The dangers of alternate casting stats?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Imagine, for a second, that you had an extremely generous DM. One who says "I don't really care about what's written. If it makes more sense for your character concept, you can totally make a Charisma-based Cleric, or an Intelligence-based Monk. If you have casting or class features or whatever that run off a mental stat, you can swap it for any other one." Where does the system break down? What sorts of combos appear if mental stats are interchangeable?

Focusing on mid-levels; say 4-10.

The only really bad one I can think of is Monk 1/Hexblade 1/Bladesinger 2 (continuing in Warlock or Wizard as per taste), running pretty much every aspect of your character off Wisdom and having a stupidly high AC.

[No brains]

I think things would shake apart pretty early as saves and skills don't line up with the primary casting stat.

You can count on a druid to perceive something and resist charms, but a charisma-druid isn't going to be seeing enemies as well and is going to be weirdly susceptible to a dryad's charm.

A charisma wizard, a charism-ard, would be less adept at getting through illusions or having that one brave moment when they face down that intellect devourer before the rest of the party bombards it back to hell.

Also allowing a cleric or wizard to main cast off charisma is going to make them brave about trying to use Planar Ally/ Binding to get demons to do their dirty work. A Divine Soul can already kind of pull this off, but their limited spells known makes them work hard enough to earn it. A bottomless spells know makes being a demon-charmer a little too easy.

[Honest Tiefling]

On a less mechanical side, the differences between the various types of magic are going to get narratively fuzzy. This could be a good or a bad thing, depending on your setting.

One idea might be to allow certain subclasses or options to make the choice between two different scores. If some options just aren't valued by the table, this might encourage them to be played when they otherwise wouldn't be.

[Trickery]

I only see one issue: since Wisdom controls perception and is the most common mental saving throw, it's the obvious pick. The DM can fix that by having more balanced skill usage and widely varied mental saves.

Or, you could dodge this entirely by making perception just a proficiency check rather than being based on wisdom, and then combining all mental saving throws together such that players would just use the highest of their mental stats. But that might negatively affect flavor.

[bid]

The only really bad one I can think of is Monk 1/Hexblade 1/Bladesinger 2 (continuing in Warlock or Wizard as per taste), running pretty much every aspect of your character off Wisdom and having a stupidly high AC.
I don't see the synergy between monk and hexblade. Either you monk/bladesinger with Dex16 / Con14 or you hexblade/abjuration(?) with Dex14 / Con16. Not using medium armor seems a waste of level.

[Lille]

I don't see the synergy between monk and hexblade. Either you monk/bladesinger with Dex16 / Con14 or you hexblade/abjuration(?) with Dex14 / Con16. Not using medium armor seems a waste of level.

I think the point is Hexblade for a casting stat-based weapon attack, combined with both Monk and Bladesinger for up to 2x casting stat to AC.

[Laserlight]

I might be cautious about Sorc + cleric or wizard. Meta magic plus a broad spell list might be a little too powerful.

The only one I've tried, that I recall, was an INT warlock, who would have crossed into Wizard if I had played him long enough.

[Jerrykhor]

I might be cautious about Sorc + cleric or wizard. Meta magic plus a broad spell list might be a little too powerful.

The only one I've tried, that I recall, was an INT warlock, who would have crossed into Wizard if I had played him long enough.

Sorc+Cleric is already possible, its called Divine Soul Sorcerer.

Sorc+Wizard... Meh, they already share like 90% of the spells.

[Fable Wright]

So, the problem is always going to be front-loaded caster class synergy.

Letting anyone fit Hexblade for their stat into the build is just going to suck. My Hexblade Bladesinger now has Int to attack, damage*2, AC, concentration saves, and is mostly a full caster. Same thing for my Charisma Bladesinger dipping Hexblade.

You do open up new options, like Tempest Cleric becoming a two-level dip for Wizards and Sorcerers who like lightning damage. Those proficiencies + that well-scaling Channel Divinity.

That said, Druid isn't going to be dipped, because that strips away most available armors.
Cleric is already dipped a lot as a way to get heavy armor proficiency and useful support spells.

Wizard is only problematic with Bladesinger. A Paladin/Bladesinger could be pretty brutal... but is it really better than access to Quickened Booming Blade? It does have a lot more sustain and utility, though.

In the end, it really boils down to who has the most dippable features. Clerics don't dip Monk, so I'm not afraid of the Hexblade dipping it either. You're tossing 'Bladesinger' into the Charisma Trinity of Warlock/Paladin/Sorcerer, but otherwise, I don't expect too much change.

[Luccan]

Sorc+Cleric is already possible, its called Divine Soul Sorcerer.

Sorc+Wizard... Meh, they already share like 90% of the spells.

