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Aergentum
2019-07-08, 03:38 AM
Ok, my question is not entirely linked to the D&D setting and ruleset but also about the "meaning" of the word and the context behind it.

A little bit of context on why I'm making such a question. I'm not english native speaker even though I manage to read it and understand it fairly well. I bought all 5e manuals in english, but a few years back WotC decided to translate some of the books in in italian. I decided not to buy them again and just stick with the english ones.

The other day I took a glimpse on the italian version of the Player's Handbook from a friend and it struck me that the name of the Warlock class was left as it was, while others like Wizard and Sorcerer were translated as Mago and Stregone.
I talked about it with some friends and we agreed that probably in english Wizard, Sorcerer and Warlock are all words to describe magic wielders whith some differences, while in italian we have just two (and usually Wizard/Mago is used to intend good mages, and Sorcerer/Stregone to intend evil doers).

So, there is my question: english speakers, what is the difference in meaning between Wizard, Sorcerer and Warlock? Where do these different words come from?

Lord Raziere
2019-07-08, 03:49 AM
Wizard: guy who uses magic because they read books

Sorcerer: guy who uses magic because they're born with it.

Warlock: guy who uses magic because the made a deal with a spirit.

there is no moral implications to any of this and all three can be of any alignment. those are the DnD definitions of those three classes.

where they come from is a completely different discussion altogether and these classes likely only has superficial if any resemblance to their historical/folkloric/mythological depictions of them, like everything else in DnD.

oxybe
2019-07-08, 04:30 AM
Sorcerer took out a small million mana loan from his daddy and built his empire with it.

A warlock gets their magic from a supernatural sugar daddy that may or may not be cthulu/the devil/a leprechaun.

A Wizard spent 7 years in university and 4 years apprenticing before he was allowed to even touch a vial.

Mordaedil
2019-07-08, 04:40 AM
Warlock seems to have a meaning of "traitor, scoundrel and monster".

Wizard is analogus to philosopher and sage.

Sorcerer doesn't seem to have any specific meaning, but is unique in that it comes from old french instead of older english.

Otherwise, these terms are used interchangably, including many other words, such as illusionist, magician, necromancer, evoker, enchanter etc.

Millstone85
2019-07-08, 05:57 AM
The French translation also feels unsatisfying, at least to me.



Sorcerer
Ensorceleur


Warlock
Sorcier


Wizard
Magicien


"Ensorceleur" just sounds like a fancier or more seductive way of saying "sorcier". Also, "sorcerer" and "sorcier" would have been closer spelling-wise. This has led to some confusion at our table.

I am also unhappy with "magicien". It makes me think of a stage illusionist. "Mage" would be much better.

Whyrocknodie
2019-07-08, 06:07 AM
Here in the sunny UK the terms Wizard and Sorcerer generally mean the same thing - someone with supernatural abilities, etc. Warlock on the other hand has a definite derogatory bent to it, meaning someone who cannot be trusted. It then came to mean witch when it was fashionable to justify various atrocities by calling your victim a witch.

MoiMagnus
2019-07-08, 07:09 AM
Where do these different words come from?

Wizard come from "wise" and "hard", so that's someone which is very wise.

Sorcerer come from the french "Sorcier", which come from the latin "sortis" which describe the answer of an oracle (same etymology than sorting, by the way). Note the french "Sorcier" used to refer to someone who made a pact with the Devil. It would often translate to "Witch" in English.

Warlock come from middle English, and mostly mean "traitor/deceiver". "War-" meaning here "pact/truce/..." and "-lock" meaning "liar". It was given the meaning of magic-user because obviously every evil person has magic powers coming from the devil.


The French translation also feels unsatisfying, at least to me.

While I agree, I'd like to point out that Sorcier and Ensorceleur do have a slight difference of meaning:

A "Magicien" use "magie", a "Sorcier" use "sorts", and an "Ensorceleur" use "sortilèges".
This lead to different connotations, even in French:
"Magie" is connoted positively, it is something extraordinary; "Sort" is connoted negatively, it's almost as bad as a curse; while "Sortilège" is connoted toward mental manipulation / seduction (which goes reasonably well with a Cha-based class)

As of alternative choice that could have been made, WoW translates Warlock into "Démoniste", which is a good translation, but unfortunately inadequate to D&D as patrons and demons are totally different things. I also like "Cultiste", "Adorateur" or "Serviteur" as translations, but they feel more restrictive than Warlock.

PhoenixPhyre
2019-07-08, 07:15 AM
As I understand the etymology, warlock is the only one of the three with a distinct meaning. The other two are part of a large collection of words basically meaning "person with supernatural powers" (usually thought of as being connected to spirits of some type, as D&D-style arcane magic is a much later invention)

Warlock comes from the Old English, meaning "traitor, monster, scoundrel, or (the) Devil." Had connotations of "breaking an oath/betraying trust". Later got transferred to "someone who made a pact with the Devil". So in that sense, the classic D&D warlock (sold his soul for power) is true to the meaning.

