How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs? [Archive]

Chaosticket

2019-07-08, 01:01 PM

Animal Companions are limited in what they do. At level 1 having a Wolf as a Bodyguard is quite good. Later on problems become apparent that an Animal Companion falls behind any kind of Player Character.

#1 Hit Dice. Animal Companions are based around whatever animal they are, with some bonuses for the Class they are attached to. This means a Level 1 Wolf is going to have only 14 Hit Die at level 20.

Some animals have it better or worse. Dire Tiger has 16 hit die and you take a -15 level penalty,

#2 Number of attacks. Animal use Natural Weapons that do not benefit from BAB granting extra attacks.

I read a suggestion of having an animal companion take "Improved Unarmed Strike" as a feat, but this would make all Natural Weapons into Secondary attacks with a -2/5 penalty and half the bonus from Strength.
Unlocking BAB attacks somehow would be very beneficial.

#3 Equipment. Animals dont get the same kind of Slots for equipment PCs do. You cant just give them a Scimitar and Belt of Strength and call it a day. Armor Class very clearly will fall behind.
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Ive read a few ideas for things like taking Sacred Vow, and Vow of Poverty(if a DM lets you slip it in) as that helps a great deal with passive benefits.

Improved Unarmed Strike would allow BAB to grant extra attacks.

Segev

2019-07-08, 01:14 PM

Animal Companions are limited in what they do. At level 1 having a Bear as a Bodyguard is quite good. Later on problems become apparent that an Animal Companion falls behind any kind of Player Character.

#1 Hit Dice. Animal Companions are based around whatever animal they are, with some bonuses for the Class they are attached to. This means a Level 1 Wolf is going to have only 14 Hit Die at level 20.

Some animals have it better or worse. Dire Tiger has 16 hit die and you take a -15 level penalty,

#2 Number of attacks. Animal use Natural Weapons that do not benefit from BAB granting extra attacks.

I read a suggestion of having an animal companion take "Improved Unarmed Strike" as a feat, but this would make all Natural Weapons into Secondary attacks with a -2/5 penalty and half the bonus from Strength.
Unlocking BAB attacks somehow would be very beneficial.

#3 Equipment. Animals dont get the same kind of Slots for equipment PCs do. You cant juts give them a Scimitar and Belt of Strength and call it a day. Armor Class very clearly will fall behind
-----------------------
Ive read a few ideas for things like taking Sacred Vow, and Vow of Poverty(if a DM lets you slip it in) as that helps a great deal with passive benefits.

Improved Unarmed Strike would allow BAB to grant extra attacks.

There are some upgraded animal companions that, even with the subtraction from your Druid level, are nasty-potent. The Fleshraker Dinosaur is a stand-out, of course. I once played a Druid who had a wolf companion that he upgraded to Fleshraker, but cosmetically left as the same wolf. Just swapped in the mechanics. It worked pretty well. Admittedly, we only got to 10th level or so in that game.

Bohandas

2019-07-08, 01:18 PM

They can't hold things but they should be able to use most other equipment; goggles, headbands, waistbands/belts, etc.

Maat Mons

2019-07-08, 02:14 PM

I'm not sure it's actually desirable for a single Druid class feature to be fully as powerful as a mundane player character. But if that doesn't bother you...

When you're an 18th-level Druid, you can have a T-rex with 20 hit dice. Your T-rex takes the leadership feat, and you boost its Charisma until it can manage an 18th-level cohort. That cohort is also a druid with a T-rex. And that T-tex also has the leadership feat...

MisterKaws

2019-07-08, 02:47 PM

Opposable+Skilled enhancements to any weapon make them usable by any creature with any claw/bite/tentacle. Mouthpick as well for bite.

Particle_Man

2019-07-08, 03:02 PM

If you go for the arcane hierophant prestige class, you add familiar benefits like intelligence and speech to that animal companion.

liquidformat

2019-07-08, 03:03 PM

So the first way to improve your animal companion is just choosing specific ones, like Fleshraker for pure power, apes for tool use, and dire turtle for never being flat footed.

Besides that there are PRCs for making very powerful companions such are ubermount build to mix mount and animal companion, or arcane herophant to combine familiar and animal companion. In either of these cases your animal companion increases its intelligence which opens things up for feats like weapon proficiency and other fun stuff.

