretty SOL. Later on it becomes easier to use with planar binding and eventually gating but still is dependent on DM/ cooperating players. It also doesn't give unlimited polymorph it is in fact very limited polymorph based on what you can actually kill and what intact corpses you have on hand. So burning through multiple corpses each day becomes very risky as they are an important commodity for you to function as an ID.



I mean that, if you're comparing stat blocks to stat blocks and want to use a "properly" optimized human beatstick on the one end, you would need to build the monster side as a character as well. Point-buy ability scores, good feats, equipment, the whole shebang. A gray glutton built this way has as much resemblance to the one in the book as your barbarian chowder has to a straight barb20.
If you're just asserting "This monster's combat prowess is better/worse than an equivalent barbarian chowder's" without actually building both the monster and the chowder, then your arguments are all but worthless. With PC classes, features are more important than numbers...but a monster's features generally are their numbers, so you need to find the numbers before you judge them.


So I have been presenting builds with the assumption of 10s across the board, ignoring equipment (except pointing out missing slots), and feats (trying to point out important feats as they come up) since for the most part any feat/equipment one race can take another can too. What in your view is the benefit gained from using point buy rather than base 10, and fully fleshing out feats and equipment?

I am not seeing any particular advantage that is gained from going into this degree of detail.


Redo the non-bonus feats, then give three PC levels and compare a standard-race PC of that number of hit dice. Allow for the typical frontloaded features responsible for most PCs working, simple as that.


I am sorry but I am not seeing much of a difference between what you are asking for and what I had presented besides having 'default general' builds.

[MisterKaws]

So I am a bit confused how we are getting past the RHD restriction of Polymorph based on the text since it no where talks about hd which typically means there is no specific to trump general.
The text saying "It assumes the physical qualities and ability scores of the victim, as if it had used polymorph to assume the victim’s form." seems to cause issues with an uncapped hd limit as polymorph wouldn't allow you to take the form of a creature with more hd than you have...

Anyways I think +1 LA seems ok, the uncapped hd is balanced out by the fact that it is restricted to needing a corpse for the ability to function. Early on this is very DM dependent, for example if you are in an undead/caster/construct heavy campaign you are pretty SOL. Later on it becomes easier to use with planar binding and eventually gating but still is dependent on DM/ cooperating players. It also doesn't give unlimited polymorph it is in fact very limited polymorph based on what you can actually kill and what intact corpses you have on hand. So burning through multiple corpses each day becomes very risky as they are an important commodity for you to function as an ID.



So I have been presenting builds with the assumption of 10s across the board, ignoring equipment (except pointing out missing slots), and feats (trying to point out important feats as they come up) since for the most part any feat/equipment one race can take another can too. What in your view is the benefit gained from using point buy rather than base 10, and fully fleshing out feats and equipment?

I am not seeing any particular advantage that is gained from going into this degree of detail.



I am sorry but I am not seeing much of a difference between what you are asking for and what I had presented besides having 'default general' builds.

It says it grants the abilities "as Polymorph". Never does it says it has the same limitations as Polymorph. When that's the case, they bother to put "[...] this ability otherwise functions as Polymorph." in the end.

And yes, you need to build your example build with expected PC stuff: decent stat arrays(28-point should be good), WBL and feats, plus a few class levels into possibly synergistic classes, like Rogue for the Allip abuse into Tarrasque.

[liquidformat]

It says it grants the abilities "as Polymorph". Never does it says it has the same limitations as Polymorph. When that's the case, they bother to put "[...] this ability otherwise functions as Polymorph." in the end.

I have seen just as many people make the exact opposite argument with similarly worded abilities on GitP so this seems to be an area where RAW isn't specific. Most recently there was a long discussion about epic sense motives detect thoughts ability functioning against mind blank which has very similar wording.

Anyways I think the need for a corpse, the 1 week time frame, and the fact that you can't reuse corpses ends being enough of a balance to make this ability just fine with a +1 LA in actual game play. You are restricted to what is inside your game and how much your dm is allowing the party to abuse planar binding.


And yes, you need to build your example build with expected PC stuff: decent stat arrays(28-point should be good), WBL and feats, plus a few class levels into possibly synergistic classes, like Rogue for the Allip abuse into Tarrasque.

why do you need a point buy, WBL, and feats to compare two builds though? That is my question, what are we gaining from adding these things.

I would in fact say using point buy instead of straight 10s clouds the water because of the added variation it adds with adding IMO no value. using straight 10s allows you to see the differences in build choices such as race and classes. Similarly adding in equipment and feats seems like a lot of extra work that in no way adds value. With the exception of item slot restrictions and feats specific to a race, type, or size anything one character can get another one can too. Sure it is one thing to provide the important feats for a build like if you are giving a barbarian tripper mentioning that it gets improved trip from an ACF and taking knock-down and combat reflexes, but what is the benefit of specifying the other feats that either character can take?

And I don't argue the importance of talking about builds for said monster nor providing some numbers at some point of that build. I just want to know what is the benefit of fully fleshing out the two? It seems like a lot of extra work that doesn't provide any benefits and in fact clouds the water of comparing the two.

[MisterKaws]

I have seen just as many people make the exact opposite argument with similarly worded abilities on GitP so this seems to be an area where RAW isn't specific. Most recently there was a long discussion about epic sense motives detect thoughts ability functioning against mind blank which has very similar wording.

Anyways I think the need for a corpse, the 1 week time frame, and the fact that you can't reuse corpses ends being enough of a balance to make this ability just fine with a +1 LA in actual game play. You are restricted to what is inside your game and how much your dm is allowing the party to abuse planar binding.



why do you need a point buy, WBL, and feats to compare two builds though? That is my question, what are we gaining from adding these things.

I would in fact say using point buy instead of straight 10s clouds the water because of the added variation it adds with adding IMO no value. using straight 10s allows you to see the differences in build choices such as race and classes. Similarly adding in equipment and feats seems like a lot of extra work that in no way adds value. With the exception of item slot restrictions and feats specific to a race, type, or size anything one character can get another one can too. Sure it is one thing to provide the important feats for a build like if you are giving a barbarian tripper mentioning that it gets improved trip from an ACF and taking knock-down and combat reflexes, but what is the benefit of specifying the other feats that either character can take?

And I don't argue the importance of talking about builds for said monster nor providing some numbers at some point of that build. I just want to know what is the benefit of fully fleshing out the two? It seems like a lot of extra work that doesn't provide any benefits and in fact clouds the water of comparing the two.

Of course, you can compare both builds at full 10s without WBL or feats, but if you compare a monster with full 10s, base feats and no WBL to a tier 2 class with 28/32 point buy, WBL and feats, then we have a real problem. It's none or both, and we all know player classes suck with full 10s.

[liquidformat]

Of course, you can compare both builds at full 10s without WBL or feats, but if you compare a monster with full 10s, base feats and no WBL to a tier 2 class with 28/32 point buy, WBL and feats, then we have a real problem. It's none or both, and we all know player classes suck with full 10s.

the builds I have provided have all been base 10s with no equipment and mostly ignoring feats and skill points for both the monster and the comparison build...

The only time it seems necessary for point buy is when you are trying to compare with a human (who IMO is a bad comparison point), a caster, or in specific cases where something like two-weapon fighting is important for the comparison. Most feats only require 13 in a stat and often such as in the case of barbarian with wolf totem we are specifically avoiding said requirement as part of the build. And in the end besides when you are building around a specific feat chain commenting on feats and skills is only important in situations where you are verifying a build is correct or possible like looking at the skill required for a build like glutton/barb2/paladin2/blackguardx/witch salyerx to verify it is possible.

[MisterKaws]

the builds I have provided have all been base 10s with no equipment and mostly ignoring feats and skill points for both the monster and the comparison build...

The only time it seems necessary for point buy is when you are trying to compare with a human (who IMO is a bad comparison point), a caster, or in specific cases where something like two-weapon fighting is important for the comparison. Most feats only require 13 in a stat and often such as in the case of barbarian with wolf totem we are specifically avoiding said requirement as part of the build. And in the end besides when you are building around a specific feat chain commenting on feats and skills is only important in situations where you are verifying a build is correct or possible like looking at the skill required for a build like glutton/barb2/paladin2/blackguardx/witch salyerx to verify it is possible.

I just noticed now that you're, in fact, talking about the Glutton and went back to look at your post on the previous thread. Why are you comparing a 1/day nova to an all day stat distribution? Why are you talking about classes that the glutton can take just as well, albeit late? You failed to prove much because a glutton would be more effective as a barbarian than your presented build.

[liquidformat]

I just noticed now that you're, in fact, talking about the Glutton and went back to look at your post on the previous thread. Why are you comparing a 1/day nova to an all day stat distribution? Why are you talking about classes that the glutton can take just as well, albeit late? You failed to prove much because a glutton would be more effective as a barbarian than your presented build.

I use that same format (base 10s ignoring equipment and feats) for comparing monsters not just in the case of the Glutton. Those questions were all addressed in following posts, with one more level and if you take extra rage and/or extra wild shape as a feat you are looking at a 2-4/day nova which would be the 'expected' number of encounters. Also although it is just my personal experience I have never been in a game in over 15 years of playing 3/3.5 that has had over two encounters in a day so have never bothered with extra rage and never felt a need for it.

Also as I had said in further posts, while Glutton does benefit from barbarian and I gave stats for that, it will struggle trying to enter Fist of the forest due to skill requirements though it is dueable and bear warrior in fact makes it worse at the identified niche of tripping even though it gives it better ability scores, similarly primeval makes it worse at said job.

Moving back to the initial question, why do you need a point buy, WBL, and feats to compare two builds?

[MisterKaws]

I use that same format (base 10s ignoring equipment and feats) for comparing monsters not just in the case of the Glutton. Those questions were all addressed in following posts, with one more level and if you take extra rage and/or extra wild shape as a feat you are looking at a 2-4/day nova which would be the 'expected' number of encounters. Also although it is just my personal experience I have never been in a game in over 15 years of playing 3/3.5 that has had over two encounters in a day so have never bothered with extra rage and never felt a need for it.

Also as I had said in further posts, while Glutton does benefit from barbarian and I gave stats for that, it will struggle trying to enter Fist of the forest due to skill requirements though it is dueable and bear warrior in fact makes it worse at the identified niche of tripping even though it gives it better ability scores, similarly primeval makes it worse at said job.

Moving back to the initial question, why do you need a point buy, WBL, and feats to compare two builds?

In that specific example you gave, for one, if you gave the Glutton a high Int score, you could get easily into Fist of the Forest with a single dip into a skill-heavy class like Rogue or Factotum. It could also benefit from the AoO line of feats far more than a same-level Fighter, as I showed before.

[Efrate]

I just read the ability in the srd, and there is no provision about the body recently being dead. So any ancient corpse can by RAW get all their abilities they had in life, no restrictions on advanced decomposition. Am I missing something? No need for gentle repose from any outside source or anything.

[liquidformat]

I just read the ability in the srd, and there is no provision about the body recently being dead. So any ancient corpse can by RAW get all their abilities they had in life, no restrictions on advanced decomposition. Am I missing something? No need for gentle repose from any outside source or anything.

The body thief ability functions on eating the brain, so I don't think a standard ancient corpse that didn't have special preservation could qualify. But it doesn't have to be a well preserved corpse just the body with a brain still inside. It leaves a lot of gray area for the dm to fiat as they wish which isn't great.


In that specific example you gave, for one, if you gave the Glutton a high Int score, you could get easily into Fist of the Forest with a single dip into a skill-heavy class like Rogue or Factotum. It could also benefit from the AoO line of feats far more than a same-level Fighter, as I showed before.

To get more than 1 skill point per level out of its first 9 rhd you would need 18 int which is 16 points leaving 12 for everything else; doing so would eliminate the gap in strength and constitution the glutton has over the water orc, which like I said does little besides clouding the waters. Similarly dipping wilderness rogue or factotum only works if you pump int at the cost of the other ability scores that you actually care about and take a class level that does little to nothing for you besides give you skill points to qualify for prcs. I agree there are a number of feats that the glutton is better off taking, such as awesome blow and its prequisites, leap attack, and shock trooper to name a few though I am not sure that specifically adding them in actually does much for the comparison.

Over all it is probably proof that trying to get into FotF isn't a great idea. It is more worth while just straight up using all your skill points to enter FotF while dumping int even if it takes you a bit longer. Anyways, I made the build as a comparison point to get similar ability scores in a bruiser/beatstick type of build and already said trying to replicate it on the glutton is probably a waste of time as it would do better with something like barb2/paladin2/battle dancer 1-2/warhulk. The point was it being a reference point showing that the glutton's ability scores aren't that far out of expectations for its level, especially when that is really the only class features it gets. The other builds I showed were capable of doing things besides just being a beatstick and still be close to as good if not as good as the glutton in the beatstick category and they did a decent job of that without the need for fully fleshing out the build with all feats and equipment on either side.