According to the OED, sorcerer and wizard are synonyms (the first from the Old French, the second from the Old English).

This brings up a good point about language. We in 21st century western culture love to categorize and name variations on things. Look at medieval weapons--there are huge fights about the proper nomenclature of small variations. Back in the day, however, those would likely all be called "sword." Or "Poleaxe/halberd/etc." The romans really didn't have a separate term for the various types of armor they wore. Same with "magic users". Most of the specialized names are very much anachronisms. But that's OK--D&D isn't really a medieval simulator. It's intentionally a mishmash of time-periods (including ones that never were), themes, pop-culture understandings of words, etc. It is not historical fiction, nor does it try to be.

Millstone85
2019-07-08, 07:56 AM
I also like "Cultiste", "Adorateur" or "Serviteur" as translations, but they feel more restrictive than Warlock.How about "Occultiste"? Someone who delves into hidden knowledge.

gkathellar
2019-07-08, 08:18 AM
As I understand the etymology, warlock is the only one of the three with a distinct meaning. The other two are part of a large collection of words basically meaning "person with supernatural powers" (usually thought of as being connected to spirits of some type, as D&D-style arcane magic is a much later invention)

I'd quibble that wizard meant, for a long time, something more akin to "wise man," or "person with wisdom." It still gets used that way to some degree when we say things like, "they're a wizard at computers" or whatever.

PhoenixPhyre
2019-07-08, 08:33 AM
I'd quibble that wizard meant, for a long time, something more akin to "wise man," or "person with wisdom." It still gets used that way to some degree when we say things like, "they're a wizard at computers" or whatever.

That's not the etymology that's accepted widely. It has that as a secondary, later meaning, derived from the "can do things others can't". I'd say that being a "Unix Wizard" came from the "cast magic spells to get this arcane machine to behave" meaning, not the "wise man" meaning.

Now on the other hand, mage (ie Magi in plural) did have some of those connotations directly (hence the tale of the Three Magi/Wise Men from Christian legend).

Faily
2019-07-08, 08:44 AM
Warlock (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/warlock)
"A man practicing the black arts"

Its roots lie in Middle English warloghe, which comes from Old English wǣrloga, meaning "one that breaks the faith". Wǣr is faith, and loga comes from lēogan which is to lie.

So a warlock implies that they're someone who deals with lies and "dark spirits", they've broken with the faith (thus they're heretics). Overall, a rather not-nice person from the view of society.

---

For Sorcerer we need to look to Sorcery to find the meaning.
Sorcery (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sorcery)
"The use of power gained from the assistance or control of evil spirits especially for divining"

A Sorcerer is one who practices Sorcery, meaning someone who has power from the assistance and/or control of evil spirits.

The origins here come from Middle English sorcerie, with roots to Anglo-French and Medieval Latin. From Medieval Latin we have sortarius (from sort; chance, lot). Now I don't really know Medieval Latin, but from what I can understand, Sort+arius would be something like "someone connected to chance".

So similarly to a Warlock, a Sorcerer implies someone dealing with "bad stuff", in this case evil spirits. I would guess *maybe* the reason for choosing Sorcerer as the name for the spontaneous casting class was because of the more "chance"-aspect of how a sorcerer gets their power in the D&D-fluff.


---

Wizard (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wizard)
"A wise man"

A wizard is a wise man, a sage, one who has magical influence or power.

The etymology of Wizard, compared to the two above, is easier. It comes from the Middle English wysard, from wis/wys that means wise. So meaning something like "someone who is wise" or "wiseman".

Wizard is synonymous with Sorcerer, but not with Warlock, which is interesting. Wizard being the "power through long study" works well with its roots in the word "wise" as it's implied that someone who has gained a lot of knowledge is a wise person (but not nescessarily someone with a high Wisdom score :smallwink: ).

MoiMagnus
2019-07-08, 09:00 AM
How about "Occultiste"? Someone who delves into hidden knowledge.
I like it! Though it would work better if it was an Int-based spellcaster. (Similar to the 3.X Witch)

Yora
2019-07-08, 09:19 AM
Wizard (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wizard)
"A wise man"

A wizard is a wise man, a sage, one who has magical influence or power.

The etymology of Wizard, compared to the two above, is easier. It comes from the Middle English wysard, from wis/wys that means wise. So meaning something like "someone who is wise" or "wiseman".

It also seems to match the construction of drunkard and dullard, which makes it someone more knowledgable than would be good. :smallamused:

hamishspence
2019-07-08, 09:23 AM
It also seems to match the construction of drunkard and dullard, which makes it someone more knowledgable than would be good. :smallamused:

I liked Terry Pratchett's take on it in Soul Music:

Wizards were rumored to be wise - in fact, that’s where the word came from.*


*From the Old wys-ars, lit.: one who, at bottom, is very smart.

Kitten Champion
2019-07-08, 09:27 AM
You could use the words interchangeably, as they appear in the thesaurus entries I've seen.