Psyren

2019-07-08, 03:11 PM

I'm not sure it's actually desirable for a single Druid class feature to be fully as powerful as a mundane player character.

This. They have to be good enough that they don't get one-shot by whatever you're fighting at that level, but that should also require build resources (items, buffs, feats) to be spent on them, as well as some tactics. Them being slightly behind a PC (even a low-tier martial) is not a problem as long as they don't fall too far behind.

Elkad

2019-07-08, 03:21 PM

Even skipping the Venomfired Fleshraker. Lets just use a kitty.

It's AC should be comparable with the rest of the party - at least assuming you give it some gear.

L12 druid. Tiger. Natural Bond feat, so using the L9 advancement column.
12hd (granting 2 feats and 2 stat points over base).
Str23+3(advancement)=26, Dex15+3(advancement)=18, Con17+1(HD increase)=18. one statpoint to spare, put it wherever.
AC 14 base, +6 (advancement)+2 (better dex)=22. On top of that you'll have one of: Segojans Armor, Mage Armor, Greater Mage armor, a chain shirt (possibly with Chained Magic Vestment), for another 4-8 points. You still have all your short and medium term buffs. Deflection, Haste, ProEvil, Barkskin, etc.
So it should have an AC of 28-30 always, and 40 with buffs up. Mature Adult Blue Dragon or Greater Stone Golem (both CR16) need a 9 to hit AC40. Not great, but not terrible either.

All we've spent so far is about 1000g for our share of a Lesser Rod of Chain Spell (Assuming magic vestment for the whole party). Oh, and some barding.

Buy it a stat belt. An amulet of natural attacks. A vest of protection. Expansion tattoos (you can activate them for him as a full-round action if that's too complicated for an animal) until you get Animal Growth. Etc.

It's got Evasion, Pounce, and Multiattack. ToHit bonus isn't great, at BAB9+Str8+1 (amulet)=18, but not terrible. 5 attacks on a charge, or on anything that lives through the first round (chance of you winning the grapple are rather high).

And then you pile more buffs on. Str (Bite Of X spells), damage, size, etc.

Do something useful with those 2 feats. A Martial Maneuver and a damage boosting stance aren't bad choices. Assassin's Stance, Punishing Stance, Leading the Charge, or Tactics of the Wolf are all going to get you 6pts of damage per hit in various situations. Or Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra, taking Girallon Arms for either Rend damage or 2 more claw attacks..

Is it the equal of a full on ubercharger? No. Is it pretty damn nice for a class feature? Yes.

Eldariel

2019-07-08, 04:20 PM

Honestly, swapping up you tend to keep up with the higher level warriors just fine. Creatures with built-in Pounce and multiple attacks are just pretty handy and then you can throw Greater Magic Fang at their weapons and if necessary, Animal Growth them and their friends and some summons and yourself if you Aspect of the Wolfed or whatever yourself. Psychic Reformation can also get them your bogstandard charger setup which tends to make them more than sufficient; not the ultimate martial characters but good enough to oneshot most of the things that need oneshotting. And yeah, they do need +1 Valorous Necklace/Amulet, which is kinda painful with how much it costs but it's generally worth it. Barding is luckily pretty cheap and generally suffices to put their AC on par with anything level-appropriate (particularly if you have access to Magic Vestment).

They also come with built-in stuff like tracking, high move speed, various skills and such, which is just real nice. Hell, Dire Animals have all good saves too. Cast simple Superior Resistance on them and they're pretty golden. But they can also fight reasonably. Some quick math in this thread for Dire Tiger AC vs. Balor/Pit Fiend for instance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?531595-Core-Only-Druid-why-is-it-powerful-and-how&p=22237529#post22237529). Of course a Dire Tiger isn't actually as useful as a Balor/Pit Fiend but in a straight-up slogfest they are able to put up similar numbers.

Thurbane

2019-07-08, 04:56 PM

Mineral Warrior template can be applied via a spell, and doesn't change type from animal. Will require some DM cooperation, but makes an AC stronger in combat.

Chaosticket

2019-07-08, 04:58 PM

Anthrowhale

2019-07-08, 07:56 PM

If you are careful to use spells efficiently, I think you'll find the buffing costs are not that high.

