Correcting my player's no-constitution build

[Falcon X]

I started DMing a game with 3 new players. I intended it to be a short campaign, and I wanted them to feel like creating their characters how they felt like. So, I didn't correct the Bard who gave herself a 10 in constitution.

It became a problem when she hit level 3 and decided that Sword College fit her character (She took Zorro as inspiration), and we decided to make it a longer campaign.
The players were also getting more into the rules and seeing the problem. While she hasn't complained, I have heard them trying to self-medicate the problem (Their best idea is to through an ASI into CHA instead of CON, so she would get more uses of Defensive Flourish.)

As a DM, how might I best help my player not die so quickly as a melee fighter with 10 CON?
I have considered:
- Having them find a magic item that boosts CON or HP.
- Give her a ring that lets her use the shield spell.
- Giving them all a boost in some way from an angel or djinn or something so she doesn't feel singled out.
- Seeing if she would take a 1 level multiclass in... something.
- Homebrew a feat for her that lets her use her charisma to boost her protectiveness.

Any ideas?

[Torpin]

well often when im dming for new players after 5 or so sessions i let them change some skills, feats, abilities or what have you, since sometimes its hard to grasp what is important vs what sounds important. talk to your player, ask if she wants to flip some stat points around. as the dm you are allowed to offer this

[Rynjin]

Let them retrain their stats.

[suplee215]

I think you are looking at an in game reasoning for it when the actual answer requires out of game. Now that the three newer player has a better grasp of their characters and the game under their belt you should allow them to reassign their stats if they wish to. Just a one time thing and allow the entire party to do it so it doesn't feel like someone is being personally hand held because they made a mistake. At level 3 you have yet to hit an ASI and so there is no need to remember too much and even if you are at level four or higher remembering what it is in is not a big issue. While magic items could certainly be used to help a players in situations they usually won't be, to use it for an issue like this will also encourage a type of thinking of "I can dump a stat and the DM will help me out later"

[Kyutaru]

Their best idea might be to not engage the enemy directly but stick to flanking and supporting the fighter. Squishy melee character exist in many tactics games and RPGs. They are simply not meant to be the ones getting hit. Assist the tank.

[Aprender]

Pencils have erasers for a reason.

Allow all of your players the opportunity to make changes to their character up to a set level (I like around level 5). This allows new players a chance to learn and allows veteran players a chance to take risks and experiment.

[MoiMagnus]

Their best idea might be to not engage the enemy directly but stick to flanking and supporting the fighter. Squishy melee character exist in many tactics games and RPGs. They are simply not meant to be the ones getting hit. Assist the tank.

Though the point here was "help for enabling her Bard to be played like Zorro", not "finding a way to explain her that her Bard should not be played as fearlessly as Zorro".

When the capacities of the characters do not match the expected play-style of the player, that's better when you can change the character rather than having to change the expectations of the player.

[Zetakya]

Emphasise Vicious Mockery and False Life; one on one a Swords Bard is the equal of most combatants, and part of the point of a fast moving duelist type character is to pick your fights as one-on-one engagements.

Encourage your player to look at in-game ways to mitigate their slightly lower durability; movement, dodging and feats like Mobility and Defensive Duelist all have a part to play.

Not every character has to have 14 CON.

[Davo]

Just borrow the AL rule of allowing a complete rebuild (you could require point buy or same stats) until the first session as a level five character.

[SpikeFightwicky]

(Just want to note that I find it hilarious that your post says "I wanted them to feel like creating their characters how they felt like" and then it goes on to explain how the player was wrong and you need to fix the situation by buffing her CON)

Has this become a problem "in game"? Like... is the bard dropping to 0 HP every encounter and is getting disenchanted with her character? If she's never been severely wounded in the game, she won't see any reason at this point to buff her CON. Perhaps the player doesn't picture her character as being very stout of body with a 14 CON so she doesn't want to go down that route?

I agree with @Zetakya, I say work on in game solutions to mitigate the issue (if it's an issue... you didn't mention if the bard's player was having doubts about her viability, or if the table came to a consensus with or without the bard's input), rather than the only possible lesson being "you didn't put 14 in CON, so your character was created poorly". Or... something like a magic item that would give disadvantage on enemy opportunity attacks (or something like that) would be both thematic, and allow the character to get in and out of danger easier.

[Maelynn]

Tempting as it is to fix undesirable stats with (magic) items, it feels as though you're just trying to MacGyver your way out of it.

