Storm King's Thunder vs. Against the Giants

[Segev]

Looking way, way ahead, to if/when my players finish with Tomb of Annihilation, I notice that in my Tales From the Yawning Portal book is a module called Against the Giants that is set to start at level 11. I also note, in Tomb of Annihilation (which is designed to go to level 11) that there are frost giants looking around Chult for a magic item that is noted to be of interest to their Jarl in the module Storm King's Thunder. That module is also set to go 1-11, which means it wouldn't chain well.

I don't know much about Storm King's Thunder, though I've read a few reviews that have given me an overview of its plot. I'm thinking about lifting chunks of its plot out and refluffing Against the Giants and its locations to house the ambitions of various optional Giant Lords from SKT, though upping the ante on the last stretch is probably a full overhaul and may as well be developed on my own, if I'm reading the power levels right. Running Against the Giants straight out of the end of Tomb would likely carry a party to level 14 or 15, and that would leave the final stretch of dealing with a kraken and an ancient dragon that sounds like it's meant for level 11 a bit underpowered.

I'm looking for insight from those who're more familiar with both Giant-related modules. Can SKT be elevated to high-level? Does AtG retrofit into SKT in any reasonable way? Are there more points from SKT's plot that could be alluded to in ToA than just the Frost Giants' hunt for Artus Cimber?

Thoughts I've had so far (mostly disjointed and not likely usable without refinement for coherency and mutal inclusion) include having the hill, frost, and fire giant lairs and such from SKT be replaced by those from AtG, with the characters from SKT overwriting the characters from AtG. Having the half-elf sorceress seeking Artus to try to steal the Ring of Winter be in some way tied to Iymreth - perhaps she's set on the quest by Iymreth to further frustrate the Frost Giants? Not entirely sure how Iymrith's plot to foment trouble amidst the giants is served or harmed by the Jarl finding the Ring - could help, though I almost want to link her more into ToA's plot proper if I go that route.

There's apparently a friendly cloud giant early in SKT who has a flying castle; having him show up for some reason might be a cool point. I want to avoid having him become an easy travel method if I do, though. Chult is supposed to be a challenge of travel; I would save acquisition of an airship or flying castle for late, late in that module as a reward for overcoming some major obstacles.

Maybe Tinder and Calcryx (I have the party already running in Sunless Citadel; they've captured and returend Calcryx to the kobolds, and Yusadryl is trying to talk the dragon into cooperating, since their cage for her is busted and the Bugbear returning to take her again is a real possibility; I haven't decided how that will go, yet, and am open to suggestions here, too) be in some way related (enemies? on the run from? Stolen cousins to?) to Iymrith.

For massaging AtG into SKT's plot, the drow priestess with the tentacle rods could be an agent of Slarkrethel - Lolth wouldn't disapprove of aiding another evil being in spreading chaos, after all - but I'm unsure if I should have Slarkrethel's reach spread to influence the dragon turtle or pirates around Chult.

I am planning on having White Plume Mountain show up later; Valkur has already helped the half-orc barbarian come to a conclusion about dropping her unhappy pseudo-veneration of Gruumsh for a blind but hopeful veneration of Kubazan, and nobody who knows the truth about the Trickster Gods she's met has had the heart to fully explain their nature and...condition. She also wields a trident as a preferred weapon, so Wave will be attractive to her. Wave's feared destiny to "slay a sea god" may be related to Slarkrethel. For now, the half-orc will be guided to learn her new "god" is trapped in a tomb with eight others. There's a bit of a theme of "liberating things" here.

I was originally going to place the Hidden Shrine of Tamochan in Hisari, and tie Zotzilolha to the Gulthias Tree. The dwarven Archeologist (a Gloomstalker Ranger) has a map from his Background to Hisari that shows the nearby sunken city as still on (relatively) dry land; it's meant to be old. Now, though, I'm debating dropping the Forge of Fury there and making that a site linked to a war the dwarves lost with the Yuan-ti, but the Yuan-ti triggered something that drove them out in plundering it more recently, and tying that to the fire giant Duke's plans to restart HIS forge, somehow. Maybe a melding of the two, so the Zotzilolha temple and its traps are related to the dwarves or the yuan-ti... eh. I'll work on it. My main thought here is tying things to the potential SKT plot.

Ah, maybe the dragons in Chult can be targets of the Cloud Giant Countess. I understand she's got some sort of plan to torture magic out of dragons, somehow.

A rundown of the Giant Lords' plans and any interesting hooks or ties people can think of to things going on in Chult would be welcome. Might they be involved with what the Yuan-ti and Ras Nsi are up to?

I have lots of time to lay hooks and hints, so I don't need to go hard and heavy with them while the party is pursuing the ToA plot. Heck, they haven't even really learned about the Death Curse, yet; they will do that when they return the body of Tiryiki (who, in this game, went with the party into the Sunless Citadel that got captured/killed, and was the one that the Hobgoblin captain killed in a fit of pique; they found his corpse as one of the target dummies in the goblin archery range) to his mother, who will try to pay to have him Rez'd. Tiryiki and the party he came with were seeking the red fruit to try to help Sylvane, who I made an elf for my own purposes and whom Tiryiki crushed on in a "love at first sight" (or at least "lust at first sight") sort of way, and wanted to be her hero. The rest of the party that got caught are the same people, but are who she brought with her according to ToA's canon opening.

(I've also got the hobgoblin captain and his hobgoblin and bugbear men as former pirates; they were the ones that the wereboar pirate captain mutinied against and kicked out.)

But I digress. I have time to lay hooks and hints, because they're only level 3 and have a lot of ToA to go. But the earlier I decide on potential hooks and hints, the better and more subtly I can lay them to build on each other.

Also, a complaint I've seen in a couple reviews for SKT is that it was advertised as "using the power of the giants against them," and then didn't deliver, instead giving a one-off scene where the party grows to giant size for the climactic battle against Iymrith. I'm thinking of finding a way to work something that gives "giant size" as a random, not terribly potent tool (considering the size of Omu, the Fane of the Night Serpent, and the Tomb of the Nine Gods) sometime as they're nearing Omu, which may enable them to interact on Giant Scale more readily when they get there. Maybe as something with limited uses that they need to see some giants about repairing to become more reliable, so they can have run-ins with giants where growing huge isn't an option all the time.

