SBG in Pathfinder?

[Palanan]

Does Pathfinder have any equivalent to the old Stronghold Builder's Guidebook? The SBG seems to be referenced quite a bit, but it came out seventeen years ago, and I'm wondering if Pathfinder has done any updating since then.

I know there are downtime and kingdom-building rules, but from what I gather neither of those subsystems is a) focused on building structures, or b) all that great to begin with. Does Pathfinder have anything else that updates the SBG?

[Psyren]

You mean like the rules for flying castles and whatnot? I don't think it does, no.

[Palanan]

Interesting, thanks.

That's a design space gone unexplored in Pathfinder, then. Seems like it would've been perfect for a Player Companion. If they have an entire book on taverns, why not flying castles?

[stack]

The various subsystems seem to abstract structures more then the SBG. Kingdom building lets you build a castle that provides certain bonuses. Downtime lets you have rooms with teams to perform certain functions. There are probably a few others as well. I believe they are all geared toward providing abstract bonuses and having role-play functionality, rather than 'my wall is X inches think iron with enchantment Y, the throne-room is this large and has a glyph of Z'. Stronghold Builder's Guide has a lot of stuff that works if you plan to detail out precisely how the building is shaped, what it is made from, what is in it, etc., which is good if you are having tactical combat inside the building but is time-consuming and very crunchy, which isn't necessary in every campaign.

Flying castles are cool, though.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Interesting, thanks.

That's a design space gone unexplored in Pathfinder, then. Seems like it would've been perfect for a Player Companion. If they have an entire book on taverns, why not flying castles?

The bolded part, I can answer! At least in Galorion, Paizo's base setting, Flying Castles are totally a thing and they are the stuff of legend. In the modern time, they've all but disappeared and there's at least 2 of their AP's where the BBEG's plan involve finding and reactivating a Flying Castle. So at least in this one specific instance, its an avoidance of giving hard stats or rules guidelines for something they want to keep mythical and out of PC-creatable hands (much like never statting Gods).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by MesiDoomstalker
At least in Galorion, Paizo's base setting, Flying Castles are totally a thing and they are the stuff of legend.

…its an avoidance of giving hard stats or rules guidelines for something they want to keep mythical and out of PC-creatable hands (much like never statting Gods).

I had a feeling this might be part of it, and I can see why flying castles could be viewed as A Bit Much.

That said, it still seems strange they didn’t come out with their own version of the SBG, since it certainly seems to be popular. I don’t think I’m the only one who enjoys working up castle layouts, or elven treehomes or whatever, for both PCs to construct and encounters to run.

Also, in practice the SBG seems to be a rather hoary fallback for questions about structural design, and it would be nice to have something updated beyond 2002.


Originally Posted by stack
Flying castles are cool, though.

Now I want a list of flying castles in media. The first thing that comes to mind is the castle from Mirrormask, which is probably the closest to what a D&D flying castle would really look like. Not too fancy, a little moody sometimes, but it flies.

[Psyren]

Also, in practice the SBG seems to be a rather hoary fallback for questions about structural design, and it would be nice to have something updated beyond 2002.

Well, it's not like 3.5 updated it either. *shrug*

I'd say that, like all 3e areas Paizo themselves didn't get to, demand for this would be fertile ground for a 3PP to step in and make a name for themselves. (Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any in this space.)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
I'd say that, like all 3e areas Paizo themselves didn't get to, demand for this would be fertile ground for a 3PP to step in and make a name for themselves.

Hmm.

What would you say would be involved in making a solid update? And would there be more demand for 1E or 2E?

[Psyren]

Hmm.

What would you say would be involved in making a solid update? And would there be more demand for 1E or 2E?

2e doesn't exist yet so I'd probably go with 1e.

I'm not even close to familiar enough with SBG to answer the first question, we've never used it in my years of 3.x play.

[unseenmage]

The downtime rules and creative application of spells should get you where you're going.

[stack]

You would have to do it in a way that didn't run afoul of the fact that the book isn't part of the open content. I doubt anyone will tackle it at this point with PF2 dropping so soon.

[Jack_Simth]

The downtime rules and creative application of spells should get you where you're going.