[MisterKaws]

The body thief ability functions on eating the brain, so I don't think a standard ancient corpse that didn't have special preservation could qualify. But it doesn't have to be a well preserved corpse just the body with a brain still inside. It leaves a lot of gray area for the dm to fiat as they wish which isn't great.



To get more than 1 skill point per level out of its first 9 rhd you would need 18 int which is 16 points leaving 12 for everything else; doing so would eliminate the gap in strength and constitution the glutton has over the water orc, which like I said does little besides clouding the waters. Similarly dipping wilderness rogue or factotum only works if you pump int at the cost of the other ability scores that you actually care about and take a class level that does little to nothing for you besides give you skill points to qualify for prcs. I agree there are a number of feats that the glutton is better off taking, such as awesome blow and its prequisites, leap attack, and shock trooper to name a few though I am not sure that specifically adding them in actually does much for the comparison.

Over all it is probably proof that trying to get into FotF isn't a great idea. It is more worth while just straight up using all your skill points to enter FotF while dumping int even if it takes you a bit longer. Anyways, I made the build as a comparison point to get similar ability scores in a bruiser/beatstick type of build and already said trying to replicate it on the glutton is probably a waste of time as it would do better with something like barb2/paladin2/battle dancer 1-2/warhulk. The point was it being a reference point showing that the glutton's ability scores aren't that far out of expectations for its level, especially when that is really the only class features it gets. The other builds I showed were capable of doing things besides just being a beatstick and still be close to as good if not as good as the glutton in the beatstick category and they did a decent job of that without the need for fully fleshing out the build with all feats and equipment on either side.

Even with 2 Int, Factotum still gives 6 points. 10-4 is 6 y'know? If you put a 14 there you're getting 8 per level. Dip a couple levels, get into Barb, then go FotF. Probably 4 levels to do that.

[liquidformat]

Even with 2 Int, Factotum still gives 6 points. 10-4 is 6 y'know? If you put a 14 there you're getting 8 per level. Dip a couple levels, get into Barb, then go FotF. Probably 4 levels to do that.

You have to have int 3 to be playable, and as I said have 18 to get more than 1 skill point for your first 9 levels. How are you getting 10 skill points per level with factotum? It gives you 6+int, and 6-4 is 2 which if i am being honest isn't worth the dip, even if you bump up to 14 4 per level still isn't particularly worth the dip. But again for comparison's sake this really isn't doing anything to differentiate the glutton, well except show some of its inherent issues I suppose. Fact is -8 int is a pretty big issue that you either need to invest heavily to overcome or strategically pick feats and prcs that will lessen the impact.

Also there is some gray area as to what a -8 int means since by RAW all player races must have 3+ int. Does that mean in point buy I can completely dump int and it will magically bump up to 3, I can dump it but my first ability score point at level 4 must go to int, or does it mean I automatically have to use at least 3 points on int to make the character viable?

[Elkad]

Intellect Devourer.
Excellent DR, resistances, power/magic resistance (psi-magic transparency is the default), full blindsight, and a very nice selection of at-will powers, including some solid Immediate Action defensive ones?
Those appear to be fully augmented at will, so there is an argument that raising your manifester level (practiced manifester?) would continue to improve them. It's even fairly mobile. And decent (not great) at scouting.

Then there is bodythief. As written (poorly), it's just the big asterisk. Sorry, there are too many ways to twist it.
With some sort of reasonable limits (creature only dead for a day, and a HD limit (1-2x your own HD? Equal to your manifester level?), it's still worth another point of LA all by itself I think.

No bodythief? +1 6 sucky HD, but a fine bag of other stuff. I'd play one in a L7 game.
Limited Bodythief? +2
Puppeteering that Ancient Wyrm you found dead, even if only for a week? ***********

[No brains]

-0* It's hard to be a bruiser when you can't wield weapons and it's hard to be a caster with 6hd. Even considering its nice tricks, I don't know if I want to play it over something more simple.

[Inevitability]

A wide variety of votes for the brain nommer!

It pains me to say this, but if your post specifically includes the declaration that you're not using the thread-wide convention for what an asterisk means, I'm not going to count it. I don't like disqualifying votes, but I feel like ignoring the way I'm inevitably going to interpret it removes all value it has.

As far as the confusing .5 vote goes, that was me interpreting Elkad's post which included two separate LAs. Please don't see this as an endorsement of splitting votes in the future though.

+0: 3 votes
+1: 12 votes
+2: 0.5 votes

-0*: 5 votes
+0*: 1 vote
+1*: 1.5 vote

As can be seen, an asteriskless +1 is by far the most popular rating, with -0* being the runner-up. In light of this, LA will be changed to +1.

[Inevitability]

Maenad

https://1d4chan.org/images/thumb/a/ae/Maenad_3e.jpg/250px-Maenad_3e.jpg

A typical splatbook race: fun abilities, but nothing to set it apart and barely any support.

Maenads have very little going for them: they get two bonus power points, 1/day Sonic Energy Ray, and a rage-like ability that increases strength at the expense of intelligence and wisdom for 4 rounds a day. That's a bad combination on basically anything except psychic warriors, and even psychic warriors have tons of other races they'd rather be.

Then again, this is the thread that gave by-the-book goblins +0 LA, so I don't think it's fair to condemn maenads to -0 purgatory. +0 LA, but please ask your DM for a buff.

[danielxcutter]

Uh... wouldn't these suck as Psychic Warriors too? Wilder wouldn't get their PP and power save DCs dropped, so that could work I guess, but that's probably about it. Also, psionics are one of the few(if not only) subsystems that can grant insight bonuses to stats; off the top of my head I can think of Adrenaline Boost for one.

[Efrate]

Splatbook race indeed. A weak +0.

[liquidformat]

I vote we change the bog standard goblin to -0 along with this thing...

[remetagross]

Yeah, that's a direct LA+0.

[MisterKaws]

Maybe with Ascetic Mage and Enlightened Fist? But then again, why the hell would you be using a psionic race on a caster class? Maybe it could be good to qualify for Psionic Focus feats, and maybe for casting in combat by using it to take 15.

I think it could work, but wouldn't be the strongest thing ever.

I agree with the LA +0 but the class needs at least an ability score modifier plus something extra, maybe another psi-like.



By the way, I think you should put a DM warning in the Intellect Devourer's main post about the issue with using bruiser-type monsters on a table with an ID player.

[Mike Miller]

Maenads seem fine at +0. Certainly less controversy here than with the intellect devourer.

[MrSandman]

Its outburst ability might be combined with rage for extra fun, but then again, if you go Barbarian you might as well go half-orc (or any of the other many suitable races) and get the +2 to strength always.

I agree with a weak LA +0

[ViperMagnum357]

Maenad is a weak LA +0.

[Zaq]

Maenads are unremarkable, but they’re perfectly playable. +0 is fine.

They’re mostly useful as a way of getting the psionic keyword on a melee-ish build with no intent to take psionic class levels. The scream and the not-rage are back-pocket tricks at best that won’t define the character, but having the occasional ability to do sonic damage at range isn’t bad even if the usage is obnoxiously limited.

[Caelestion]

1-HD humanoids with 0 LA have to be LA 0 by definition, because otherwise you're in a farcical situation of suggesting that they need to be higher-level to compete with 1st-level characters.

[MisterKaws]

1-HD humanoids with 0 LA have to be LA 0 by definition, because otherwise you're in a farcical situation of suggesting that they need to be higher-level to compete with 1st-level characters.

-0 doesn't imply negative LA. It implies a need to give extra abilities to the race until it is level-appropriate for how many HD it has.

In this case, it would involve giving them a couple attribute modifiers(I suggest +2 Str -2 Int) and maybe increasing the number of uses on their scream to 3 or 5/day. At least that would make them good at delivering sneak attacks if nothing else(as Wilders they suck anyhow).

[liquidformat]

1-HD humanoids with 0 LA have to be LA 0 by definition, because otherwise you're in a farcical situation of suggesting that they need to be higher-level to compete with 1st-level characters.

I completely disagree and we in fact have an example that can be referenced.

MM kobold without Races of the dragon and the two web enhancements is hands down -0 LA
abilities -4 Str +2 Dex -2 Con Net: -4
Small
+2 racial bonus on Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner), and Search checks
+1 NA
Light sensitivity

that is just complete garbage and justifies -0 LA.

Now take the upgrades from the web enhancement and Races of the dragon (ignoring abusive readings).

add: slight of build, 3 natural weapons, light and heavy pick prof as bonus feats, great pick martial prof instead of exotic, Draconic Rite of Passage, greater Draconic Rite of Passage, Dragonwrought feat and subsequent access to dragon only feats.

That is enough to bump the humble kobold up from a -0 LA to a +0 LA and even high end.

The arguments people are giving in favor of a +0 LA for Maenad seems to be along the lines of 'these really suck and aren't a good choice for anything but +0 LA' These arguments seem to support a -0 LA as this thing is horrible. We have already agreed that half orcs are at the bottom of +0 if you are saying this is worse than a half orc then it doesn't seem like +0 LA is reasonable.

[javcs]

1-HD humanoids with 0 LA have to be LA 0 by definition, because otherwise you're in a farcical situation of suggesting that they need to be higher-level to compete with 1st-level characters.

They aren't a full level behind, of course, but there's essentially no reason to ever play one.

They're a -0. It probably wouldn't take that much to push them over into a weak +0, though.

[Caelestion]

"No reason to play one" doesn't mean "can't compete with others of its level". A maenad is bleh, certainly, but it's definitely not weaker than a half-orc.

[Thurbane]

Maenads, at a glance, have very little to stand out about them. Again, I'm fair from an expert on psionics, but 2 bonus PP seems quite good, at lower levels anyhow. Not quite LA -0 territory. LA +0 seems a good fit.

[MisterKaws]

Maenads, at a glance, have very little to stand out about them. Again, I'm fair from an expert on psionics, but 2 bonus PP seems quite good, at lower levels anyhow. Not quite LA -0 territory. LA +0 seems a good fit.

That's.... actually a good point. It's kinda easy to forget that 2pp actually means 2 extra level 1 spells. Still, compared to Elan they're kind of lackluster.

Better than Half-Orc, anyhow.

[ExLibrisMortis]

2 pp is somewhere between two first-level spells and +1d6 damage on a first-level spell twice a day. It's certainly good at level 1, but it scales incredibly badly. Even kalashtar, who have 1 bonus pp/HD, don't break LA +1 in WotC's book, so...

LA +0 for the maenad.

[MisterKaws]

2 pp is somewhere between two first-level spells and +1d6 damage on a first-level spell twice a day. It's certainly good at level 1, but it scales incredibly badly. Even kalashtar, who have 1 bonus pp/HD, don't break LA +1 in WotC's book, so...

LA +0 for the maenad.

Kalashtar is one of the better +0 races indeed. 1PP/level, four +2 modifiers on social skills, Mindlink 1/day and +2 on saves against Mind-Affecting. Just the bonuses on social skills make the Half-Elf cry in fetal position like an aggrieved toddler.

[liquidformat]

Kalashtar is one of the better +0 races indeed. 1PP/level, four +2 modifiers on social skills, Mindlink 1/day and +2 on saves against Mind-Affecting. Just the bonuses on social skills make the Half-Elf cry in fetal position like an aggrieved toddler.

To be fair making a half-elf cry in the fetal position like an aggrieved toddler isn't exactly a high bar, they are bottom of the barrel for +0 base races...

[MisterKaws]

To be fair making a half-elf cry in the fetal position like an aggrieved toddler isn't exactly a high bar, they are bottom of the barrel for +0 base races...

But making them cry because of a minor racial trait most players using the race don't even remember? That's the beautiful part.

[Dimers]

Yeah, I was gonna say "ain't worse than a half-elf." LA +0.

[Inevitability]

Mind Flayers, Psionic

https://i.pinimg.com/474x/24/52/c9/2452c994fa75c224e00723db4c284db8--hp-lovecraft-sea-creatures.jpg

Remember the regular mind flayers, rated two years back? With their at-will AoE save-or-lose, telepathy, spell resistance, and ability to enter one of the most broken PrCs in the game? Yeah, they are back.

Psionic mind flayers actually differ in a pretty significant way. Where their regular ilk has a number of SLAs, the psionic flayer just has complete psion manifesting as a 9th-level character. On something with 8 RHD.

One thing I'm glad about: psionic flayers can't abuse at-will astral projection (looking back, the regular flayer is gonna get a pre-emptively added asterisk just for that). However, that still leaves the very powerful Mind Blast, good stats, high SR, telepathy, and psion casting. Based on the casting level and HD amounts alone, I think anything short of +2 is vastly underestimating just how well 'psion with better stats and Mind Blast' stacks up to 'psion'.