Consider a Dire Bear at level 20 and assume you have access to a moderately helpful (I.e. willing to cast buffs as long as you pay for them) cleric/wizard in the party

You want Magic Vestment x2, Greater Magic Fang(x3), Barkskin, Bull's Strength, Shield of Faith. Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Fang are hour/level spells, so 2x lesser rod of extend spell (6K) means you need only cast them every other day implying 3x pearl of power L3 (27K). Barkskin requires a pearl of power L2 (4K) and a charge from a lesser rod. Shield of Faith is only minute/level so 4x L1 Pearl of Power should work fine. For Bull's strength, just get an item (16K). Add in an animated shield (9k) and barding (small). The total cost is ~66 K generating potent AC bonuses (Deflect+5, NA enhance+5, Armor (+5?), Armor enhance+5, Shield (+2), Shield enhance +5) on top of existing natural armor (NA+11) to get a total AC of 47 with <10% of WBL.

The attack bonus of 30=12+11(Str)+5(enhance)+2(Str Enhance) is low, but it's still possible to hit a Balor (AC 35) or a Pit Fiend (AC 40) much of the time. The damage (2d6+13/2d6+13/4d6+6 with improved natural attack) is modest, but the improved grab ability is fairly potent between Large size and 37 Str. Comparing with a fighter, your to-hit is significantly lower and you have fewer attack options, but it seems pretty good as a class feature of a Druid +<10% of WBL.

Bohandas

2019-07-08, 08:06 PM

If you gave one a headband of intellect wouldn't it theoretically be able to take class levels.

Jack_Simth

2019-07-08, 08:45 PM

Oh do I hate Magic Fang. It only works on ONE Natural Weapon, so you have to cast it multiple times to cover every Animal's attack.
Try doing that with an Octopus!

Those are really the 3 original Points.

Need:#1 Level 1=HD 1. Important for Hit Points(avoid glass hammers), but also a lot of effects are based on Hit Die.
#2 BAB & Extra attacks. Need to make multiple(hopefully with FULL BAB/strength) attacks so all those small bonuses to damage add up. Eventually damage needs to reach in hundreds per turn to deal with high level enemies.
#3 Equipment is still the biggest issue. Armor Class Should be around 40 before Epic Levels. Need amulets, rings, bucklers, and body armor on everyone.

Animal Companions dont scale well by themselves. They need to combined buffing power of a Druid, Cleric, and Wizard to cover it all with so many buffs. However the is the gist of the problem. The Animal Companion stops being an asset, and becomes a resource hog.

Just to make sure I understand your goal:
You want the Animal Companion coming from the Druid class feature to be basically as strong as a reasonably built and equipped fighter, but you don't want to spend any resources doing so? No five copies of Greater Magic Fang in the morning on your large cat (whether that's the to magic up all of it's natural weapons, no spending money on Mithral Barding, no equipping it with a Cloak of Resistance, no burning a feat from your main character on Natural Bond to offset the adjustment on the level-adjusted companions, no burning a feat on Exalted Companion so that your AC can take Vow of Poverty, and so on?

Edit: Assuming so:
How about: "no." Seriously. One class feature should not replace an entire class easily and reliably. Oh, there's things you can do to make an animal companion a serious threat - as an example, you could grab Exalted Companion and Natural Bond to get a Celestial Fleshraker Dinosaur with full progression, on which you cast Greater Magic Fang repeatedly to +X all six natural weapons, add Venomfire (Serpent Kingdoms), Mithral Chain Shirt Barding, a belt of giant strength, a Superior Resistance Spell, and so on... then you can get a beast that insta-gibs most CR-appropriate things ... but then you're spending resources, diving through many books, and doing lots of optimization; as long as the optimization you're using matches the table you're at, you're fine. But if you want it to be easily comperable to a level-appropriate fighter, automatically, with no input from you... how about "no". That's not good for the game.

Thurbane

2019-07-08, 08:46 PM

If you gave one a headband of intellect wouldn't it theoretically be able to take class levels.

I don't think Int is the main limiting factor in AC taking class levels. Familiars have Int, but have no mechanic whereby they can advance by class levels and still serve as familiars.

RedMage125

2019-07-09, 10:10 AM

I don't think Int is the main limiting factor in AC taking class levels. Familiars have Int, but have no mechanic whereby they can advance by class levels and still serve as familiars.
Familiars also do not "advance" at all. They don't get new HD.

If you go for the arcane hierophant prestige class, you add familiar benefits like intelligence and speech to that animal companion.

