WOTC Campaign of Sexism

[Atirakis]

It started with a thread called Astrids Parlor: A Haven for Female Gamers. Then it became an entire forum dedicated to seperating female and male gamers from posting in the same forums. Soon after anyone raising their voice in concern of this segregation was banned.

WOTC has done all this, not out of concern for female gamers, but rather to bolster sales of a book. A book that tells women to mark down what shoe size their character is and what shoes they are currently wearing.

Well WOTC can do whatever they want but we as the players of this game do not have to support them while they do it. Stand up and be heard that we do not want seperate but equal forums for male and female gamers. We want to play this game they way it was intended, where the only people not welcome are those that do not want to have fun playing a social game.

[Yuki Akuma]

...No.

Frankly, I don't care either way. If they want to be sexist, they can lose a good chunk of their fanbase.

Now, I'll agree the book isn't very good. But a forum dedicated to a book... is fine. The forum was for discussing the book originally, but people got the wrong idea and thought it was to segregate gamers.

It wasn't. It was for discussing the book. Which is an awful, awful book, but that just makes the author an idiot.

[Dragonmuncher]

Is that that book that was posted about a few weeks back, that had the chick-lit style cover and had people in a tizzy because they thought it was going to be "Hey look girls, this is how you play D&D! And color-coordinate your dice with your lipstick!"?

If so, did it come out? How was it?

If not, what is it?

[DeathQuaker]

I admit, at the forefront, I have not or ever been heavily involved in the WotC forums. I'm not even a registered member (I've read them). I have looked into this particular issue in the past in an attempt to learn more about the "Confessions of a Part-Time Sorceress" book and saw it mentioned and discussed at length.

My understanding--and again, I could be misinformed--is the "Haven for Female Gamers" was intended to be just that: a place where group of people generally in a minority could feel safe and comfortable to discuss something they enjoyed.

The forum became filled with posts from male gamers "protesting" about the purpose of the forum, or offering "advice" to female gamers, rather than offering the "haven" inteded. At least at the start, I don't believe males were discouraged to post, but more that so many males showed up to talk about how they knew everything about female gamers, that the female gamers felt intimidated from posting--which was exactly what the forum had been designed to prevent. It sounds to me overall that the sexism present was not from the female gamers nor from the people who created the forum, but from the male gamers who misunderstood or disliked the thread and yelled it into extinction. I do think that's a shame.

However, I also think that WotC is indeed in the wrong from banning people making complaints (unless the complaints were worded in such a manner that was trollish or flaming); people should be free to complain.

I also wonder why WotC didn't just create a forum for male gamers as well, and then all would be equal again.

Still, even if I am misinformed about the events that transpired, I find nothing offensive about the idea of a forum that is largely to encourage a minority group of gamers to discuss their hobby amongst themselves, when they often feel intimidated to do so in a larger setting. Such things are very often a step in helping people gain the confidence they need to then communicate in a larger, more diverse setting.

I think WotC has a neat idea trying to reach out to more female gamers, although I think the "Confessions..." book is rather silly, having taken a look at it now. It's a shame their efforts have been misplaced and miscommunicated.

All said and done, I think they've made some mistakes (and they have been always ban-happy, regardless of demographic, to anyone who is critical, so that's not new), but I doubt their efforts were meant to be sexist.

Still, in the end, if you feel they have discriminated against you, I would recommend boycotting their products in the future. That's what I do when I feel a company produces a product discriminatory against me.

[Rachel Lorelei]

It started with a thread called Astrids Parlor: A Haven for Female Gamers. Then it became an entire forum dedicated to seperating female and male gamers from posting in the same forums. Soon after anyone raising their voice in concern of this segregation was banned.
No, that isn't what it was for.

Have you ever heard of a "minority space"?


WOTC has done all this, not out of concern for female gamers, but rather to bolster sales of a book. A book that tells women to mark down what shoe size their character is and what shoes they are currently wearing.
So was the forum about separation by sex, or about promoting the book?
For the record, that advice might be wholly appropriate for the people the book was targeted at. There are a whole lot of girlfriends who get dragged along to D&D sessions and just can't relate to it or get into it. I've seen it happen.


Well WOTC can do whatever they want but we as the players of this game do not have to support them while they do it. Stand up and be heard that we do not want seperate but equal forums for male and female gamers. We want to play this game they way it was intended, where the only people not welcome are those that do not want to have fun playing a social game.
If you think that sexism isn't more prevalent among gamers than in society as a whole, you are kidding yourself. Suffice it to say that the default is a mild but noticeable negativity towards women, and that this gets outright blatant. There's been an article posted here more than once, about playing with female gamer, that said something along the lines of "Do not rape their characters. Yes, we had to make this a rule, that's how often we heard about this." That should tell you something.

If I go to a lot of effort, I make a moderately effective drag king. And showing up at a gaming store or a new gaming group as a guy vs. as a girl gives results that range from subtly (in the very best of cases) to drastically different.

If you think the game was originally designed to welcome everyone, explain the Random Prostitute Table in 1st edition.

ETA: WotC didn't create a forum for male gamers, because the default forums--just like the default game--are male-dominated. It's the same reason there's an NAACP but not a NAAWP.

DeathQuaker made some good points, including that the forum was flodded with guys going "ZOMG WE'RE BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST."
The same guys who wonder why there aren't more gamer girls.
The same guys who refuse to accept their behavior towards female gamers as misogynistic and something that drives girls away from gaming.

[Porthos]

If you think the game was originally designed to welcome everyone, explain the Random Prostitute Table in 1st edition.

Screw that (pardon the pun :smallwink: ). Remember the maximum ability differences for men and women? Talk about not welcoming everyone. :smallannoyed:

I've been gaming for almost 30 years, and DnD has become much less sexist that it ever was. Is it perfect now? Well, no. But crack open just about any 1e DnD book, and compare it to the current line. Night and day, difference wise.

[Renrik]

Hey now, that random prostitute table is a useful tool. I always run out of ideas for what prostitutes the characters meet in their seedy urban adventures. Which is exaccerbated by the fact that they actively seek out aforementioned ladies (and gentlemen) of the night. Yeah, my players suck.

All that said, I've seen the book that WotC is selling, and I don;t think it's all that great. Of course, I'm a guy, so what the hell do I know about it, but still, it doesn't seem like the kind of thing the female gamers I know would buy. Of course, they all seem to play World of Darkness. Don't know why. I hate that series.