I'd say it's more a matter of contemporary connotation that differentiates them in present communication, which is certainly relevant to what feels right linguistically. You could use one for the other, but it's not surprising for instance to see warlock be saved as a term for a dark sorcerer class in an MMO. Even ignoring D&D culture and its interrelationship with modern video gaming, it does sound more aggressive with the hard k sound at the end.

BWR
2019-07-08, 09:28 AM
It also seems to match the construction of drunkard and dullard, which makes it someone more knowledgable than would be good. :smallamused:

Only if you think that the -ard suffix means something else than "someone who is X'.

VoxRationis
2019-07-08, 10:35 AM
Only if you think that the -ard suffix means something else than "someone who is X'.

I've read a collection of wizard-centric short stories that discussed that suffix in the introduction, pointing out that it tends to show up with the common meaning of being a pejorative way of describing a person by reference to one trait that they have in excess (dullard, drunkard, *****rd, bastard).

Jay R
2019-07-08, 02:09 PM
Like most English words, they can have several meanings, depending on context. The Oxford English Dictionary has 4 definitions and sub-definitions for wizard, and 8-10 for warlock.

For D&D, accept them as gaming jargon, and they have the exact meanings given them by the rules.

JadedDM
2019-07-08, 05:04 PM
Completely removing the D&D context, they more or less all mean the same thing in laymen's terms. Warlock/Witch has a more negative connotation, usually more associated with evil or dark arts, while wizard and sorcerer are more neutral terms. But in English, they all three are completely interchangeable. In fact, back before 3E, wizard, mage and sorcerer all meant the same thing in D&D, too.

Fable Wright
2019-07-08, 05:21 PM
Yeah, stripping away context:

Warlock is an inherently negative term.
Wizard is a neutral term, like mage.
Sorcerer, when differentiated from the previous, is just a very powerful magic user.

johnbragg
2019-07-08, 06:47 PM
Ok, my question is not entirely linked to the D&D setting and ruleset but also about the "meaning" of the word and the context behind it.

The other day I took a glimpse on the italian version of the Player's Handbook from a friend and it struck me that the name of the Warlock class was left as it was, while others like Wizard and Sorcerer were translated as Mago and Stregone.
I talked about it with some friends and we agreed that probably in english Wizard, Sorcerer and Warlock are all words to describe magic wielders whith some differences, while in italian we have just two (and usually Wizard/Mago is used to intend good mages, and Sorcerer/Stregone to intend evil doers).

The English words wizard and sorcerer don't have those connotations. (wizard-good, sorcerer-evil). Wizard, Sorcerer are synonyms, pretty much interchangeable with mage, magician, witch/warlock, soothsayer; less commonly necromancer, conjurer, illusionist, enchanter. Warlock is specifically the male form of "witch", but before D&D classes I don't think anyone drew distinctions between witchcraft, sorcery, wizardry, alchemy, etc. I'd say the only recognized distinction was gender--a female magic-user was a witch, a male magic-user was a warlock.

I want to say that "warlock" has a stronger connotation of being in league with the devil, but I can't seem to find much support in quick googling, so that may be just something I picked up along the way, not something commonly understood.

JK Rowling's Harry Potter series is a decent guide here. "Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry"--there is no difference in techniques or powers or anything between the witches and wizards. In fact, "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" on one side of the Atlantic was released as "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" on the other. Sorcery, wizardry, alchemy, fortune-telling, astrology, numerology, witchcraft, consorting with demons all shade into one another with no hard and fast distinctions.

In the early days of D&D (1st edition, Basic) each class level had a title attached. "Magic-Users" progressed from "Prestigiditator, Evoker, Conjurer, Theurgist, Thaumaturgist, Magician, Enchanter, Warlock, Sorcerer, Necromancer, Wizard"

Isaac Newton, at the same time he was laying out the laws of gravity, was furiously trying to deduce the formula to turn lead into gold. And I just learned that John Napier, the discoverer of logarithms and author of a treatise based on the Book of Revelation arguing that the current Pope was the Antichrist , was widely believed in his town to be a devil-worshipper, with a black rooster as his familiar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Napier


So, there is my question: english speakers, what is the difference in meaning between Wizard, Sorcerer and Warlock? Where do these different words come from?

Where do the words come from? As usual in English etymology, an overlay of Norman-French romance language terms over Anglo-Saxon Germanic terms, with a strong sprinkling of Celtic terms, Norse-Germanic and then wholesale importation of loanwords from classical languages.

If you want to explore on your own:
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/wizard

Mordar
2019-07-08, 06:56 PM
Separate from the game setting, I'd say the three have distinct connotations (which are, of course, influenced by age, region and social circle) that kind of match the following:

Warlock: Male witch (of the bad, eating children and trafficking with the Devil connotation)
Sorcerer: Someone who uses magic spells for generally, but not exclusively, nefarious ends (Sorcerer's Apprentice Mickey being more the exception than the rule)
Wizard: Wise old <man> who can so some things that defy reason that help people/opposite of Sorcerer.