And then there's illithid savant, which I'm not sure how to evaluate let alone rate. I think the regular illithid rating settled on not including it because one class shouldn't impact a rating, but I'm not sure how well that stacks up to more recent ratings.

Considering the full caster perks in addition to all the other goodies, +3 is a fine LA.

[Unavenger]

I think that a +3 is justified. Trading two levels of manifesting for a buff to every single ability score, some of which are fairly sizable, plus a bunch of neat special abilities, seems reasonable, especially when the +8 int almost makes up for the 2 ML in terms of DCs and power points.

[MisterKaws]

I'll say LA +3* for Psionic Flayer, removing the ability to enter Ilithiid Savant.

[Caelestion]

LA +3* sounds more than fair enough. They're a natural T1 caster, with excellent stats and supporting abilities, and that's not getting into the deliberately unquantifiable Illithid Savant PrC.

[ViperMagnum357]

LA +3 seems appropriate. Any beastie with full casting in a top shelf class and substantial stat boosts requires due caution; Having a caster level one above its RHD is an automatic +1 LA. The rest of the package, even with Aberration RHD, is enough for another +2 LA or thereabouts. I do not think the asterisk is warranted; but Savant is something to keep in mind.

[Efrate]

I think +3 is fine here. No asterisk because as much as IS is absurd, if you allow that abomination you are nearly in TO territory already and the caution is thrown to the wind. Plus IS is not a part of the monster itself, like halfling outrider is not part of being a halfling.

[Mike Miller]

I am torn between+2 and +3 but I also don't think an asterisk is necessary. I will vote later when I make up my mind.

[TiaC]

I would say that any game that uses the Illithid Savant would also be TO enough to allow the cheese necessary to qualify for it without being an Illithid. Thus, I don't think an asterisk is needed.

[Zaq]

I think you mean retroactive rather than preemptive if we’re going back and editing in an asterisk way after the fact, but anyway.

+2 is a pretty clear minimum. +3 is pretty punishing but honestly might be appropriate anyway, since +1 of that isn’t really paying for abilities so much as just accounting for (scalable) ML 9 on an 8 HD chassis. Would I play it at +3? Eh, hard to say. There’s enough going on that it’s challenging to give it a traditional rating. I’ll say +3 for now, but I might be willing to drop to +2 if given a persuasive argument why +3 is too much.

[danielxcutter]

I don't feel qualified to actually vote, but I do wish to mention that a psionic flayer can get 9th-level powers as long it gets no more than a +4.

Also, Telepathy is one of the stronger disciplines; even considering that immunity to mind-affecting abilities gets fairly common at high levels, it's not quite universal, Protection from Evil et al. only work on (Compulsion) effects, and Schism is awesome.

Do note that a fairly minor drawback is that you need to regularly eat brains to stay alive and healthy as well as "normal" food, as described in Lords of Madness; probably not too difficult for an adventuring flayer and it's only once a month or so I think, but still worth noting.

[DeTess]

Regarding aberration HD: though usually these are regarded as quite bad, they are a straight upgrade over psion HD. I think +3LA is more than fair in this case. If it wasn't the cut-off point for 9th level powers I could even see an argument for +4LA.

a comparison between a psionic mindflayer an an 11th level gray elf psion, assuming a base stat array before racials of 8, 14, 14, 18, 10, 10



attribute
mindflayer, psionic
gray elf psion 11


HD
8d8+24(63)
11d4+11(40)


Skill points (cap per skill)
110(11)
98(14)


max power level
5
6


powerpoints
108
133


special attacks
mind blast
-


special defences
power resistance 25
immunity to sleep, +2 bonus to saving throws against enchantment spells.

[Caelestion]

Oh yes, even ignoring all the other stuff an illithid comes with, they have d8 HD, medium BAB and +8 Int, so they're already a straight upgrade on a standard psion (even in DSP's Pathfinder upgrade, where they get d6 HD).

As for the asterisk, it's probably not needed, since any GM who allows the Savant PrC either knows exactly what they're letting themself in for or is going to have much bigger problems than just a Psion But Better. I would still play one at LA +3, asterisk and/or PrC or otherwise.

[lord_khaine]

Regarding aberration HD: though usually these are regarded as quite bad, they are a straight upgrade over psion HD. I think +3LA is more than fair in this case. If it wasn't the cut-off point for 9th level powers I could even see an argument for +4LA.

I could honestly still see an argument for +4 LA.
Sicne looking at the comparison you made, we can see that its a very strong +3.

Its slightly weaker in PP. But has the advantage that it can spare a lot of power by relying on its free Mind Blast.
And while it does lose out on a power level here, then that is a lot less relevant for psions.
Telepathy also opens up for mindsight, thats almost brokenly good in such a large radius.

[RedWarlock]

I don’t often vote, but I agree on the +3. Full psion levels are just way more customizable than the fixed SLA list of the non-psi MF, with a lot more potential.

Plus I need to tag in to watch the thread.

[Mike Miller]

After some thought, I feel as though +3 is in line with this thread. I was still having a hard time deciding over two or three. I strongly disagree with the arguments towards four though.

[Inevitability]

I think you mean retroactive rather than preemptive if we’re going back and editing in an asterisk way after the fact, but anyway.

I was referring to how evaluating psionic versions of (technically?) nonpsionic monsters also includes taking a second look at the default monster's LA. If I didn't add the asterisk, I'd have expected a few comments like 'default illithid really needs an asterisk cuz at-will Astral Projection', and I decided to be ahead of those.

[Elkad]

I'm in at +3 as well. IS isn't a consideration, that's a class problem.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Lemme hop on that +3 bandwagon. Losing 9ths is what the designers thought was a good price for turning incorporeal and, honestly, this pile isnot as annoying as dealing with an incorporeal character. +3 is good.

[Zaq]

Do note that a fairly minor drawback is that you need to regularly eat brains to stay alive and healthy as well as "normal" food, as described in Lords of Madness; probably not too difficult for an adventuring flayer and it's only once a month or so I think, but still worth noting.

There are, if desired, ways around that. Even just taking sustenance as a power known is a very simple option if there are social or ethical reasons (something something nothing but CG rebels yearning to buck stereotypes of evil kin something something) why brain eating might not be acceptable/desirable.

Or, you know, give in to your horrifying alien nature and eat humanoid brains. I mean, you’re already playing a freakin’ illlithid. But the point is that there really is a baked-in option (that doesn’t even require gold or other sourcebooks) if for some crazy reason the group/GM feels that playing a mind flayer is cool but letting that mind flayer flay minds is not cool.

[danielxcutter]

There are, if desired, ways around that. Even just taking sustenance as a power known is a very simple option if there are social or ethical reasons (something something nothing but CG rebels yearning to buck stereotypes of evil kin something something) why brain eating might not be acceptable/desirable.

Or, you know, give in to your horrifying alien nature and eat humanoid brains. I mean, you’re already playing a freakin’ illlithid. But the point is that there really is a baked-in option (that doesn’t even require gold or other sourcebooks) if for some crazy reason the group/GM feels that playing a mind flayer is cool but letting that mind flayer flay minds is not cool.

Plus it's probably a bit less ethically questionable when it's someone who literally tried to kill you anyways... well, in comparison.

[MisterKaws]

We eat things of other races that are less intelligent than us. In our case, animals.

They eat things of other races that are less intelligent than them. The only difference is that the things of other races just happen to be us.

[lord_khaine]

Plus it's probably a bit less ethically questionable when it's someone who literally tried to kill you anyways... well, in comparison.

According to Lords of Madness, Illithids wont care.
Concepts such as empathy, ethic or compassion are utterly alien to them.
So they would not have more empathy for a tasty brain, than we would for a chocolate bar.

[noob]

We eat things of other races that are less intelligent than us. In our case, animals.

They eat things of other races that are less intelligent than them. The only difference is that the things of other races just happen to be us.

There is another difference: humans are smart enough to have an alignment while normal animals do not.
If you go and eat the brains of true neutral aligned humans I am not going to stop you.

[MisterKaws]

There is another difference: humans are smart enough to have an alignment while normal animals do not.
If you go and eat the brains of true neutral aligned humans I am not going to stop you.

That's what the books written by humans say. Animals may very well have concepts such as familial love and friendship.

[liquidformat]

That's what the books written by humans say. Animals may very well have concepts such as familial love and friendship.

From my experience with having pets they most definitely do.

Anyways, I think between the straight upgrade from psion to aberration hd, the ability scores, and racial bonuses, I am comfortable with a +4 LA, Loosing 9s seems to be a fair trade for this package. With DeTess' comparison mind flayer is still an upgrade from gray elf at +3.

[noob]

That's what the books written by humans say. Animals may very well have concepts such as familial love and friendship.

Which is not alignment.
Animals can not choose to have an alignment unless they get 3 int or more but then they lose the animal type(and do not necessarily gets a new type which can cause the creation of typeless creatures)
Also I am fine with itilidths eating neutral aligned humans.

[javcs]

I think I'll go with a +3. That leaves it a full power level behind.


Also ... I think in the 3.5 update, baseline Mind Flayers lost At Will Astral Projection.
Unless they got it back in Errata or there was a screwup in the first printing (July 2003) of the 3.5 MM1, where they "only" have Charm Monster, Detect Thoughts, Levitate, Plane Shift, and Suggestion. Which is entirely possible.
Still, at will Charm Monster might merit a DM caution by itself.

[lord_khaine]

A detail that seems to be overlooked is that Mind Flayers manifest a level above their HD.
So they wont lose 9th level powers with +4 LA. A mindflayer(8)Telepath(8) manifests as a level 17 telepath.
And so they can handle the +4 LA im voting for.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Yeah I'll throw in for +4 LA. That's the full mindflayer package, plus 9th level powers.

EDIT: Although perhaps we should look at mindlfayers for a gish build or something, psion being Tier 2.

[Celestia]

+4 is just absurd. Illithids aren't that good. +3 is more than enough.

[ExLibrisMortis]

At LA +3, you trade two levels of psion manifesting for a few hit points, ability scores, PR that scales with level, and Mind Blast. Most of the abilities aren't that good to a pure psion, except for the PR, which is four points higher than the power resistance power can give you (barring the use of Overchannel or other ML boosters, of course), and Mind Blast, which has a long enough duration and big enough area that it's worth using (note that the DC is Charisma-based, which is not ideal for a psion, but you still get +6 Cha, so it's going to be a decently difficult save). Extract is just a fancy way to coup de grace someone, which is cool, but not hugely powerful.

A 12th-level psion with 25 Intelligence (18 base, +3 increases, +4 headband of intellect) will have 126 + 42 = 168 power points.
A psion 6/constructor 6 with the same Intelligence will have 106 + 38 = 144 power points.
A mind flayer psion 1 with 30 Intelligence (18 base, +8 racial, +4 headband of intellect) will have 88 + 50 = 138 power points.

So the illithid's manifesting is quite a bit worse than a straight psion's, having no sixth-level powers, 18% fewer power points and lower manifester level (total number of your highest-level power you can manifest is about the same, but your highest-level power is weaker). It is closer to a psion who's lost a manifester level to a nice PrC, though less able to get future PrC features (capstones, especially, insofar they're relevant).

I don't think I'd play an illithid for the power at LA +3. I'd rather just have a psion/PrC, with more power points, higher ML, and deeper into a relevant PrC. If I really wanted to play an illithid specifically, I'd probably be willing to take the hit at +3, though, treating it as an okay PrC. I can see why many people voted +3.

At LA +2, the illithid would be like a powerful PrC; you lose a manifester level, but you get some perks (small gain in bab, nice hp gain), good PR, and Mind blast. I'm fine with that, really. I'll go LA +2 for these.

[Remuko]

At LA +3, you trade two levels of psion manifesting for a few hit points, ability scores, PR that scales with level, and Mind Blast. Most of the abilities aren't that good to a pure psion, except for the PR, which is four points higher than the power resistance power can give you (barring the use of Overchannel or other ML boosters, of course), and Mind Blast, which has a long enough duration and big enough area that it's worth using (note that the DC is Charisma-based, which is not ideal for a psion, but you still get +6 Cha, so it's going to be a decently difficult save). Extract is just a fancy way to coup de grace someone, which is cool, but not hugely powerful.

A 12th-level psion with 25 Intelligence (18 base, +3 increases, +4 headband of intellect) will have 126 + 42 = 168 power points.
A psion 6/constructor 6 with the same Intelligence will have 106 + 38 = 144 power points.
A mind flayer psion 1 with 30 Intelligence (18 base, +8 racial, +4 headband of intellect) will have 88 + 50 = 138 power points.