Creative application of spells to get a (floating, not flying, sadly) fortress:

Step 1: Cast Subjective Reality, and ignore gravity.
Step 2: Cast Wall of Force... but because you ignore gravity, you make your own "up" - set verticle to horizontal, to make a very durable floating platform.
Step 3: Cast Permanency on the Wall of Force.
Step 4: Use Stone shape to make several flagstones.
Step 5: Place flagstones on the Wall of Force.
Step 6: Cast Wall of Stone, using the flagstones to satisfy the "existing stone" clauses.
Step 7: Repeat step 6 a lot, building your castle's basic shape.
Step 8: Make sure to fully seal off the Wall of Force in Walls of Stone, so that there's no Line-of-Effect to it. Don't want a stray disjuction to ruin your day,
Step 9: Use Stone Shape and Fabricate, and various other materials (such as wood and iron for doors and portcullises) to customize to taste.

[Psyren]

You would have to do it in a way that didn't run afoul of the fact that the book isn't part of the open content. I doubt anyone will tackle it at this point with PF2 dropping so soon.

I mean, if people have gotten away with open versions of Incarnum, ToB and Binding, I feel they can figure this out too if they want to. The key will be getting folks who want to.

[unseenmage]

Creative application of spells to get a (floating, not flying, sadly) fortress:

Step 1: Cast Subjective Reality, and ignore gravity.
Step 2: Cast Wall of Force... but because you ignore gravity, you make your own "up" - set verticle to horizontal, to make a very durable floating platform.
Step 3: Cast Permanency on the Wall of Force.
Step 4: Use Stone shape to make several flagstones.
Step 5: Place flagstones on the Wall of Force.
Step 6: Cast Wall of Stone, using the flagstones to satisfy the "existing stone" clauses.
Step 7: Repeat step 6 a lot, building your castle's basic shape.
Step 8: Make sure to fully seal off the Wall of Force in Walls of Stone, so that there's no Line-of-Effect to it. Don't want a stray disjuction to ruin your day,
Step 9: Use Stone Shape and Fabricate, and various other materials (such as wood and iron for doors and portcullises) to customize to taste.
For a flying fortress.
Animate Objects and select flight.

I like to imagine theg use great big balloons akin to Pixar's movie UP.

[Jack_Simth]

For a flying fortress.
Animate Objects and select flight.

I like to imagine theg use great big balloons akin to Pixar's movie UP.

You'll need a lot of Permanency to get a castle. Per Animate Objects (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/animate-objects/), you need a caster level of 16 to get a Gargantuan object, and 32 to get a Colossal object. Per the Creature Sizes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-templates?/#Creature_Sizes) entry, Gargantuan grants a "Space" of 20 feet and a "typical height/length" of 32 to 64 feet. Being generous, that's a six story keep at 400 square feet/floor: A small tower. If you use the https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/building-and-modifying-constructs/]Building and Modifying Constructs (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/building-and-modifying-constructs/) entry for an Animated Object, you can get a Colossal Animated Object for 30k, but that only gets you a thing needing a 30 foot square for a space - 900 square feet per floor. You can go taller, but... you're still just looking at a big keep, it's still not a castle. Well, unless you have multiples (getting between them might get interesting) and/or have a bunch of littler ones that carry the actual building (in which case, it would look like the house on Up).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
The key will be getting folks who want to.

How so? Do you mean finding a 3PP willing to devote time and resources to the project?


Originally Posted by Jack_Simth
…and/or have a bunch of littler ones that carry the actual building (in which case, it would look like the house on Up).

Now that is a weird image. Reminds me of the poison-fang dragons carrying Grimmel around in HTTYD 3.

.

[Psyren]

How so? Do you mean finding a 3PP willing to devote time and resources to the project?

Well yeah. Or if that's too formal, a free conversion guide for the existing SBG to PF. As mentioned, I don't have the needed familiarity with (or, frankly, interest in) SBG to do that myself, but others might.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
As mentioned, I don't have the needed familiarity with (or, frankly, interest in) SBG to do that myself, but others might.

Yeah, I’m not sure how to go about the conversion either.

I'd be especially leery because it's 3.0, and a lot has changed since 2002.


Originally Posted by Jack_Simth
…and/or have a bunch of littler ones that carry the actual building (in which case, it would look like the house on Up).

Is there a way to calculate how large of a main building, by weight, the smaller ones could carry aloft?

Now I'm thinking of a flying platform, held up by a ring of smaller platforms, which would serve as an airborne forward command post on the battlefield.