Thoughts and comments on that - and everything else - are welcome. What I'm really asking for here is discussion on whether AtG can be effectively used to pump SKT up to a higher-level adventure, and how well lead-ins to SKT's plot (after pumping it up to a level 11+ adventure) can be worked into the various hooks and places of Chult and ToA.

Thanks!

[Fable Wright]

Does SKT scale well into high levels? I'll go with "yes". If you do all the content and fight all the giant lords, you can easily reach level 14-15 for the final fight. The kraken isn't really fought, instead behaving more like an interactive cutscene, and in the final fight, the PCs have six Giants willing to fight with them against the Ancient Sorcerer Dragon. If you want to make it harder, the giant lord encounters are fairly easily scalable, and the final fight becomes harder and harder the fewer allies the party can bring, and the smarter you play the dragon.

As for mixing into TOA, the middle section of SKT involves looking for ancient Giant relics. You could drop those into the jungles of Chult without issue, possibly with Giant explorers racing the party to them.

[Segev]

Does SKT scale well into high levels? I'll go with "yes". If you do all the content and fight all the giant lords, you can easily reach level 14-15 for the final fight. The kraken isn't really fought, instead behaving more like an interactive cutscene, and in the final fight, the PCs have six Giants willing to fight with them against the Ancient Sorcerer Dragon. If you want to make it harder, the giant lord encounters are fairly easily scalable, and the final fight becomes harder and harder the fewer allies the party can bring, and the smarter you play the dragon. Is the bulk of SKT just less combat-heavy, or against things that aren't giants, comparet to AtG? Or do the PCs have tons of allies that could be easily...reduced...in number?

I already have 3 blasted NPCs travelling with the party in ToA, and it's making fight's a doggon cakewalk. Fortunately, the players feel challenged anyway and are having fun, but I need to up my game, still, I think, or that is likely to change. But that's neither here nor there, and they're losing at least one NPC soon-ish. (Depending on their behavior, Eku may not re-up her contract, either; they're staying good, so far, but they're pushing it at times. I'm not doing as good a job as I should portraying Eku's displeasure when the barbarian is more chaotic than good. Weirdly, the LN monk hasn't done anything I could have Eku get offended by, despite her "only works with good characters" clause.)


As for mixing into TOA, the middle section of SKT involves looking for ancient Giant relics. You could drop those into the jungles of Chult without issue, possibly with Giant explorers racing the party to them.Is that segment as I've read in reviews? Just "go to one of several barrow mounds, dig up a random (as far as the players are concerned) item of moderate historical value, bring it back, and depending on which semi-random item you grabbed, you get told about one of the giant lords?" No review has managed to make that sound like more than make-work, to me. Can you elaborate on what it's meant to do, narratively or mechanically, to really advance (rather than needlessly forestall) the plot? I might be able to work with it - after all, there is an archeologist in the party - but I would need to come up with (or have suggested) something that makes it worth doing.

I'm already seriously considering using at least the Fire and Frost giant apocalypse plots as distinct things that the PCs will be exposed to as existential threats to deal with, rather than using an oracle to send them to just one. Especially since I have the AtG maps for the Glacial Rift and the Fire Giant Palace I can use as more level-appropriate locales.

The Stone Giants' "end of civilization" thing could tie in somehow with the Atropol and the undeath curse, maybe. I'm not sure. I don't have a tie-in for the hill giants' plot, but I'm inclined to go a bit of body horror/eldrich horror route (no clue if the module does this) and have her plan actually be something she can accomplish. Eating and eating and eating and having it genuinely make her a superior specimine that is getting bigger and bigger and perhaps more...alien intelligent. Though ceasing to feed the beast would make the intellect go away, if not the size.

[Fable Wright]

Is the bulk of SKT just less combat-heavy, or against things that aren't giants, comparet to AtG? Or do the PCs have tons of allies that could be easily...reduced...in number?

By chapter and pillar of gameplay that drives it...

Chapter 1: (Combat): Grind the players up to level 5 as fast as demihumanly possible.
Chapter 2: (Combat + Social): Drive home the threats of the Giants. Giants + Minions attack a nearby town; the giants are the spotlight, but the minions are various, and the start of the section is getting the players invested in these NPCs.
Chapter 3: (Exploration): Around a hundred and fifty locations. Forty six pages. Twenty random encounters. This is what makes or breaks the module for many. Random encounter on the road into two paragraph description? Storm King's Thunder becomes a chore for players. Put a random encounter right outside a location between sessions, and think about how to tail them together? The entire coast comes to life.
Chapter 4: (Literally Completely Pointless): "If you have yet to explore this vast and populated world that the GM is procedurally generating, go do this. You must be this (arrow points to point above ground) invested to proceed."
Chapter 5-9: (Combat/Social/Exploration): This is how the position is fortified. If you go in guns blazing, you're going to have a bad time. You can get information and possibly assistance from slaves, outcasts, dissenters, and so on, even though the giants will often attack intruders on sight. Sneak, social, explore, doesn't matter—you've got a single goal. Get creative. Retreat if you need to, and things become more interesting.
Chapter 10: (Social): Unlock the final mission by learning that not all giants are monsters, and not all the monsters are Giants.
Chapter 11: (Exploration/Social): Find the missing king. No Giant encounters. Buff up enemies with additional spellcasting.
Chapter 12: (Combat) Setpiece encounter of epic proportions.

Your goal is to take one of chapters 5-9 and pick up from there, hitting chapters 10, 11, and 12 afterwards for the grand finale. Chapter 9 has potentially the least combat, chapter 5 has the least Giants in combat and the most variety in enemies and is in the most need of buffing against level 14 PCs.


I already have 3 blasted NPCs travelling with the party in ToA, and it's making fight's a doggon cakewalk.

At level 2, my Druid went through hell and high water to purchase a pair of Triceratops for the group. That makes a lot of things a lot less threatening for a level 2 party. I entirely understand.