Also, a 10 CON isn't bad in itself. Like mentioned already, not everyone needs to have a high CON just to survive. How about raising her AC? She could wear a shield while duelling and still have the benefit, she could wear better armour, etc. I'm assuming her DEX is decent, given that she's melee? That also helps. Especially since Zorro wouldn't necessarily have a high CON either, he just had an amazing DEX to avoid being hit and had some nice parry moves to deflect blows.

My suggestion: let her take a dip in Fighter. This will net her the following:

- a d10 instead of a d8 (you could even allow her to 'roll' max hp)
- medium armour so she can wear a chain shirt (underneath her fancy black blouse, ofc)
- Second Wind (not much, but still nice)
- another Fighting Style (she should pick Protection for the extra AC, assuming she picked Duelling from College of Swords)

She could even go for 3 levels of Fighter and pick Battle Master for some nice deflective moves, although I've no idea how fast you let your party level and how soon this could become a solve for the issue.

[TheUser]

Is there really such a big issue with letting a player eat their mistake and letting them suffer from their decisions?

If it's a rmortality problem the player can make a new character before the old one is forced into an early grave...

[Galithar]

Didn't read the full thread so I'm sorry if I'm just repeating someone. You could try adopting ALs character rebuild before level 5. Open it up to any player that wants to do so to prevent them feeling like you're calling them out if that's a concern.

Also, some people might enjoy working around a suboptimal character creation 'mistake'. If they're already working on compensating for it, and they're having fun with it, then let them self correct. Maybe keep this in mind when dropping magic items though. Don't telegraph that the item is for her, but let the party get an item that boosts defensive capabilites and then let them come to the conclusion that it's most powerful in this players hands because it gives her more staying power to do what she needs to in combat.

[Zhorn]

Don't intervene or give the character any special treatment.
This isn't about being harsh, just letting the player retain their sense of agency over their initial decision. If you swoop in a 'correct' their choices, then you've never really let them build the character the way they wanted.
Experience is also the best teacher. Best to not teach them the wrong lessons that the DM will always be on their side to bail them out.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Don't intervene or give the character any special treatment.
This isn't about being harsh, just letting the player retain their sense of agency over their initial decision. If you swoop in a 'correct' their choices, then you've never really let them build the character the way they wanted.
Experience is also the best teacher. Best to not teach them the wrong lessons that the DM will always be on their side to bail them out.

Much wisdom in this. I'm not sure how many other people feel similarly, but in the rare occasions when I play instead of DM, if I feel pressured into making a choice to "optimize" my character, or it's obvious that the DM is either going easy on me or cherry picking stuff to patch over my flaws, I start to lose my own investment in the character. It starts to feel more like I'm playing what everyone else wants me to play, not the character I want to play (like... it's no longer my own), and as such, I lose my immersion.

[Sigreid]

Inspiring leader could mitigate the lower hp pretty well.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

(Just want to note that I find it hilarious that your post says "I wanted them to feel like creating their characters how they felt like" and then it goes on to explain how the player was wrong and you need to fix the situation by buffing her CON)

Has this become a problem "in game"? Like... is the bard dropping to 0 HP every encounter and is getting disenchanted with her character? If she's never been severely wounded in the game, she won't see any reason at this point to buff her CON. Perhaps the player doesn't picture her character as being very stout of body with a 14 CON so she doesn't want to go down that route?

I agree with @Zetakya, I say work on in game solutions to mitigate the issue (if it's an issue... you didn't mention if the bard's player was having doubts about her viability, or if the table came to a consensus with or without the bard's input), rather than the only possible lesson being "you didn't put 14 in CON, so your character was created poorly". Or... something like a magic item that would give disadvantage on enemy opportunity attacks (or something like that) would be both thematic, and allow the character to get in and out of danger easier.

This. Players generally don't like to be told how to build their characters, and they definitely don't like DMs overriding them because you think they did it "wrong".

If a problem actually develops in game, like Spike said, or if the player actually asks, then maybe do something (I'd suggest allowing an AL-style respec). But don't force it down the throat of a player who doesn't want or need it.

If you really feel a need to quote-unquote correct a suboptimal character, put in a "lesser amulet of health" that sets con to 15 or somesuch - it's the best way you have of doing it without it feeling like you're telling the player they weren't having fun right. But you probably don't need to.

(It's not as if 10 con is so dire, anyway. Sure, it's far from optimal, but it's not crippling. An optimised bard would probably only have 14 at most. If it were something like an 8 int wizard, then I could see that being more of a problem, but it really isn't.)