OTOH, this can be a nasty and potent combo.

Had one of these in a game I DM'd. He took Natural Bond to offset his Wizard levels and the fact that he took an Ape. Once his Ape became Intelligent, it was entitled to take feats taht required training, such as Light Armor Proficiency, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Power Attack, and so on.

That ape was an absolute MONSTER in combat. Druid also took the feat that extends the range of the Share Spells ability to 30 feet. Which means that the AC can be subject to any spell that either target's an Animal or a Humanoid (if druid casts it on himself).

Psyren

2019-07-09, 11:00 AM

Oh do I hate Magic Fang. It only works on ONE Natural Weapon, so you have to cast it multiple times to cover every Animal's attack.
Try doing that with an Octopus!

Chain Spell?

Or just give them AoMF

Chaosticket

2019-07-09, 11:06 AM

Just to make sure I understand your goal:
You want the Animal Companion coming from the Druid class feature to be basically as strong as a reasonably built and equipped fighter, but you don't want to spend any resources doing so? No five copies of Greater Magic Fang in the morning on your large cat (whether that's the to magic up all of it's natural weapons, no spending money on Mithral Barding, no equipping it with a Cloak of Resistance, no burning a feat from your main character on Natural Bond to offset the adjustment on the level-adjusted companions, no burning a feat on Exalted Companion so that your AC can take Vow of Poverty, and so on?

Edit: Assuming so:
How about: "no." Seriously. One class feature should not replace an entire class easily and reliably. Oh, there's things you can do to make an animal companion a serious threat - as an example, you could grab Exalted Companion and Natural Bond to get a Celestial Fleshraker Dinosaur with full progression, on which you cast Greater Magic Fang repeatedly to +X all six natural weapons, add Venomfire (Serpent Kingdoms), Mithral Chain Shirt Barding, a belt of giant strength, a Superior Resistance Spell, and so on... then you can get a beast that insta-gibs most CR-appropriate things ... but then you're spending resources, diving through many books, and doing lots of optimization; as long as the optimization you're using matches the table you're at, you're fine. But if you want it to be easily comperable to a level-appropriate fighter, automatically, with no input from you... how about "no". That's not good for the game.

Backhanded suggestions? Did not expect that.
I didnt say anything about not optimizing.

Youre right about trying to make it into a Fighter equivalent, but thats not a bad thing. Just picking the Druid as a class makes actual Fighters on the team basically an obsolete option by having Animal Companion and Summon spells.

Its really just the old "How do non-mages stay useful at high levels?" argument. Animals just have it harder because equipment isnt as easy to procure and use. Cant give a Ghost Tiger a Greatsword and Chainshirt, or can I?

DdarkED

2019-07-09, 11:10 AM

Cant give a Ghost Tiger a Greatsword and Chainshirt, or can I?

Mouth Pick Greatsword, Chain Barding.

liquidformat

2019-07-09, 11:47 AM

Mouth Pick Greatsword, Chain Barding.

Yep go with a warbeast magebred tiger (note they screwed up the stats for the ghost tiger and it is better to magebred one yourself) as your animal companion, arcane herophant and go crazy.

DwarvenWarCorgi

2019-07-09, 12:20 PM

Certainly not as high powered as some of these suggestions, and technically 3.0, MotW has a 24hr 200xp ritual to advance an animal companion 1hd as an animal. The best reason to do this is the extra hd can bump animals up a size, unlike the bonus hd from animal companion.

Bohandas

2019-07-09, 12:21 PM

Its really just the old "How do non-mages stay useful at high levels?" argument. Animals just have it harder because equipment isnt as easy to procure and use. Cant give a Ghost Tiger a Greatsword and Chainshirt, or can I?

Well not a chainshirt that you've looted from a goblin or whatever. A custom made one would work fine

DwarvenWarCorgi

2019-07-09, 12:23 PM

Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
Its really just the old "How do non-mages stay useful at high levels?" argument. Animals just have it harder because equipment isnt as easy to procure and use. Cant give a Ghost Tiger a Greatsword and Chainshirt, or can I?

Well not a chainshirt that you've looted from a goblin or whatever. A custom made one would work fine

Rules for Barding are in the armor section of PHB, and I believe DMG or Savage species literally says something along the lines of "unless a creature has truly unique anatomy most magic items work fine, a hell Hound can wear a ring on a toe, for example." I'm paraphrasing there but definitely in the spirit of RAW. I think the section or sidebar is titled something like "body slots for non-humanoid creatures".

