Paladin tank direction Single class or multiclass?

[tanek19]

I am playing a campaign as a Dragonborn paladin who is on a mission for bahamut to stop a dragon cultist clan from bringing the dragon queen into the world.

I play the party tank, currently lvl 2 but just lvled to 3.

My stats are: 17STR, 13DEX, 15CON, 9 INT, 9WIS, 16CHA

At lvl 2 I picked up the defensive fighting style bumping my armor class to 21. We tend to fight large groups of humans, kobolds, and drakes.

I am wondering what direction I should take. I like the idea of SORC or HEXBLADE to gain access to the Shield spell as I tend to get surrounded and attacked a lot causing me to drop before I even get a change to do anything.

Any thoughts? My goal is to be as strong a tank as possible, absorbing hits, or not getting hit. My only notable item thus far is a dancing longsword.

.............................................

Since posting this I have picked Divine Soul Sorcerer, so I am lvl2 Paladin and lvl1Divine Soul, additionally I have picked up a +3 shield so I am now at 22 armor without spells.

How long of a dip in Divine Soul do I stay before going back to paladin or should I now dip 1 point into hex? My only concern is my character is neutral good so some of the class ideas provided wouldn't work (such as oath of the chained)

[zinycor]

Have you considered Barbarian?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Rogue has an ability to halve the damage of an attack. Not sure its totally worth the multi-class dip.

[ProsecutorGodot]

There are (at least) 3 directions you can take tanking as a Paladin. Each has its own strength and weaknesses. Here's a general guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?375696-Good-is-Not-Nice-A-Paladin-s-Guide) on playing the Paladin.

-Conquest Paladin: Gives you strong area control past level 7. If you decide to go this route you benefit greatly from taking a dip into Hexblade and maxing your Charisma early. You make ample use of Wrathful smite to make sure as many enemies as possible are afraid of you. Here's a guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?543427-The-Wall-of-Fear-A-Complete-Guide-to-the-Oath-of-Conquest) on playing this subclass for more in depth information.

-Ancients Paladin: The most straightforward tanking Paladin build, you just focus on survival and staying as close to your allies as possible. As far as I'm aware there isn't an in depth guide to playing one of these, it's just simple durability.

-Redemption Paladin: More of a support than a tank, you focus primarily on your own hit points and using them as a resource to keep your allies alive. It's similar to the Conquest Paladin in ability score requirements but almost the polar opposite in playstyle. Instead of actively being aggressive against enemies to mitigate damage though fear you use your reaction to take the damage an ally would have taken. Here's a guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583098-Violence-as-a-Last-Resort-A-Guide-to-the-Oath-of-Redemption-Paladin) (that I wrote) for playing this subclass. Keep in mind that this is a more supportive subclass and I would recommend the Ancients or Conquest subclass as a tank first and foremost.

I'll also link to the Sorcadin Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass&highlight=unlimited+blade+works) because it does have information on playing a Sorcerer Paladin multiclass as a tank if that suits your interests.

[djreynolds]

I am playing a campaign as a Dragonborn paladin who is on a mission for bahamut to stop a dragon cultist clan from bringing the dragon queen into the world.

I play the party tank, currently lvl 2 but just lvled to 3.

My stats are: 17STR, 13DEX, 15CON, 9 INT, 9WIS, 16CHA

At lvl 2 I picked up the defensive fighting style bumping my armor class to 21. We tend to fight large groups of humans, kobolds, and drakes.

I am wondering what direction I should take. I like the idea of SORC or HEXBLADE to gain access to the Shield spell as I tend to get surrounded and attacked a lot causing me to drop before I even get a change to do anything.

Any thoughts? My goal is to be as strong a tank as possible, absorbing hits, or not getting hit. My only notable item thus far is a dancing longsword.

Thanks for the help!

Good idea, I would grab sorcerer.... and though you will not get much out of it... draconic for thematic reasons

Cannot beat a possible 26AC with plate, shield, shield spell and defensive style

Also, don't be afraid to take the dodge action

[Trickery]

You're probably best off sticking with pure Paladin until level 6 at least. You don't want to delay your extra attack or enhanced saving throws.