[ArmorArmadillo]

If someone came here complaining about how one of the forums were structured, the mods would intervene.

Gaming/book forums commonly get extremely strict when people start creating heavily controversial threads/ideas; WotC is likely to get extremely strict due to the potential to have the "official" D&D forum go up in flames over an unpopular book.

Elevating that to a "Campaign of Sexism" is exactly the kind of overreaction that makes such actions necessary.

[Severus]

The forum became filled with posts from male gamers "protesting" about the purpose of the forum, or offering "advice" to female gamers, rather than offering the "haven" intended.

Anywhere public there are female gamers, there are male gamers making fools of themselves.

The things men and boys do when they think with Mr. Happy....

[Xuincherguixe]

Sexism pisses me off.

It's understandable that the game would be a little sexist all things considered. But some of this stuff doesn't make any damn sense at all. I mean at least most other games stop at objectification.

[Catch]

in b4 "no girls on the internets"

Aside from that, the gaming and general geek community has always been composed of a largely male fanbase. It's the nature of the subject matter and the female geeks I know are pretty comfortable with that fact and some prefer it that way. I don't really need to point out the inherent silliness in segregating a forum, though I do partially understand the reasoning, what with social aptitude being the second most lacking characteristic of the geek circles, after females.

I guess it's about the line between catering to a demographic and excluding one. Then again, had I been born the fairer sex, I'd probably be equally tired of "OMG u r teh girl?!1!! cyberz plx!!"

[Saph]

Sign me up another vote for the 'not caring'. The whole idea of trying to separate any group in this way has always struck me as a bad one, so I can't say I'm sorry that the forum went.

Let's dial back on the outrage though, eh?

- Saph

[Silkenfist]

Well WOTC can do whatever they want but we as the players of this game do not have to support them while they do it. Stand up and be heard that we do not want seperate but equal forums for male and female gamers.

And by "we", you mean who exactly? If a group of people defined by a common trait wants to have a forum of exchange exclusively available to them, why shouldn't they be allowed to have it? What exactly is your problem with that?

[Porthos]

If someone came here complaining about how one of the forums were structured, the mods would intervene.

Since I am a Moderator Somewhere Else on the Net, I can say with absolute certainty that the more disruptive a group of people are in regards to Forum Structure the less chances there are for them to be listened to. Conversely, the more polite and constructive the commentary (and preferably private versus public) the commentary, the more of a chance there will be for the suggestions to be listened to.

How about that? Being respectful and courteous (and following forum rules -whatever they may be- about suggestions) is more likely to get something done than being argumentative. Who would have thought? :smallyuk:

[DraPrime]

*sigh*

Another theory of how WotC is racist/sexist/communist/fascist. People, this idea is nothing new.

[Yuki Akuma]

Sign me up another vote for the 'not caring'. The whole idea of trying to separate any group in this way has always struck me as a bad one, so I can't say I'm sorry that the forum went.

Let's dial back on the outrage though, eh?

- Saph

(I am amused by the notion that the default English reaction to things such as this is "meh".)

[Arakune]

*stuff*

If you think the game was originally designed to welcome everyone, explain the Random Prostitute Table in 1st edition.



You're kidding right? They didn't put that in the game, right?:smalleek:

[DraPrime]

If you think the game was originally designed to welcome everyone, explain the Random Prostitute Table in 1st edition.

Holy crap! If the people in my group see this they'll want the DM to make one immediately. Sick pervs.

[Rex Blunder]

Atirakis, you better be female. Otherwise, your opinion about what is insulting to women gamers holds no weight.

Your "separate but equal" rhetoric implies that women are not allowed to post outside of Astrid's Parlor. Is that true?

As I understand it, Astrid's Parlor is meant to be a place for women, WHO WANT TO DO SO, to talk to other women. Women who don't want to participate in such a forum don't need to. If no women find it valuable, the forum will be empty.

I can't imagine you'd [scrubbed] want to deny such a forum to any women who would find it valuable.

[Kurald Galain]

Meh.

They should have created two forums, one for female gamers and one for people who wish to complain about the other forums, and of course keep all existing forums open to everybody regardless of gender. That's probably the quickest way to deal with this tempest-in-a-teacup.

If I may ask on a tangent - is it the case that most people complaining about sexism in games are American? Because I wonder if this is a culture thing. I don't live even remotely near the USA, but I don't think I've ever encountered blatant sexism in gaming, and about one-quarter of the gamers I know are female.

Rape their characters? Frankly it has never come up; nobody even suggested such a thing in any campaign I've played in. No, not even when we were playing evil, and not even when we were fifteen.

[Saph]

(I am amused by the notion that the default English reaction to things such as this is "meh".)

Probably not too far off the truth. :)

That said, the whole idea of trying to segregate gamers by gender is unbelievably stupid. But I think DeathQuaker's got it right - this was incompetence rather than malice. (Like usual.)


If I may ask on a tangent - is it the case that most people complaining about sexism in games are American?

Yes, I think so. I've always found things the other way around, myself - the girls tend to get better treatment than the guys, simply due to their rarity. If there's any problem, it's that the guys treat them too carefully instead of lightening up and joking with them a bit more. But groups differ.

- Saph

[Atirakis]

Ok lots of replies so lets see if I can get to all of them.

1. The forum does indeed still exist, it is not gone.
2. They are seperating the community and it is just a marketing attempt to sell a crappy book, making it all the more wrong and sad.
3. By "we" I mean the players of D&D.
4. Although not everyone protesting was polite and respectful, the majority of us were. We were confronted with teh same kind of ignorant attacks as this fine example...


Atirakis, you better be female. Otherwise, your opinion about what is insulting to women gamers holds no weight.

WHAT??? Are you serious? [Scrubbed]...

[AKA_Bait]

It started with a thread called Astrids Parlor: A Haven for Female Gamers. Then it became an entire forum dedicated to seperating female and male gamers from posting in the same forums. Soon after anyone raising their voice in concern of this segregation was banned.

Just out of curiosity... do you happen to be one of these banned champions of equal private forum rights?


WOTC has done all this, not out of concern for female gamers, but rather to bolster sales of a book. A book that tells women to mark down what shoe size their character is and what shoes they are currently wearing.