So the illithid's manifesting is quite a bit worse than a straight psion's, having no sixth-level powers, 18% fewer power points and lower manifester level (total number of your highest-level power you can manifest is about the same, but your highest-level power is weaker). It is closer to a psion who's lost a manifester level to a nice PrC, though less able to get future PrC features (capstones, especially, insofar they're relevant).

I don't think I'd play an illithid for the power at LA +3. I'd rather just have a psion/PrC, with more power points, higher ML, and deeper into a relevant PrC. If I really wanted to play an illithid specifically, I'd probably be willing to take the hit at +3, though, treating it as an okay PrC. I can see why many people voted +3.

At LA +2, the illithid would be like a powerful PrC; you lose a manifester level, but you get some perks (small gain in bab, nice hp gain), good PR, and Mind blast. I'm fine with that, really. I'll go LA +2 for these.

Agree with this. +2 is my vote

[Lans]

From my experience with having pets they most definitely do.

Anyways, I think between the straight upgrade from psion to aberration hd, the ability scores, and racial bonuses, I am comfortable with a +4 LA, Loosing 9s seems to be a fair trade for this package. With DeTess' comparison mind flayer is still an upgrade from gray elf at +3.

Wouldn't they still get 9ths with a +4?

[liquidformat]

Wouldn't they still get 9ths with a +4?

Yep, math wasn't my friend today...

[StevenC21]

While the Mind Flayer is certainly powerful, it's not powerful enough for +3 LA.

Losing out on another ML and associated traits is too hard a hit.

+2 LA

[OgresAreCute]

I'll go for +3 for the psionic mind flayer.

[DeTess]

Whoops, yeah, seems that I miscalculated that one. I still feel that he leap to +4LA is just a bit too big as it puts them more than a full power-level behind for most of their career. Maybe implement reverse buy-off, where they gain an additional LA after they get 9th level powers :p

[ExLibrisMortis]

Maybe implement reverse buy-off, where they gain an additional LA after they get 9th level powers :p
LA post-9th-level powers/spells is a funny subject. On the one hand, you can pile on LA and remain relevant for a really long time (because you have 9ths anyway). On the other hand, you might as well scrap LA altogether (because all 9th-casters are more or less in the same ballpark anyway). At ECL 17+, the only levels that really matter are "full caster", "not full caster", and "epic caster".

[Celestia]

At LA +3, you trade two levels of psion manifesting for a few hit points, ability scores, PR that scales with level, and Mind Blast. Most of the abilities aren't that good to a pure psion, except for the PR, which is four points higher than the power resistance power can give you (barring the use of Overchannel or other ML boosters, of course), and Mind Blast, which has a long enough duration and big enough area that it's worth using (note that the DC is Charisma-based, which is not ideal for a psion, but you still get +6 Cha, so it's going to be a decently difficult save). Extract is just a fancy way to coup de grace someone, which is cool, but not hugely powerful.

A 12th-level psion with 25 Intelligence (18 base, +3 increases, +4 headband of intellect) will have 126 + 42 = 168 power points.
A psion 6/constructor 6 with the same Intelligence will have 106 + 38 = 144 power points.
A mind flayer psion 1 with 30 Intelligence (18 base, +8 racial, +4 headband of intellect) will have 88 + 50 = 138 power points.

So the illithid's manifesting is quite a bit worse than a straight psion's, having no sixth-level powers, 18% fewer power points and lower manifester level (total number of your highest-level power you can manifest is about the same, but your highest-level power is weaker). It is closer to a psion who's lost a manifester level to a nice PrC, though less able to get future PrC features (capstones, especially, insofar they're relevant).

I don't think I'd play an illithid for the power at LA +3. I'd rather just have a psion/PrC, with more power points, higher ML, and deeper into a relevant PrC. If I really wanted to play an illithid specifically, I'd probably be willing to take the hit at +3, though, treating it as an okay PrC. I can see why many people voted +3.

At LA +2, the illithid would be like a powerful PrC; you lose a manifester level, but you get some perks (small gain in bab, nice hp gain), good PR, and Mind blast. I'm fine with that, really. I'll go LA +2 for these.
These are some good points. I'm changing to +2.

[lord_khaine]

Its not just small perks you gain at LA +2. Its gamechanging abilities.
In that case you just lose a single manifester level. Something thats not nearly as important for a psion due to the argumentation mechanics.
In return it gets.

* 20-50% more Hp, depending on calculation. This is staggering, as HP is the most important resource in the game. Without them you cant do anything.

*Physical boosts of +8 total. Where the +4 dex is especially important, improving both Initiative, ranget to hit and ac.

*Natural armor of +3, totaling the ac bonus at +5. AC is often downplayed, but its still important, since its the way most monsters will attack you.

*Aberation type. Both giving it protection from a few different attacks, as well as opening up metamorphis use.

*Power resistance 25+class level. This is again extremely useful. At an assumed level 10, this means that anything but boss monsters can just about give up on using magic against the mind flayer.
Since an equal level opponent, like a sorcerer 10, will by default only penetrate SR around 25% of the time. Weaker things, like minions with evocation wands, monsters with spell like abilities,
or a support team of for example 4 level 8 sorceres (a level 12 encounter), will go from being a hazard to a nuiseance.
Of course, yes it is possible to use SR:No spells against the Mind Flayer. But as a Psion it has the ability to tailor its defence against those things.
Where a empowered fireball is a significant threat to a regular Psion that resources has to be allocated to defend from, then the Mind Flayer can instead invest in utility or more offence.

* +8 int, +6 to the other mental stats. Enough said about just how valuable the main manifester stat is on things like DC or PP ?

*Mind blast. Its an at will Save-or-Lose in a 60 foot cone. With a dc that scales on the stat you get +6 to. It can easily affect the entire battlefield if your party deploys for it.
It counts as a level 4 spell for DC. But powerwise that level isnt even close. For a comparison, Hold Monster (5) only affects a single target, not the entire battlefield.
And Hold Monster Mass is a level 9 spell that doesnt affect quite the same area.
If you invest a single feat you get to boost the dc by 2, and then you can spam a level 6, AOE, save or lose every, single, round.
How many other +1 La monsters have a at-will save or lose ability? Just how hard is it to get something like that as a normal PC?

*Darkvision, another trait thats super useful for lurking around, or spotting those that try to do the same.

*Telepathy 100. Another ability that on itself can be easy to underestiate. But it allows for coordinating the party to an extreme degree.
Or hold private conversations in public places about course of action, or to coordinate anwers for the authorities. Its perfect for both social games and dungeon crawling.
And then you add the feat mindsight, and it become bonkers. Since you can then spot anything with a mind in a 100 feet radius though walls.

[Caelestion]

Put like that, I'd laugh someone out the room if they suggested playing all that for just +1 LA.

[Blue Jay]

Its not just small perks you gain at LA +2. Its gamechanging abilities.
In that case you just lose a single manifester level. Something thats not nearly as important for a psion due to the argumentation mechanics.

Augmentation is limited by manifester level, so ML loss is pretty much exactly as important for a psion as CL loss is for a spellcaster.

That said, I'm still voting for LA +3.

[danielxcutter]

Okay, people say SR/PR is a double-edged sword, but that much is practically immunity, and that's without boosting it further with things like a Dazzix's Vest or Boost Spell Resistance.

[Celestia]

Okay, people say SR/PR is a double-edged sword, but that much is practically immunity, and that's without boosting it further with things like a Dazzix's Vest or Boost Spell Resistance.
Yep, immunity from life saving healing spells.

[ExLibrisMortis]

In that case you just lose a single manifester level. Something thats not nearly as important for a psion due to the argumentation mechanics.
If anything, augmentation (I guess autocorrect got you there) makes manifester levels even more important. It unlocks new uses for older, lower-level powers. It is knowledge of higher-level powers that is somewhat less important for a psion than a wizard (although 6ths include temporal acceleration, known to wizards as time stop, so...).

Things like physical boosts, hit points, and natural armour are all obtainable through powers anyway, chiefly through metamorphosis and vigor. Telepathy is available with a Mindbender dip (assuming the psionic conversion is in play), or simply with five levels in Telepath. None of these things are as valuable to a full caster as they are to a bruiser.


Okay, people say SR/PR is a double-edged sword, but that much is practically immunity, and that's without boosting it further with things like a Dazzix's Vest or Boost Spell Resistance.
As I wrote, it's four points better than the PR the power resistance power will get you without ML boosts (15 + class levels for the racial PR, 12 + ML for the power). If you Overchannel power resistance with an orange ioun stone, you can have the same PR for minutes/level (typically 15+ minutes). A psion with no lost ML only needs three extra manifester levels to get equal PR. So: yes, it's powerful, and much more convenient, but no, it's not out of line (as ability) with what you can expect a psion to have (when needed) anyway. As a point of comparison, consider a class feature along the lines of "+4 PR when using the power resistance power". Such a feature would be strong, but not unreasonably so.

[danielxcutter]

Yep, immunity from life saving healing spells.

Hence "double-edged sword", but considering Vigor, Body Adjustment, and True Metabolism are things(and also on the standard Psion list), it's not quite a problem as it is for, say, a Wizard.


If anything, augmentation (I guess autocorrect got you there) makes manifester levels even more important. It unlocks new uses for older, lower-level powers. It is knowledge of higher-level powers that is somewhat less important for a psion than a wizard (although 6ths include temporal acceleration, known to wizards as time stop, so...).

Things like physical boosts, hit points, and natural armour are all obtainable through powers anyway, chiefly through metamorphosis and vigor. Telepathy is available with a Mindbender dip (assuming the psionic conversion is in play), or simply with five levels in Telepath. None of these things are as valuable to a full caster as they are to a bruiser.

Practiced Manifester is a thing, though.


As I wrote, it's four points better than the PR the power resistance power will get you without ML boosts (15 + class levels for the racial PR, 12 + ML for the power). If you Overchannel power resistance with an orange ioun stone, you can have the same PR for minutes/level (typically 15+ minutes). A psion with no lost ML only needs three extra manifester levels to get equal PR. So: yes, it's powerful, and much more convenient, but no, it's not out of line (as ability) with what you can expect a psion to have (when needed) anyway. A class feature along the lines of "+4 PR when using the power resistance power" would be strong, but not unreasonable.

Yeah, except you don't need to spend a power known on Power Resistance. And 5th level is pretty damn crowded.

[Blue Jay]

Yep, immunity from life saving healing spells.

I don't think healing is the main problem with SR/PR. By default, you can lower your SR at will with just an action cost, and that action cost is really only relevant for in-combat healing (which optimizers tell you not to do anyway). Also, the entry says SR doesn't interfere with spells you cast yourself or items you use yourself, so that arguably means you automatically overcome your own SR and can heal yourself. So, aside from stabilizing yourself when dying, healing shouldn't really be too problematic.

Accepting buff spells from the rest of the party has always been the biggest hassle of SR, in my experience.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Practiced Manifester is a thing, though.
Practiced Manifester won't help you make up lost ML from LA, because it increases your ML up to a maximum of your HD, and one thing LA does not grant is HD. That is more or less the point of LA.

In fact, having manifesting equal to HD + 1 means that Practiced Manifester doesn't do anything for an illithid until their second lost manifester level. An illithid thrallherd 10 (18 HD, 17th-level manifesting) can't use Practiced Manifester to make up both ML lost to Thrallherd. I mean, it's a Thrallherd with 9th-level powers, so you really don't need to, but as an example.


Yeah, except you don't need to spend a power known on Power Resistance. And 5th level is pretty damn crowded.
*shrug* I guess it's also a free power known then?

Yes, PR is nice to have, and illithid get a better version than most. But even the PR illithid get is not "practically immunity" (not even a golem's "infinite SR" is close to immunity to magic as possessed by e.g. dragonbone golems), and if it really is that good and worth a point of LA, you can expect all your full casters to run comparable amounts of SR anyway.

[Celestia]

I don't think healing is the main problem with SR/PR. By default, you can lower your SR at will with just an action cost, and that action cost is really only relevant for in-combat healing (which optimizers tell you not to do anyway). Also, the entry says SR doesn't interfere with spells you cast yourself or items you use yourself, so that arguably means you automatically overcome your own SR and can heal yourself. So, aside from stabilizing yourself when dying, healing shouldn't really be too problematic.

Accepting buff spells from the rest of the party has always been the biggest hassle of SR, in my experience.
I know, but this made my comment more pithy. :smalltongue:

[Inevitability]

Overwhelming majority for +3, psionic mindflayer will be set to that.

[Inevitability]

Neothelid

https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/images/neothelid.jpg

AKA: the result of a mind flayer larva being left alone for too long. Amusingly, while pathfinder was legally prevented from including illithids, the neothelid were completely fair game, leading to a bestiary where the latter were just awkwardly shoved in.

