What's the ECL of a Natural Weretiger Cohort, In Your Opinion

[TheYell]

My DM should be fine with my obtaining the services of a weretiger monk as a cohort for the Leadership feat, but I'd have to know it's Effective Character Level to know how many levels of monk it can have.

The given stats for a weretiger

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/lycanthrope/weretiger/

show a human rogue 4 that gains 10 STR and 5 CON in hybrid form, and retains all its class abilities. Also it grows from Medium to Large.
So if that's the kind of stat gain I don't think a simple CR +1 for Lycanthrope template is adequate.

My personal guesstimate is an ECL of 5 and then add monk levels to that to bring it up to my cohort ECL. Thoughts?

[Selion]

I don't understand why he gets +10 str +5 con, the lychantrope template states he'd get just +2 to all physical stats.
I guess these are stats of some custom npc from a published adventure, i don't think you can use them extrapolating a template

[TheYell]

well the weretiger stats say they come from Bestiary 2 in 2010.
I don't see where the Lycanthrope template comes from, perhaps Blood of the Moon (2013)?

So I can only build a weaker lycanthrope than the NPC stats? I can see that argument being made, but it seems really odd to me to publish a stat block and say "Here's a weretiger. Don't copy it."

[Gnaeus]

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l1ze?Natural-Lycanthrope-PC

His str doesn’t specifically go up by 10. It matches the tiger strength because it is higher than human strength. It is CR5 because Lycanthrope Cr is borked. A weretiger commoner 1 would also be CR5. Because it is base creature or animal whichever is higher +1. It just so happens that the CR of rogue 4= tiger so it’s 5 either way and the 4 rogue levels don’t count against its Cr.

[TheYell]

Thanks for the links! It starts to make sense now.

[TheYell]

Melding this out, it does seem unfair to give it an ECL matching a 5 CR. Consider the derhii, which is just a flying ape without DR, and its a ECL 10. I'm going to propose an ECL of 8 and add monk levels to that.

[upho]

Melding this out, it does seem unfair to give it an ECL matching a 5 CR. Consider the derhii, which is just a flying ape without DR, and its a ECL 10. I'm going to propose an ECL of 8 and add monk levels to that.Whoa, hold your horses there! You realize what you're actually saying here is that a weretiger monk 1 is approximately as great a threat as a level 9 monk?

The issue with the lycanthrope template's CR rating is that it doesn't really account for the potentially substantial power increase provided by the base animal's stats and abilities. But the template is not even remotely close to adding as much "power" as that of 8 class levels, as it won't just delay special class features, but also decrease the standard hd-related stuff like hp, skill points, feats, save bonuses etc. In addition, the templates were never really intended for PCs or other creatures "built" by players.

I suggest you look at how much of an improvement the template provides in this specific case - this weretiger monk - and compare this to what is provided by "X" number of monk class levels (including all the things hd provide). In essence, make two cohorts, one with the template and one without it, then compare the two, and finally decrease the number of monk levels the weretiger cohort gets until it's of roughly equal power level to that of the non-templated monk cohort. It may very well be a good idea to also lessen the value of "X" further up the levels, in a manner similar to those detailed in the old "Monsters as PCs" rules (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/#Monsters_as_PCs).

[TheYell]

I suggest you look at how much of an improvement the template provides in this specific case - this weretiger monk - and compare this to what is provided by "X" number of monk class levels (including all the things hd provide). In essence, make two cohorts, one with the template and one without it, then compare the two, and finally decrease the number of monk levels the weretiger cohort gets until it's of roughly equal power level to that of the non-templated monk cohort. It may very well be a good idea to also lessen the value of "X" further up the levels, in a manner similar to those detailed in the old "Monsters as PCs" rules.

Sound advice and a good way to generate a paper trail to demonstrate my point when the time comes. I'll do that, but off the top of my head, being able to transform at will and on demand into a Large monk with +7 damage (23 STR of a tiger +2 STR of lycanthrope), with a DR 10/silver, and +4 AC (+5 natural armor, -1 size) is worth a couple levels of monk at least. I don't see its ECL being less than its CR 5. I do think it fair to compare contrast a regular monk cohort, with the hybrid monk cohort of the weretiger. Werebears and weretigers transform into Large hybrids.

Some might wonder that I can feel confident the GM will allow me a cohort of undefined power. She's really flexible on this regard, even allowing 3rd party stuff for our eventual cohorts, so I want to take advantage of this fun opportunity. I just need to be reasonable and accurate with her, and upho's process will help demonstrate it.

Backstory wise, this will be a cohort sent by my character's father to drag her back home to service as consecrated. He will be shocked at her actual power, having been told she's just somebody's courtesan. If she'll agree to return when she's finished her current quest, he'll help her finish it. (He'll be LN).

[upho]

Sound advice and a good way to generate a paper trail to demonstrate my point when the time comes. I'll do that, but off the top of my head, being able to transform at will and on demand into a Large monk with +7 damage (23 STR of a tiger +2 STR of lycanthrope), with a DR 10/silver, and +4 AC (+5 natural armor, -1 size) is worth a couple levels of monk at least. I don't see its ECL being less than its CR 5.Only you and your GM can actually answer this, but I wouldn't be so certain about it being equal to 5 extra monk levels, and I'm certain I wouldn't say so if I was forced to consider it for a more general, less build-specific, purpose. I mean, those monk levels grant for example:

likely at least 33 extra hp (the weretiger's higher Con will likely only be able to get 30 of these back over the course of 15 levels)
2 additional feats (can for example be Pummeling Charge and Horn of the Criosphinx for an unarmed pounce with Str x2 damage bonus and the x3 "two-handed" Power Attack bonus to all hits)
2 additional monk bonus feats (might be for example Improved Critical and Improved Trip)
+4 bab (granting access to better feats, an extra +2 or +3 damage per hit from Power Attack, and typically an additional iterative attack)
ends up with +3 to all saves (at least +2 during all levels), which is probably more than the additional save bonuses provided by the weretiger's higher stats
unarmed strikes with a damage die larger than those of the weretiger's natural attacks no later than 11th level, earlier with a monk's robe (max 6d8 vs. the weretiger's max 4d6 claws and 6d6 bite)

The above is assuming the monk doesn't go for any of the significantly less underwhelming archetypes, not to mention the unchained version, instead of the awful "chained" vanilla monk. Or takes levels in one or more other classes to gain much more.

All that said, yes, the combat gains alone from the template are potentially very substantial. Especially if optimized with the intent of maximizing DPR, and especially if going for a Str-based natural attack "supercharger". Such a build type/combat style can already become a more terrifying one-shot monster-mower than any other, and the weretiger sure adds plenty of support for precisely such shenanigans. (Although of course classes like the barbarian or bloodrager would be far more able to capitalize on that support than the poor vanilla monk is.) And outside of combat, especially the change shape ability can of course be great in many common types of adventuring challenges, especially in the hands of a creative player.

(And I do think the minimum starting ECL should be at least 5, as per the dire tiger's CR +1.)


Some might wonder that I can feel confident the GM will allow me a cohort of undefined power. She's really flexible on this regard, even allowing 3rd party stuff for our eventual cohorts, so I want to take advantage of this fun opportunity. I just need to be reasonable and accurate with her, and upho's process will help demonstrate it.IME, this kind of "allowing GM and responsible players" deal is definitely the way to go whenever possible. Very commendable. Just take care to explain your cohort's actual potential beyond the numbers if needed, saving your GM from having to decipher the net effects of complex combos.