However, if you want to multiclass now, then sorcerer will allow you to pick up Shield and Absorb Elements. Both of these are good defensive spells. In my opinion, Divine Soul Sorcerer is your best option. It gives you an extra spell known, greatly increases your spell list to choose from, and gives you +2d4 to one saving throw per short rest. The defensive potential of a Divine Soul Sorcerer / Paladin is legendary, and you can take a one-level dip now to get massive benefits that will help you make it to Paladin 6.

Just for fun, you can also take the Resistance cantrip for your Divine Soul Sorcerer, if you choose this multiclass. Once you hit level 6, you'll have +CHA to saves. Consider +3 or +4 to all saves, +2d4 to one save per short rest, and potentially an additional 1d4 from pre-cast Resistance, and you can swing a saving throw by up to 16 points. Even if you rolled a 2, you might still pass.

[Chaelos]

I would go solo Ancients or Devotion Paladin until either level 6 or level 8 (depending on how ASI-dependent you are and whether your level 7 Aura is worth it), then multiclass into Divine Soul Sorcerer (for Shield, Absorb Elements, a decent ranged cantrip, etc.). You'll want Warcaster if your DM is a stickler about distinguishing Somatic vs. Material components, and you'll want the Defensive Fighting Style. You may also want Polearm Master if you like getting an extra smite in every turn, and the spear + shield combo is iconic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplite).

[Guy Lombard-O]

You're probably best off sticking with pure Paladin until level 6 at least. You don't want to delay your extra attack or enhanced saving throws.

However, if you want to multiclass now, then sorcerer will allow you to pick up Shield and Absorb Elements. Both of these are good defensive spells. In my opinion, Divine Soul Sorcerer is your best option. It gives you an extra spell known, greatly increases your spell list to choose from, and gives you +2d4 to one saving throw per short rest. The defensive potential of a Divine Soul Sorcerer / Paladin is legendary, and you can take a one-level dip now to get massive benefits that will help you make it to Paladin 6.

Second this. Also, considering the multitude of enemies you're probably going to be facing, and the fact that you want to be tankier (and your odd Str stat), I'd suggest taking Heavy Armor Master at 4. I think you'll get better mileage out of that feat than most would.

[SteelArcana]

If it was me I'd probably just go pure paladin in your scenario. As was previously mentioned, you can't really go wrong with an Oath of Ancients Paladin. At some stage I'd recommend taking resilient con regardless of your paladin oath because so many of the paladin's offensive spells and self buffs rely on concentration, and you're going to get hit constantly.

Another option you might want to consider is the Oath of Vengeance. While it doesn't have the spell resistance aura that Ancients does, it has excellent self buffs and is unparalleled (at least in terms of pure paladins) in its ability to inflict the best status condition in the game; death.

Something that is not often mentioned about the Ancients Paladin is that the spell resistance aura doesn't work for innate abilities like dragon breath attacks, because they're not technically spells. If you think you're going to be facing a lot of those, that might be something to strongly consider.

[Waazraath]

Second single class ancients.

[Man_Over_Game]

Also adding in the fact that pure Paladin, going Ancients, is going to be your best bet for tankiness. Multiclassing into caster levels seems like a smart idea, but it delays your tankiness features while also causing you to gain less HP than taking Paladin levels would.

[tanek19]

Thank you all for your insight and advice, I ended up doing a 1 lvl dip into divine soul. I understand the concept of sticking pure paladin but based on how our adventures have been going thus far, the shield spell is almost a must. Now do I go back and continue paladin all the way up or should I go deeper into divine soul or grab another class as well?

[Nagog]

Rogue has an ability to halve the damage of an attack. Not sure its totally worth the multi-class dip.



Also, don't be afraid to take the dodge action

You could pick up a bit of Rogue to allow you to disengage as a bonus action, effectively comboing these two suggestions by taking the Dodge action early (Perhaps taking the Alert feat to prevent surprise rounds from taking you out), then when the round is over and you lose the dodge bonus, you can attack with your action (throwing in a few smites perhaps), then disengage if you feel you'd be unable to survive without the Dodge bonus. Also with the Expertise granted by Rogue levels combined with your high Charisma could make you both the tank and party face.