Is that segment as I've read in reviews? Just "go to one of several barrow mounds, dig up a random (as far as the players are concerned) item of moderate historical value, bring it back, and depending on which semi-random item you grabbed, you get told about one of the giant lords?" No review has managed to make that sound like more than make-work, to me. Can you elaborate on what it's meant to do, narratively or mechanically, to really advance (rather than needlessly forestall) the plot? I might be able to work with it - after all, there is an archeologist in the party - but I would need to come up with (or have suggested) something that makes it worth doing.

It is, 100%, makework, and they're really just 1-2 quick encounters along the way to bigger and better things. However, the key to SKT's success is to build up the impact that the Giants have... and hopefully manage to sneak in a tie between the enemies of chapter 11 and the exploration of the world in chapters 2 and 3.

The problem, of course, is that the Giants aren't really relevant to Chult. ToA, if I recall correctly, has long segments of exploration where you discover new things in the jungle which can be nifty, and add flavor to the world. Tossing in a (looted) Giant mound with the remains of Giants and Adventurers into those random jungle encounters gives the sense that the Giants are an aggressive force. A letter or similar saying that things are even worse back home on the Sword Coast can really up the tension, especially with the Death Curse. And the encounters are moderately fun speedbumps that can flesh out the world, but help tie the stakes together.


I'm already seriously considering using at least the Fire and Frost giant apocalypse plots as distinct things that the PCs will be exposed to as existential threats to deal with, rather than using an oracle to send them to just one. Especially since I have the AtG maps for the Glacial Rift and the Fire Giant Palace I can use as more level-appropriate locales.

I would recommend the Fire Giant Palace. The Yakfolk encounter outside adds variety and color to the dungeon, and the inclusion of Hellhounds & such give it variety. Again, the oracle is noted by the module to be literally pointless if the PCs can already find one of the Giant lords, and someone has already told them about the Ordning and the Conch.


The Stone Giants' "end of civilization" thing could tie in somehow with the Atropol and the undeath curse, maybe. I'm not sure. I don't have a tie-in for the hill giants' plot, but I'm inclined to go a bit of body horror/eldrich horror route (no clue if the module does this) and have her plan actually be something she can accomplish. Eating and eating and eating and having it genuinely make her a superior specimine that is getting bigger and bigger and perhaps more...alien intelligent. Though ceasing to feed the beast would make the intellect go away, if not the size.

The Hill Giant section of the module is for tricking a large brute with overwhelming firepower and grumbling subordinates into falling for your wily traps. With all the hyper-intelligent and alien-minded casters in ToA, it might be a nice change of pace.

[Keravath]

(Depending on their behavior, Eku may not re-up her contract, either; they're staying good, so far, but they're pushing it at times. I'm not doing as good a job as I should portraying Eku's displeasure when the barbarian is more chaotic than good. Weirdly, the LN monk hasn't done anything I could have Eku get offended by, despite her "only works with good characters" clause.)

...



I just wanted to comment that the exact text for Eku is "She'll work only with good aligned adventurers." Not just characters who seem to be good or act good but ones with an actual good alignment specifically. It also says nothing about behaving "chaotically" ... as long as it is chaotic good the Couatl shouldn't have any issues. In the game I played, some of the characters had neutral alignments so Eku looked at us, chatted a bit and simply refused to be our guide. The DM decided that since some of us were not good-aligned then Eku wouldn't work with us. In your case, with a neutral monk in the party, Eku could also just decide that it isn't appropriate to work with this party and might go in search of a group of good aligned heroes to deal with the evils she wants to counter.

[Segev]

I just wanted to comment that the exact text for Eku is "She'll work only with good aligned adventurers." Not just characters who seem to be good or act good but ones with an actual good alignment specifically. It also says nothing about behaving "chaotically" ... as long as it is chaotic good the Couatl shouldn't have any issues. In the game I played, some of the characters had neutral alignments so Eku looked at us, chatted a bit and simply refused to be our guide. The DM decided that since some of us were not good-aligned then Eku wouldn't work with us. In your case, with a neutral monk in the party, Eku could also just decide that it isn't appropriate to work with this party and might go in search of a group of good aligned heroes to deal with the evils she wants to counter.

Indeed, this may happen. It's partially my fault: I missed the "only good-aligned adventurers" part initially, and (ironically) the LN monk behaves more or less Good. I could DM-assert that his alignment was actually LG based on behavior if I really wanted to. And even question the "L" part based on at least one strategy he's executed (though a single act does not an alignment change).

His most morally and ethically questionable thing was dealing with the baitiri in Sunless Citadel: he bribed them to let him and the rest of the party take back Calcryx (the white dragon), rather than fighting past them, and then he bribed, flattered, and convinced Calcryx to come with him to a place he swore they'd prepared with great treasure worthy of her. When he had her in a narrow corner and surrounded by the party, he surprise attacked her. She went down before she got an action. (Being 5e, they elected to be dealing non-lethal when they knocked her to 0 hp.)

It was clever and good RP, so I don't feel they "bypassed" the encounter or anything, but the backstab was a little on the Chaotic side, and "bribe the Baitiri rather than kill them" and "willing to work with the evil kobolds who haven't done anything to hurt the party" could be argued to be non-good. It could ALSO be argued to be good, though, based on the "we're in their house, and they're not hurting us; murderhoboing them for the sake of alignment seems wrong" argument.

The CG half-orc, on the other hand, intimidated and terrified poor Meepo when he'd also done nothing to them, which made Eku uncomfortable. I don't think I've done a very good job portraying that, though.

The party just used the key they got as reward for taking Calcryx to the kobolds to open the tomb of the dragonpriest (which I botched in a couple of ways, but the players had fun, so I won't worry too much about it; Jot should've been FAR more of a challenge if I'd remembered to use movement to my advantage, though). Next session, they decide whether to try to enlist the kobolds in an attack on the baitiri, to try to slip past the baitiri on their own (won't likely work, as the hobgoblins in charge are not going to be bribed when they can just beat up and take what they want...and would likely backstab the PCs if they thought the PCs strong enough that bribery was preferable), or come back later to look for the red fruit, taking time now to deliver Udril Silvertusk across the map to Camp Vengeance, and then to return Tiryiki's corpse to his mother for resurrection (which, unbeknownst to them, will fail).