[napoleon_in_rag]

Don't intervene or give the character any special treatment.
This isn't about being harsh, just letting the player retain their sense of agency over their initial decision. If you swoop in a 'correct' their choices, then you've never really let them build the character the way they wanted.
Experience is also the best teacher. Best to not teach them the wrong lessons that the DM will always be on their side to bail them out.

I totally agree with this. As a DM, you need to let players make bad decisions. I feel like railroading sometimes starts with the DM correcting bad decisions.

Now if this initial decision has made the character unplayable, it may be worthwhile to allow one time attribute swap to every player. But I wouldn't do anything like that until it was obvious.

What rolling method was used? And what are all the stats?

[Willie the Duck]

As a DM, how might I best help my player not die so quickly as a melee fighter with 10 CON?

If the goal is specifically to not have them die all that often, the place I would weight the scale (if anywhere) is death saves and/or opponents skewering downed opponents. Let the character get beat up, let them get knocked out a lot. Just make sure they can get back up and learn from those situations (with consequences. There should be a lot of being-taken-captive and missed-that-opportunity situations). That way the player will learn either how not to get hit in the first place, or (if playing a front-liner/swing-into-action type character is important to them) ask if they can find an avenue to get more hp (which is when rebuilding the character or questing for a specific magic item might be in the works).

Obviously the primary goal is to have fun, but on some level you want new gamers to learn (from mistakes, mostly) how to play the game to best achieve their goals. Playing a low-con character as a front liner is a goals/strategy mismatch/mistake that they should learn from.

[TyGuy]

Let them retrain their stats.
This. It bugs me when I focus on something through choices all to have someone "get brought up to speed" in that area because they were weak there. Makes my decisions feel like a total waste and suboptimal since I could have left what I focused on weak in favor of something else if that weakness was just going to get buffed arbitrarily anyways.

[adolann]

As someone who has played a bard with a 10 Con, it is completely doable. You need to actually think about how you are fighting, since you can't really stand toe-to-toe. Mobile becomes gold for you with the ability to disengage for free. If you stay pure bard, you might also look at picking up Martial Adept and picking one of the defensive maneuvers. Tough will give you the hit points of a 14 Con. Maxing out Charisma to have lots of Inspiration dice for your flourishes. If UA is used, the Blade Mastery (I think that was the name) feat gives a reaction +1 AC. Defensive Duelist is also good.

[Aprender]

While I agree that veteran players often learn to enjoy "sub-optimal" builds, the OP specifically asked a question about how to help a brand new player. New players often make choices for their character not knowing the downstream impact.

A lot of good points were made above about the DM not wallpapering over the player's low con with items or altered encounters, not assuming the player's feelings regarding the char, and not denying the player agency or the chance to learn. Even so, I think giving the players at the table a chance to make changes up to a point makes sense.

Many players don't have the time to play often, so a campaign that might last a few months at a weekly table can go on for years at a monthly table. Locking in a character in its infancy, especially at the hands of a new player, can allow a feeling of buyer's remorse. This can get worse as a campaign goes on and other more balanced characters start to overshine or a players feels locked out of a party role that they wanted to experience.

As with all things, talk to your players. Learn about what they want to do and find a way (if possible) to make the game enjoyable for all.

[MoiMagnus]

Is there really such a big issue with letting a player eat their mistake and letting them suffer from their decisions?

If it's a rmortality problem the player can make a new character before the old one is forced into an early grave...

That's essentially the same as allowing players to change their build or stats.

Some players don't like changing of characters and would prefer rethinking and retconning their character.
Others don't like altering the past of their characters (possibly causing inconsistency) and would prefer creating a new character from scratch.

[Falcon X]

Great advice everyone. Thank you :)

Here now seems to be more order of actions (doing the latter only if the following is ineffectual)
1. Pay attention. The players are already talking about how quickly she is hitting 0. I need to listen to see if they think of it as a challenge, or a dire flaw.
2. If she does sound like she isn’t having fun, talk to her about it. [edit] And possibly bring up retraining.
3. At level 4, subtly advise “Hey, you don’t have to, but have you ever considered the Tough, Mobility, or Martial Adept feats, or multiclassing into Fighter or Swashbuckler?”
4. At some point, have them run into a genie that grants ALL of them a +2 to a chosen stat. This way, it doesn’t sound like I’m giving her a leg up directly.
5. Give a defensive magical item, like a lesser Defender blade.