WotC is a corporation. Their concern for female gamers is exactly the same as their concern for the book as the book was intended to increase the number of female gamers. You may not like their expression of that concern, and boycott if you like, but let's not pretend the two are as separate as you warrant here.


Hey now, that random prostitute table is a useful tool. I always run out of ideas for what prostitutes the characters meet in their seedy urban adventures. Which is exaccerbated by the fact that they actively seek out aforementioned ladies (and gentlemen) of the night. Yeah, my players suck.

Humm... a good quarter to half of my gaming groups are female and a specific desire to roleplay out dealing with prostitutes (who aren't actually NPC's involved in the plot) has never come up. Is your group entirely male?


All that said, I've seen the book that WotC is selling, and I don;t think it's all that great. Of course, I'm a guy, so what the hell do I know about it, but still, it doesn't seem like the kind of thing the female gamers I know would buy. Of course, they all seem to play World of Darkness. Don't know why. I hate that series.

Well, I don't think that the demographic for the book is female gamers. It seems to me that it's women who aren't gamers but who might be if the activity was presented in a light they feel more comfortable with. The additional forum is, I'm assuming, partially with that in mind. A new gamer, female or not, could be pretty intimidated by some of the discussions on the Wizards boards just on the basis of how much knowledge many of the posters have and assume that others do as a matter of course. Add in the additional uncomfotability of being in a small minority of the overall forum and a separate one might not be a bad idea if others would take it in the spirit the forum is intended.



Anywhere public there are female gamers, there are male gamers making fools of themselves.

The things men and boys do when they think with Mr. Happy....

QFT. Particularly, and sadly, when the majority of the demographic in question (guys who play D&D) is not exactly what one might call 'suave'.

All this said, I'm going to go buy a copy of the book now. I forgot it was released already and I'm curious. Maybe I'll come back with a different tune, but I doubt it. I'd be surprised if the book was really good but I'd also be surprised if it was really sexist or the intent of the forum relating to it were. WotC is too canny for that.

[Fhaolan]

Aside from that, the gaming and general geek community has always been composed of a largely male fanbase.

Except in some subsets of gaming and geek community, for some strange reason. For example, Vampire LARPs had a very large number of females from the begining. Nowadays that's spread to all LARPs, and even the boffer LARPs, which sterotypes would make you think would be dominated by men, usually aren't. In other areas of geekdom, Star Trek fandom has always had a huge number of women in it. Many of which went on to become professional sci-fi authors.

I've never met a woman who didn't want to join a game because it was a 'guy thing'. They didn't want to join because a) they didn't like or know the other people in the group, b) they didn't have time to commit to a regular game, c) weren't interested in fantasy or RPGs in general, or d) *really* didn't like the other people in the group.

[Atirakis]

Probably not too far off the truth. :)

That said, the whole idea of trying to segregate gamers by gender is unbelievably stupid. But I think DeathQuaker's got it right - this was incompetence rather than malice. (Like usual.)

- Saph

Oh I agree. It was not blatant fascism or pure evil, just ignorant management of their forums and marketing strategies.

In the end though the reasons for it are moot, the problems it has caused and will continue to cause is the concern here.

[horseboy]

At least at the start, I don't believe males were discouraged to post, but more that so many males showed up to talk about how they knew everything about female gamers, that the female gamers felt intimidated from posting--which was exactly what the forum had been designed to prevent.

Out of curiosity, how does one become intimidated over the internet? That seems a lot like being afraid in real life of your buddy's character.

[Donovan]

Blah blah blah unfair. Blah blah blah sexist. Blah blah blah boycot.

Near as I can tell, you have a case of butthurt because WotC made a female only board. This is the first thing I have heard about this, so I will run off of that assumption.

I'm actually interested in hearing the reason why this is bothering you; and "sexism is wrong" doesn't count. Are you a man who is upset because you didn't get a "guy's only" forum; or are you concerned that WotC is trying to cubbyhole female gamers into there own little back corner?

[Rachel Lorelei]

You're kidding right? They didn't put that in the game, right?:smalleek:

Hate to say it, but am I ever not kidding. I am not kidding so hard. You can download a 1E DMG somewhere, I suspect, and see it for yourself. It's not just sexist--there's gay-bashing in there, too.


Atirakis, you better be female. Otherwise, your opinion about what is insulting to women gamers holds no weight.
Um, being female doesn't mean someone (say, me) gets to speak for all women, and being male doesn't mean someone can't speak about what's insulting to women gamers. I'm white, but I can tell that using the N-word in a derogatory fashion is insulting to black people, and I've had straight friends (rightfully--I wish more people would) speak out about using "gay" as a derogatory term.



Meh.

They should have created two forums, one for female gamers and one for people who wish to complain about the other forums, and of course keep all existing forums open to everybody regardless of gender. That's probably the quickest way to deal with this tempest-in-a-teacup.
The forum was open to everybody regardless of gender.


If I may ask on a tangent - is it the case that most people complaining about sexism in games are American? Because I wonder if this is a culture thing. I don't live even remotely near the USA, but I don't think I've ever encountered blatant sexism in gaming, and about one-quarter of the gamers I know are female.
I suspect it's more prevalent in America, yes. The US is surprisingly socially backward in many ways, compared to other first-world countries.


Rape their characters? Frankly it has never come up; nobody even suggested such a thing in any campaign I've played in. No, not even when we were playing evil, and not even when we were fifteen.
You're lucky. You probably haven't seen anyone make a Lesbian Stripper Ninja, either.

[Fhaolan]

You're kidding right? They didn't put that in the game, right?:smalleek:

Page 192 of the AD&D DMG (1st printing). As part of the City/Town Encounters list. Right between 'Goodwife' and 'Illusionist'.

[Lord Tataraus]

Meh.

They should have created two forums, one for female gamers and one for people who wish to complain about the other forums, and of course keep all existing forums open to everybody regardless of gender. That's probably the quickest way to deal with this tempest-in-a-teacup.

If I may ask on a tangent - is it the case that most people complaining about sexism in games are American? Because I wonder if this is a culture thing. I don't live even remotely near the USA, but I don't think I've ever encountered blatant sexism in gaming, and about one-quarter of the gamers I know are female.

Rape their characters? Frankly it has never come up; nobody even suggested such a thing in any campaign I've played in. No, not even when we were playing evil, and not even when we were fifteen.