I might have Eku bargain her time healing the Camp Vengeance soldiers in return for Breakbone not screwing the party over, but if I'm honest...the party is probably willing to haul the sick back upriver. They'll be approaching by land, but they'll have canoes they're portaging - which will be "fun" for them when it comes to encounter management in the jungle - so they could theoretically do either of the quests Breakbone forces on people. And "take sick people upriver to Port Nyanzaru" gets them to Port Nyanzaru, where they mean to be going.

Eku, though, also has the capacity to cure diseases, so sending people upriver makes a lot less sense.

If they go into the second level of the Sunless Citadel, Widdow Groat (who is involved, here, with the Zotzilolha Tree, as a personal side project, and who has already been driven out of the half-orc's nightmares by Eku's dream spell and some divine intervention) will keep Eku occupied during the big battle.


By chapter and pillar of gameplay that drives it...

Chapter 1: (Combat): Grind the players up to level 5 as fast as demihumanly possible.
Chapter 2: (Combat + Social): Drive home the threats of the Giants. Giants + Minions attack a nearby town; the giants are the spotlight, but the minions are various, and the start of the section is getting the players invested in these NPCs.
Chapter 3: (Exploration): Around a hundred and fifty locations. Forty six pages. Twenty random encounters. This is what makes or breaks the module for many. Random encounter on the road into two paragraph description? Storm King's Thunder becomes a chore for players. Put a random encounter right outside a location between sessions, and think about how to tail them together? The entire coast comes to life.
Chapter 4: (Literally Completely Pointless): "If you have yet to explore this vast and populated world that the GM is procedurally generating, go do this. You must be this (arrow points to point above ground) invested to proceed."
Chapter 5-9: (Combat/Social/Exploration): This is how the position is fortified. If you go in guns blazing, you're going to have a bad time. You can get information and possibly assistance from slaves, outcasts, dissenters, and so on, even though the giants will often attack intruders on sight. Sneak, social, explore, doesn't matter—you've got a single goal. Get creative. Retreat if you need to, and things become more interesting.
Chapter 10: (Social): Unlock the final mission by learning that not all giants are monsters, and not all the monsters are Giants.
Chapter 11: (Exploration/Social): Find the missing king. No Giant encounters. Buff up enemies with additional spellcasting.
Chapter 12: (Combat) Setpiece encounter of epic proportions.

Your goal is to take one of chapters 5-9 and pick up from there, hitting chapters 10, 11, and 12 afterwards for the grand finale. Chapter 9 has potentially the least combat, chapter 5 has the least Giants in combat and the most variety in enemies and is in the most need of buffing against level 14 PCs.If I buy SKT, I may well use the "myriad locations" chapter much the way I'm using Chapter 3 in ToA (which does much the same thing), though it almost certainly will require some ramping up to have nontrivial solutions for level 12+ characters.

Dropping them into roughly chapters 5-9 is what I was thinking, given what I've read about it. I was inspired, as I think I indicated, by the tie of Artus Cimber and the Ring of Winter and the Frost Giants you can find in Chult looking for them. The Fire Giants' plot just sounds nifty, and the Stone Giants' plot can be linked loosely to the Atropol - having the death curse be something they're helping back because it would bring down civilization is also viable. Though I'd need to introduce them.

Reading a bit on Iymrith, I wonder if I can tie her gargoyle minions to the gargoyles of Omu, as well, in a manner meaningful to the PCs.

(Odd coincidence, since I know the player got this just from looking at names for elves in the PHB, but the wood elf Diviner in the party is named "Imareth." I am seriously considering having a hook for the high-level stuff that suggests that he's actually in some method a clone or other backup plan of Iymrith's, given her body-hopping desires and the like. Maybe having the gargoyles act deferrential to him, up until it becomes clear he isn't Iymrith in mind...yet...or something.)


At level 2, my Druid went through hell and high water to purchase a pair of Triceratops for the group. That makes a lot of things a lot less threatening for a level 2 party. I entirely understand.That sounds like it was a fun "over-challenge ourselves initially to make ourselves overpowered later" strategy. I like it. But yeah, you definitely have an idea what I mean.

Even so, I shouldn't complain: despite my own sub-optimal tactics (I need to work on this; I haven't DMed in a very long time, so my in-the-moment judgment is really rusty when using multiple monsters), I've brought Imareth and the half-orc and the monk, in separate encounters, to within a death save of dying. So they probably feel more pressured than I think they do.

And, most importantly, they seem to be having fun, so I am not going to be bothered if I think they could be more challenged.


It is, 100%, makework, and they're really just 1-2 quick encounters along the way to bigger and better things. However, the key to SKT's success is to build up the impact that the Giants have... and hopefully manage to sneak in a tie between the enemies of chapter 11 and the exploration of the world in chapters 2 and 3.

The problem, of course, is that the Giants aren't really relevant to Chult. ToA, if I recall correctly, has long segments of exploration where you discover new things in the jungle which can be nifty, and add flavor to the world. Tossing in a (looted) Giant mound with the remains of Giants and Adventurers into those random jungle encounters gives the sense that the Giants are an aggressive force. A letter or similar saying that things are even worse back home on the Sword Coast can really up the tension, especially with the Death Curse. And the encounters are moderately fun speedbumps that can flesh out the world, but help tie the stakes together.I like that; tossing in some looted Giant ruins, or hinting that there was an ancient outpost of the old Giant Empire down here when Omu ruled a mighty Chultan Empire, could work.

Would also be a good place to lay hints at or less-than-fully-functional versions of an item or few to make "engage with Giants on their scale" a feasible option.

Random thought: adding a Storm Giant Vampire to the Hidden Shrine of Tamochan could be fun. But probably breaks the CR curve on that one entirely.

If I go with the "letter from home" idea, it'll more likely be rumors back in Port Nyanzaru. Half the party has lived in Port Nyanzaru for years (the elf and half-orc - the elf for about 50, which lets me do some fun things with his recollections of "local news" at the time), while the other half arrived at the start of the game on a boat, serving as Obaya's bodyguards as she escorted the loot she bought from adventurers plundering Undermountain back to her boss (the same Merchant Prince Sylvane houses with, coincidentally). She'd left before Sylvane gathered her own party and teleported, or she probably could have teleported with them.