25 aberration RHD don't bode too well for playability, sadly. Additionally, anything that'd like being Gargantuan would also like having functioning hands.

The wormbeasts also have a wide variety of PLAs, but those tend to be mid-level at most.

The neothelid's other abilities: swallow whole, improved grab, and a strong acid breath weapon, are not all that impressive when you're a mid-epic character.

Overall, -0 LA. Remove a ton of RHD and this might be more playable.

[StevenC21]

Easy -0.

25 aberration HD is an absolute death knell for a player.

[liquidformat]

scary worm is an easy -0

[ZamielVanWeber]

I love this thing conceptually and visually but 25 HD had better have something solid and this is NOT it. -0.

[ViperMagnum357]

Neothelid: yuck, on a lot of levels. 25 Aberration RHD, below average natural AC, terrible ground speed with no other modes, no hands, terrible PR, and mediocre PLAs and a natural attack routine. Oh, and the net abilities of something 13 RHD. There is really nothing here to salavage, I think: LA -0.

[remetagross]

LA -0 too, though the picture is awesome.

[MisterKaws]

It's cute.

-0

[MrSandman]

LA -0, clearly.

[Thurbane]

Even without much knowledge of psionics, I can easily see this thing is not a functional epic level PC; LA -0.

[OgresAreCute]

Might not contribute much to the party, but the crowd at the sea cucumber convention are gonna love it!

-0.

[Zaq]

[CENTER]Neothelid



25 aberration RHD

Aaand we’re done here.

[Thurbane]

Not to jump the gun (honestly though, I can't foresee anything other than LA -0 for the giant psi-worm), but the conversation about Phrenic should be interesting. It's generally acknowledged as one of the best LA +2 templates out there.

[Efrate]

Neolithid has waaaaaaay to many HD to be viable. Isn't there something similar in the ELH?

-0

[javcs]

Neolithid has waaaaaaay to many HD to be viable. Isn't there something similar in the ELH?

-0

That would be most of the ELH with too many RHD.

Unless you meant is there another oversized worm type monster ... and then probably? I mean WotC tossed in "epic" versions (they're really not) of mundane animals and vermin, plus there's a bunch of weirdo monsters in the ELH.

Edit: Oh, right. LA -0, duh.

[ViperMagnum357]

Neolithid has waaaaaaay to many HD to be viable. Isn't there something similar in the ELH?


The Ha-Naga has Sorcerer caster levels in excess of its Hit Dice, not much of a comparison point there.

[danielxcutter]

So... how do they fare for their CR?

[Zancloufer]

Do we even need to discuss something with 20+ RHD? -yes to it's LA.

[ViperMagnum357]

Do we even need to discuss something with 20+ RHD? -yes to it's LA.

We will when we get to the Ha-Naga. :smalltongue:

[ZamielVanWeber]

Do we even need to discuss something with 20+ RHD? -yes to it's LA.

MM2's linnorms have substantial casting, massive stats, and dragon HD. I suspect even the 25 HD one will end up with an LA (although admittedly this thread has suffered a touch of the power creep).

[MisterKaws]

Ha-Naga, Linnorms, Steel Dragons, et cetera.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I made a post in the previous thread (=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24038462&postcount=1500) on accident. Mostly irrelevant, but there's on point I think is worth sharing:



(you try finding armor that fits a walking brain)Helmets.

Anyways:



I would say that any game that uses the Illithid Savant would also be TO enough to allow the cheese necessary to qualify for it without being an Illithid. Thus, I don't think an asterisk is needed.
What kind of cheese is that? Or are you just assuming that there is some because of how many cheesily broken things there are in 3.5?



We eat things of other races that are less intelligent than us. In our case, animals.
They eat things of other races that are less intelligent than them. The only difference is that the things of other races just happen to be us.
I'd argue that the morality of eating something is based on their absolute intelligence, not their relative intelligence. Ignoring that quantifying intelligence like that is impossible, it's as wrong for a crocodile to eat a cow as it is for a human to eat a cow (assuming the croc and human are in sufficiently similar circumstances), because you're killing a cow either way.
Granted, if your moral epistemology doesn't assume all actors should be judged the same (given the same scenario, of course), this argument falls flat. But that axiom is an important part of mine, so I don't like this kind of argument.



That's what the books written by humans say. Animals may very well have concepts such as familial love and friendship.
They definitely do. So do Evil creatures. Kindness and companionship are not the sole domain of Pelor's buddies; if they were, Evil would be less like a wolf at Heaven's door and more like a swarm of mosquitos running into Its bug-zapper.

[MisterKaws]

Helmets.

You forgot shoes. It's got legs y'know.



What kind of cheese is that? Or are you just assuming that there is some because of how many cheesily broken things there are in 3.5?

PAO, likely. Or some Emancipated Spawn thing. Does that even work with Mind Flayer?


I'd argue that the morality of eating something is based on their absolute intelligence, not their relative intelligence. Ignoring that quantifying intelligence like that is impossible, it's as wrong for a crocodile to eat a cow as it is for a human to eat a cow (assuming the croc and human are in sufficiently similar circumstances), because you're killing a cow either way.
Granted, if your moral epistemology doesn't assume all actors should be judged the same (given the same scenario, of course), this argument falls flat. But that axiom is an important part of mine, so I don't like this kind of argument.

Crocodiles still consider themselves superior to cows. My point here is that it wouldn't be morally wrong to eat a being whom you don't even consider as an equal.

Also, crocodiles and wolves are Neutral, but tending towards Evil according to Lycanthropy. But that's the developers' weirdness speaking.


They definitely do. So do Evil creatures. Kindness and companionship are not the sole domain of Pelor's buddies; if they were, Evil would be less like a wolf at Heaven's door and more like a swarm of mosquitos running into Its bug-zapper.

And that's why anyone who eats normal food is Evil. Only Create Food-egans realized the truth of their mistakes and repented by eating magically created food that harms no living beings.

[OgresAreCute]

Crocodiles still consider themselves superior to cows. My point here is that it wouldn't be morally wrong to eat a being whom you don't even consider as an equal.

Also, crocodiles and wolves are Neutral, but tending towards Evil according to Lycanthropy. But that's the developers' weirdness speaking.

That is explicitly not how it works.

Alignment
Any. Noble creatures such as bears, eagles, and lions tend to produce good-aligned lycanthropes. Sinister creatures such as rats, snakes, and wolves tend to produce evil-aligned lycanthropes. This is a reflection of how these animals are perceived, not any innate quality of the animal itself, so the alignment of the animal form can be arbitrarily assigned.
Emphasis mine, taken from here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm).

[MisterKaws]

That is explicitly not how it works.

Emphasis mine, taken from here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm).

Aww, you ruined my joke using RAW.

Fair enough.

[OgresAreCute]

Aww, you ruined my joke using RAW.

Fair enough.

Yarrrrrrrrr

[Caelestion]

Aww, you ruined my joke using RAW.

It's a RAW deal but someone's got to do it.

[No brains]

It's a RAW deal but someone's got to do it.

You say it's 'RAW', but by the smell, I'd say 'ripe'! :smalltongue:

[Inevitability]

On account of being on a brief holiday, there will be no updates for a short while. Expect relative normalcy to resume next week.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Crocodiles still consider themselves superior to cows. My point here is that it wouldn't be morally wrong to eat a being whom you don't even consider as an equal.
So it wouldn't be immoral for an antebellum landowner to eat his slaves? I don't care what the perpetrator thinks is moral or immoral; people don't do something unless they think they're justified. But the existence those self-justifications doesn't matter, only their validity, and "These sapient people are inferior to me" is worse than weak.
Also, nitpick, crocodiles don't consider themselves superior to cows. They don't consider anything "superior" to anything else in that sense, because they have neither the capacity to consider ranking things in that sense nor any reason to.

[Zaq]

GWG, you’re a cool person and I like what you have to say, but I fear that the road you’re on will lead to Modville.

[MisterKaws]

So it wouldn't be immoral for an antebellum landowner to eat his slaves? I don't care what the perpetrator thinks is moral or immoral; people don't do something unless they think they're justified. But the existence those self-justifications doesn't matter, only their validity, and "These sapient people are inferior to me" is worse than weak.
Also, nitpick, crocodiles don't consider themselves superior to cows. They don't consider anything "superior" to anything else in that sense, because they have neither the capacity to consider ranking things in that sense nor any reason to.

Geez, no need to get so riled up.

Crocodiles see cows as "food", and for me that's enough to see it as an inferior being. They also see humans as food, and a crocodile eating a human wouldn't be considered immoral, because it's just eating what it has to eat.

Mindflayers can only survive on brains of lesser creatures that would die just a short while later anyways, so why would they care? They have to eat, that's all there is to it. Does it matter that they can communicate some more elaborate grunts? They don't even know the cubic root of pi! They're just smarter, balder, tastier monkeys.

And I'm talking inter-species here. Any being who treats another being of their fellow race as food is probably not very good. Unless the species has that practice, of course, like some spiders.

[lord_khaine]

I think the whole debate about Illithids are kinda silly.
They are super, duper, evil. Especially so if you go by the Lord of Madness material.
Why does it matter if one of their horrible deeds are more or less horrible.. ?

[MisterKaws]

I think the whole debate about Illithids are kinda silly.
They are super, duper, evil. Especially so if you go by the Lord of Madness material.
Why does it matter if one of their horrible deeds are more or less horrible.. ?

I(and I assume many others) tend to ignore the lore contained in the 2006-2007 creature-focused books. Most of the time it goes diametrically opposite to the original lore, so it's easier to just not use it.

[StevenC21]

Examples please?

[MisterKaws]

Examples please?

Lords of Madness tends to make them dumb Evil, but it's still not theven close to the worst. The entire Fiendish Codex(abyss version) makes demons sound more Lawful than Chaotic. The whole book is basically this.

[StevenC21]

Any specific examples from that book? I don't have it on me right now.

[Efrate]

That always bugged me about fc1. There is lot more hierarchy and fairly involved long term plotting and planning than I am comfortable attributing to most demons. Fc2 is much better in this regard.

What is mind flayer original lore? I know they enslaved (created?) The gith, which split after the revolution where they blew up a star and mind flayer home world iirc. That's what I recall. Then the whole human from the future who time travel back to survive is from LoM iirc. Or should I check afros threads.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Geez, no need to get so riled up.
Moral debates do that.


Crocodiles see cows as "food", and for me that's enough to see it as an inferior being. They also see humans as food, and a crocodile eating a human wouldn't be considered immoral, because it's just eating what it has to eat.
Yeah, bringing animals (which aren't moral actors) into this was kinda dumb. I was just trying to think of a creature stupider than a cow which would eat it; maybe I should have said that it's as immoral for a human to eat a mind flayer as it is for a mind flayer to eat a mind flayer? Or just moved the discussion away from the specific act of eating a sapient being?


Mindflayers can only survive on brains of lesser creatures that would die just a short while later anyways, so why would they care?
I never said they would care. I said it wasn't moral. This is the entire point my half of this discussion has been centered around. Why have you been ignoring this?


And I'm talking inter-species here. Any being who treats another being of their fellow race as food is probably not very good. Unless the species has that practice, of course, like some spiders.
1. Why did you write an out that applies to basically every example?
2. Again, why are you asserting that the identity of a moral agent is a critical factor in determining the morality of an action? My entire premise and point has been that it does not. Stop saying it matters without backing that up.
(Note that "identity" is distinct from "circumstance". I'm not saying that a starving man stealing bread is as bad as a man stealing bread for no reason; I'm saying that a starving man stealing bread is as bad as a starving, I dunno, goblin or unicorn stealing bread.)



What is mind flayer original lore? I know they enslaved (created?) The gith, which split after the revolution where they blew up a star and mind flayer home world iirc. That's what I recall. Then the whole human from the future who time travel back to survive is from LoM iirc. Or should I check afros threads.
I'm not aware of any two sources from across all editions of D&D which give compatible accounts of mind flayer origins.

[Thurbane]

The earliest treatment of Mind Flayer background I'm aware of is The Ecology of the Mind Flayer, back in Dragon 78. Their origin is (deliberately?) left a bit ambiguous there.

[Caelestion]

The illithids were presented as ingeniously evil in 1998's The Illithiad, where an explicitly unclear origin story is presented. One suggestion is that they were time-travellers from the edge of time who strayed "Outside" (perhaps the Far Realm) and were irretrievably altered by their experiences. Another is that they suddenly arrived in the unimaginably distant past, but from where (or when) is not stated.

[lord_khaine]

Lords of Madness tends to make them dumb Evil, but it's still not theven close to the worst.