Then along came D&D/AD&D and a handful of movies that added to the general public's knowledge and probably changed those a bit...but I think if we were to poll the masses of 50+ Americans that'd probably show close enough to at least popular connotations.

- M

redwizard007
2019-07-08, 07:00 PM
I came here to say the things that are being said, but I was going to say them better. I was going to use the best words. The biggest words. Words that you don't even know. But now... Now I'm not going to say them. Do you know why? Because they've already been said.



Ok, fine.

In pulp fiction, the sorcerer was often an evil caster who dealt with demons, the undead, or the devil himself.
Wizards tend towards the scholarly.
Warlocks are male witches.

That's about it.

Kyutaru
2019-07-09, 01:08 AM
The funny thing is much of this perception comes from recent era work. When you look at truly ancient works, the sorcerer was the good guy because he studied at a college of peers while the wizard was a looked down upon wild magic naturally gifted character who figured it out all on his own. Sorcerer was a PROFESSION in an explicit study of the wondrous arts that rulers didn't understand (modern term is scientist) while wizards were the genius kid who came up with clever parlor tricks that shocked everyone who was too dumb to understand. This is why we use the term wizard in association with people who are naturally talented in an area or pick it up quickly.

No clue when those switched but fantasy writers have used both interchangeably. There are plenty of evil wizards living by themselves in a tower running experiments while noble sorcerers run academies as headmaster. Getting expelled would make you a wizard which is a derogatory term in that sense. But then just as many evil sorcerers harnessing stolen power and good wizards studying under council of peers have existed as well. Warlocks universally remain evil purely because they are again a real world term for users of the demonic arts, the male equivalent to witches.

Somewhere along the lines though comic books decided that Warlocks don't have to be evil because there are characters that use their gifts for good and one in particular controls his demon from within. That trend continued in fiction and now we have stories about Wizards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks of every alignment while D&D has decided they have specific power sources. It's purely a D&D invention as there has never been a universal agreement on these terms anymore than there has been on the names of political parties, which also switched platforms a few hundred years ago. Since words in English can't seem to stay consistent when they are labels referring to other people (see the old medical term for down syndrome) we get many variations on those words over time and confusion sets in. The longer the word has been around and the more authors have had their go at it, the more twisted the definition becomes until there's only a vague sense of the original meaning.

Lord Raziere
2019-07-09, 02:11 AM
ah, yes nothing ruins anything like the human ability to overapply things until they lose all meaning. the terms are so meaningless and interchangeable that I can say what you claim Kyutaru seems plausible, even though this is the first I ever heard of such a thing.

speaking of things that have no good definition, I tried looking up sorcerer on wikipedia and got the history of magic in general. apparently the intellectual community can't agree on a definition for magic or religion. fitting how two concepts based around dealing with the undefinable can't really be put into solid categories. so these three terms having no real solid definition is just an outgrowth of that when you think about it.

Eldan
2019-07-09, 04:39 AM
The German translations had it worse, really. Because unlike English, which has both Germanic (Wizard, Warlock) and Romance (Sorcerer) vocabulary to draw from, modern German just doesn't have that many words for "person who uses magic". So they went with "Zauberer" for Wizard, "male person with magical abilities", which apparently goes back to Germanic Taubra and never ment anything else. Except it also means "stage magician". And then they ran out of good words for "Sorcerer", so they went with "Hexenmeister". Which literally translates as "Master of Witches", which historically has three or four meanings: a male witch; the male leader of a coven of witches; the devil, who of course is master of all witches; and a witch hunter, witch finder or executioner of witches. Not ideal, really.
And then they really, really ran into the problem with the warlock, because they were now totally out of words for people who use magic. So they went with "Hexer". Which just means male witch, but also has the problem of being really, really close to Hexenmeister.

Gnoman
2019-07-09, 04:46 AM
I'd say the only recognized distinction was gender--a female magic-user was a witch, a male magic-user was a warlock.

That's a very narrow distinction, used only in a very small area until the modern era. For most of history, the term for a male witch was "witch".

Aergentum
2019-07-09, 08:41 AM
Well this turned out to be quite in interesting topic. I did not expect so many answers and some pretty specific too.

Some of you pointed out that english has many words that can be used to describe the "magic user guys", but if you speak about a Necromancer (for example) I think of a different type of magic user instead of an Illusionist.
I agree with some of you that explained that in "modern language" we have some different words due to modern literature, videogames and so on, and that's probably why we have words like Necromancer and Illusionist to begin with.

I see that the italian translation is not the only one with issues. At least the french and the german one tried to translate Warlock with something in their own language (not with some issues).
The fact is that Warlock has no meaning in italian, and while you can possibily link it to a some kind of magic user, it's still difficoult to understand what kind of magic it would be. I still think that Stregone (Sorceror) would have been a better choice since comes from the same root as Witch (Strega), and it was used to describe male witches (in some TV series, for example The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina they use Warlock to describe the male magic users, and the italian transalator used Stregone (Sorcerer) since Strega/Stregone comes from the same root).