My timeline on when the Death Curse started is a little fuzzier than it really should be, due to some changes I made. I keep meaning to tighten that back up. I've implied to the monk that the old abbot of his monestary has the same mysterious disease that they're learning others have, but in truth, there's no way it's the Death Curse, because the travel time is too long. Though the abbot, a retired adventurer, likely DOES have the death curse, too, now, on top of whatever else was afflicting him.


I would recommend the Fire Giant Palace. The Yakfolk encounter outside adds variety and color to the dungeon, and the inclusion of Hellhounds & such give it variety. Again, the oracle is noted by the module to be literally pointless if the PCs can already find one of the Giant lords, and someone has already told them about the Ordning and the Conch.For clarity, do you mean the SKT Fire Giant Palace as written, or substituting the AtG Fire Giant Castle in for that, using the Fire Giant NPCs and plot from SKT? I ask because I don't recall yakfolk in the AtG one, but hell hounds (as well as a pyrohydra) are in the AtG version.

I do like the "token of free passage" thing in the Glacial Rift in the Frost Giant section of AtG. I find the notion of a collection of lodges on an iceberg (which is about all I know if the layout of the SKT Frost Giant section right now) less inspiring than a glacier-palace.

My main reason for thinking about using AtG is that it's designed for the right level (by the time they're done with ToA). But it, oddly enough, lacks the FEEL of a high-level, high-stakes campaign, the way that SKT and ToA do, despite SKT actually being meant for lower-level PCs. (Well, also, I own Tales From the Yawning Portal, and haven't (yet) bought SKT.)

The Conch, from my limited understanding, is actually one of the things that feels very artificial to me. It actually is similar to a teleportation chain item in AtG, and both serve the same gate-and-key purpose. Now, I acknowledge that it makes a certain amount of sense for Giant Lords to have a magical means of teleporting to the secret underwater stronghold of their liege-lord. But, for some reason, it feels...less than organic.

On the Ordning, it's not clearly explained where I've been looking, but it sounds like it was essentially the Giant God giving divine right to rule to the Storm Giants, and he's revoked that, so now all the giants are trying to vie for his approval to be annointed the next Supreme Giantkind. Except the Storm Giants, who don't realize it's necessary and are missing their king. Did the Ordning have any supernatural effect, or was it purely political?


The Hill Giant section of the module is for tricking a large brute with overwhelming firepower and grumbling subordinates into falling for your wily traps. With all the hyper-intelligent and alien-minded casters in ToA, it might be a nice change of pace.Good to know; I'll definitely keep that in mind. Though knowing my half-orc, she probably would really like the dumb brute hill giants and might try challenging them to an eating contest or something.

From this, though, it almost sounds like the Hill Giants are ironically the toughest fight if you just engage in combat directly? Or is it just that they're the ones you can use the least social interaction to engage with safely?



My current extremely rough map is: ToA to completion (levels 1-11), SKT/AtG with emphasis on the apocalyptic threats of the Giant Lords (levels 11-14 or 15), and then do something with Acererak again, perhaps attempting to adapt Return to the Tomb of Horrors, for the remaining levels to 20.

[Fable Wright]

I do like the "token of free passage" thing in the Glacial Rift in the Frost Giant section of AtG. I find the notion of a collection of lodges on an iceberg (which is about all I know if the layout of the SKT Frost Giant section right now) less inspiring than a glacier-palace.[/QUOTE ]

It is much better than the frost giant settlement in SKT, IMO. The fire giant forge in SKT (which I meant to recommend) is pretty cool, with environment effects, staggered enemy arrivals to fights, a terrifying CR 23 threat they may need to extract without killing... and shards of an adamantine colossus.

[QUOTE=Segev;24023012]
The Conch, from my limited understanding, is actually one of the things that feels very artificial to me. It actually is similar to a teleportation chain item in AtG, and both serve the same gate-and-key purpose. Now, I acknowledge that it makes a certain amount of sense for Giant Lords to have a magical means of teleporting to the secret underwater stronghold of their liege-lord. But, for some reason, it feels...less than organic.

Would it help to know that it also makes sounds of the ocean when they're being summoned? Could limit teleport capacity to only occur at the sounds of the ocean.



On the Ordning, it's not clearly explained where I've been looking, but it sounds like it was essentially the Giant God giving divine right to rule to the Storm Giants, and he's revoked that, so now all the giants are trying to vie for his approval to be annointed the next Supreme Giantkind. Except the Storm Giants, who don't realize it's necessary and are missing their king. Did the Ordning have any supernatural effect, or was it purely political?

Purely political over who holds the Mandate of Heaven. If you've already got the Mandate, like the Storm Giants, it makes no sense to vie for it. But now that there's essentially a weak recency on the throne, other Giants can press their chosen claims or just act without being censured.



Good to know; I'll definitely keep that in mind. Though knowing my half-orc, she probably would really like the dumb brute hill giants and might try challenging them to an eating contest or something.

They eat people. They have squads of goblins butchering captives to put on a plate. Eating contest is probably out.



From this, though, it almost sounds like the Hill Giants are ironically the toughest fight if you just engage in combat directly? Or is it just that they're the ones you can use the least social interaction to engage with safely?

Most action economy and sheer numbers, least effective alarm system. Frost and Fire giants immediately raise the alarm; Stone Giants wait in their own rooms to ambush you; Hill Giants... you can avoid the alarms with care, but when you're outnumbered and outgunned, you're in trouble.



My current extremely rough map is: ToA to completion (levels 1-11), SKT/AtG with emphasis on the apocalyptic threats of the Giant Lords (levels 11-14 or 15), and then do something with Acererak again, perhaps attempting to adapt Return to the Tomb of Horrors, for the remaining levels to 20.

You can find my current plans for SKT on the Roleplaying General forum. It's a solid plan, and SKT scales well just by increasing numbers of enemies. If you really want to do something nasty with Acerak, though:

Ancient Blue Dracolich.