It's not one or two spells, it's all of them. Take DS; yeah you have access to a few permanent choices of cleric spells in addition to sorcerer ones. But a Cleric/Sorcerer with stat synergy can do that for every Cleric spell because they get their pick at the beginning of each day. Similar potential problem with a more synergistic Sorcerer/Wizard. Metamagic isn't really designed with such a wide spell range in mind (though honestly, not sure how big a deal it would be. Good rolls for stats could produce a near-identical effect). Still definitely not the same as straight Sorc, DS or not.

[Jerrykhor]

It's not one or two spells, it's all of them. Take DS; yeah you have access to a few permanent choices of cleric spells in addition to sorcerer ones. But a Cleric/Sorcerer with stat synergy can do that for every Cleric spell because they get their pick at the beginning of each day. Similar potential problem with a more synergistic Sorcerer/Wizard. Metamagic isn't really designed with such a wide spell range in mind (though honestly, not sure how big a deal it would be. Good rolls for stats could produce a near-identical effect). Still definitely not the same as straight Sorc, DS or not.

What are you talking about? A DS sorcerer can pick any Cleric spell. They have access to the entire Cleric spell list, they can have all their spells known be Cleric spells if they want.

Its really nothing much. The most unique and powerful Cleric spells such as Bless, Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians cant be affected by Metamagic, other than Empowered if it deals damage. If there are any incredibly powerful combos, you'd be hearing about them already.

[Randomthom]

It's problematic when you throw in multi-classing but more-or-less fine outside of that. There is a slight power-gain to be had using Wisdom because of Perception and Wis saving throws. I'd also suggest that certain classes are hard to justify the narrative, particularly Wizard using anything other than Int (though I always thought the Bladesinger could be an exception to this).

[Kyutaru]

Alternate stats are fine as long as you curb attempts at making everything they do based on a single stat. Bards already rely on Dex for attacks and dodging and saves and skill checks. Making them able to cast spells using Dex as well might be pushing it.

Other than that concern, go ham. Thor might use Strength to call down bolts of lightning. It may not seem that way but the more he works out and gets in shape the stronger the lightning becomes. It could easily be tied to his physical strength instead of his feelings in your world.

[Laserlight]

Note I said "might be cautious". Not "no, that's OP", not "sure, you can play that", more "let's try it but I reserve the right to nerf it if you're outshining the other PCs too hard."

[Spiritchaser]

You can make some nice paladin 6 Cleric X hybrids that work thematically and get 2 CDs per short rest, but are certainly not OP.

You can MC a shadow sorcerer with a gloom stalker into a cool shadow blade build ambusher but it comes online late, and while it can hit like a TRUCK on the first round, others can hit even harder. It isn’t at all broken.

Even a monkadin is arguably not really over the top until level 20, and at that level other things are worse.

My favourite arcane Gish idea, a paladin war wizard would be pretty strong as well, but would it really be better than what else is out there? I think not.

[MrStabby]

Assuming that it changes the stats for multiclass requirements as well...

I could see wizards, particularly bladesinger, being a dip. Shield spell, absorb elements and an AC bladesong boost for a couple of levels. Also adds ritual casting and some good spells. Open hand monk 17, divination wizard 2 might see more play at high levels.

[Grod_The_Giant]

but would it really be better than what else is out there? I think not.
That's kinda my feeling too. There would be new combos, but nothing that blows the power curve more than Hexblade already does.

[CheddarChampion]

All in all if the group goes for fun characters it would be a blast. If you have a mixed group of optimizers and non-optimizers this would polarize them, which causes problems. I think that's the real danger.

By polarize I mean that there would be a bigger difference in power between characters and in how compelling each character is. I don't mean that polarization is guaranteed, just that any gaps could only be made larger.

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Wisdom > Charisma or Intelligence, as people have pointed out. Swapping alone doesn't break anything though.

As for builds:
Wisdom based Paladin would be powerful (assuming aura of protection changes).
Hexblade 1/Moon Druid X - such a lax DM might let your bear form hold a sword in it's jaws. Maybe.

OP's build doesn't seem that much better than Paladin X/Hexblade 1 to me.
Monk/Bladesinger/Hexblade gets 18 AC after 2 ASI's (so level 10 minimum) and +5 AC twice/rest.
Paladin/Hexblade at the same level with defense style, plate armor, and a shield gets 21 AC base, plus aura of protection.

[Wildarm]

Imagine, for a second, that you had an extremely generous DM. One who says "I don't really care about what's written. If it makes more sense for your character concept, you can totally make a Charisma-based Cleric, or an Intelligence-based Monk. If you have casting or class features or whatever that run off a mental stat, you can swap it for any other one." Where does the system break down? What sorts of combos appear if mental stats are interchangeable?

Focusing on mid-levels; say 4-10.

The only really bad one I can think of is Monk 1/Hexblade 1/Bladesinger 2 (continuing in Warlock or Wizard as per taste), running pretty much every aspect of your character off Wisdom and having a stupidly high AC.

It would all work without an issue if you don't allow multiclassing or don't allow multiclassing into a class that uses your switched modifier. That's the safest way to run that.