Oh well, I think that settles it.

Morgaln
2019-07-09, 11:29 AM
The German translations had it worse, really. Because unlike English, which has both Germanic (Wizard, Warlock) and Romance (Sorcerer) vocabulary to draw from, modern German just doesn't have that many words for "person who uses magic". So they went with "Zauberer" for Wizard, "male person with magical abilities", which apparently goes back to Germanic Taubra and never ment anything else. Except it also means "stage magician". And then they ran out of good words for "Sorcerer", so they went with "Hexenmeister". Which literally translates as "Master of Witches", which historically has three or four meanings: a male witch; the male leader of a coven of witches; the devil, who of course is master of all witches; and a witch hunter, witch finder or executioner of witches. Not ideal, really.
And then they really, really ran into the problem with the warlock, because they were now totally out of words for people who use magic. So they went with "Hexer". Which just means male witch, but also has the problem of being really, really close to Hexenmeister.

I feel like they could have been a bit more creative with the German names. I'd probably have gone with "Beschwörer" for Sorcerer (translates as "summoner" in a narrow sense or "evoker" if applied more broadly). It's not a great fit, but better than making a distinction between "Hexer" and "Hexenmeister".

LibraryOgre
2019-07-09, 12:04 PM
Wizard (https://www.etymonline.com/word/wizard) comes from the same root as "witch" and "wise"

Sorcerer (https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=sorcerer) comes from French, which should surprise no one.

Warlocks (https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=warlock) are literally "oath breakers" or "pact breakers". Good old Norse word.

Eldan
2019-07-09, 03:16 PM
I feel like they could have been a bit more creative with the German names. I'd probably have gone with "Beschwörer" for Sorcerer (translates as "summoner" in a narrow sense or "evoker" if applied more broadly). It's not a great fit, but better than making a distinction between "Hexer" and "Hexenmeister".

The sorcerer existed several years and editions before the warlock, which only came up in 3.5 Complete Arcane, so I suppose they had to find a word for "Warlock" after "hexenmeister" was already taken by the Sorcerer and couldn't think of anything.

Segev
2019-07-09, 04:54 PM
In pulp fiction, the sorcerer was often an evil caster who dealt with demons, the undead, or the devil himself.
Wizards tend towards the scholarly.
Warlocks are male witches.

That's about it.
This is probably the best expectation of what a person unfamiliar with D&D but who was a native English speaker immersed in literary and fantasy terms would associate the words with meaning.

In general, we're quite used to them being largely interchangeable. "Warlock" meaning "male witch" is a very common one, though, and comes up in Bewitched and Sabrina the Teenaged Witch and Charmed, to name a few fiction sources.

There is a slight connotation of likely-to-be-evil in "sorcerer," but only in that "evil sorcerer" is a commonly-applied descriptor, and "sorcerers" often were portrayed as wearing skull caps and dark robes, while "wizards" are usually in sillier blue robes with pointy hats and stars and moons strewn about.

It's also worth noting that, in the Harry Potter series, "witch" just means "female wizard," and that "Warlock" seems to be a title (as Dumbledor was the Chief Warlock of the Wizumgamut).

hamishspence
2019-07-09, 05:18 PM
I think in early D&D novels, "sorcery" and "sorcerers" tended to be demon-summoning wizards.

Faily
2019-07-09, 08:26 PM
Where are people getting the "warlock is a male witch" from? None of the dictionaries I have checked support this notion.

Segev
2019-07-09, 08:50 PM
Where are people getting the "warlock is a male witch" from? None of the dictionaries I have checked support this notion.

I did cite three sources. They are fiction, so I don’t know from where their authors got them, but Bewitched, Charmed, and Sabrina the Teenage Witch all use that convention.

PhoenixPhyre
2019-07-09, 09:38 PM
I did cite three sources. They are fiction, so I don’t know from where their authors got them, but Bewitched, Charmed, and Sabrina the Teenage Witch all use that convention.

It's become memetic. Like so many things, someone thought it up, likely in good faith but incorrectly, and then it propagated and has infected the culture to the point that it cannot be removed.

johnbragg
2019-07-09, 09:41 PM
The funny thing is much of this perception comes from recent era work. When you look at truly ancient works, the sorcerer was the good guy because he studied at a college of peers while the wizard was a looked down upon wild magic naturally gifted character who figured it out all on his own.

Source?


Sorcerer was a PROFESSION in an explicit study of the wondrous arts that rulers didn't understand (modern term is scientist) while wizards were the genius kid who came up with clever parlor tricks that shocked everyone who was too dumb to understand.

source?


This is why we use the term wizard in association with people who are naturally talented in an area or pick it up quickly.

No clue when those switched but fantasy writers have used both interchangeably. There are plenty of evil wizards living by themselves in a tower running experiments while noble sorcerers run academies as headmaster. Getting expelled would make you a wizard which is a derogatory term in that sense. But then just as many evil sorcerers harnessing stolen power and good wizards studying under council of peers have existed as well. Warlocks universally remain evil purely because they are again a real world term for users of the demonic arts, the male equivalent to witches.