[sithlordnergal]

So, as a Paladin tank myself, I fully suggest snagging some levels of Sorcerer. Personally I would go for Divine Soul Sorcerer, since it has a lot to offer, and take Shield and Absorb Elements. That nets you 26 potential AC without any magic items, and if you do find magic armor then it just gets better from there. If you can find it, a +3 shield, +1 plate, and Cloak of Displacement nets you a base 25 AC, which is boosted to 30 with Shield, and disadvantage on attack rolls from the Cloak. Though a Cloak of Protection works equally well, giving you +1 to AC and Saves.

Just make sure you go at least 6 levels into Paladin, 8 if you're an Ancients. Which I do highly recommend since Ancients Paladins are the tankiest Pallys around

[Speely]

Some good advice already given here. Here's a curveball: don't multiclass. The auras you receive are crazy useful, and at lvl 11 your damage gets a nice uptick aside from spending spell slots for Divine Smite. I mean, you basically get a free lvl 1 Divine Smite every turn (Edit: more with PAM.) Also, preventing your own death isn't hard as a paladin looking to soak up/mitigate damage, but it's even more useful to help your whole party via your auras and on-demand healing. At 18, those auras extend to a 30' radius and you have like 90 points of healing to spread around. That's huge.

I feel like Paladins shine when they tread the line between versatile capability and party usefulness. Sure, dead enemies help the whole party, but when those dead enemies happen due to one person min-maxing rather than a group effort, it's not as fun for the table. Paladins have a really fun potential to mix group and personal capabilities, and they can do it all within one class.

[Mercurias]

I'd ride Paladin solo class through level 6 in order to get your aura and second attack. I would personally go for a Crown Pally for its spell list and tank features.

At level 7, I would grab Shadow Sorcerer. Shadow Sorcs grant you free, really nice Darkvision and some other nice attributes like being able to drop a Darkness Spell with sorcery points when you get in a pinch in melee. I feel like Crown and Shadow Sorc are a pretty solid combo for survival, utility, and tanking.

[GreyBlack]

I am playing a campaign as a Dragonborn paladin who is on a mission for bahamut to stop a dragon cultist clan from bringing the dragon queen into the world.

I play the party tank, currently lvl 2 but just lvled to 3.

My stats are: 17STR, 13DEX, 15CON, 9 INT, 9WIS, 16CHA

At lvl 2 I picked up the defensive fighting style bumping my armor class to 21. We tend to fight large groups of humans, kobolds, and drakes.

I am wondering what direction I should take. I like the idea of SORC or HEXBLADE to gain access to the Shield spell as I tend to get surrounded and attacked a lot causing me to drop before I even get a change to do anything.

Any thoughts? My goal is to be as strong a tank as possible, absorbing hits, or not getting hit. My only notable item thus far is a dancing longsword.

Thanks for the help!

Hoard of the Dragon Queen, eh?

I would go full Paladin personally. There's some really fun loot available for melee warriors so it might behoove you to not gimp your HP too much.

[Sception]

For a tank paladin, I like oath of conquest with a 1-3 level dip in hexblade starting at level 10, then back to paladin till 13, the finish with any combination of paladin, hexblade, celestial sorcerer, or swords bard.

For something simpler and less morally dubious try ancients or redemption paladin 7, grabbing sentinel at level 4, followed by any number of paladin & celestial sorcerer levels in any order.

...

Tanking isn't just about you surviving, it's about the party surviving because you're mitigating, negating, or if necessary absorbing enemy attacks. If the enemy would attack you, but they know they can't hit you because you just cast shield, then they're going to walk away from you (you don't even get an opp attack because you already cast shield) to beat up on another party member with a lower ac and fewer hit points, and that isnt good tanking.