I disagree.
It does not make them dumb evil.
It does makes them actually inhuman and alien.
Instead of bad people with an octopus face.

[Mike Miller]

We now return to our previously scheduled LA assignment thread.

[Thurbane]

We now return to our previously scheduled LA assignment thread.

Well, we do have time to kill until Inevitability is back from holiday...

[ViperMagnum357]

Well, we do have time to kill until Inevitability is back from holiday...

Plus, if we keep cluttering up this thread with tangential garbage posts, we can finish up and lock this thread and its non-functional pun title that totally does not work that much faster. :smallannoyed:

[StevenC21]

The pun title is great, and you are being very rude to poor Inevitability, who works very hard to get these ratings out and categorize them in the archive. I see no reason for you to be this abusive to him.

[ViperMagnum357]

The pun title is great, and you are being very rude to poor Inevitability, who works very hard to get these ratings out and categorize them in the archive. I see no reason for you to be this abusive to him.

We voted on the thread title, then the majority vote was discarded in favor of one chosen by him. And I stand by the pun not working phonetically.

[Caelestion]

I don't recall a formal vote being called. We expressed our preferences and that was that.

[No brains]

As long as I wanted that title and much as I would like to lead something, I don't really see a need for an insurrection over this season's chosen pun. The pun is less important than the content of the thread. The poetry of my stupid pun spoke of relevance to the subject. To take that title while betraying its intent is a blasphemy toward board game-related humor.

Not to mention, the title kind of meta-wins because it too is stifled like eye-bolas trying to cast a spell.:smalltongue:

[Remuko]

Moral debates do that.


Yeah, bringing animals (which aren't moral actors) into this was kinda dumb. I was just trying to think of a creature stupider than a cow which would eat it; maybe I should have said that it's as immoral for a human to eat a mind flayer as it is for a mind flayer to eat a mind flayer? Or just moved the discussion away from the specific act of eating a sapient being?


I never said they would care. I said it wasn't moral. This is the entire point my half of this discussion has been centered around. Why have you been ignoring this?


1. Why did you write an out that applies to basically every example?
2. Again, why are you asserting that the identity of a moral agent is a critical factor in determining the morality of an action? My entire premise and point has been that it does not. Stop saying it matters without backing that up.
(Note that "identity" is distinct from "circumstance". I'm not saying that a starving man stealing bread is as bad as a man stealing bread for no reason; I'm saying that a starving man stealing bread is as bad as a starving, I dunno, goblin or unicorn stealing bread.)



I'm not aware of any two sources from across all editions of D&D which give compatible accounts of mind flayer origins.

I dont want to get much into this discussion you guys were having but I just wanted to point out a reminder, that theres not just "Moral" and "Immoral" theres also "Amoral". Something "good" is "moral". Something "bad" is "immoral". Something neutral, or unbound by morals is "amoral".

[MisterKaws]

I dont want to get much into this discussion you guys were having but I just wanted to point out a reminder, that theres not just "Moral" and "Immoral" theres also "Amoral". Something "good" is "moral". Something "bad" is "immoral". Something neutral, or unbound by morals is "amoral".

And that's my whole point. I'll just skip the arguing.

[Inevitability]

Phrenic

http://srd.dndtools.org/srd/resource/images/eph/80500.jpg

Miscellaneous Psionic Creatures, named after... one fairly unremarkable nerve in the human body?

Anyway, the phrenic template is a rare example of WotC actually judging a LA well. Its current rating of +2 is widely accepted as fairly balanced, and while it's by no means a top-tier pick it is still something a fair number of characters can benefit from.

The benefits are simple but elegant: power resistance, some bonuses to mental stats, a free power point, and a long list of HD-based PLAs, in a similar fashion to Half-Celestial and Half-Fiend. The powers are pretty useful, including save-or-loses, solid utility, and buffs.

The current rating of +2 is more than reasonable, and will not be changed.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I am not sure anyone would disagree on phrenic being +2. Auto-augmenting psionic power, the ability to gain focus, and a bonus to all mental stats with no penalties. It's pretty much perfect for anyone who, for one reason or another, has +2 LA to fling around.

[StevenC21]

LA +2 should easily suffice. The stat bonuses are nice, but not over the top.

[ViperMagnum357]

LA +2 for Phrenic. The net abilities are low for +2 but too much for +1. The abilities are acceptably strong, enough to offset the net abilities, and the other bonuses together slot this comfortably into LA +2, if in the lower half.

[Efrate]

Phrenic one (only?) La wotc got right. +2.

[Thurbane]

Again, no expert on psionics, but Phrenic is quite widely touted as one of the very few LA +2 (as written) templates that people consider to be somewhat worthwhile.

I'm agreeing with LA +2.

[MisterKaws]

Wouldn't see why anyone would disagree on this one. It's quite a good template for mostly any character. Makes any fighter a sort-of gish too, which is good.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wouldn't see why anyone would disagree on this one. It's quite a good template for mostly any character. Makes any fighter a sort-of gish too, which is good.

The ability to gain psionic focus is useful for anyone using Diamond Mind and all three martial adepts use mental stats. It is interesting to think just how many classes appreciate "take 15" on a concentration check.

[MisterKaws]

The ability to gain psionic focus is useful for anyone using Diamond Mind and all three martial adepts use mental stats. It is interesting to think just how many classes appreciate "take 15" on a concentration check.

which is decent, but not game-breaking. You could certainly do better with some Strength-focused race and nightmare blades to stack multipliers.

Also Psi-Focus is a feat or a class level away anyway. Or just an LA+0 race.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Phrenic is a template. You can have that Str boosting race alongside Phrenic's pile of goodness and even without LA buff you are a feat ahead of someone who took Wild Talent (or Hidden if allowed). At least at 20.

[MisterKaws]

Phrenic is a template. You can have that Str boosting race alongside Phrenic's pile of goodness and even without LA buff you are a feat ahead of someone who took Wild Talent (or Hidden if allowed). At least at 20.

But still behind someone who went Half-Ogre Water Orc with a dip into PsiWar.

[Zaq]

At least it scales. LA +2 is a very big cost, but the fact that it scales makes all the difference. I think I’m more or less okay with +2. However, I will note that I still wouldn’t play it at +2. I merely recognize that it’s probably a bit too strong for +1.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Plus, if we keep cluttering up this thread with tangential garbage posts, we can finish up and lock this thread and its non-functional pun title that totally does not work that much faster. :smallannoyed:
I guess you're one of today's 10,000 people (https://xkcd.com/1053/) to learn about La La Land (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3783958/).



I dont want to get much into this discussion you guys were having but I just wanted to point out a reminder, that theres not just "Moral" and "Immoral" theres also "Amoral". Something "good" is "moral". Something "bad" is "immoral". Something neutral, or unbound by morals is "amoral".
Not sure what your point is. A mind flayer is intelligent enough to count as a moral actor.

[lord_khaine]

At least it scales. LA +2 is a very big cost, but the fact that it scales makes all the difference. I think I’m more or less okay with +2. However, I will note that I still wouldn’t play it at +2. I merely recognize that it’s probably a bit too strong for +1.

It is kinda in a funny place?
I think i would just about always take it at +1.
But im not generally certain i would take it at +2.
Its just about a perfect example of a +1½

[Dimers]

Sure, LA +2 for phrenic template.

One oddity, though -- it can't be applied to creatures that are already psionic. Seems like an odd exclusion.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Sure, LA +2 for phrenic template.

One oddity, though -- it can't be applied to creatures that are already psionic. Seems like an odd exclusion.
As odd as not being allowed to apply the half-celestial template to angels. Phrenic creatures are creatures that aren't normally psionic, but who are.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Given the auto-augment of the powers it is the single best "grants level-based pseudo-casting" template, IMO. Handily beats Half-Celestial and Half-Fiend, and I'd say it's solidly above Half-Fey too.

Is there any template that straight up grants casting? I can't recall any.

Hell, the sheer amount of PP on a high-HD creature due the auto-augment might very well be equal or above what a Psion of equal level can bring to bear. Plenty of 3/day ones that augment very well.

I think I'd take it on most of any mid level martial I'd build, if I could.

Still agree with +2, but I'm surprised by the sort of unenthusiastic response to Phrenic.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Is there any template that straight up grants casting? I can't recall any.

Symbiotic Creature. Spells are a Special Attack, and therefore transferred to the host if the guest was a caster.

EDIT: Not even joking, that's actually how it works. Every time I try to use that template I discover something else broken about it.

[MisterKaws]

Not sure what your point is. A mind flayer is intelligent enough to count as a moral actor.

The point is that it's intelligent enough to realize we'll all die eventually and have no f***s left to give to whoever is next on the menu.

[javcs]

Given the auto-augment of the powers it is the single best "grants level-based pseudo-casting" template, IMO. Handily beats Half-Celestial and Half-Fiend, and I'd say it's solidly above Half-Fey too.

Is there any template that straight up grants casting? I can't recall any.

The fact that the powers you get augment as you level up isn't that big a thing.

They're not going to do much more than slightly tilt the scales in your direction in one or two fights a day, at best.

--

Templates that grant actual casting? ... I know that there's some third party templates that do that ...
There's one in Quintessential Elf ... gives you sorcerer casting, plus I think some druid list access.
It's doubtless that there's other templates in other third party stuff.

As far as WotC stuff ...
Does that Kobold-only ritual count? It gives you a level of sorcerer casting.
I think there's something in the Faerun stuff ... IIRC something to do with Mystra. Possibly one or two others.
I think that there might be some racial specific stuff in Eberron, probably for either dragons or giants.

...

Did WotC do the (World of) Warcraft books? Pretty sure that they had something that gave spellcasting or the next best thing. IIRC the Eternal template gave you a mess of SLAs up front plus additional SLAs every X HD that you had a free hand in choosing.


--
--


Phrenic is on the weak end of +2, IMO.

It's clearly a bit too much for a +1, but it is oriented towards benefiting caster/manifester types the most, yet two full casting/manifesting levels are a lot to give up - you're a full spell/power level behind. And you aren't really getting all that much out of it in the grand scheme of things.

Honestly, dual stat casters/manifesters get the most benefit, but then you're either even further behind because of the multiclassing, or you're in a casting/manifesting class that is at best T2 or more likely worse. There are three dual stat base caster classes I can think of offhand - Favored Soul(T2), Shadowcaster(T5?), and Savant (T4?).

--

I half think the +SLA templates would be better if they gave you those the spells for those SLAs as bonus spells known if you're a caster.

[Caelestion]

Still agree with +2, but I'm surprised by the sort of unenthusiastic response to Phrenic.

When Inevitable says that the LA will not changed, why bother discussing it extensively?

[OgresAreCute]

Monster of Legend gives 5th level cleric casting, among other things. It's printed in MM2 (go figure). There are also a bunch of simple class templates in PF that give limited casting if you use the ones based on casters.

Also, didn't see this mentioned: where does it say mind flayers have astral projection? I don't see it in the MM, and didn't see it in the errata either.

[javcs]

Monster of Legend gives 5th level cleric casting, among other things. It's printed in MM2 (go figure). There are also a bunch of simple class templates in PF that give limited casting if you use the ones based on casters.

Also, didn't see this mentioned: where does it say mind flayers have astral projection? I don't see it in the MM, and didn't see it in the errata either.

They had Astral Projection as an At Will SLA in 3.0. They lost it at some point and didn't have it anymore in the 3.5 MM1.

[MisterKaws]

They had Astral Projection as an At Will SLA in 3.0. They lost it at some point and didn't have it anymore in the 3.5 MM1.

They have it in Savage Species, which is always a problem with a the monsters that had troublesome abilities removed in 3.5. Succubus being the other major offender.

[GreatWyrmGold]

{Scrubbed}

[javcs]

They have it in Savage Species, which is always a problem with a the monsters that had troublesome abilities removed in 3.5. Succubus being the other major offender.

Savage Species is 3.0.

What did the succubus lose that was so troublesome?

[Elkad]

But still behind someone who went Half-Ogre Water Orc with a dip into PsiWar.

A psiwar dip doesn't get you teleport, fission, dominate, PR (and SR with transparency) at level+10 and a bunch of other goodies.

Sure, you'll be better at basic beatsticking. Phrenic picks up a bunch of utility.

Oh, and +2 is fine.

[danielxcutter]

...wait, if Duergar Expansion doesn't auto-scale, why would Phrenic? And for that matter, what about Dromite rays?

Edit: either way, though, those are some sweet PLAs.

[liquidformat]

...wait, if Duergar Expansion doesn't auto-scale, why would Phrenic? And for that matter, what about Dromite rays?

Edit: either way, though, those are some sweet PLAs.