Somewhere along the lines though comic books decided that Warlocks don't have to be evil because there are characters that use their gifts for good and one in particular controls his demon from within. That trend continued in fiction and now we have stories about Wizards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks of every alignment while D&D has decided they have specific power sources. It's purely a D&D invention as there has never been a universal agreement on these terms anymore than there has been on the names of political parties, which also switched platforms a few hundred years ago. Since words in English can't seem to stay consistent when they are labels referring to other people (see the old medical term for down syndrome) we get many variations on those words over time and confusion sets in. The longer the word has been around and the more authors have had their go at it, the more twisted the definition becomes until there's only a vague sense of the original meaning.

Bolded part is true. I'm wondering where you're getting the idea of a distinction between properly guild-trained and respectable "sorcerers" and scruffy, self-taught upstart "wizards"

johnbragg
2019-07-09, 09:50 PM
Where are people getting the "warlock is a male witch" from? None of the dictionaries I have checked support this notion.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/warlock

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/warlock

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/warlock

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/warlock

Note that a lot of pagans or wiccans consider the term offensive, and say that a male witch is a witch, end of story. (I don't really follow their logic or grasp the distinction they're trying to make, but they often make it. Anyone who thinks a "warlock" is in league with dark powers is going to think that whether he's called a "witch" or a "warlock.")

KillianHawkeye
2019-07-10, 10:52 AM
Where are people getting the "warlock is a male witch" from? None of the dictionaries I have checked support this notion.

I recall that being my understanding of the term back when I was a teenager (20+ years ago) and into fantasy literature and stuff, but before I had ever started playing D&D. No idea where I got that idea, though.

Also, just want to add that "hexenmeister" is my new favorite word. :smallamused:

Mordar
2019-07-10, 12:33 PM
Where are people getting the "warlock is a male witch" from? None of the dictionaries I have checked support this notion.


I recall that being my understanding of the term back when I was a teenager (20+ years ago) and into fantasy literature and stuff, but before I had ever started playing D&D. No idea where I got that idea, though.

Also, just want to add that "hexenmeister" is my new favorite word. :smallamused:

Not to pile on, but denotation is only a part (and in my frank opinion, a smaller part) of the equation. Connotation dominates word selection/use/understanding for the majority of people in the majority of situations. If the connotation sustains for a long enough period across a wide enough portion of the population it becomes a new, or potentially primary, denotation.

Etymology, while super interesting to me, has even less value in this conversation, I think, because how the word was originally used/defined x units of time ago doesn't matter much because "language lives". To wit, witch and wizard having similar word origins...but one need only look at the costume shops, cartoons or interview a cross section of people to get two very distinct (and likely consistent) images.

So to directly answer Faily's question...for me (pre-Warlock class in D&D), it was from the world around me. It wasn't a commonly used word, but 40 years ago whatever forces congregated to create connotation implanted in me and those around me that a "warlock" was a male witch. Which probably explains why a number of shows that were produced in the last decade or two used "warlock" to describe male witches...because the people responsible for writing/producing those shows are in a demographic similar to mine.

- M

LibraryOgre
2019-07-10, 12:48 PM
Based on release dates, I wonder if Sabrina, the Teenage Witch didn't start the Warlock = Male Witch thing, and Bewitched and subsequent media picked it up.

Mordar
2019-07-10, 02:44 PM
Based on release dates, I wonder if Sabrina, the Teenage Witch didn't start the Warlock = Male Witch thing, and Bewitched and subsequent media picked it up.

That was what, mid-90s? I definitely remember that connotation from the early 80s. However it is certainly possible that the shows were responsible for the expansion of the use.

- M

Beleriphon
2019-07-10, 03:04 PM
Wizard: guy who uses magic because they read books

Sorcerer: guy who uses magic because they're born with it.

Warlock: guy who uses magic because the made a deal with a spirit.

there is no moral implications to any of this and all three can be of any alignment. those are the DnD definitions of those three classes.

where they come from is a completely different discussion altogether and these classes likely only has superficial if any resemblance to their historical/folkloric/mythological depictions of them, like everything else in DnD.

That's the way 5E defines those words.

In English as a language they all amount to the same thing: somebody that uses magic to do things.

Segev
2019-07-10, 03:06 PM
That was what, mid-90s? I definitely remember that connotation from the early 80s. However it is certainly possible that the shows were responsible for the expansion of the use.

- M

Archie Comics introduced Sabrina in the 30s or 40s, IIRC. Her TV series was in the 90s, well after Bewitched, but she originated in the comics much earlier.

KillianHawkeye
2019-07-10, 03:24 PM
Archie Comics introduced Sabrina in the 30s or 40s, IIRC. Her TV series was in the 90s, well after Bewitched, but she originated in the comics much earlier.

Melissa Joan Hart was a comic book character??

Segev
2019-07-10, 03:31 PM
Melissa Joan Hart was a comic book character??