Ah yes, good ol' America. We are, as a whole, a passionate people when it comes to anything that we have a history of (i.e. racism because of slavery).
Every other nation I know of who had such problems got over a lot better than we did. But, America is a very strange place as opposed to the rest of the world. Take the word America as a reference to the US, pure arrogance. USA-ians have everything backwards. We would rather have our children see violence rather then sex, yet we have one of the worst obsessions with pornography. We preach equality of the world and view ourselves as above all others. Isn't the US great? I'm glad to be apart of it.:smallannoyed:
[/rant]

[Rex Blunder]

Out of curiosity, how does one become intimidated over the internet? That seems a lot like being afraid in real life of your buddy's character.

If you don't thrive on conflict, and feel unhappy when someone insults you, i can imagine many online communities where you'd be intimidated to post.

[DraPrime]

In the end though the reasons for it are moot, the problems it has caused and will continue to cause is the concern here.

Is it? Intentions mean nothing? They did something stupid. It wasn't morally wrong. It was just plain dumb.

[Silkenfist]

Oh, and something about sexism in my campaigns. I plead guilty. I am a huge fan of realism in gaming. I would never ever deny a player a certain concept because it doesn't fit the gender, I wouldn't hose them for playing a certain gender or have the gender interfere with the game mechanics.

However, the actual roleplaying will be influenced by the gender, the player chooses. IRL, sexism is omnipresent and many communities (animal or human) have one gender dominating the other. Males and Females just aren't the same and I see no reason for acting like there were no genders in this world. Most of the brutish short-lived warfaring races in my world are misogynist. Of course they are. They live in a culture which encourages aggressive testosterone-driven patriarchal behaviour. Of course, male traits will beome dominant. I would never disallow Female Orcish Barbarians, but when they interact with Orcish tribes, they may encounter some prejudices.

For the standard D&D races, I see little gender difference. I'll always have more male warriors and more female retainers/caretakers, since physis and reproductive activity favor this divison. However, it is less rigid and no choice of career is seen of unfitting. For the races with a particularly long life, like the Elves, gender differences are pretty nonexistant.

Also, should my players complain about the sexism, there's always the Underdark. Drow society doesn't need any explanation and the Kobolds in my world are matriarchal as well, albeit not as fierce as the Drow. Again, it just makes sense. Kobold eggs need to be hatched and protected. For a nest of eggs to survive until the Kobolds are hatched, the strength of the mother is more important - thus, the females become larger, stronger and more dominant (Also, Females can get rid of any egg before the Kobold has hatched and gain more control over the offspring).


Plus, gender differences may kick in for certain NPC's even if their society as a whole isn't sexist. The BBEG may be sexist as part of his character and try to humilitate the female party members. On the other hand, he might underestimate them and give them a better shot at his back. Everything's possible, and it is up to you to decide which role the character's gender has in your world and how your NPC's react to it.
There's only one thing I want to bring home: Don't just create a world without gender differences. You're stripping your game of realism, flavor and plot hooks. And if you feel that one gender is at a disadvantage...it's a fantasy world. You'll find something to balance the scales.

[Atirakis]

Just out of curiosity... do you happen to be one of these banned champions of equal private forum rights?

First of all I never claimed to be a champion of anything, simply an enemy of ignorance. Secondly since you ask, yes I was banned.

I was banned for saying that women who do not want to play with men were just as unwelcome as men who do not want to play with women.

This came after several days of discussion in which everyone agreed that men who did not want to play with or made gaming less than fun for women were an unwelcome part of the community. The moderators had came and went and had obviously found nothing wrong with saying that since those posts are still up and unedited today.

However as soon as someone said something about the forums being a great idea and a way for females to organize games without men and I replied with my above statement, I was banned within the hour.

Fair treatment or blatant sexism? I don't know if it falls neatly into either of those boxes but I am calling shenannigans on the whole thing.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Out of curiosity, how does one become intimidated over the internet? That seems a lot like being afraid in real life of your buddy's character.

The "[Breasts] or GTFO" phenomenon led to me spending quite a while pretending to be male. I was tired of being asked for pictures, of myself or just my secondary sexual characteristics, tired of being hit on, tired of hearing that someone must have given me whatever item because I'm a girl, that I can't possibly play well because I'm a girl. Being gay didn't make it any easier, either.

Believe me, it's just as easy to create a hostile environment on the web as it is in real life.

[Alleine]

Well, seeing as a lot of the internet views girls in general as objects(see- Starcraft games) I really don't mind if girl gamers get their own forum. Not that I care all that much to begin with. Heck, I'm a guy and I even wouldn't mind having a separate forum, except it isn't easy to make a forum that rejects all stupid people.

Meh.

[Atirakis]

Near as I can tell, you have a case of butthurt because WotC made a female only board. This is the first thing I have heard about this, so I will run off of that assumption.

I'm actually interested in hearing the reason why this is bothering you; and "sexism is wrong" doesn't count. Are you a man who is upset because you didn't get a "guy's only" forum; or are you concerned that WotC is trying to cubbyhole female gamers into there own little back corner?

You know what they say about assumptions don't you?

Anyways I digress, no I don't want a "guy only" forum nor do I want any forum that sperates people in any way shape or form other than by what game it is they would like to play, i.e. Forgotten Realms or Eberron? D20 Modern or Star Wars Saga?

Other than that we are all gamers and male or female, black or white, we have basically the same concerns and issues and dividing us does nothing except limit the amount and diversity of other gamers reading and responding to the issues we post.

[tainsouvra]

I was banned for saying that women who do not want to play with men were just as unwelcome as men who do not want to play with women. If you just happened to have said that on a forum whose purpose was to basically be a "girl gamers' club" then you really shouldn't be surprised. That's some serious ban-hammer tempting there--it really wasn't the right place to make that comment. You probably didn't intend any harm, but it was not an appropriate place to say it.

[Rachel Lorelei]

First of all I never claimed to be a champion of anything, simply an enemy of ignorance. Secondly since you ask, yes I was banned.

I was banned for saying that women who do not want to play with men were just as unwelcome as men who do not want to play with women.
Women are a minority in gaming. You were saying "what? No, having a minority space is bad!"
You need to understand that it's not. Again, for the same reasons there's a NAACP but a NAAWP would be decried (rightfully) for being horribly racist.