[Segev]

I do like the "token of free passage" thing in the Glacial Rift in the Frost Giant section of AtG. I find the notion of a collection of lodges on an iceberg (which is about all I know if the layout of the SKT Frost Giant section right now) less inspiring than a glacier-palace.

It is much better than the frost giant settlement in SKT, IMO. The fire giant forge in SKT (which I meant to recommend) is pretty cool, with environment effects, staggered enemy arrivals to fights, a terrifying CR 23 threat they may need to extract without killing... and shards of an adamantine colossus.So your suggestion would be AtG's Glacial Rift for the Frost Giants, and SKT's fire giant forge for the fire giants. It is sounding like I will pick up SKT to look through it. The big things AtG seems to do well are providing a living, breathing set of dungeon sites which the PCs have to negotiate carefully or be overwhelmed even at levels 11+. I do like the idea of adding a drow priestess to the fire giants' section that is working with Slarkeleth (whose name I've already forgotten how to spell).

One review/guide I read had the writer totally replacing the stone giant section of SKT with his own stone giant lich who wanted to bring about the end of life on Toril; having a stone giant lich whose phylactery is kept by Acererak in the Tomb of the Nine Gods (as it notes Acererak keeps a number of his apprentices' phylacteries there) could be interesting.

I should definitely look into the actual war machine the Fire Giant Duke is trying to rebuild. Maybe some key components or replacement parts exist in ruins in Chult somewhere. I think I can integrate that with Forge of Fury from Tales From the Yawning Portal if I play my cards right. THough I may not want to run that one at all; they're right at level for it after Sunless Citadel, and if I run them straight into it, they'll not have reason to explore Chult's own exotic locales. So I might just put some dwarven ruins inspired by it somewhere.


Would it help to know that it also makes sounds of the ocean when they're being summoned? Could limit teleport capacity to only occur at the sounds of the ocean. While interesting, it doesn't make it any less contrived. The issue that is less about it being contrived and more about not skipping lots of content, though, is that having a conch means you don't need to do more than one kind of giant encounter, unless you want to. The world-ending threats do push you to if the DM has emphasized them, though.

I could "force" it by having the conch teleport only one person per conch, forcing them to handle 4 kinds of giant for 4 PCs.

Does SKT give any means of getting to the Maelstrom other than the conches? Does it have a location on the map, or is it off Toril?


Purely political over who holds the Mandate of Heaven. If you've already got the Mandate, like the Storm Giants, it makes no sense to vie for it. But now that there's essentially a weak recency on the throne, other Giants can press their chosen claims or just act without being censured. Thanks; makes sense.


They eat people. They have squads of goblins butchering captives to put on a plate. Eating contest is probably out.Oh. Yeah, no, that would explicitly horrify the half-orc, who had repeated nightmares about being required by Gruumsh to throw her elf boyfriend into a cook pot.


Most action economy and sheer numbers, least effective alarm system. Frost and Fire giants immediately raise the alarm; Stone Giants wait in their own rooms to ambush you; Hill Giants... you can avoid the alarms with care, but when you're outnumbered and outgunned, you're in trouble. Actually sounds like this really was developed with inspiration from AtG, though in AtG, the hill giants also had pretty good alarm-raising.


You can find my current plans for SKT on the Roleplaying General forum. It's a solid plan, and SKT scales well just by increasing numbers of enemies.Yeah, I noticed you're merging it with Red Hand of Doom. I know nothing about RHoD; how do you plan to keep your PCs from out-leveling them both as they pursue XP doled out in each? Are you replacing part of SKT with RHoD, e.g. the first 5 levels' worth? (Is RHoD a 1-5 campaign arc?)


If you really want to do something nasty with Acerak, though:

Ancient Blue Dracolich.I was actually thinking the same thing. It fits with her goals, and would be a valid fallback. Turning to Acererak when he offers her help after her defeat by the heroes who he's probably pretty mad at, too, would make a lot of sense.

Updating and flat out reworking Return to the Tomb of Horrors will be quite a task, too, though its core plot is cool. I have the box set for 2e, and it includes the original black-and-white printing of the original module, but I need to check how that latter fits in. The Return box is designed for high-level adventurers, but is not nearly as unfair as the original module in general, as it's actually meant to play as something other than a tournament module and a "you think you're so powerful?" gotcha.



I especially appreciate the notes on upping the challenge of SKT through increased numbers. It will probably be a lot more work than running a module straight, but I think that will be pretty rewarding. I'll also compare it to AtG on a mechanical level to see if I can judge for myself why one is rated for levels 11-14 and the other is rated for levels 5-11, and use that to calibrate.

The other thing I want to try to do is build in that concept that so many reviews were griping was advertised and then disappointingly made into a one-fight gimmick: "facing the giants with their own power." This is a tough one to balance, because part of the awe of something like SKT or AtG is that everything is so huge. But giving the ability to grow to that scale is really useful, too.

...maybe I can replace the conch effects with--no, the giants wouldn't need to grow to giant size. Having to BE giant-size to blow them would help a little, though. I need to check out giants' scales in 5e; in 3e, Storm Giants were Huge, while the other types were all Large. (Which meant they were the same size as ogres, weirdly, despite there being a description of ogres being smaller than hill giants being smaller than fire and frost giants being smaller than stone giants.) Large just must have a broad spectrum, broader than Medium does. (Thinking about it, Large covers about as much spectrum as Small and Medium do together. Small really isn't any smaller than Medium for most size-based effects; it's probably a semi-artificial division for PC-level granularity more than anything else.)

Ah well, I have time to think about it. Trying to come up with a good way to make growing to giant size a puzzle item/reward in the manner of a Zelda game is its own challenge as a DM. (I know Zelda explored a concept like this in the Minish Cap.)

Heh. Having a way to let the PCs learn the Baitiri battle stack technique to deal with giants could be fun. I already plan to have a bugbear who uses two baitiri masks to make himself look like a battle stack in the lower level of Sunless Citadel.

[Fable Wright]

So your suggestion would be AtG's Glacial Rift for the Frost Giants, and SKT's fire giant forge for the fire giants. It is sounding like I will pick up SKT to look through it. The big things AtG seems to do well are providing a living, breathing set of dungeon sites which the PCs have to negotiate carefully or be overwhelmed even at levels 11+. I do like the idea of adding a drow priestess to the fire giants' section that is working with Slarkeleth (whose name I've already forgotten how to spell).