Conquest pally gets around this with fear effects & an aura that locks frightened enemies down so they can't walk off to target your allies, and even if they have ranged attacks they'll be making them with disadvantage. Of course, conquerors are basically bullies, which doesn't square super well with a good adventuring party, but then again you are playing a dragonborn follower of bahamut, and even the good aligned metallic dragonkin are often territorial, domineering, & frighteningly possessive of the people & possessions they care about, so you could probably make it fit.

If not going conqueror, again ancients & redeemer work well here, ancients especially if you expect a lot of spellcasting enemies, but be sure to pick up the sentinel feat at your earliest opportunity, before warcaster or stat ups, as it's your best tool for holding aggro on at least one enemy at a time. Honestly even conquerors should consider the feat to tank fearless foes, though maxing out their frighten DCs and shoring up their concentration saves are generally higher priorities.

[Talionis]

I suggest Hexblade Warlock Oath of the Chain for a tank. The Chain only Invocation that allows all healing to be maximized for you if your Familiar is near helps you to refill your hit points more efficiently than anyone else in the party. It’s a three level Warlock dip but you also get Familiars advantage on checks against spells. Hexblade means you are less SAD.

Magic Stones and Branding Smite give you a little ranged. Attacks also totally based on Charisma.

[Nagog]

For a tank paladin, I like oath of conquest with a 1-3 level dip in hexblade starting at level 10, then back to paladin till 13, the finish with any combination of paladin, hexblade, celestial sorcerer, or swords bard.

For something simpler and less morally dubious try ancients or redemption paladin 7, grabbing sentinel at level 4, followed by any number of paladin & celestial sorcerer levels in any order.

...

Tanking isn't just about you surviving, it's about the party surviving because you're mitigating, negating, or if necessary absorbing enemy attacks. If the enemy would attack you, but they know they can't hit you because you just cast shield, then they're going to walk away from you (you don't even get an opp attack because you already cast shield) to beat up on another party member with a lower ac and fewer hit points, and that isnt good tanking.

Conquest pally gets around this with fear effects & an aura that locks frightened enemies down so they can't walk off to target your allies, and even if they have ranged attacks they'll be making them with disadvantage. Of course, conquerors are basically bullies, which doesn't square super well with a good adventuring party, but then again you are playing a dragonborn follower of bahamut, and even the good aligned metallic dragonkin are often territorial, domineering, & frighteningly possessive of the people & possessions they care about, so you could probably make it fit.

If not going conqueror, again ancients & redeemer work well here, ancients especially if you expect a lot of spellcasting enemies, but be sure to pick up the sentinel feat at your earliest opportunity, before warcaster or stat ups, as it's your best tool for holding aggro on at least one enemy at a time. Honestly even conquerors should consider the feat to tank fearless foes, though maxing out their frighten DCs and shoring up their concentration saves are generally higher priorities.

These are really good choices, although I'd also add Oath of Treachery to the list. Its UA and eventually became the Cleric's Trickery Domain, but if your DM is good with using UA, that could be a good choice to grant you the duplicate. If they aren't (and perhaps even if they are, not I think about it), dipping a single level into Cleric for the duplicate could be quite useful, as your duplicate can move around and heal, while real you tanks damage and attacks. If you multiclass for it, I'd go Oath of Conquest, as having a duplicate that looks exactly like you could be very useful combined with the aura of fear. It may not make sense in RAW but the narrative may work to have 2 sources of fear.


I suggest Hexblade Warlock Oath of the Chain for a tank. The Chain only Invocation that allows all healing to be maximized for you if your Familiar is near helps you to refill your hit points more efficiently than anyone else in the party. It’s a three level Warlock dip but you also get Familiars advantage on checks against spells. Hexblade means you are less SAD.

Magic Stones and Branding Smite give you a little ranged. Attacks also totally based on Charisma.

While that Invocation makes Chain a decent choice, the Paladin healing isn't based on a roll so it's already maximized for him. If there is also a Cleric in the party using healing spells on him, this could be a nifty buff, but there may be more lost than gained here as far as tanking goes, although Hexblade's Curse would help with damage output

[Wuzza]

Since posting this I have picked Divine Soul Sorcerer, so I am lvl2 Paladin and lvl1Divine Soul, additionally I have picked up a +3 shield so I am now at 22 armor without spells.


