SirNibbles
2019-07-08, 11:24 AM
I was thinking of doing a Duskblade teleporter build which uses swift Dimension Hop to get into position and then channels Dimension Hop on a full attack to teleport enemies into the air.
As seems to be the norm in D&D, someone else has already thought of at least part of this:
http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=12428.0
In that thread, there are a few arguments:
1. Can you use Dimension Hop to teleport enemies into the air?
2. Does moving out of a threatened square as you fall through the air provoke AoOs?
3. Does the target fall prone upon landing?
Here are the main points made:
1. Teleporting Enemies into the Air
"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell can’t appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. - Rules Compendium, page 120
That quote is being taken by some as meaning that you can't teleport enemies into the air. I disagree. Is a creature or object being brought into being? No. Is a creature or object being transported to your location? No. Therefore, this rule does not apply for Dimension Hop, and many other Teleportation spells.
2. Provoking While Falling
"Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity." - SRD: Actions in Combat
There is nothing that says otherwise, so falling through a threatened square should provoke. You could also make the argument that being teleported out of a threatened square counts as 'moving' out of it and thus provokes, but I do think that would be going a bit far. Either way, you can only provoke once from an enemy no matter how many threatened squares you leave, so just the falling one is enough.
3. Falling Prone
I've not been able to find anything that says you fall prone just because you fall from a height. There are abilities which specifically state you may fall prone from jumping down from a height, such as the Battle Jump feat (Unapproachable East).
"After you attack, you take falling damage as normal for the distance you jumped. You are entitled to a Jump check (DC 15) to take less damage, as if you had fallen 10 feet less than you actually did. If you fail this Jump check, you fall prone 5 feet from your opponent."
Due to lack of evidence of anything occurring, it seems that you do not fall prone simply by falling. As a side note: in 5e, any fall which causes damage causes you to fall prone.
____
Those contentions out of the way, we end up with the following idea:
1. Swift Action to literally teleport behind you
2. Duskblade Channel Dimension Hop and attack your enemy. If they fail their will save, you send them airborne and wait for them to crash to the floor. While they're falling, you get a free hit against them.
Pretty simple.
But what if you want to double up your damage by causing your enemy to fall on top of another enemy? How do the rules handle that situation?
At first it seems rather simple: creatures take falling damage when they fall, and creatures take damage when objects (or other creatures) fall on them (based on the weight and distance of the falling object).
At CL 10, you can teleport someone 25 feet. That means a 25 foot fall. A creature weighing over 200 lbs would thus deal 2d6 damage to whatever it lands on, as well as taking 2d6 fall damage. A heavier creature, such as a 5,000 lb Iron Golem, would deal 25x that damage to whatever is underneath, max 20d6.
But what happens after the fall?
"You can move through a square occupied by a friendly creature, unless you’re charging... If you’re Small or larger, you usually can’t end your movement in a square occupied by another Small or larger creature, effectively sharing a space with that creature." - Rules Compendium, page 95
"In general, when the characters aren’t engaged in round-by-round combat, they should be able to move anywhere and in any manner that you can imagine real people could. A 5-foot square, for instance, can hold several characters; they just can’t all fight effectively in that small space. The rules for movement are important for combat, but outside combat they can impose unnecessary hindrances on character activities. - SRD: Movement
So you can occupy the same space as another creature, you just can't fight effectively...whatever that means. I would say applying the same -4 to AC and attack rolls that you get from squeezing into a tight space would make sense. RAW doesn't seem to address the issue at all.
Or, perhaps the creature never enters the same square (or cube). The falling creature lands on top of the creature. Nobody falls prone, because the rules don't say they do. That means both creatures are standing upright, one on top of the other, in some sort of insane circus act. They still take fall damage, but they don't end up in the same square.
Honestly it feels like trying to apply RAW in this situation just doesn't work and house-ruling is needed.
As seems to be the norm in D&D, someone else has already thought of at least part of this:
http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=12428.0
In that thread, there are a few arguments:
1. Can you use Dimension Hop to teleport enemies into the air?
2. Does moving out of a threatened square as you fall through the air provoke AoOs?
3. Does the target fall prone upon landing?
Here are the main points made:
1. Teleporting Enemies into the Air
"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell can’t appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. - Rules Compendium, page 120
That quote is being taken by some as meaning that you can't teleport enemies into the air. I disagree. Is a creature or object being brought into being? No. Is a creature or object being transported to your location? No. Therefore, this rule does not apply for Dimension Hop, and many other Teleportation spells.
2. Provoking While Falling
"Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity." - SRD: Actions in Combat
There is nothing that says otherwise, so falling through a threatened square should provoke. You could also make the argument that being teleported out of a threatened square counts as 'moving' out of it and thus provokes, but I do think that would be going a bit far. Either way, you can only provoke once from an enemy no matter how many threatened squares you leave, so just the falling one is enough.
3. Falling Prone
I've not been able to find anything that says you fall prone just because you fall from a height. There are abilities which specifically state you may fall prone from jumping down from a height, such as the Battle Jump feat (Unapproachable East).
"After you attack, you take falling damage as normal for the distance you jumped. You are entitled to a Jump check (DC 15) to take less damage, as if you had fallen 10 feet less than you actually did. If you fail this Jump check, you fall prone 5 feet from your opponent."
Due to lack of evidence of anything occurring, it seems that you do not fall prone simply by falling. As a side note: in 5e, any fall which causes damage causes you to fall prone.
____
Those contentions out of the way, we end up with the following idea:
1. Swift Action to literally teleport behind you
2. Duskblade Channel Dimension Hop and attack your enemy. If they fail their will save, you send them airborne and wait for them to crash to the floor. While they're falling, you get a free hit against them.
Pretty simple.
But what if you want to double up your damage by causing your enemy to fall on top of another enemy? How do the rules handle that situation?
At first it seems rather simple: creatures take falling damage when they fall, and creatures take damage when objects (or other creatures) fall on them (based on the weight and distance of the falling object).
At CL 10, you can teleport someone 25 feet. That means a 25 foot fall. A creature weighing over 200 lbs would thus deal 2d6 damage to whatever it lands on, as well as taking 2d6 fall damage. A heavier creature, such as a 5,000 lb Iron Golem, would deal 25x that damage to whatever is underneath, max 20d6.
But what happens after the fall?
"You can move through a square occupied by a friendly creature, unless you’re charging... If you’re Small or larger, you usually can’t end your movement in a square occupied by another Small or larger creature, effectively sharing a space with that creature." - Rules Compendium, page 95
"In general, when the characters aren’t engaged in round-by-round combat, they should be able to move anywhere and in any manner that you can imagine real people could. A 5-foot square, for instance, can hold several characters; they just can’t all fight effectively in that small space. The rules for movement are important for combat, but outside combat they can impose unnecessary hindrances on character activities. - SRD: Movement
So you can occupy the same space as another creature, you just can't fight effectively...whatever that means. I would say applying the same -4 to AC and attack rolls that you get from squeezing into a tight space would make sense. RAW doesn't seem to address the issue at all.
Or, perhaps the creature never enters the same square (or cube). The falling creature lands on top of the creature. Nobody falls prone, because the rules don't say they do. That means both creatures are standing upright, one on top of the other, in some sort of insane circus act. They still take fall damage, but they don't end up in the same square.
Honestly it feels like trying to apply RAW in this situation just doesn't work and house-ruling is needed.