Hm. On further further review, it may be worth lifting inspiration from SKT but dealing only with Against the Giants. I glossed over Chapter 2 when skimming the book, but Chapter 2 is really important: It's what brings Chapter 3 to life, with reasons to go out in the world, see the sites outlined in the guide, and provide player-driven questing. This is what gives it the unique relaxed tone on epic backdrop feel. Chapters 5-9 sound like they're inspired by the original AtG module, and that the revamp in TfYP drew some of SKT's changes in. Keeping the 10 quick pages of flavor at the beginning, and applying those motivations to the giants in AtG will have much the same effect.


I should definitely look into the actual war machine the Fire Giant Duke is trying to rebuild. Maybe some key components or replacement parts exist in ruins in Chult somewhere. I think I can integrate that with Forge of Fury from Tales From the Yawning Portal if I play my cards right. THough I may not want to run that one at all; they're right at level for it after Sunless Citadel, and if I run them straight into it, they'll not have reason to explore Chult's own exotic locales. So I might just put some dwarven ruins inspired by it somewhere.

It's the Vodindod, an Adamantine colossus that is to a Giant what a Giant is to a human, designed to annihilate dragons.



While interesting, it doesn't make it any less contrived. The issue that is less about it being contrived and more about not skipping lots of content, though, is that having a conch means you don't need to do more than one kind of giant encounter, unless you want to. The world-ending threats do push you to if the DM has emphasized them, though.

So, the thing is that Storm King's Thunder was designed to be heavily replayable. You've got one of three starting locations, which will (depending on your actions) generate 1-8 quest hooks to drive Chapter 3. Then, depending on your explorations, you get a collection of essentially random Giant lords to choose from. Hitting each of the five tribes breaks turns it into a grind, and... well, more importantly, why do you need King Hekaton if you've already dealt with the five rebelling tribes? Even if he's gone, the dissenters to the regency have been put down, and things will soon return to normal... at least, until Iymrith makes another move.


I could "force" it by having the conch teleport only one person per conch, forcing them to handle 4 kinds of giant for 4 PCs.

You could. I'd recommend against it, though, for the reasons above.


Does SKT give any means of getting to the Maelstrom other than the conches? Does it have a location on the map, or is it off Toril?

It can be reached by boat, though that's a dangerous route.


Yeah, I noticed you're merging it with Red Hand of Doom. I know nothing about RHoD; how do you plan to keep your PCs from out-leveling them both as they pursue XP doled out in each? Are you replacing part of SKT with RHoD, e.g. the first 5 levels' worth? (Is RHoD a 1-5 campaign arc?)

RHoD is 5-11, and I'm planning on staggering things a bit. Levels 1-5 are as Storm King's Thunder—the players are beginning to trickle into the Elsir Vale, deal with a Giant attack, get a handful of quest rewards and friendly NPCs to build investment in the whole area, and they finally reach their ultimate destination, Vraath Keep of Red Hand of Doom... and they uncover an enormous threat aiming to flatten the world they just got invested in: a punitive force designed to level the Giants and anything in their way.

Roll initiative.

I've replaced a few elements from RHoD with elements of the Giants staging a defense; the players will be able to take on Chief Guh early or deal with a kettle of malformed Warforged that one of the invaders is bringing to bear. Give them the option of which module to run with before the climax of Red Hand of Doom, and then opening up the Giants' plotlines and what their future holds.


I especially appreciate the notes on upping the challenge of SKT through increased numbers. It will probably be a lot more work than running a module straight, but I think that will be pretty rewarding. I'll also compare it to AtG on a mechanical level to see if I can judge for myself why one is rated for levels 11-14 and the other is rated for levels 5-11, and use that to calibrate.

SKT is primarily exploration for levels 6 and 7, and the encounter bringing you to level 6 is one where the PCs aren't directly focus fired. You then get a fun but small-ish Level 8 dungeon with about 5 Giants in total (except for Guh, who's packing heat), before spending a level in deadly court intrigue among Storm Giants and building up to a grand level 11 climax.


The other thing I want to try to do is build in that concept that so many reviews were griping was advertised and then disappointingly made into a one-fight gimmick: "facing the giants with their own power." This is a tough one to balance, because part of the awe of something like SKT or AtG is that everything is so huge. But giving the ability to grow to that scale is really useful, too.

Legendary Consumable. Party gets 25 strength, double current & max HP, deals triple weapon dice on damage. If you made that more accessible...

...well, doubling or tripling the number of enemies starts to sound more reasonable. Triple to quadruple sounds good for a level 14 party with access to that.

[Segev]

Hm. On further further review, it may be worth lifting inspiration from SKT but dealing only with Against the Giants. I glossed over Chapter 2 when skimming the book, but Chapter 2 is really important: It's what brings Chapter 3 to life, with reasons to go out in the world, see the sites outlined in the guide, and provide player-driven questing. This is what gives it the unique relaxed tone on epic backdrop feel. Chapters 5-9 sound like they're inspired by the original AtG module, and that the revamp in TfYP drew some of SKT's changes in. Keeping the 10 quick pages of flavor at the beginning, and applying those motivations to the giants in AtG will have much the same effect.Hm. On the one hand, I really like that ToA does that with the huge sandboxy exploration. I'd love to have those options open in SKT if I ran it. On the other, it also sounds like Chapters 2 and 3 are the hardest to upscale to appropriate level, and the replayability you mention below doesn't strike me as an independent selling point when I doubt I'll run it more than once, certainly not for the same people.


It's the Vodindod, an Adamantine colossus that is to a Giant what a Giant is to a human, designed to annihilate dragons.Neat!