She played a character who started as one, yep!

Gnoman
2019-07-10, 03:48 PM
Sabrina made it to TV (in cartoon form) in the 1970s, even.

Mordar
2019-07-10, 04:30 PM
Archie Comics introduced Sabrina in the 30s or 40s, IIRC. Her TV series was in the 90s, well after Bewitched, but she originated in the comics much earlier.


Sabrina made it to TV (in cartoon form) in the 1970s, even.

I totally read Mark's comment as referring to the 90s TV show. Does anyone know if the comics or the cartoon version referenced "warlocks"?

I do remember the comic version, but not much on the details...just that I liked Wendy and Casper more :)

- M

Lord Raziere
2019-07-10, 04:34 PM
That's the way 5E defines those words.

In English as a language they all amount to the same thing: somebody that uses magic to do things.

Pretty much.

which is why I didn't bother defining them beyond DnD. people pretty much shovel anything into meaning anything else anyways. I'd rather have words meaning specific things with no confusion.

LibraryOgre
2019-07-10, 04:54 PM
I totally read Mark's comment as referring to the 90s TV show. Does anyone know if the comics or the cartoon version referenced "warlocks"?

I do remember the comic version, but not much on the details...just that I liked Wendy and Casper more :)

- M

No, I was referring to her appearance in the comics, which Wikipedia puts at 1962 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabrina_the_Teenage_Witch). Bewitched started in 1964. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bewitched)

gkathellar
2019-07-10, 05:09 PM
Warlocks (https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=warlock) are literally "oath breakers" or "pact breakers". Good old Norse word.

This cracks me up, given how warlocks have become synonymous with making pacts in recent editions of D&D.

Beleriphon
2019-07-10, 05:11 PM
I totally read Mark's comment as referring to the 90s TV show. Does anyone know if the comics or the cartoon version referenced "warlocks"?

Not until Salem was a talking cat in the show. Archie Comics has had Sabrina as a character since her introduction in 1962 in one form or another, the cat was always named Salem, wasn't always Black, and didn't always talk. It was the 90s TV show that specifically called out Salem as a polymorphed warlock.

Lord Raziere
2019-07-10, 05:28 PM
This cracks me up, given how warlocks have become synonymous with making pacts in recent editions of D&D.

Ah but....

you have to make a pact first to break it. and warlocks often make deals with devils whom stories are often about breaking deals with them....:smallamused:

Kitten Champion
2019-07-10, 08:11 PM
This cracks me up, given how warlocks have become synonymous with making pacts in recent editions of D&D.

Maybe they should call them wedlocks?

Lord Raziere
2019-07-10, 08:21 PM
Maybe they should call them wedlocks?

Only if you want constant jokes about "becoming a wedlock" with a succubus or some fae lady.....:smalltongue:

Segev
2019-07-11, 09:01 AM
This cracks me up, given how warlocks have become synonymous with making pacts in recent editions of D&D.

As noted, but I wanted to back up, it's oddly appropriate because of the fact that there's no obligation to adhere to any pacts on the part of the Warlock. One wonders why entities make these unenforcible, no-backsies deals, but then, they probably pick people who they think will do what they want done even without direction.

Millstone85
2019-07-11, 09:51 AM
One wonders why entities make these unenforcible, no-backsies deals, but then, they probably pick people who they think will do what they want done even without direction.That's the way it seemed to be in 5e, until a certain mage said "Ha, ha, you poor fools".
The forging of a pact between a warlock and a patron is no minor occasion--at least not for the warlock. The consequences of breaking that pact can be dire and, in some cases, lethal. A warlock who fails to live up to a bargain with an evil patron runs the risk of rising from the dead as a deathlock, a foul undead driven to serve its otherworldly patron from beyond the grave.
An overpowering urge to serve consumes the mind of a newly awakened deathlock. All goals and ambitions it had in life that don't please its patron fall away as its master's desires become the purpose that drives the deathlock.

Max_Killjoy
2019-07-11, 02:26 PM
Huh, PHB and MTOF contradict each other a bit... should we be shocked?

Millstone85
2019-07-11, 03:42 PM
Huh, PHB and MTOF contradict each other a bit... should we be shocked?I believe the PHB is silent on the matter of breaking the pact.

At best, because of the way the PHB describes the Weave and the difference between how arcane spellcasters, including warlocks, and divine spellcasters access it, you probably shouldn't have a warlock get disconnected like a cleric would. Getting killed, and raised as an undead thrall, that's quite different.

Max_Killjoy
2019-07-11, 04:06 PM
I believe the PHB is silent on the matter of breaking the pact.

At best, because of the way the PHB describes the Weave and the difference between how arcane spellcasters, including warlocks, and divine spellcasters access it, you probably shouldn't have a warlock get disconnected like a cleric would. Getting killed, and raised as an undead thrall, that's quite different.

My reading of the PHB is that it leaves open the nature of the pact, to the point where it could be a one-time exchange or agreement, with no strings attached and no further involvement by the patron.