.

[unseenmage]

Yeah, I’m not sure how to go about the conversion either.

I'd be especially leery because it's 3.0, and a lot has changed since 2002.



Is there a way to calculate how large of a main building, by weight, the smaller ones could carry aloft?

Now I'm thinking of a flying platform, held up by a ring of smaller platforms, which would serve as an airborne forward command post on the battlefield.

.
Doubtful there's much to convert.
Unless you're looking to incorporate SBG into the existing Downtime Rules. Then you might need to do some arithmetic.


Carrying capacity of flying animated objects would be the limiting factor

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, I’m not sure how to go about the conversion either.

I'd be especially leery because it's 3.0, and a lot has changed since 2002.

It's straightforward, just time-consuming. However: You only need to convert the pieces that you actually use, which helps.


Is there a way to calculate how large of a main building, by weight, the smaller ones could carry aloft?

What was up with the white dot? Regardless...

Yes and no. There's Carrying Capacity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/carrying-capacity/) that covers weight, strength, and size. If you dig, you can find a chain of quotes that tells you how much you can carry and still fly (sort of; Have a Paizo thread about it (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ktzf?Flying-and-encumbrance) - a flying mount, by RAW, can't fly with a medium or heavier load - because it's treated as wearing medium armor, and a flying mount can't fly in medium armor - sensibly you can apply that to any flying critter, but technically it only applies to mounts). And you can find strength and sizes for Animated Objects (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/animated-object/).

What you'll have trouble finding is how to handle a distributed load (or at least, I haven't found any).

Also: You'll need to keep it moving doing that. Animated Objects are Mindless - so they have no skills or feats - and the only maneuverability rating available to them is "Clumsy" (-8 Fly check penalty). Your Small animated object has a Dex of 12, so is rolling Fly checks at -7. A Tiny animated object has a Dex of 14, and so is rolling Fly at -6. Dex goes down as size goes up, so those are the two best fliers in the Animated Object list. Meanwhile: "Hover" is DC 15. They won't make that check. The castle must constantly be moving while in the air.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jack_Simth
Meanwhile: "Hover" is DC 15. They won't make that check. The castle must constantly be moving while in the air.

That’s just odd. I haven’t looked through the Paizo thread you linked, but this sounds like a glitch in the rules.

Maybe it just needs a “hover” property added?

[Jack_Simth]

That’s just odd. I haven’t looked through the Paizo thread you linked, but this sounds like a glitch in the rules.

Maybe it just needs a “hover” property added?

The thread is just a discussion of carrying capacity limits while flying. How is an animated object being unable to hover a problem?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jack_Simth
How is an animated object being unable to hover a problem?

Well, you were the one that pointed out a flying castle couldn't make its hover check, and needed to be constantly moving. Seemed like an oversight in the rules.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, you were the one that pointed out a flying castle couldn't make its hover check, and needed to be constantly moving. Seemed like an oversight in the rules.

A flying castle done via Animated Object Rules can't hover. The Animated Object rules were never intended for making flying castles.

It there's an oversight, it's that the game doesn't have mechanics for flying castles, not that the workarounds we find have problems.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jack_Simth
It there's an oversight, it's that the game doesn't have mechanics for flying castles, not that the workarounds we find have problems.

Well, this is illuminating. I’ve never gone through the Stronghold Builder’s Guide, so I don’t know precisely what it does and doesn’t allow for.

I just know that every time someone asks about flying castles, or space capsules, or B-24 bombers, a great chorus rises from the Playground: “Stronghold Builder’s Guide! Animated Flying Object!” That seems to be the default answer to questions along those lines, so it never occurred to me that these are workarounds being presented.

[Lord of Shadows]

As far as flying castles (and towers, etc) there is always Wish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wish/) and/or Miracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/miracle/)...

Kind of short-cuts the crunchy bits, and possibly dangerous as it likely falls into the "greater effects" [Wish] or "very powerful request" [Miracle] category, but functional.

Flying castles, and other large flying structures, are perhaps best left as PFRPG has them, the stuff of legend.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Lord of Shadows
Flying castles, and other large flying structures, are perhaps best left as PFRPG has them, the stuff of legend.

True for the most part, but I can think of applications for the concept that straddle the divide between aircraft and flying castles. It would be nice to know how far the crunch can support those concepts.