And Magic Fang and Silvered Claws are on the Permanancy list if nothing else

Thurbane

2019-07-09, 03:11 PM

Familiars also do not "advance" at all. They don't get new HD.

Not in the traditional sense, true. But they do use their masters HD for calculating effects; their HP are based off their masters; they use the masters base saves; masters skill ranks etc...

Certainly not as high powered as some of these suggestions, and technically 3.0, MotW has a 24hr 200xp ritual to advance an animal companion 1hd as an animal. The best reason to do this is the extra hd can bump animals up a size, unlike the bonus hd from animal companion.

That's very interesting. I was completely unaware of that. Thank you.

liquidformat

2019-07-09, 03:27 PM

Rules for Barding are in the armor section of PHB, and I believe DMG or Savage species literally says something along the lines of "unless a creature has truly unique anatomy most magic items work fine, a hell Hound can wear a ring on a toe, for example." I'm paraphrasing there but definitely in the spirit of RAW. I think the section or sidebar is titled something like "body slots for non-humanoid creatures".

It is in the magic item compendium actually it also goes over reasons to loose/change body slots, lords of madness and maybe another source or two also go over body slots for specific monsters like beholders.

Thurbane

2019-07-09, 03:43 PM

It is in the magic item compendium actually it also goes over reasons to loose/change body slots, lords of madness and maybe another source or two also go over body slots for specific monsters like beholders.

Shameless self promotion: [3.5] Magic Item Slots For Various Creatures (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?585673)

Biggus

2019-07-09, 04:28 PM

Animal Companions are limited in what they do. At level 1 having a Wolf as a Bodyguard is quite good. Later on problems become apparent that an Animal Companion falls behind any kind of Player Character.

Oh do I hate Magic Fang. It only works on ONE Natural Weapon, so you have to cast it multiple times to cover every Animal's attack.
Try doing that with an Octopus!

In the Spell Compendium there's Superior Magic Fang which affects all natural weapons you have; you can either cast it on your AC, or you can cast it on yourself and have it affect your AC too if you intend it to stick close by you. It only lasts for 1 round/ level, but it's good for ACs with loads of natural weapons.

Also in the SpC: Bite of the Werebear, likewise can be cast on your AC or on yourself and shared, Girallon's Blessing (10mins/ level, with a lesser rod of Extend Spell a couple of castings can last all day at high levels), Aura of Vitality, Nature's Avatar (swift action to cast), Nature's Favor (also swift action) and Superior Resistance (lasts 24hrs). Add in Animal Growth and Barkskin from the PHB and you've got +28 Str, +4 Dex, +16 Con, +14 Fort, +9 Refl, +6 Will, +1d8 temp HPs/ caster level, 3 extra attacks per round, +20 attack and damage (at caster level 20, in addition to the bonuses from Strength), +8 or more to armor class...

If you're willing to spend the spell slots, all you need is a good scout (or some divination spells) in the party to make sure you usually have a couple of rounds' warning before combat begins, and your AC can outfight most martial characters. I recently created a 19th-level Druid with a dire tiger AC who had an attack bonus of +56 and 364 HPs when fully buffed.

Chaosticket

2019-07-09, 07:47 PM

Great spell suggestions. Have I mentioned I love the Spell Compendium Book?

Biggus

2019-07-09, 08:40 PM

Great spell suggestions. Have I mentioned I love the Spell Compendium Book?

:smallbiggrin:

Oh yeah, and to keep it alive there's the spell Heal Animal Companion (also SpC) which works the same as Heal but is lower level because it affects only your AC; useful if you're doing the share-spells-and-stay-within-5ft-of-each-other thing (or if you have Reach Spell or a metamagic rod of it) and the Collar of Healing (MiC) which allows you to heal your AC of 50HPs damage once per day as an immediate action at any distance and costs 5,000GP, very affordable for a high-level PC.

DwarvenWarCorgi

2019-07-09, 08:40 PM

Quote Originally Posted by DwarvenWarCorgi
Certainly not as high powered as some of these suggestions, and technically 3.0, MotW has a 24hr 200xp ritual to advance an animal companion 1hd as an animal. The best reason to do this is the extra hd can bump animals up a size, unlike the bonus hd from animal companion.