Combo wise, there isn't that much difference with the exception of Bladesinger as you mentioned. Most CHA/INT casters would likely switch over to Wisdom based though as it's usually a superior stat to have a high bonus in for many things(Assuming you don't want to be party face or a knowledge expert).

Another possible issue is that headband of intellect is an uncommon item. Int based paladins and monks would love to get that item. Monks could focus on Dex/Con and still have a strong bonus to AC and stunning fist DC. Paladin could pump Str/Con and still have a strong spell DC and aura bonus.

[Man_Over_Game]

Holy carp, I have info on this!

I spend a buttload of time researching different multiclassing results when primary/secondary attributes are modified for different classes for a homebrew of mine. Like, a lot.

I could go on and on about all the details and all of the things that were worrisome, but it basically boils down to this:

Each "build" effectively has one "Primary Action" that it does, and stronger builds have lots of passive effects that apply while using that "Primary Action". You have to be careful about allowing classes to stack multiple passive benefits that work with their primary action.

Passive benefits include things like Metamagic, Armor proficiencies, Short Rest regeneration, Divine Smite, that kind of stuff. Mixing a Warlock (Short Rest Recharging) with a Cleric (versatile, has armor proficiencies) could lead to some overpowered builds. However, mixing a Wizard with a Monk won't usually be a problem, because the primary action of a Wizard (Cast a Spell) doesn't work with the Monk's Primary Action (Hitting stuff) in most instances. You could, for example, make an Intelligence-based Cleric, but you want to make sure that people don't use it to dip for armor proficiencies for their primarily Wizard build. Bards don't actually interact with spellcasting much beyond the base rules, having poor armor and a class feature that doesn't usually interact with combat, so it doesn't really matter what stats you let a Bard use (They can multiclass with anything and they'll almost always be worse than a straight bard).

I solved this by having specific requirements in order to maintain the special attribute change. If you break the requirement, you default back to the normal attribute. So if you're a Charisma Wizard, and you're not allowed to have Sorcerer or Warlock levels and you do anyway, then you now have to use Intelligence for your Wizard features. That simple.

And when I say I have a list, I mean a LIST. I have roughly 2 attribute changes per class, each with uniquely catered restrictions and analysis for why the change is justified.

One such example:

Sorcerous Medium
You can take the Sorcerer, using your Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Sorcerer features.
Requirement: You cannot take levels into Cleric or Druid. You must be able to cast Detect Magic.
[Example: A powerful mage, aware of all forms of power around him, can feel nearby magic and bend it gracefully.]
Cleric and Druids have some solid armor and a lot of versatility as prepared casters. Those classes have access to a lot of great Concentration spells, and those Concentration spells are easily abusable with Metamagics. Don't exaggerate that by allowing them to easily multiclass with Sorcerer.

Detect Magic was added as a requirement to lower the overall power creep of mixing the Sorcerer with a Martial class, as the Sorcerer's spell list is really effective with Martials. The requirement cuts down on murderhobo shenanigans. Other than giving Monks and Rangers Shield, there's not anything scary by this choice, as most of those Martial classes are reliant on attacking for many of their features.

More info in the signature, under Prestige Options (a play on Prestige Classes).

[Magic Myrmidon]

Along these lines, I've always wanted to try this system that Easy_Lee put together a long time ago that lets all characters use different attributes for all sorts of features:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?419447-System-Idea-Flexible-Attributes&highlight=Attribute


Alas, most of my group does not care about the minutia of RPG mechanics and the implications of using different attributes the way I do.

[Grod_The_Giant]

And when I say I have a list, I mean a LIST. I have roughly 2 attribute changes per class, each with uniquely catered restrictions and analysis for why the change is justified.
...
Homebrew ninja'd. That's exactly the sort of thing I was looking at putting together for my next book, and here you've already done a great job of it.

[Trickery]

Along these lines, I've always wanted to try this system that Easy_Lee put together a long time ago that lets all characters use different attributes for all sorts of features:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?419447-System-Idea-Flexible-Attributes&highlight=Attribute


Alas, most of my group does not care about the minutia of RPG mechanics and the implications of using different attributes the way I do.

You know, I'm thinking something like this can be done simply on a case by case basis. DMs seem to overall be okay with wise paladins and smart warlocks, but less okay with people trying to make a Monk / Bladesinger / Hexblade who uses wisdom for everything. It's probably something the individual player can ask their DM about, and have the individual DM decide whether it would be too powerful.

But it's probably fine. Even the monk singer lock has to give up a lot of progression to do its little thing, and the thing is not that strong to begin with. I'd rather have a just plain Wizard in the party.

[Man_Over_Game]

...
Homebrew ninja'd. That's exactly the sort of thing I was looking at putting together for my next book, and here you've already done a great job of it.

:biggrin:

Thank you! I still want to add more stuff in for things like Fighters, Rogues and Barbarians, but it's difficult considering the fact that their stats, defense, and primary action get changed with even a slight tweek. If you think of any ideas, let me know!