However as soon as someone said something about the forums being a great idea and a way for females to organize games without men and I replied with my above statement, I was banned within the hour.
I'd love to try an all-female game sometime. I've had some that were fairly close, and the dynamic was definitely different.
Yes, having an all-female game *is* different from having a "no girls allowed!" game. This is so because women in gaming, overall, are a minority and face a whole lot of misogyny.


Fair treatment or blatant sexism? I don't know if it falls neatly into either of those boxes but I am calling shenannigans on the whole thing.
Your real problem seems to be that you were banned. You'll get over it.



Other than that we are all gamers and male or female, black or white, we have basically the same concerns and issues and dividing us does nothing except limit the amount and diversity of other gamers reading and responding to the issues we post.
You are kidding yourself. No, we don't have the same concerns and issues. You have no idea of what it's like to be a girl at the gaming table. It's not the same as being a guy. I bet you've never had to deal with a DM making all NPCs of your gender mindless sexpots, for example, or had an employee ask "hey, is that for your boyfriend? --No, come on, seriously," or "are you sure you don't want the simple version/this other stereotypically gender-appropriate game?"
I'll say it again--I do drag passably well. I have gone in a male persona to both games and gaming stores, just to see the differences firsthand.
They exist, and most often they're significant.


For the record, I don't think the people acting stupid on the issue were WotC.
I think it was the guys rushing into the forum to scream about OMG THEY'RE BEING PERSECUTED.

[Atirakis]

Is it? Intentions mean nothing? They did something stupid. It wasn't morally wrong. It was just plain dumb.

When I say "It's the same in the end." I do not mean that intentions mean nothing. Obviously if WOTC intended to be blatantly sexist I would be far more outraged and so should everyone else. But I agree that they were just negligent in their handling of things and shouldn't be crucifed, just corrected.

What I meant was that in the end, regardless of intentions, we have the same problem to deal with.

[DraPrime]

When I say "It's the same in the end." I do not mean that intentions mean nothing. Obviously if WOTC intended to be blatantly sexist I would be far more outraged and so should everyone else. But I agree that they were just negligent in their handling of things and shouldn't be crucifed, just corrected.

What I meant was that in the end, regardless of intentions, we have the same problem to deal with.

And what would be the same problem that we have to deal with? That WotC make a pathetic and stupid attempt at being more inclusive to girl gamers?

[Atirakis]

Women are a minority in gaming. You were saying "what? No, having a minority space is bad!"
You need to understand that it's not. Again, for the same reasons there's a NAACP but a NAAWP would be decried (rightfully) for being horribly racist.


I'd love to try an all-female game sometime. I've had some that were fairly close, and the dynamic was definitely different.
Yes, having an all-female game *is* different from having a "no girls allowed!" game. This is so because women in gaming, overall, are a minority and face a whole lot of misogyny.


Your real problem seems to be that you were banned. You'll get over it.


You are kidding yourself. No, we don't have the same concerns and issues. You have no idea of what it's like to be a girl at the gaming table. It's not the same as being a guy. I bet you've never had to deal with a DM making all NPCs of your gender mindless sexpots. I'll say it again--I do drag passably well. I have gone in a male persona to both games and gaming stores, just to see the differences firsthand.
They exist, and most often they're significant.

Ahhh I see now, your one of those people who believe that special treatment is the "right way" to make up for unfair treatment in the past?

I for one think the NAACP is just as dumb an idea as a female forum.

And although some people might enjoy a male or female only game, if we can all agree that men who do not want to play with women are unwelcome than how is it wrong to say that women who do not want to play with men are unwelcome?

NINJA EDIT: And for the record yes we most certainly DO have the same concerns and issues. I know female gamers and the concerns they face a hell of a lot better than you seem to think trying to feed me that line about dressing as a man and seeing firsthand the difference.

The only concern that female gamers have that is in any way shape or form exclusively a female gamer concern is that some, I repeat, SOME MALE GAMERS treat them differently because of their gender. Thats it. One thing. And that one thing can be and is being handled through simply informing, or when necessary, excluding those gamers that harbor old habits of exclusion, sexism, racism, etc.

[Saph]

Anyway, to answer the OP;

Yes, it's a double standard; yes, it's unfair. However, the best way to deal with these kinds of things, as long as they aren't too disruptive, is to ignore them.

In this case, from what I remember the last time I skimmed, about the only traffic on the Astrid forum was about people arguing about the forum. If everyone had ignored it the forum probably would have just died a natural death. As a general rule, if any subgroup really wants to hang out only with its own members, they'll sort out their own hangout place on their own initiative long before the people in charge get around to doing anything about it. Top-down attempts to divide people into groups based on identity politics rarely work - which is lucky for the rest of us. :)

- Saph

[Rachel Lorelei]

Ahhh I see now, your one of those people who believe that special treatment is the "right way" to make up for unfair treatment in the past?
Racism and sexism are not "in the past". They exist. Right now. And even more so in gaming than in society as a whole.
Mistreated minority groups read minority spaces sometime. It's a staple of gender or racial issues philosophy; you'd do well to read up. Again, an example: have you ever had a DM make pretty much every NPC of your gender in the game a sexually tittilating stereotype?


I for one think the NAACP is just as dumb an idea as a female forum.
And that's a naive and fairly offensive thing to say. As long as, for example, being named "Tyrone" makes your job application significantly more likely to be rejected, the NAACP is good (and even necessary).


And although some people might enjoy a male or female only game, if we can all agree that men who do not want to play with women are unwelcome than how is it wrong to say that women who do not want to play with men are unwelcome?
Because gaming is a male-dominated hobby that is often hostile to women, whether actively or passively, intentionally or not. That is why. Because there's a difference between excluding a minority and creating a safe space for one.

[DraPrime]

I bet you've never had to deal with a DM making all NPCs of your gender mindless sexpots.

Ironically I had a DM who made all male NPCs incredibly horny. Kind of disturbing, but this is very rare. Creepy thing was, I know people who act like those NPCs. They're also known as "high-schoolers with the minds of 10 year olds"

[Fax Celestis]

Let's be straight here: how much does this really matter to our community here? WotC != GitP (thank god), and nothing that happens on the WotC forum really has any relevance on this side of the intartubez pond.

WotC made a blunder, doesn't know how to clean it up, and is not doing a very good job of fixing the situation. That doesn't mean, however, that we are all immediately and inexorably bound to calling attention to their blunder, because that merely makes the situation worse.