That's very interesting. I was completely unaware of that. Thank you.

No prob. Went and checked, its MotW pg37

Eldariel

2019-07-10, 07:11 AM

Great spell suggestions. Have I mentioned I love the Spell Compendium Book?

Though I think a bunch of level 3 slots (Greater Magic Fang) all day is a far smaller cost than a single 4th level slot and an action every fight (Superior Magic Fang). You've got enough higher level slots that you can make do with fewer 3rd level ones. Lesser Rod of Chain Spell works but only if you first Ocular Spell or Reach Spell GMF as it's range touch.

Biggus

2019-07-10, 08:28 AM

Though I think a bunch of level 3 slots (Greater Magic Fang) all day is a far smaller cost than a single 4th level slot and an action every fight (Superior Magic Fang). You've got enough higher level slots that you can make do with fewer 3rd level ones. Lesser Rod of Chain Spell works but only if you first Ocular Spell or Reach Spell GMF as it's range touch.

Depends how many natural weapons we're talking about, how many fights you get into per day on average, and how often you get into fights without time to prepare first. But you're right that often GMF is going to be the better choice.

Good idea with the Lesser Rod of Chain Spell. If that's not an option and the number of natural weapons in question is not ridiculously high, for a little more gold you could get a couple of Pearls of Power if you don't want to use up too many of your 3rd-level spell slots.

Rijan_Sai

2019-07-10, 10:40 AM

Chaosticket

2019-07-10, 03:10 PM

DdarkED

2019-07-10, 03:34 PM

i am confused why you think your companion needs to always be effective in every combat. lots of class features are only applicable sometimes even with extra effort.

there is no problem. use the rest of your class features when the companion cant tow the line or devote more resources into the companion.

Psyren

2019-07-10, 03:41 PM

See now youre just reminding me of a problem.

Everyone needs +1-5 weapons for the bonuses but especially because they can negate mos kinds of Damage Reduction.

Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestments, and all the Magic Fang spells are emergency options if you have a Killer DM that withholds treasure.

For Animal Companions how do you give them something as simple as a +1 Weapon? Martial Weapon Proficiency and have an Octopus with 8 Scimitars?

Most ACs have a neck slot (see Thurbane's link above.) Put AoMF or NoNA on it; you can fluff it as a collar if that helps the visual.

You actually want to do this anyway, because a neck slot can also hold a natural armor bonus (use the MiC rules for "common item slot effects" to put both on the same item.)

Biggus

2019-07-10, 06:22 PM

For the record, Magic Fang (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFang.htm) is "range: touch"; Greater Magic Fang (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFangGreater.htm) is "range: close", and so is a viable target for Chain Spell or LRoCS.

Just looked up the wording of Chain Spell, and it occurs to me that being able to use it to affect the same creature multiple times depends on the interpretation of the word 'target'. As far as I know, target is usually used to mean 'a creature or object' and while I don't know of anything which specifically excludes different parts of the same creature counting as separate targets, you might have difficulty convincing some DMs that the "Each arc affects one secondary target chosen by you...none of which can be affected more than once" provision of Chain Spell doesn't prevent this use.

Braininthejar2

2019-07-10, 07:04 PM

or concentrate on magic that increases size, and have him power through damage reduction with brute force.

Hmm... an animal companion with share spells could benefit from your "bite of..." spells, couldn't it?

daremetoidareyo

2019-07-11, 01:09 PM

Leap into animal is the one you want to share. Just keep some elephants around

ayvango

2019-07-11, 03:40 PM

You could take elemental companion ACF and equip it with normal tools. It is intelligent enough to use them.
Alternatively you could chain Polymorph Any Object your companion into a Pit Fiend.
Or you could use companion as crafting aid. Instead of getting magic crafting feats yourself which are too many to choose, you could load feat on your companion. And when you need another crafter feat you could resign old companion and conscript new.

Thurbane

2019-07-11, 04:43 PM

There's an Eberron feat, Aerenal Beastmaster, that allows Elf Druids to take a Baboon companion.

Baboons are medium, and humanoid enough (IMHO) to use most gear without any issues.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/thumb/800.422.https://allthatsinteresting.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/jackie-eating.jpg

I made a thread about this once upon a time: [3.5] Baboon Companion/Familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?539347)

Chaosticket

2019-07-11, 06:29 PM

*facepalm* Ok I didnt notice it because people use acronyms rather than saying the full name.
"Amulet of Mighty Fists" there, said it.