I think we have had 3 or 4 arguments now on how PLAs scale, there is language here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/overview.htm#psiLikeAbilitiesAndFeats) that is ambiguous enough plus the fact that some powers are prescaled and others aren't that makes it ambiguous how they should work. Personally I am of the opinion that the only thing that scales on a power is DCs and damage nothing else. If everything can be scaled however you like then what is the point of the prescaled powers with an '*' and wording saying: 'Powers that can’t be augmented, or that are manifested at their normal minimum level, do not contain any special notations.'

During those arguments no one was able to refute this nor explain it, from my understanding a lot of people just want to ignore RAW since it makes PLAs less appealing...

[OgresAreCute]

They had Astral Projection as an At Will SLA in 3.0. They lost it at some point and didn't have it anymore in the 3.5 MM1.

In that case I'd say it's a little excessive to give them an asterisk for an ability they don't have anymore.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I think we have had 3 or 4 arguments now on how PLAs scale, there is language here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/overview.htm#psiLikeAbilitiesAndFeats) that is ambiguous enough plus the fact that some powers are prescaled and others aren't that makes it ambiguous how they should work. Personally I am of the opinion that the only thing that scales on a power is DCs and damage nothing else. If everything can be scaled however you like then what is the point of the prescaled powers with an '*' and wording saying: 'Powers that can’t be augmented, or that are manifested at their normal minimum level, do not contain any special notations.'

During those arguments no one was able to refute this nor explain it, from my understanding a lot of people just want to ignore RAW since it makes PLAs less appealing...
Let me see if I understand your confusion. You don't understand why, if PLAs got free augmentation, the PLA lists would usually include the effects of that augmentation right there where the DM can easily see it? Is that about right?

[liquidformat]

Let me see if I understand your confusion. You don't understand why, if PLAs got free augmentation, the PLA lists would usually include the effects of that augmentation right there where the DM can easily see it? Is that about right?

Let me clear up your confusion with bolded text of what I just posted: 'Powers that can’t be augmented, or that are manifested at their normal minimum level, do not contain any special notations.'

That seems pretty clear RAW right there. Powers that you can't augment (beyond aforementioned DC and damage) or that manifest at minimum level have no special notation. That seems like pretty clear RAW PLAs can only be augmented for DC and damage unless they have an '*' in which case the text explains how they will be augmented further...

[DeTess]

Let me clear up your confusion with bolded text of what I just posted: 'Powers that can’t be augmented, or that are manifested at their normal minimum level, do not contain any special notations.'

That seems pretty clear RAW right there. Powers that you can't augment (beyond aforementioned DC and damage) or that manifest at minimum level have no special notation. That seems like pretty clear RAW PLAs can only be augmented for DC and damage unless they have an '*' in which case the text explains how they will be augmented further...

This seems to assume that 'augmentations that increase the DC and/or damage' and 'augmentations that do other stuff' are fundamentally different things in psionics though. Or am I wrong here?

Edit: okay, I've taken an actual look at the link. I think there is an argument to be made for powers not being augmentable, but its not the one you seem to be making. The full relevant bit from the SRD is:


Each of a creature’s psi-like abilities has a manifester level. Each ability that allows a saving throw also gives a save DC in parentheses following the power name.

Powers that have increased effects due to augmentation include information about the effect. An asterisk indicates that the power has already been augmented by the creature’s innate ability.

Powers that can’t be augmented, or that are manifested at their normal minimum level, do not contain any special notations. Resolve the effect of manifesting the power without augmentation at the creature’s given manifester level.

The argument I could see is that any power not indicates by an asterisk is automatically manifest ed at their normal minimum level, and therefore do not gain any augmentations. However, if a PLA can be augmented, then there is no fundamental difference between augmentations that increase damage or that do anything else, such as increase duration or number of targets, right?

I'll be the first to admit I'm not expert on psionics, but I see no indication in the text you quoted that powers without an asterisk could only be augmented in some ways, but not in others.

[lord_khaine]

Is it time for another round of this?


During those arguments no one was able to refute this nor explain it, from my understanding a lot of people just want to ignore RAW since it makes PLAs less appealing...

And from my point of view you just want to ignore RAW because it makes PLAs more appealing..


Let me clear up your confusion with bolded text of what I just posted: 'Powers that can’t be augmented, or that are manifested at their normal minimum level, do not contain any special notations.'

That seems pretty clear RAW right there. Powers that you can't augment (beyond aforementioned DC and damage) or that manifest at minimum level have no special notation. That seems like pretty clear RAW PLAs can only be augmented for DC and damage unless they have an '*' in which case the text explains how they will be augmented further...

It was likely not commented on last time, because i dont see the point of this point.
We have explicit text telling us that "When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC."

So yes? Of course those powers without argumentation options, or who are manifested at their base level wont include a helpfull notation to remind the DM that this ability hits for more than the at times low base damage of said power.
Your basing the entirety of your case on Wizards for a change try to be helpful and make things easy for the DM.

[liquidformat]

This seems to assume that 'augmentations that increase the DC and/or damage' and 'augmentations that do other stuff' are fundamentally different things in psionics though. Or am I wrong here?

Edit: okay, I've taken an actual look at the link. I think there is an argument to be made for powers not being augmentable, but its not the one you seem to be making. The full relevant bit from the SRD is:



The argument I could see is that any power not indicates by an asterisk is automatically manifest ed at their normal minimum level, and therefore do not gain any augmentations. However, if a PLA can be augmented, then there is no fundamental difference between augmentations that increase damage or that do anything else, such as increase duration or number of targets, right?

I'll be the first to admit I'm not expert on psionics, but I see no indication in the text you quoted that powers without an asterisk could only be augmented in some ways, but not in others.

The comments about damage and save DC (also duration and range) is presented above in the same link:


All creatures with psi-like abilities are assigned a manifester level, which indicates how difficult it is to dispel their psi-like effects and determines all level-dependent variables (such as range or duration) the abilities might have. When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC. However, the creature does not actually spend power points for its psi-like abilities, even if it has a power point reserve due to racial abilities, class levels, or some other psionic ability.


Is it time for another round of this?



And from my point of view you just want to ignore RAW because it makes PLAs more appealing..



It was likely not commented on last time, because i dont see the point of this point.
We have explicit text telling us that "When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC."

So yes? Of course those powers without argumentation options, or who are manifested at their base level wont include a helpfull notation to remind the DM that this ability hits for more than the at times low base damage of said power.
Your basing the entirety of your case on Wizards for a change try to be helpful and make things easy for the DM.

This was the whole basis of the argument last time and I am pretty sure it was quoted a few times. And I am not sure how reading the text verbatim is 'ignoring RAW' As I said a power without an * can only have be augmented by DC and damage based on ML.

[jindra34]

This was the whole basis of the argument last time and I am pretty sure it was quoted a few times. And I am not sure how reading the text verbatim is 'ignoring RAW' As I said a power without an * can only have be augmented by DC and damage based on ML.

So what happens when you have a power on a template that has a manifester level based on the creatures HD and doesn't have augmentations that increase damage or DC, like say a buff spell? Because you are having a case where the rules say you have to treat it as having spent power points where it can't have spent those points.

[DeTess]

All creatures with psi-like abilities are assigned a manifester level, which indicates how difficult it is to dispel their psi-like effects and determines all level-dependent variables (such as range or duration) the abilities might have. When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC. However, the creature does not actually spend power points for its psi-like abilities, even if it has a power point reserve due to racial abilities, class levels, or some other psionic ability.

Okay, so I think the bolded part is what you're basing the argument that a power can only be augmented to increase the damage and save DC, right? Thing is, that's a may clause, not a must clause or even wording that suggests that that is the only way that powers may be augmented. If anything, it looks like a reminder that powers could change this way to me. Anyway, I'm not a rule expert, but I'm really not seeing the argument there.

[liquidformat]

Okay, so I think the bolded part is what you're basing the argument that a power can only be augmented to increase the damage and save DC, right? Thing is, that's a may clause, not a must clause or even wording that suggests that that is the only way that powers may be augmented. If anything, it looks like a reminder that powers could change this way to me. Anyway, I'm not a rule expert, but I'm really not seeing the argument there.

So I am looking at the totality; of the two entries in the first we have

'When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC.'

and in the second we have

'Powers that can’t be augmented, or that are manifested at their normal minimum level, do not contain any special notations.'

Together the rules seem to be saying that you can only boost DC and damage with your pretend PP. I am taking both of the general rules together to get a full understanding of how they function. In this case since giving an exhaustive list of what 'may not' be done would be a bit ridiculous and would require going through every power, they instead tell you what you 'may' do.


So what happens when you have a power on a template that has a manifester level based on the creatures HD and doesn't have augmentations that increase damage or DC, like say a buff spell? Because you are having a case where the rules say you have to treat it as having spent power points where it can't have spent those points.

They aren't real power points and they are there to be spent on damage and DC specifically, so in a case of a power with neither damage nor a dc ML only effects duration and range when applicable.

[lord_khaine]

'Powers that can’t be augmented, or that are manifested at their normal minimum level, do not contain any special notations.'

Together the rules seem to be saying that you can only boost DC and damage with your pretend PP. I am taking both of the general rules together to get a full understanding of how they function. In this case since giving an exhaustive list of what 'may not' be done would be a bit ridiculous and would require going through every power, they instead tell you what you 'may' do.


Except the bolded bit is not a rule or anything like that. Its just an explanation of the notation syste.
Its not all powers who can be argumented. And this just tells us that those powers do not contain any special notation.
Meanwhile, other powers, like for example the Brain Mole's Mind thrust, are manifested at the minimum manifester level (here 1).
So they dont contain any special notation, like its damage, either.

In comparison, the Caller in the Dark's Mind Thrust is manifested at ML 7, so it has a special notation telling it does 7d10 damage.
Thats all this rule says.


They aren't real power points and they are there to be spent on damage and DC specifically, so in a case of a power with neither damage nor a dc ML only effects duration and range when applicable.

Lastly, as an example of this does not only apply to damage or DC, we have the Intellect Devoures Body Adjustment, who are augumenter to heal 2d12.

[liquidformat]

Except the bolded bit is not a rule or anything like that. Its just an explanation of the notation syste.
Its not all powers who can be argumented. And this just tells us that those powers do not contain any special notation.
Meanwhile, other powers, like for example the Brain Mole's Mind thrust, are manifested at the minimum manifester level (here 1).
So they dont contain any special notation, like its damage, either.

In comparison, the Caller in the Dark's Mind Thrust is manifested at ML 7, so it has a special notation telling it does 7d10 damage.
Thats all this rule says.

I am not sure how you get to the conclusion that it isn't a rule, it is in the rules section and explains to you how you should read and understand a monster entry, that seems to fall straight into rules. And nothing you have given as an example contradicts the bolded statement.


Lastly, as an example of this does not only apply to damage or DC, we have the Intellect Devoures Body Adjustment, who are augumenter to heal 2d12.

So my position was anything without an '*' can only be augmented with damage and DCs based on what it says under Psi-Like Abilities entry. In cases where there is an * it augments the PLA however, it is explained to augment it. In no way does your example contradict that.

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, the Expansion PLA of psionic Duergar or the Inertial Armor PLA of psionic Githzerai don't *strictly* need augumenting, since even then that's more or less in line with the non-psionic versions. Dromites and Maenads absolutely need their rays to have auto-scaling, though.

[Inevitability]

Phthisic

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33186.jpg

Psionic trolls, named after... lung diseases? Between this and phrenic, I'm getting the impression someone at WotC dropped out of med school.

6 monstrous humanoid RHD, Large size, and some very good ability scores (23 strength, 12 dexterity, 21 constitution, 10 intelligence, 16 wisdom and charisma). Additionally, those guys get DR 10/magic, cold resistance 10, +8 natural armor. Most notably, they also get regeneration 5, overcome solely by fire and acid damage.

In terms of natural weapons, phthisics enjoy two claws and a bite. The latter also inflicts 1d4 points of intelligence damage, which is a largely irrelevant rider that I guess might still come up from time to time.

Finally, they get a variety of PLAs. 3/day Brain Lock is solid control, and Ego Whip, Dimension Slide, Mental Barrier, and 4d10 Mind Thrust certainly have their uses too. 1/day Body Adjustment is underwhelming, and 1/day Catapsi seems situational at best. Overall, their PLAs are a solid and relevant addition.

I guess the main question here would be whether phthisics can use weapons and tools normally. They seem to be bipedal and have thumbs, so for now I'll carefully assume that yes, they can.

Based on this assumption, their good PLAs, and their excellent chassis, in addition to full BAB RHD, phthisics are deserving of +1 LA in my opinion.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The nerve makes sense; psionics are brain powers, nerves are brainy bits. Or at least neural bits. But lung diseases? I'm starting to think WotC just started looking for weird words that started with 'p'.