I would venture to say that you, Atirakis, were not actually banned for anything other than merely exacerbating the problem. And frankly, I'd say rightly so. But let them handle their mistakes in their own way: It's not your job to take care of it or to "prove the error of their ways"; it is their forum staff's job to tend to the forum, and their PR department's job to repair damage that's been done.

Let them do their job.

[Lord Tataraus]

Ahhh I see now, your one of those people who believe that special treatment is the "right way" to make up for unfair treatment in the past?

I for one think the NAACP is just as dumb an idea as a female forum.

And although some people might enjoy a male or female only game, if we can all agree that men who do not want to play with women are unwelcome than how is it wrong to say that women who do not want to play with men are unwelcome?

I disagree. Nowhere did I get the assumption that she "believes that special treatment is the "right way" to make up for unfair treatment in the past". She was merely pointing out the unfairness of the world to majorities. Whether or not she did so knowingly. I find that accusation offensive. I personally believe that it is fine to have a guys only or a girls only game. Both would have (hopefully) a different feel. Of course I am in the minority of gentlemanly conduct, so a guys-only game might be the same as a mixed game.

[DraPrime]

Fax_Celestis is once again, infinite in his wisdom.

[Silkenfist]

And although some people might enjoy a male or female only game, if we can all agree that men who do not want to play with women are unwelcome than how is it wrong to say that women who do not want to play with men are unwelcome?

Because the women who do not want to play with men (anymore), are almost without exceptions women who were treated badly by other players or the DM. Women who encountered discrimination, sexism and bad treatment and the gaming table and were hindered to enjoy the game just because of their gender (and the fact that their fellow gamers were too stupid to deal with it).

Now can you say the same for your male gamers. Can you name 1 (In words ONE) example, anywhere on this green planet where this happened to a male gamer in a female community? There would be a male-only forum if there was a need for it.

[tannish2]

{Scrubbed}

[Lord Tataraus]

Let's be straight here: how much does this really matter to our community here? WotC != GitP (thank god), and nothign that happens on the WotC forum really has any relevance on this side of the intartubez pond.

WotC made a blunder, doesn't know how to clean it up, and is not doing a very good job of fixing the situation. That doesn't mean, however, that we are all immediately and inexorably bound to calling attention to their blunder, because that merely makes the situation worse.

I would venture to say that you, Atirakis, were not actually banned for anything other than merely exacerbating the problem. And frankly, I'd say rightly so. But let them handle their mistakes in their own way: It's not your job to take care of it or to "prove the error of their ways"; it is their forum staff's job to tend to the forum, and their PR department's job to repair damage that's been done.

Let them do their job.

Agreed.
And seeing as this really has little relevance to this forum, I would not be surprised to see this thread closed soon.

[Kurald Galain]

Out of curiosity, how does one become intimidated over the internet? That seems a lot like being afraid in real life of your buddy's character.
Oh, trust me, people do. It's basic psychology. It's not really that people believe that SomeRandomPerson they met on the internet will come and beat them up, or anything, but it is that many people, to a varying extent, do feel emotionally uncomfortable with people who vehemently disagree with them and/or post content they perceive as insulting.



The forum was open to everybody regardless of gender.
Good. I suspect, then, they wanted it open to everybody that has at least a basic maturity level.

By the way what's the NAACP? I'd estimate something like a National Association of Colored People? Something like that?



You're lucky. You probably haven't seen anyone make a Lesbian Stripper Ninja, either.
A what? That does not compute :smalltongue:


Other than that we are all gamers and male or female, black or white, we have basically the same concerns and issues and dividing us does nothing except limit the amount and diversity of other gamers reading and responding to the issues we post.
Aside from the fact that not everybody has the same concerns and issues, "dividing people" isn't actually the issue at hand here. People aren't trying to separate gamers into male and female, or sexist and tolerant, and whatnot; people are trying to enable a certain group of people to have a discussion without it being drowned out by others who miss the point. That is precisely why we don't hold most of our RPG-related discussions on fundamentalist religious newsgroups - they'd miss the point and drown them out.

[Donovan]

You know what they say about assumptions don't you?

Anyways I digress, no I don't want a "guy only" forum nor do I want any forum that sperates people in any way shape or form other than by what game it is they would like to play, i.e. Forgotten Realms or Eberron? D20 Modern or Star Wars Saga?

Other than that we are all gamers and male or female, black or white, we have basically the same concerns and issues and dividing us does nothing except limit the amount and diversity of other gamers reading and responding to the issues we post.

Wow... I'm stunned. How truly egalitarian of you. Unfortunately, your rage is misplaced. It's a sub-forum with a specific focus, much like the CO or the CD forums. However, instead of working on how to break the game or how to build a backstory, it focuses on the issues female gamers face. There are much more interesting and pressing matters to get on your soapbox about.

However, more likely your [Scrubbed] looking to stir up controversy on this board with a fabricated "hot button" issue or your still smarting from getting banned and your going someplace looking to make yourself out like some sort of oppressed martyr. Either way, this is a non issue and really doesn't merit more posts.

[Scrubbed]

[DraPrime]

Wow... I'm stunned. How truly egalitarian of you. Unfortunately, your rage is misplaced. It's a sub-forum with a specific focus, much like the CO or the CD forums. However, instead of working on how to break the game or how to build a backstory, it focuses on the issues female gamers face. There are much more interesting and pressing matters to get on your soapbox about.

However, more likely your [Scrubbed] looking to stir up controversy on this board with a fabricated "hot button" issue or your still smarting from getting banned and your going someplace looking to make yourself out like some sort of oppressed martyr. Either way, this is a non issue and really doesn't merit more posts.

[Scrubbed]

With that said let's just kill this thread.

[Silkenfist]

And once again a post on the issue of sexism in-character. I don't have the 1E DMG, so can anyone tell me why creating NPC prostitutes is bad? Let's face it: It's one of the oldest professions of mankind. It is not pretty but it exists nonetheless, in almost all society in the world and regardless of attempts to ban it. I wouldn't place prostitutes in a game with underage (<14 years) players, but why not place them in the background of a certain scenario.
They might even come in handy as plot NPC's. Why not? After all they do have contact with a lot of the townspeople, especially the ones with the fatter purses. And they might have some information about the local merchants/judges/mayor to offer. Or be able to give the party access to them. As long as you don't make them "mindless sexpots", I don't see the reason against them.