So, the thing is that Storm King's Thunder was designed to be heavily replayable. You've got one of three starting locations, which will (depending on your actions) generate 1-8 quest hooks to drive Chapter 3. Then, depending on your explorations, you get a collection of essentially random Giant lords to choose from. Hitting each of the five tribes breaks turns it into a grind, and... well, more importantly, why do you need King Hekaton if you've already dealt with the five rebelling tribes? Even if he's gone, the dissenters to the regency have been put down, and things will soon return to normal... at least, until Iymrith makes another move.Well, there's rescuing the king for the sake of rescuing the king. And maybe Iymrith and Slarkleth have plans for him that will require thwarting in their own right. But you do have a point. Especially about the potential slog.



RHoD is 5-11, and I'm planning on staggering things a bit. Levels 1-5 are as Storm King's Thunder—the players are beginning to trickle into the Elsir Vale, deal with a Giant attack, get a handful of quest rewards and friendly NPCs to build investment in the whole area, and they finally reach their ultimate destination, Vraath Keep of Red Hand of Doom... and they uncover an enormous threat aiming to flatten the world they just got invested in: a punitive force designed to level the Giants and anything in their way.So you're shifting whatever the motivation in canon for the eponymous red hand of doom to punishing the giants? Interesting.


SKT is primarily exploration for levels 6 and 7, and the encounter bringing you to level 6 is one where the PCs aren't directly focus fired. You then get a fun but small-ish Level 8 dungeon with about 5 Giants in total (except for Guh, who's packing heat), before spending a level in deadly court intrigue among Storm Giants and building up to a grand level 11 climax.Hm. So the level 6 fight could be deadlier if the PCs aren't protected by one or more powerful NPCs? Alternatively, being more powerful might mean they can prevent the "heroic sacrifice" that's scripted (if I'm guessing right about which fight this is and what I've read in reviews - Iymrith vs. the nice Frost Giant, right)?


Legendary Consumable. Party gets 25 strength, double current & max HP, deals triple weapon dice on damage. If you made that more accessible...

...well, doubling or tripling the number of enemies starts to sound more reasonable. Triple to quadruple sounds good for a level 14 party with access to that.WOw, that's more potent than I was picturing. I was just thinking of making a size-changing item or power that would let the PCs use it for puzzle-solving and the like.

I do see why they'd keep a legendary item like that for a climax alone, but still, I understand the frustration of anybody who was sold on the advertisements listing being giant-sized as a perk when it isn't well integrated. It'd be like playing Ocarina of Time, but you only get to have the Master Sword and be grown-up Link for the last fight with Gannon.

[Fable Wright]

Hm. So the level 6 fight could be deadlier if the PCs aren't protected by one or more powerful NPCs? Alternatively, being more powerful might mean they can prevent the "heroic sacrifice" that's scripted (if I'm guessing right about which fight this is and what I've read in reviews - Iymrith vs. the nice Frost Giant, right)?

Quite the opposite, in fact. You get to control your character and a weak NPC—who might be 2 HD with a +2 primary ability modifier, or 6HD with a +3 modifier and +2 Proficiency—scattered around the town you're defending. These will probably be weaker than the PCs, but they can draw the invaders' attention, and the invaders have their primary objective as something separate from killing the PCs. What their objective is varies by starting town. If the PCs were to head off the invasion forces (level 6 fight) on their own...

6x Level 18 PCs encounter budgets, for reference:
Easy: 12,600 exp
Medium: 25,200 exp
Hard: 37,800 exp
Deadly: 57,000 exp

Goldenfield attack, assuming everyone fights the PCs: Adjusted XP 64,800 (10,800 per player)
Bryn Shander attack, assuming everyone fights the PCS: Adjusted XP 120,500 (20,083 per player)
Triboar attack, assuming everyone fights the PCS: Adjusted XP 43,050 (7,175 per player)

You could proooobably make it a challenge for a group fresh off Against The Giants.


I do see why they'd keep a legendary item like that for a climax alone, but still, I understand the frustration of anybody who was sold on the advertisements listing being giant-sized as a perk when it isn't well integrated. It'd be like playing Ocarina of Time, but you only get to have the Master Sword and be grown-up Link for the last fight with Gannon.

The final fight involves the entire party getting one of those consumables, plus each PC getting a Storm Giant NPC ally, to survive the fight. Take away one or the other, and it suddenly becomes a much bigger challenge than previously expected... at least until Meteor Swarm enters the picture.

[Segev]

Is there an explanation for the potions beyond "you're working with us, the Storm Giants, and we have them, so let's get you on our scale to fight Iymrith?"

[Fable Wright]

Is there an explanation for the potions beyond "you're working with us, the Storm Giants, and we have them, so let's get you on our scale to fight Iymrith?"

Actually, no. There really isn't. I tried to find one, but... nope.

[Segev]

Actually, no. There really isn't. I tried to find one, but... nope.

I mean, it doesn't HAVE to be. Especially for the role it actually plays in the campaign. (Notably, it really does nothing for those who don't use weapons and/or their Str mod in combat.) Now I'm tempted to have a side quest or series thereof wherein the players assemble a suit of armor / golem / mecha that essentially lets one of them (maybe they make several) be "giant sized" when wearing it. I might adapt Vorn to that. Could possibly tie themes of it into the rebuilding of the Vodindod. Maybe the scattered dwarven mines and craft facilities around Chult were old production facilities for the Fire Giant overlords who were driven out by the Omuans "liberating" the dwarves, only for the dwarves to be later driven out by Tinder and other, similar threats.

I'm waffling on what to put in Hisari, now, despite having given the PCs a map specifically to it. I could stick with the Hidden Shrine of Tamochan, or use parts of the Forge of Fury, or to buy the DMs Guild mini-adventure for it. But I know next to nothing about that last. It's interesting that ToA says "someting" keeps the Yuan-ti from coming within 50 miles of Hisari, now, but provides no details on that. I suppose that leaves me lots of leeway to make something up, at least.

[Great Dragon]

Segev
I already have 3 blasted NPCs travelling with the party in ToA, and it's making fight's a doggon cakewalk.

Heh. Just use these to show the Danger of ToA.
Have them be affected by traps and stuff the PCs bypassed. Make the PCs work to keep them alive.

Or if the Party takes on Acerack, they are the first to die (especially NPC Spellcasters), and even if the Soulkilling Machine has been destroyed, their Souls still go to feed Acerack's Phylactery.

I'll drop in more comments and Ramblings as I have Time.