[ViperMagnum357]

Phthisic: 6 Monstrous Humanoid RHD at least provide fill BAB, so a bruiser will not fall behind. 30ft is 10ft slower than average for a Large biped, but not a dealbreaker. Net abilities are +36, well above par, as is the natural AC. Forgettable DR and the PLAs are nothing to write home about, but you get Scent and decent Regeneration. Mind Feed is situational, but it has a 75% chance of OHKO'ing anything with Animal intelligence; not powerful enough to be worth building around since the Multiheaded template adds so much for each head.

Overall, the draw here is decent Regeneration on something with a decent bruiser chassis without garbage mental modifiers. I think the raw stats easily make up for the low speed, and the rest of the package is well worth eating the pile of mediocre RHD. Not a caster or skill monkey, but there is real bruiser potential here.

LA +0, and strong at that, unless I see convincing arguments otherwise.

[MisterKaws]

Definitely not a -0, at least. I'm conflicted between +0 and +1 because the creature ends up with fairly large stats if you consider the stats after you add PC ability scores and WBL. It could easily end up with over +20 attack bonus and AC 30, which makes it almost untouchable and overly accurate. Add in the large size and it might end up being very strong. I think it'd be easier to re-balance the ability scores and the defenses so that they aren't so overwhelming for the level. My vote is LA: +0*.


The nerve makes sense; psionics are brain powers, nerves are brainy bits. Or at least neural bits. But lung diseases? I'm starting to think WotC just started looking for weird words that started with 'p'.

They did that to all the other 25 letters too. At this point I think they might just have a team of employees who are paid to search through dictionaries for monster names.

[Caelestion]

The Troll got +1 LA, so the otherwise very similar Phthisic with its much better mental abilities and additional PLAs to boot can't possibly get less than that.

[StevenC21]

Honestly? I'm going with LA +1.

Those huge ability boosts will be an absolute monster when you take into account the fact that most PCs won't have stats of 10 and 11 across the board. Also, Intelligence damage is nothing to dismiss.

REVISION:

LA +0. They shouldn't lose 9th level maneuvers.

[Celestia]

I always thought the troll should have been a +0, and I think this one should be, as well. It's good at what it does, but it's not exceptional.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

It's also worth noting that +1 LA will cost them 9th level maneuvers.

[MisterKaws]

It's also worth noting that +1 LA will cost them 9th level maneuvers.

Though considering their natural inclination to Knockback-Dungeoncrasher, this isn't really much.

[ViperMagnum357]

I always thought the troll should have been a +0, and I think this one should be, as well. It's good at what it does, but it's not exceptional.

I agree-I would have given the Troll a low end LA +0 had I been voting back then.

[StevenC21]

I realize how crazy this sounds, but can we do the Epic Levels Handbook next? I think it might be fun to take a look at some of the most ridiculous creatures WoTC put out.

[ZamielVanWeber]

ELH will be an army of -0s. Done. I am tempted to +1. That bite auto wins encounters against low int creatures, such as all animals and some magical beasts.

Also phrenic makes sense: it is a super important nerve. My only guess for phthisic is that they used the original Greek meaning, as in a decayed part [of the mind] and forgot/did not realize that the word had already come to English.

[javcs]

I realize how crazy this sounds, but can we do the Epic Levels Handbook next? I think it might be fun to take a look at some of the most ridiculous creatures WoTC put out.

It would finish off the SRD. And the ELH would probably go pretty fast, what with all the blatant -0s.

[GreatWyrmGold]

They did that to all the other 25 letters too. At this point I think they might just have a team of employees who are paid to search through dictionaries for monster names.
Did they ever stick to one letter of the alphabet for a single system like this before or hence?



I realize how crazy this sounds, but can we do the Epic Levels Handbook next? I think it might be fun to take a look at some of the most ridiculous creatures WoTC put out.
It would be pretty much impossible to rate those without having some idea of how epic-level games should be balanced...which they aren't. Also, I'm pretty sure most would either be -0 or -0*.

[No brains]

It sort of looks like I should pronounce it "fish stick". The Elder Scrolls forums would be pleased.

On topic, that 1d4 int damage is going to trivialize any encounter with animals (tho 8RHD already does that). You can 1-shot dire tigers, leviathans, and go toe to toe with a mountain giant. Yes I'm leaning on some of the worst monsters from MM2, but it's still worth thinking about the breadth of enemies that can be downed in one bite.

[liquidformat]

So As things stand if we aren't going to change the troll who is at +1 with 7 giant rhd then the absolute minimum LA for Phthisic is +2, this is troll+ with less and better rhd so I can't see an argument for going any lower unless we edit the troll.

If we drop troll to +0 I still think this should be +1 since it is better than a troll with less and better rhd.

Also by virtue of being a monstrous humanoid these guys are proficient with simple weapons by virtue of rhd so their hands work just fine.

[Remuko]

I always thought the troll should have been a +0, and I think this one should be, as well. It's good at what it does, but it's not exceptional.

Agreed. +0 from me

[Efrate]

+1. It is a straight upgrade to a regular troll. Even if you go to troll as a +0, it's better all around and I think that is deserving the +1. Puts you as a great beatstick same level polymorph comes online which is a pretty noticeable power spike for anything that wants to smack things in melee. As good as 9th level maneuvers are I think martial adept with 8ths and the starter package is fine. It also builds into a pretty good dungeoncrasher/zhent fighter, and would be perfectly reasonable as an incarnum user.

[unseenmage]

Arguing that a previous mistake (troll at +1) justifies another mistake isnt a very solid argument.

+0 to this thing.

Because I'm judging it on it's own merits (or lack thereof) rather than justifying a choice with old data we've since learned better than.

EDIT sure, +0 for the troll

[Inevitability]

The Troll got +1 LA, so the otherwise very similar Phthisic with its much better mental abilities and additional PLAs to boot can't possibly get less than that.


I always thought the troll should have been a +0, and I think this one should be, as well. It's good at what it does, but it's not exceptional.


I agree-I would have given the Troll a low end LA +0 had I been voting back then.

So honestly, I feel like the troll would fall under 'very similar base monster that might deserve an update'.

Everyone, you can vote for the regular troll's LA again if you desire so. If you only vote on the phthisic's LA, I will assume you don't have a particular opinion on the troll, so keep that in mind.

[StevenC21]

I'll vote LA +0 for the troll.

[MisterKaws]

Did they ever stick to one letter of the alphabet for a single system like this before or hence?

That I know? No. Would I be surprised? Not at all.

+0 for Troll, by the way.

[liquidformat]

So using the classic water orc barb 2/warblade 4 or fighter 4 as baseline; troll is net 18, 2 bab behind however it has +4 str(+2 if water orc has enlarge person) so should hit the same as water orc (with 1 less attack), similar hp at ecl 6, +5 NA and +4 Dex give a nice defensive bonus, and takes a huge hit to all mental stats in exchange for regen 5.

Over all I think Troll just barely has enough to be a comparatively capable beatstick, your going to have better survivability but constantly be behind other martials in iteratives as well as prc entry which is a big deal. +0 LA for Troll seems reasonable for troll.

Now onto fish sick, it has full BAB with +12 str which puts it +4 above standard water orc and +2 above enlarged water orc; either way that is a decent jump in power. +8 NA and +2 Dex so it should have a net +9 to ac compared to a water orc barbarian with enlarge person also mental barrier gives an decent bonus in a pinch. At ECL 6 a water orc barb 2/warblade 4 should have comparative hp but will outpace the water orc in a level placed in a comparative build. All of its mental stats are better and with +6 wis and two good saves you can expect to outperform the barbarian in the save department. Brain Lock, Mind Thrust and Ego whip give you some handy ranged attacks with no added effort and dimension slide gives some nice tactical maneuverability. When you add in DR 10 Res Cold 10, scent and regen 5 you have a pretty good build right out of the block. It is a great candidate for Runescarred Berserker and with +0 can easily enter at the same time as the water orc. It also does well with a psychic Warrior dip though it doesn't need it.

Across the board Phthisic is better than a water orc barb 2/warblade 4 or even a ater orc warblade 6, heck it is better than water orc dragon born barb 2/warblade 4 which normally gets a book thrown at you for asking. I think +1 LA for fish sick

[DeTess]

+1LA for this creature. pretty good stats, full BaB and a set of PLA's that are a pretty good substitute for class features puts it over the border for +0 for me.

[Zaq]

I’m on the border between +1 and +0. The PLAs aren’t bad but don’t scale. The numbers are reasonably numbery, I guess. Regen is good to have.

This doesn’t affect my judgment of the LA, but does anyone else think it’s weird that the phthisic’s mind thrust is explicitly at a lower ML than its other PLAs?

I can see the argument that this is stronger than the troll; it clearly is. I can also see the argument that the troll is overvalued.

Quick back-of-the-envelope sketch vs. something ECL 0... better numbers than a human psychic warrior, but the human will scale better. Beats a human barbarian pretty handily, especially once the phthisic takes a single barb level and also gets pounce. Slightly comparable to human duskblade—higher base numbers, lower spike damage, vaguely similar back-pocket utility. I think the duskblade is the closest comparison. The human will scale better, but the phthisic isn’t put to shame.

I’m currently okay with +1 as a recognition that the numbers and the PLAs are fairly reasonable for 6 RHD but then the regen gives you just a bit more than you can reasonably pick up with 6 class levels (while still getting anything comparable to the non-regen tricks the phthisic has).

[Thurbane]

I'm not comfortable assigning an LA due to my lack of psioinics knowledge, but I do have to comment on the Phthisic: it made it to my list of worst monster names in 3.5.

I challenge anyone to read it out loud without sounding like Daffy Duck. :smallmad:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xrw0gbnNuU

[danielxcutter]

Okay, that Int damage doesn't have a save?! Wow, anything that can make enemies into dumbasses via extreme nommings is pretty amusing, regardless of power.

[Elkad]

Ickfish. I'm in at a solid to high +1. Great stats, including mentals (Paladin?), full BAB, and the powers are just a bonus. Sure, they aren't great, but they have uses (well maybe not body adjustment, other than fixing a bit of fire damage)
Int bite gives an auto-win vs animals, and it's a free secondary attack with a nice rider the rest of the time.
Even if fights are so fast Regeneration doesn't matter, it still saves using any resources on healing, which has it's own value on a PC.

Troll revisited. I still think this is worth a +1. Lower end of the scale, but there.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'm not comfortable assigning an LA due to my lack of psioinics knowledge, but I do have to comment on the Phthisic: it made it to my list of worst monster names in 3.5.

I challenge anyone to read it out loud without sounding like Daffy Duck. :smallmad:

The H's are silent. You can pronounce it ptisic or tisic. This should make it simpler.

Also count me in for the troll at +0. Sticking to +1 for this cutie though.

[Lans]

Honestly? I'm going with LA +1.

Those huge ability boosts will be an absolute monster when you take into account the fact that most PCs won't have stats of 10 and 11 across the board. Also, Intelligence damage is nothing to dismiss.

REVISION:

LA +0. They shouldn't lose 9th level maneuvers.

Losing 9th level maneuvers isn't like losing losing 9th level spells.

Flesh Ripper is a full round action save or die melee attack.
Mountain Stone Strike is essentially 3-4*targets HD in damage.
Shadow Hand is Save or possibly be inconvenienced
Tornado Throw is ???
Time stand stills effect is comparable to a fighter with the weapon supremacy line.
The other 3 seem pretty good but not ground breaking

[Remuko]

So honestly, I feel like the troll would fall under 'very similar base monster that might deserve an update'.

Everyone, you can vote for the regular troll's LA again if you desire so. If you only vote on the phthisic's LA, I will assume you don't have a particular opinion on the troll, so keep that in mind.

+0 for the old troll on top of my vote for the Phthisic

[Caelestion]

If we classify both the troll and the phthisic as both LA +0, we are actively conceding that level adjustments are a joke and there is no point to this entire exercise.


The H's are silent. You can pronounce it ptisic or tisic. This should make it simpler.

I think it's closer to say that either the PH or the TH are silent. I've found fisikos, thigh-sick and thisik.

[danielxcutter]

Losing 9th level maneuvers isn't like losing losing 9th level spells.

Flesh Ripper is a full round action save or die melee attack.
Mountain Stone Strike is essentially 3-4*targets HD in damage.
Shadow Hand is Save or possibly be inconvenienced
Tornado Throw is ???
Time stand stills effect is comparable to a fighter with the weapon supremacy line.
The other 3 seem pretty good but not ground breaking

Tornado Throw and Flesh Ripper are highly dependent on certain statistics - the former on movement speed and trip modifiers, the latter on the target being vulnerable to crits and a high Strength(and possibly whether you grabbed Blade Meditation(Tiger Claw) or not). Meh if you don't, but possible to boost like whao.