Once again: Arguing for no sexism OOC, no sexism mechanic-wise, some sexism flavor-wise. (With emphasis on the first two)

[Atirakis]

Racism and sexism are not "in the past". They exist. Right now. And even more so in gaming than in society as a whole.
Mistreated minority groups read minority spaces sometime. It's a staple of gender or racial issues philosophy; you'd do well to read up. Again, an example: have you ever had a DM make pretty much every NPC of your gender in the game a sexually tittilating stereotype?
Racism and sexism do not exist like you seem to be claiming. To deny that they exist at all would be incredibly ignorant of anyone, but to imply that they are the problems they once were is equally foolish. Bottom line is that there are laws in place now that protect everyone from discrimination. It's not perfect and there are some groups of people that cling to old ideas but every group and club out there with the exception of specific hate groups has been forced to let in women and minorities.

The point is that I don't know what gaming groups you've been around but at every convention and large gathering of gamers I have ever been to there has not been a single case of someone being excluded due to race or gender. So where is the problem that needs special treatment to fix?



And that's a naive and fairly offensive thing to say. As long as, for example, being named "Tyrone" makes your job application significantly more likely to be rejected, the NAACP is good (and even necessary).
Tyrone would have about as good a chance as someone named Hans or Jacques. This is because of cultural naming standards and has nothing to do with their skin color. If the person doing the hiring is making judgements on name then he is going to do it regardless of whether the NAACP exists or not, the only thing the NAACP does is enforce a minimum quota for colleges to meet for accepting minority applicants.

It should be based soley on grades and ability to pay the tuition. But then again I also believe that men and women should have the same physical tests to become police or fire fighters.


Because gaming is a male-dominated hobby that is often hostile to women, whether actively or passively, intentionally or not. That is why. Because there's a difference between excluding a minority and creating a safe space for one.
Ahhh I see so its a good thing to create a female exclusive enviroment but a bad thing to create a male exclusive one?

Its a good thing to create an african american exclusive enviroment but not a caucasian exclusive one?

Wow what a backwards way of thinking, I hope seriously that your way of thinking is dying out so that we can all move forward into brighter times to come.

[horseboy]

Oh, trust me, people do. It's basic psychology. It's not really that people believe that SomeRandomPerson they met on the internet will come and beat them up, or anything, but it is that many people, to a varying extent, do feel emotionally uncomfortable with people who vehemently disagree with them and/or post content they perceive as insulting.
I can see Rachel's problem of being annoyed, but to actually be intimidated because someone said something just mystifies me that someone could be that thinned skinned and live.



A what? That does not compute :smalltongue:
She left off the "cat girl" part. You can't forget about that! :smallwink:

[DraPrime]

Oh just please end this. We've sufficiently crushed any claims of sexism, and classified this as a big screw up on WotC's part.

[Saph]

Oh just please end this. We've sufficiently crushed any claims of sexism, and classified this as a big screw up on WotC's part.

Agreed. Rachel, Atirakis, please just stop the argument, or the mods will end up doing it for you. Take it to PMs or something.

- Saph

[Atirakis]

You know what I had a lengthy response typed up to the accusation of me being a troll looking to cause trouble but screw it, think whatever you would like to think since you will no matter what I say anyways.

Thats the nature of people today, you already have the verdict decided before the opening statement is read.

[DraPrime]

Thats the nature of people today, you already have the verdict decided before the opening statement is read.

What a wonderful assumption. It might be true if we hadn't actually given you proof as to why we believed what we did, but sadly we did, so I'm pretty sure we had a valid opinion. And that will be my final post on this ridiculous thread.

[Silkenfist]

Racism and sexism do not exist like you seem to be claiming. To deny that they exist at all would be incredibly ignorant of anyone, but to imply that they are the problems they once were is equally foolish.

Correct. But Rachel never claimed that. In fact nobody did. This is just your way to avoid the actual argument, which reads: "Sexism is still present. Enough to make female-only clubs needful"



Bottom line is that there are laws in place now that protect everyone from discrimination. It's not perfect and there are some groups of people that cling to old ideas but every group and club out there with the exception of specific hate groups has been forced to let in women and minorities.

Yes, but once again you are MISSING THE DAMN POINT. The point is NOT that the females were excluded from the game. The point is that they were treated offensive. There is no law to protect them from that except for common sense, which seems not to be strongest attribute of the gamers in question.



The point is that I don't know what gaming groups you've been around but at every convention and large gathering of gamers I have ever been to there has not been a single case of someone being excluded due to race or gender. So where is the problem that needs special treatment to fix?

See above.



Tyrone would have about as good a chance as someone named Hans or Jacques. This is because of cultural naming standards and has nothing to do with their skin color.

Once again. You are not avoiding the question. Of course, someone named Tyrone might be Caucasian (Or Inuit or Aboriginee or whatver). However, they will have worse chances because the name triggers the association "Evil Black Man" and behaviour based on stereotypes and prejudices. I don't have my social psychology books at home right now, but I can dig you up some studies with exactly this result.



If the person doing the hiring is making judgements on name then he is going to do it regardless of whether the NAACP exists or not, the only thing the NAACP does is enforce a minimum quota for colleges to meet for accepting minority applicants.

True. But this isn't valid for the argument. If stereotypes exist and hinder people because of their skin colour/gender/whatever, they still need to be neutralized.



It should be based soley on grades and ability to pay the tuition.

And the fact that most of America's black population is born into poverty without any chance to pay the tuition isn't interesting at all, right?



But then again I also believe that men and women should have the same physical tests to become police or fire fighters.

[Scrubbed] This is just like winning against girls in armwrestling and being proud because it was a fair fight. Women have a different physis (Hormones and stuff) than men. Men and Women with equal physical training won't get the same results. Men can build up muscle mass more easily while females build up fat tissue quicker. If you lower the bar for females, then it just brings it to the point, where men and females pass if they put equal effort into training.



Ahhh I see so its a good thing to create a female exclusive enviroment but a bad thing to create a male exclusive one?

That point is tricky, since I am not strongly against boy's clubs. But you haven't answered my question: Where are the boys/men, that need this environment? Tell me of them.



Its a good thing to create an african american exclusive enviroment but not a caucasian exclusive one?

See above. [scrubbed]

[Fhaolan]

She left off the "cat girl" part. You can't forget about that! :smallwink:

Space Pirate Amazon Ninja Catgirls!

http://www.sjgames.com/spanc/

[Silkenfist]

You know what I had a lengthy response typed up to the accusation of me being a troll looking to cause trouble but screw it, think whatever you would like to think since you will no matter what I say anyways.