Its a bit tricky because all GMs are Killer GMs, so being dependent on finding a very specific item they probably wont allow is very burdensome.

Oh and you need 2 because Druid or Wild Ranger.

What about Improved Unarmed Strike? makes natural Attacks Secondary weapons, but does give bonus attacks for BAB. More useful for Animal Companions with few attacks, like MOST of them.

Scared Vow+Vow of Poverty? VoP solves most of the problems, being equivalent to Chainshirt Barding +6, Ring of Protection +3, and Cloak of Resistance +3. Problem is I dont really know how to get Exalted Feats

Elkad

2019-07-11, 07:09 PM

What about Improved Unarmed Strike? makes natural Attacks Secondary weapons, but does give bonus attacks for BAB. More useful for Animal Companions with few attacks, like MOST of them.

Only really worth it for something with a single attack, and even then the drop in damage (1d4 at large) probably isn't worth getting the extra attack.

Psyren

2019-07-11, 07:17 PM

Its a bit tricky because all GMs are Killer GMs, so being dependent on finding a very specific item they probably wont allow is very burdensome.

Uh, what? It's a core item - sounds like your GMs are a bit on the parsimonious side.

Chaosticket

2019-07-11, 09:26 PM

Does a GM EVER give you the item you need?

Psyren

2019-07-11, 10:17 PM

Does a GM EVER give you the item you need?

*backs away slowly*

Segev

2019-07-12, 11:01 AM

Does a GM EVER give you the item you need?

*backs away slowly*

I'll bite: Yes. Often, especially in D&D. I've had DMs allow random drops to be particularly fitting, had DMs who contrived to give the party what they wanted, had DMs who may not have gone full "magic mart," but did allow hunting for specific items, and even worked with DMs to arrange for particular items to happen to be "found." As a DM, I usually love to give items that I think the party will find useful. I usually roll randomly, but I definitely tweak things to be "neat" for the PCs rather than bland or boring "vendor trash" where I can. Even if that only means tying them into some hint at lore about the things they just beat up.

daremetoidareyo

2019-07-12, 11:29 AM

As DM I am amenable to receiving a wishlist and working to put some SOME! of them in.

MultitudeMan

2019-07-12, 12:10 PM

When you're an 18th-level Druid, you can have a T-rex with 20 hit dice. Your T-rex takes the leadership feat, and you boost its Charisma until it can manage an 18th-level cohort. That cohort is also a druid with a T-rex. And that T-tex also has the leadership feat...

If this actually works by RAW, it may be the single coolest thing I have ever seen in D&D (as well as a very solid reason to ban Leadership); may I sig this?

Segev

2019-07-12, 12:31 PM

If this actually works by RAW, it may be the single coolest thing I have ever seen in D&D (as well as a very solid reason to ban Leadership); may I sig this?

You honestly don't need to ban leadership, just forbid cohorts, animal companions, and other "NPCs that belong to a PC" from taking it.

Psyren

2019-07-12, 12:47 PM

In 3.x, DMs are expected to provide players with a set of magical bonuses/items commonly called the "Big Six" (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070302a) - D&D's math just doesn't work (particularly for low-tier martial classes) otherwise. For a character that relies on natural attacks (or has a class feature that does), this means that the very first entry of the Big Six - magic weapons - doesn't work without something like the AoMF. So I think expecting that item to be made available for your class in the vast majority of campaigns is perfectly reasonable. And that's before we get into the fact that nearly every class with an animal companion can simply craft one.

RedMage125

2019-07-12, 02:40 PM

You honestly don't need to ban leadership, just forbid cohorts, animal companions, and other "NPCs that belong to a PC" from taking it.

Honestly, myself and every DM I've ever played with all ban Leadership just because it's a lot of spotlight and action time for one player at the table (we usually have had to set hard limits at 6 or so players). Bad enough that Animal Companions already cut into this.

I've also never wanted to deal with all the other followers besides the cohort that come with it.

But I do agree that Leadership should only ever be for the PC themself, if it is allowed at all.

Biggus

2019-07-12, 03:50 PM

Honestly, myself and every DM I've ever played with all ban Leadership just because it's a lot of spotlight and action time for one player at the table (we usually have had to set hard limits at 6 or so players). Bad enough that Animal Companions already cut into this.