Millstone85
2019-07-11, 05:43 PM
My reading of the PHB is that it leaves open the nature of the pact, to the point where it could be a one-time exchange or agreement, with no strings attached and no further involvement by the patron.And how does MToF contradict this? Whatever the deal was, be it a single service or ongoing fealty, the deathlock didn't do their part.

Max_Killjoy
2019-07-11, 05:48 PM
And how does MToF contradict this? Whatever the deal was, be it a single service or ongoing fealty, the deathlock didn't do their part.

Seems to imply an ongoing pact, a state of servitude, rather than a one-time exchange or accidental acquisition or other non-servitude situation.

Millstone85
2019-07-11, 06:05 PM
Seems to imply an ongoing pact, a state of servitude, rather than a one-time exchange or accidental acquisition or other non-servitude situation.You will have to explain this to me.

PhoenixPhyre
2019-07-11, 06:15 PM
Seems to imply an ongoing pact, a state of servitude, rather than a one-time exchange or accidental acquisition or other non-servitude situation.

Both are possible. The Pact is a very wide-open thing. Some might be ongoing debtor/creditor relationships (I see especially Fiend Pacts in this category), others might be transactional (each level is an addendum to a prior pact and has its own, independent payment), others might not be "traditional" pacts at all. I've got a patron who is known to just randomly empower someone, because he finds the ensuing chaos to be funny. Others take a much more cleric-esque tack--their warlocks are priests of churches devoted to the patron (many of these patrons are Celestial in nature).

Not all "failed warlocks" become Deathlocks--only specific patrons and specific pacts would lead to such a thing. It's just one out of many possibilities.

Barastur
2019-07-11, 07:25 PM
Witches are female and Wizards are male.

Witches can be young, old, ugly or hot.

Wizards have to be old.

Sorcerers and their female counterpart are often as powerful as Wizards but younger, less experienced or even arrogant of their powers. The male ones can be both ugly and handsome but are always young or at least younger than a wizard and they often are in odds with barbarians. Females are almost exclusively hot or if not hot they use glamours and charms to appear hot. They often ditch robes in favor of skimpy leather armor.

Warlock is an oath breaker, a bad person who may or may not be supernaturally evil, people often translate it as "A male witch" but witch is a gender neutral term (even if it's often associated with females) and modern day Wicca say Warlock is a degrading offensive term that no one should self identify.

Segev
2019-07-12, 10:37 AM
Seems to imply an ongoing pact, a state of servitude, rather than a one-time exchange or accidental acquisition or other non-servitude situation.


Both are possible. The Pact is a very wide-open thing. Some might be ongoing debtor/creditor relationships (I see especially Fiend Pacts in this category), others might be transactional (each level is an addendum to a prior pact and has its own, independent payment), others might not be "traditional" pacts at all. I've got a patron who is known to just randomly empower someone, because he finds the ensuing chaos to be funny. Others take a much more cleric-esque tack--their warlocks are priests of churches devoted to the patron (many of these patrons are Celestial in nature).

Not all "failed warlocks" become Deathlocks--only specific patrons and specific pacts would lead to such a thing. It's just one out of many possibilities.

As PhoenixPhyre says, it sounds like what Mordenkainen is telling us is about Warlocks whose pacts WERE of an ongoing nature, or otherwise required something of them that they reneged on. They have all their powers despite this, but when they die, they rise as deathlocks to fulfil their pact/as a penalty clause.

The PHB leaves open the possibility of a Pact which requires little or can be "paid off" or otherwise be a one-time transaction. If your Warlock has such a pact, he owes his Patron nothing further, and can't "break" it, because he's already fulfilled it. But he also likely doesn't care, because, well, he's got his powers and will keep getting them as he levels.

What Mordenkainen's entry seems to suggest is that there ARE consequences if you have a pact that actually requires you to serve and choose to break it. But they only come up when you die.



This leaves me with an interesting idea for how to exploit this. A Warlock whose Pact was to perform some mutually-agreed-upon ongoing task (e.g. "bodyguard my chosen one for all eternity"). Dying would technically constitute a violation of such a pact, and as long as you really were on the same page as your Patron, this would mean rising as a deathlock is actually a feature of the pact. You're being "punished" for an unwilling violation of it by having the thing getting in the way of you fulfilling it alleviated.

NovenFromTheSun
2019-07-12, 10:58 PM
The funny thing is much of this perception comes from recent era work. When you look at truly ancient works, the sorcerer was the good guy because he studied at a college of peers while the wizard was a looked down upon wild magic naturally gifted character who figured it out all on his own. Sorcerer was a PROFESSION in an explicit study of the wondrous arts that rulers didn't understand (modern term is scientist) while wizards were the genius kid who came up with clever parlor tricks that shocked everyone who was too dumb to understand. This is why we use the term wizard in association with people who are naturally talented in an area or pick it up quickly.


Interesting, how far back and what location are we talking? I was under the impression that Greco-Roman culture has a fairly negative view of sorcery.