[Steel Mirror]

I think you should take a 'wait and see' approach. From your OP, it sounds like the issue hasn't been critical in game, yet, meaning it hasn't ruined her or the party's fun. That's the thing to keep your eye on. If she continues to be squishy, but the players overall treat it as a tactical consideration to work around and plan for, that's fine. Every character has strengths and weaknesses, that's part of the game. If it starts to lead to frustration or the inability for her to feel like she's contributing, that's when you should consider throwing her a bone.

Also, remind her of the dodge action, for those situations when she's among enemies and at low hp, and just needs to last long enough for the rest of the party to come to her aid. Sometimes players forget how good it is!

If you do end up deciding that she might need a boost to her durability, take her aside real quick to ask her about it. Make sure it's what she wants, and that you aren't reading too much into the issue. Some players really enjoy playing around a suboptimal quirk, and sometimes we just love a character because of some flaw they have.

One possibility for providing an IC justification for a character sheet revision is the "training montage". Give her a mentor, or trainer who decides to help her character beef up and get more physical. Narrate some Rocky or Kung-fu movie style series of exercises she has to do in her downtime between sessions, then let her swap a few points from another stat into Con.

You could also give her a defensive magical item, like a +1 armor. If she's really into the Zorro/swashbuckler archetype, maybe a rapier that grants Defensive Duelist as a bonus feat as long as she wields it?

EDIT: lol, sniped by the OP. Sounds like you have a handle on it! Happy gaming, I think that no matter what happens, this is likely to be a character and campaign that she remembers fondly. :D

[Zetakya]

One thing you could also do is see how the character fights; if they are toe-to-toe slugging, have them run into a friendly duelist in town, and run some 'sparring' sessions that allow you to demonstrate mobile tactics.

This also gives the player the perfect justification for taking one of the feats when the time comes.

[Guy Lombard-O]

While I agree that veteran players often learn to enjoy "sub-optimal" builds, the OP specifically asked a question about how to help a brand new player. New players often make choices for their character not knowing the downstream impact.

A lot of good points were made above about the DM not wallpapering over the player's low con with items or altered encounters, not assuming the player's feelings regarding the char, and not denying the player agency or the chance to learn. Even so, I think giving the players at the table a chance to make changes up to a point makes sense.

Many players don't have the time to play often, so a campaign that might last a few months at a weekly table can go on for years at a monthly table. Locking in a character in its infancy, especially at the hands of a new player, can allow a feeling of buyer's remorse. This can get worse as a campaign goes on and other more balanced characters start to overshine or a players feels locked out of a party role that they wanted to experience.

Well said.

I'd also point out that this character is not only trying to be Zorro, but is a full caster. This brand new player is going to really learn the value of a higher Con as the campaign progresses and she continually finds that the real strength of a bard (even a Swords bard) comes from their concentration spells. And I'm guessing that lesson is going to get pretty darn painful, as she comes to realize that her Zorro is not only a pretty sub-optimal melee combatant, but that she's constantly wasting spell slots on immediately-dropped spells.

I'd allow the group rebuild opportunity. The player's already been made aware that it's an issue, apparently. But if she chooses to stick with her current stat distribution, then I guess you need to honor her decision and let her see why others think about optimizing.

[Falcon X]

Indeed, they all do seem to be having lots of fun so far :)

I only began thinking along these lines because I saw her go down a few times, then heard them trying to problem solve. They weren't complaints and did not sound dire. I merely wanted to be prepared in case it became an issue. I would always prefer to think of a subtle way to help my players rather than to overtly look like I'm managing them.

I should definitely make strides to show her the power of mobility. I might have her run into enemies who use mobility tactics.

[Segev]

Great advice everyone. Thank you :)

Here now seems to be more order of actions (doing the latter only if the following is ineffectual)
1. Pay attention. The players are already talking about how quickly she is hitting 0. I need to listen to see if they think of it as a challenge, or a dire flaw.
2. If she does sound like she isn’t having fun, talk to her about it.
3. At level 4, subtly advise “Hey, you don’t have to, but have you ever considered the Tough, Mobility, or Martial Adept feats, or multiclassing into Fighter or Swashbuckler?”
4. At some point, have them run into a genie that grants ALL of them a +2 to a chosen stat. This way, it doesn’t sound like I’m giving her a leg up directly.
5. Give a defensive magical item, like a lesser Defender blade.

This is a good list of approaches to take in order. Number 1 is especially important. Do remember that dropping, under base rules, to 0 hp isn't so bad as long as somebody is around to spend a round stabilizing you. Do you have a cleric or other healer? A simple healing word would be all that was needed.