Thats the nature of people today, you already have the verdict decided before the opening statement is read.

And I believe this is the forum equivalent of sticking the finger in your ears and singing "Lalala can't hear you."

Anyway, since this seems to be resolved, I'd still like to debate my 2 cents about sexism in-character and campaigns with sexist NPC's. Your thoughts on them? Or major NPC plot-hook prostitutes (where I still don't know what's so bad about them)?

[Arakune]

And I believe this is the forum equivalent of sticking the finger in your ears and singing "Lalala can't hear you."

Anyway, since this seems to be resolved, I'd still like to debate my 2 cents about sexism in-character and campaigns with sexist NPC's. Your thoughts on them? Or major NPC plot-hook prostitutes (where I still don't know what's so bad about them)?

At least I tough it was a random table to determine which kind of prostitute you are going to meet (like a monster encounter). Yes, it's stupid, but Wis is (one) of my dumb stats.

[Kurald Galain]

Anyway, since this seems to be resolved, I'd still like to debate my 2 cents about sexism in-character and campaigns with sexist NPC's.

I thought it best to start a new thread for that.

[Dullyanna]

I can see Rachel's problem of being annoyed, but to actually be intimidated because someone said something just mystifies me that someone could be that thinned skinned and live.

To be honest, I'm one of those people... Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with having a few prostitutes or whatever in a game. That's just a bit of realism.What I don't like is when almost every female NPC is a whore-bag, or when immature players make a derogatory stereotype of a character. That being said, I hope this thread is struck down, ASAP.

[Person_Man]

Anywho, here's the OotS thread on the book (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56304), for those who might be interested.

You know, this whole thing sorta reminds me of the current problems with government contracting in the U.S.

The government hands out hundreds of billions of dollars in contracts every year. The vast majority of this money goes to a small number of firms which are owned by rich white men, and the top ranks of their high paid staff are usually rich white men. Some of these contracts are awarded to rich white male companies because the owners have deep political connections, and 90% of former federally elected and appointed officials officials are 90% white men (these are usually known as "sole source" contracts). Some of these contracts are awarded primarily to white men because experience is always part of any competitive contract scoring, and one of the best and easiest ways to show experience is to be a former elected or appointed official, and/or to be one of the small number of companies that's been dominating a particular type of contracting for dozens of years. Companies which coincidentally are all owned by rich white men.

So someone creates the brilliant idea to set aside a few hundred million dollars (generally less then 1% of all contracts) for female or minority owned firms, in an attempt to provide more opportunity to people who aren't rich white men. But of course, this pisses off the rich white men, because they're rational economic utility maximizers trying to maintain an oligopoly. And it really pisses off poor white men, who are now doubly screwed because someone hasn't set aside some crumbs just for poor white men.

It's interesting for me to see this all play out in the D&D world. I honestly don't know if this book and the segregated forum helps or hurts gender equality, and I don't know enough about the backstory to judge whether or not WotC has been idiots about it. Obviously this isn't about WotC handing out too much money to just men. Quite the opposite, its about WotC only getting 99% of its money from men, trying its hardest to try and expand their market segment, and doing a really poor job of it.

I do know that one of the best ways to tear down sexism is to simply point it out to people and show them how irrational it is. And threads like this one are obviously a very good thing for doing just that.

[Silkenfist]

At least I tough it was a random table to determine which kind of prostitute you are going to meet (like a monster encounter). Yes, it's stupid, but Wis is (one) of my dumb stats.

OK, now this is...strange. If a player says, his character tries to find a prostitute for the night, I treat it about the same as if they say, they are going to get wasted in the tavern. It's either "OK, you have a few hours of fun, please remove 5 sp from your treasure list" or I'll fix a plot hook to their nightly activities. Fleshing this out to random encounters and adding details to it... it's just something I wouldn't do.

[Silkenfist]

I do know that one of the best ways to tear down sexism is to simply point it out to people and show them how irrational it is. And threads like this one are obviously a very good thing for doing just that.

Unforunately, the rest of your post showed why it doesn't work. Sexism in business pays. If you belong to the top dogs and benefit from the current social order, which motivation do you have to change it?

[SpiderKoopa]

Probably not too far off the truth. :)

That said, the whole idea of trying to segregate gamers by gender is unbelievably stupid. But I think DeathQuaker's got it right - this was incompetence rather than malice. (Like usual.)



Yes, I think so. I've always found things the other way around, myself - the girls tend to get better treatment than the guys, simply due to their rarity. If there's any problem, it's that the guys treat them too carefully instead of lightening up and joking with them a bit more. But groups differ.

- Saph

I think it's more of a case-by-case basis. In my group there would be some differences just between players. I'll go from one extreme and transition to the other end:
My friend Kenny... well... he'd probably hit on the girl, etc. He's just that way. Hit on anything that moves...:smallsigh:
I would probably act as if she was just another person. Snarky come-backs, and joking around are prevelent.:smallbiggrin:
My friend Kevin would clam up probably and hide in his shell. More than likely trying hard not to offend the lady.:smallsmile:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I only heard vague rumors about the goings-on in Astrid's Parlor. Since it was billed as a haven for female gamers I figured there wouldn't be anything that I could contribute there that would be worthwhile, so I just didn't bother with it. I'm not sure if WOTC is sexist though. There's one place there where men and women meet, talk and even roleplay, and I somewhat sheepishly admit it's the place I spend most of my time at the D&D forums at. It's called the Mature Topics section.:smallredface:

Seriously, from what I've seen a large number of women visit that place. From the various boards for posting pictures of the numerous races and species (ranging from mildly sexual to downright pornographic, I tend to avoid them), to PG-13 to R roleplay threads like Pippa's Slavemarket and The Traveller's Respite (both of which I have contributed to since the beginning). I know that some are probably going to assume that it's mostly pimply 13-year-olds gushing about how hot this elf is or that halfing is, but there are some surprisingly mature female posters there. And then there are the ones who enjoy talking about sex non-stop, but both men and women do that and they mostly get ignored.

If this post has offended, please let me know and I shall attempt to remove it with the most expediency. Thank you, and good night.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: I'm going to leave this locked. Please remember that our Rules of Posting prohibit all flaming, trolling, and discussions of real world politics and religion.