Also, I’m wondering how the pricing might be altered when trying to port SBG rules into Pathfinder. That’s something I know zero about, since none of the campaigns I’ve run have gotten into the cost of construction for large structures.

[unseenmage]

Seriously. PF has Downtime rules for Stronghold building already. They're quite robust.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, this is illuminating. I’ve never gone through the Stronghold Builder’s Guide, so I don’t know precisely what it does and doesn’t allow for.

We seem to have lost context somewhere in the mix.

Using Animated Objects to make a castle fly in Pathfinder has some bugs (among other things, the "can't hover" bit).
Subjective Reality + Wall of Force to make a castle fly in Pathfinder has some bugs (can't move).

The Stronghold Builder's Guide itself has neither problem, because it makes up it's own rules for the specific purpose. However, that's 3.0 content, not Pathfinder content.

So anyone wanting a flying fortress in Pathfinder needs to do one or more of:
1) Find and master the Cloud Castle of the Storm King (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/artifacts/major-artifacts/cloud-castle-of-the-storm-king/)
2) Homebrew some rules for it.
3) Accept that the flying castle will have some bugs.
4) Import content from other editions.
5) Become a 3rd party publisher and make some rules for it.


I just know that every time someone asks about flying castles, or space capsules, or B-24 bombers, a great chorus rises from the Playground: “Stronghold Builder’s Guide! Animated Flying Object!” That seems to be the default answer to questions along those lines, so it never occurred to me that these are workarounds being presented.Stronghold Builder's Guide has direct rules for flying fortresses - you design your castle, count your stronghold spaces, enchant them all with the same movement and fly speed, calculate up your costs, and then realize it's probably more than you can easily afford, so you start looking for the various discounts (there are plenty). You can also get Teleporting, Plane Shifting, airtight, swimming, burrowing, and many other things, so it makes a good choice for a spaceship / undergound exploratory vessel / inter-planar exploratory vessel / whatever.

But it's D&D 3.0 content. It's not accepted at all tables.

Animated Objects show up in 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder, no problem... but they've got limitations (size, control, et cetera).

Which is also why you generally get both suggestions. The limitations may or may not be a problem for the specific goal. When they are, the go-to is the SBG... but that's much more expensive, and is a little harder to get accepted into a game.

[unseenmage]

We seem to have lost context somewhere in the mix.

Using Animated Objects to make a castle fly in Pathfinder has some bugs (among other things, the "can't hover" bit).
Subjective Reality + Wall of Force to make a castle fly in Pathfinder has some bugs (can't move).

The Stronghold Builder's Guide itself has neither problem, because it makes up it's own rules for the specific purpose. However, that's 3.0 content, not Pathfinder content.

So anyone wanting a flying fortress in Pathfinder needs to do one or more of:
1) Find and master the Cloud Castle of the Storm King (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/artifacts/major-artifacts/cloud-castle-of-the-storm-king/)
2) Homebrew some rules for it.
3) Accept that the flying castle will have some bugs.
4) Import content from other editions.
5) Become a 3rd party publisher and make some rules for it.
Behemoth Golem with a fly speed will get you some flying rooms too in a pinch.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by unseenmage
PF has Downtime rules for Stronghold building already. They're quite robust.

Are these in Ultimate Campaign?

I don’t have the book, but from what I can tell on the PFSRD, the rules seemed to be based on “rooms,” which I have a hard time fitting my head around. Do you essentially build a structure room by room?

[unseenmage]

Are these in Ultimate Campaign?

I don’t have the book, but from what I can tell on the PFSRD, the rules seemed to be based on “rooms,” which I have a hard time fitting my head around. Do you essentially build a structure room by room?

Yeah, pretty much.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
I'd say that, like all 3e areas Paizo themselves didn't get to, demand for this would be fertile ground for a 3PP to step in and make a name for themselves. (Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any in this space.)

As it happens, I’ve just come across Ultimate Strongholds (https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Strongholds-Kingdoms-6/dp/1726274209/), which is from Legendary Games. It only came out last November, and it doesn’t seem to be very well-known.

From what’s available on the Amazon preview, it’s apparently an expansion of the downtime rules, and follows the rooms-and-buildings approach. I’m having a hard time making sense of how that subsystem works, and this new book is a little too pricey for its page count. But at least there’s a 3PP that’s addressed this.