+3 Shield at lvl 3? Buy your DM a 6 pack. :smallbiggrin:

The good news is it sounds like your DM has noticed your struggles, although nerfing the mobs slightly might have been a better way to go imo.

[pdegan2814]

Paladins in my opinion have a pretty steady progression of good abilities, you can do just fine as a tank without multiclassing. Especially with Oath Of The Ancients, their aura is just awesome.

A +3 shield and you're just now going from Level 2 to Level 3? That's insane. Most of the time you aren't looking at Very Rare magic items until your level is in the teens.

[tanek19]

The shield is non-magical, just a fine steel shield (or something like that, dont have access to my character atm as it is on fantasy ground)

So there was a dragon attacking the town that the DM figured would wipe out the town. As a paladin on a quest from bahamut I reached out to the dragon to aide our party against the dragon cultists who were also attacking and rolled a natural 20... He had the dragon commune with me and the dragon refused to aide us but left as he did not want to anger bahamut even though he was aiding the cultists to free the dragon queen...

When in town at the blacksmith I didnt have enough money for the shield so I used persuasion highlighting that I understood that the shield was beyond my means and that I was concerned for my further journey fighting more of the cultists who had plundered the town. Rolling a natural 20 again on that roll he offered me the shield for the measly 100gold I had...

It worked out due to the luck of the dice...

[ProsecutorGodot]

The shield is non-magical, just a fine steel shield (or something like that, dont have access to my character atm as it is on fantasy ground)

So there was a dragon attacking the town that the DM figured would wipe out the town. As a paladin on a quest from bahamut I reached out to the dragon to aide our party against the dragon cultists who were also attacking and rolled a natural 20... He had the dragon commune with me and the dragon refused to aide us but left as he did not want to anger bahamut even though he was aiding the cultists to free the dragon queen...

When in town at the blacksmith I didnt have enough money for the shield so I used persuasion highlighting that I understood that the shield was beyond my means and that I was concerned for my further journey fighting more of the cultists who had plundered the town. Rolling a natural 20 again on that roll he offered me the shield for the measly 100gold I had...

It worked out due to the luck of the dice...

I'm not sure how it becomes a +3 shield without being magical. No amount of material changing or mundane craftsmanship is going to make a shield more than twice as effective as a regular type. I'd be checking that thing up and down for curses if it was put in front of me like that, it's an absolutely insane defensive boost to have at level 2.

That's the cynical part of me thinking, it could just be that your DM is the overly generous sort who wants the party worrying more about the story than the mechanics. Just be aware that most players would be openly salivating at the prospect of a +3 shield at any level prior to 17-20. It's a huge pickup, polish that thing, keep it protected and don't ever damage it.

[tanek19]

The shield only has 3ac so wouldnt it be essentially a +1 2 ac shield making it 3ac?

[ProsecutorGodot]

The shield only has 3ac so wouldnt it be essentially a +1 2 ac shield making it 3ac?

That would explain that misunderstanding then, it's a +1 shield. Items written with +x modifiers don't generally include their default statistics in that calculation. However, your AC calculation still looks like it includes Plate Armor, which is also something a level 2 character shouldn't normally expect. You've got quite a generous DM.

19 is closer to what I would expect a character of that level to be at, Chainmail (16) Defense (1) and Shield (2).

Now that we know that it's just a +1 Shield, 100gp for that (while still pretty cheap) is within the acceptable price range. Affording Plate Mail (1500gp) is pretty far out though. Even Splint (200gp) is high end for a starting character, usually only something you could get taking Starting Wealth and foregoing most other items.

At the point you're at now, you're pretty set to do what you like as far as tanking goes. My 15th level Paladin doesn't even reach 22 AC and he's covered in magical items at this point.

[tanek19]

Yeah I believe he is generous as we have some fairly inconsistent players and even when they are all their they dont always participate much (family game through Fantasy grounds). It tends to be me and my wife alone rather frequently as others leave early...