You could also give the party a hireling or two - noncombatants who cower from actually fighting, but who can rush in to spend a round stabilizing somebody who's downed. Especially works with a charismatic bard; maybe she has an admirer who tries to impress her but is too shy to admit that's why he's following the party. (Or she, depending on relevant sexes of characters and their orientations.)

If the Bard is a pretty boy or girl who could believably be a Damsel in Distress, have orders from tougher enemies be to "take her alive" and such. Hostage-taking for ransom and the like. This means 0 hp isn't near-death, just unconsciousness.

Having them face a themed encounter with a bad guy who has an item that sets each of his stats at 19 as the loot drop for beating him would semi-organically drop the 19-con item on the party, and not make anybody else feel cheated that somebody's gotten a weakness shored up, since all of them get at least one such item, now. This would also help with (1), because if they seem unimpressed with the 19 con item or don't want to give it to the Bard because she "doesn't need it" or something, that tells you the players don't perceive this as a problem at all. Do make sure the items require atunement. --which means one guy couldn't wear them all. So maybe put the 3 physical ones on a scrawny little half-elf, and the 3 mental ones on a huge, burly half-orc, who are half-siblings and run an orc and human bandit crew with elf and goblin slaves for menial tasks. The half-orc is actually the brains of the operation, but the half-elf doesn't mind because he's smart enough to at least keep up (and is thrilled his half-brother is not a dunce anymore), and the half-elf is the muscle (which the half-orc doesn't mind, because he's happy his half-brother isn't a wimp he needs to protect anymore).

[Vorpalchicken]

I had a pair of players make characters with 10 constitution each.

The PCs, they didn't care for my dungeon at first. One of them actually acquired a fire bolt cantrip and tried to burn it down. But I.. corrected them sir. And when another PC tried to prevent me from doing my duty. I corrected her too.

[Demonslayer666]

Give them advice on how to play more cautiously and avoid getting hit. Bards aren't supposed to take a lot of damage, even ones with high CON.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Amulet of Health if you have a magic market type of game.

Maybe multiclassing to shadow monk for extra mobility and the popping in and out of view like I remember Zorro did.

Rogue 2 can be nice for attacking and getting out of range before the enemy attack.


The big problem of low con is stuff that bypass AC(like save for half) and concentration.

A clock of displacement can also help.

[Willie the Duck]

A clock of displacement can also help.

I know what you meant to type, but now I totally want one of these!

[Steel Mirror]

I know what you meant to type, but now I totally want one of these!
I need to stat one of these up, it does sound amazing.

[Man_Over_Game]

I know what you meant to type, but now I totally want one of these!


I need to stat one of these up, it does sound amazing.



Make it something akin to Word of Recall, returning you to the point where you initially started winding the clock. The clock starts ticking down after you start winding it, and recalls you when it hits 0. You can wind the clock up or down by up to 10 minutes, once per round, by spending your Action. Once it recalls, it cannot be wound again until 24 hours have passed.


Alternate use:

You may wind the clock, which marks the location and status of your being. 24 hours after being wound, you will return to life (if applicable), having full HP, positioned adjacent to the clock, and the clock will no longer work for you after using this effect. If the clock is moved more than 10 feet from where it was wound, it will cancel its effect for any creatures who have wound it within the last 24 hours.

[Falcon X]

Amulet of Health if you have a magic market type of game.

Maybe multiclassing to shadow monk for extra mobility and the popping in and out of view like I remember Zorro did.

Rogue 2 can be nice for attacking and getting out of range before the enemy attack.


The big problem of low con is stuff that bypass AC(like save for half) and concentration.

A clock of displacement can also help.
Shadow monk or similar effect. I never thought about that, but she would love it. I’ll look into working that ability into the campaign somehow, or possibly a multiclass. Good flavor idea!

[Mad_Saulot]

I let my players respec at any time pretty much, until their characters have become established in the world.

[Jophiel]

It sounds like these were originally short-term characters who are now long-term. I'd give everyone a free rebuild if they want it now that they have a feeling for what they're doing. If the bard wants to go with more Constitution or if they feel that they want the character more frail for character purposes, they have the chance to make that happen. But, especially for new players less familiar with the mechanics, sometimes what you envisioned in your head is less fun on the table.

[Zetakya]

Swashbuckler Rogue is a better choice than Shadow Monk I think; too much of Monk requires you to be unarmoured.