I've also never wanted to deal with all the other followers besides the cohort that come with it.

But I do agree that Leadership should only ever be for the PC themself, if it is allowed at all.

It does depend on the size of the group, with small groups (3 or fewer players) it can help to fill in gaps in the party roles. I'm currently running a solo campaign for my partner and she took Leadership primarily so she has more to do in battles against multiple opponents.

Agreed about the cohorts not having cohorts thing though. That way madness lies, especially at very high levels.

Maat Mons

2019-07-12, 04:42 PM

Looking over my T-rex/druid loop more closely, it does have an issue. Leadership isn't just capped at your level -2. It's also capped at 17. So you can't actually have an 18th-level cohort, even at 20th level.

You could still make it work though, using that feat that offsets the effective druid level cost of higher-level animal companions. Then the 17th-level druid cohorts could still manage to have 20-HD T-rexes.

Or, I guess, the T-rexes could have that feat that lets them have a cohort up to one level lower than them. Then the basic, 18-HD ones can still pull off 17th-level cohorts.

The problem isn't unique to Leadership though. A 19-HD T-rex with the Wild Cohort feat can get a 19-HD T-rex as his lackey. And then it's T-rexes all the way down.

Anyway, yes MultitudeMan, you can sig the quote if you want. Just know that there are issues with the plan as presented there.

MultitudeMan

2019-07-12, 11:27 PM

The problem isn't unique to Leadership though. A 19-HD T-rex with the Wild Cohort feat can get a 19-HD T-rex as his lackey. And then it's T-rexes all the way down.

OK, well, I don't want to get into RAW arguments over my sig the whole time, so perhaps if I sig this one instead? I feel you deserve some sort of recognition!

Bohandas

2019-07-13, 01:24 AM

It occurs to me that with the correct version of the Graft Flesh feat one can add aftermarket hands to their animal companion.

LordBlades

2019-07-13, 03:02 AM

Honestly, myself and every DM I've ever played with all ban Leadership just because it's a lot of spotlight and action time for one player at the table (we usually have had to set hard limits at 6 or so players). Bad enough that Animal Companions already cut into this.

I've also never wanted to deal with all the other followers besides the cohort that come with it.

But I do agree that Leadership should only ever be for the PC themself, if it is allowed at all.

In the group I usually play in, we have a clear expectation that, no matter how complex your character is, you should be able to handle him in a reasonable amount of time, or play something simpler. Just because you're a Druid who has turned into a bear, have a bear animal companion and have summoned 1d4 bears in this combat, you shouldn't take 3-4 times longer than the Wizard's or Cleric's turn. As a result, I'm usually the only one who plays summoner and minionmancers :)

Regarding Leadership, we usually go with the following guidelines:
- no more than 1 Leadership per party
- if the group can't unanimously agree who the guy with Leadership is, nobody will take it

Chaosticket

2019-07-13, 06:23 AM

Okay, so there is an official name to the items Im looking for "The Big Six", thanks Psyren. That is the #3 problem I brought up with Companions. I just forgot about of Amulet of Mighty Fists. Yeah its harder to get that than say someone with Simple or Martial Weapons. Natural/Unarmed characters have that very specific item requirement. Other characters have a variety of options.
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Leadership is controversial, but any time people talk about it I wander back to First and Second edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons where Player Characters had their own growing Entourages as they leveled up. I remember that Levels granted Titles that actually meant something, like having strongholds and small armies of followers. If anything Leadership is an "optional" variant of something older edition characters got automatically.

I would avoid using it for combat cohorts because they have a level penalty, would require a lot of equipment, and if they die you take a PERMANENT penalty. Id rather use it to have a Crafting character.

Lorddenorstrus

2019-07-13, 09:49 PM

Does a GM EVER give you the item you need?

All the time, in my current campaign he even gave us an Artificer NPC to churn items out. He doesn't really care what we grab so long as we stay close to WBL and it isn't a gamebreaking item. I do similar when I DM on the off days, so our DM gets a break. Hell I make custom magic items I find interesting in design just to toss to the players. My favorite to date was a Sunfire Cape esque item that did fire damage to things in an area around the wearer. based it on the league of legends item. Player had a grapple based martial and he loved it. The idea is to have players have fun. So no offense, but from the way you're talking it sounds like your GMs are ... um ****?