[sithlordnergal]

So there are a few options:

1) Don't worry too much about it. Continue as usual, and maybe give the player a few ways to boost AC through magic items. This one is risky for the player, but do-able

2) Give the player an item that boosts Con. There is one that sets your Con to 19, but it requires attunement and requires handing out a specific magic item. Plus if she enters an anti-
Magic area her HP will fall back to her base 10 con hp.

3) My personal favorite that I use in my games. I allow players to completely rebuild their character as many times as they want until they reach level 6. I feel this is the best option, since it will let your one player rebuild their PC with high con, and it lets the newer players experiment

[Damon_Tor]

I think you are looking at an in game reasoning for it when the actual answer requires out of game. Now that the three newer player has a better grasp of their characters and the game under their belt you should allow them to reassign their stats if they wish to.

I had one campaign with a bunch of beginner players who came to regret some aspects of their build and even backstory and stuff. They were on the cusp of leveling up anyway, so I had each of them write a new version of their characters, rebuilt however they liked and one level higher (one declined to do so, happy with his guy). In the middle of the next session the players were in the middle of an extremely difficult encounter and a tear in the fabric of reality opened up and their alternate characters (except the guy who didn't make one) came through it and joined the battle, turning the tide.

In their reality, the one guy's character had died during this battle, so they came back to stop it. Once the battle was one the timelines merged and the players got to play as the new slightly better versions of themselves. The one guy who didn't respec got to level up as normal and got a sweet magic item.

[Keravath]

Is there really such a big issue with letting a player eat their mistake and letting them suffer from their decisions?

If it's a rmortality problem the player can make a new character before the old one is forced into an early grave...

In this case, these are new players to the game. They haven't played before, they don't know the value of specific stats to specific builds. If this lower constitution is actually making the character less fun for them to play then absolutely let them fix it. It is much more important for new players to enjoy playing rather than forcing the new player "eat their mistake and suffer for their decisions" when they were completely clueless about the game when those decisions were made.

New players need to learn that the game is fun, the DM is flexible and in the long run the decisions the characters make have consequences. However, the decisions newbie players make in character creation should not have detrimental consequences since they are learning the game.

As someone mentioned, Adventurer's League addresses this by allowing players to change everything except the character name up until they have played their first session at level 5 at which point stats/class/etc are fixed. This lets new players find characters that they want to play and build characters even with mistakes but allow them to make adjustments as they learn the game and talk to both other players and DMs. You could adopt a similar policy for new players by allowing some sort of rebuilding for everyone and explain it as being specifically for people new to the game since they can't be expected to make perfect decisions with their first characters.

[Aprender]

I have a new player who used point buy to give his char 6 odd stats because "higher number are better, right".

Yeah. Sometimes it's easier to let them move some numbers around than warp every combat and item reward around a decision the player didn't fully understand.

[Sigreid]

At our table we've agreed that up through 5th level you can change your character any way you like and we'll just pretend it was always that way. Doesn't get used a lot, but by 5th level you've usually got your character figured out.

[BoxANT]

you know, experiencing the death of your first character is part of the total d&d experience

[ProsecutorGodot]

you know, experiencing the death of your first character is part of the total d&d experience

It's one of the most useful tools of teaching in DND. It taught me not to ask for the game to be modified too much, we all thought it would be fun to include fumble tables. In our first game. Playing Hoard of the Dragon Queen.

As for my advice, pull the player aside and explain to them why you think its a problem and offer them a chance to correct it through a small change in ability scores. Don't force this change on the player. That's something else I learned early into DND, problems that you perceive might not be as problematic as they appear.

Constitution is pretty critical for a melee character, especially one with a d8 hit die. I would make sure to use that information in your attempts to persuade the player. While learning through the characters death that they had a critical weakness, it's not a fun experience.

I'm torn on it really, my first character death still bothers me but it was a very valuable learning experience. It's an effective tool for teaching but it can really sour the experience for new players who weren't properly informed on how high stakes the early levels of DND can be.

[Maelynn]

I know what you meant to type, but now I totally want one of these!

So not a Time-Turner, but a Place-Turner. The more times you turn it, the farther away you'll end up. Nais. I might look into this fandom some more and see if there's other things that are suitable to D&D-ify. :D


Indeed, they all do seem to be having lots of fun so far :)

I merely wanted to be prepared in case it became an issue.

Aaah, this is good - and I think a lot of responses would've been less of a warning if you had stated this in your original post. It's good to be prepared for what might happen, just as long as you don't decide for the players whether or not it is an issue.

[opaopajr]

... :smallcool: Or you could ask if she's happy with her character and its HP challenge? Just a thought.

Maybe she made a PC choice she wants to live with. :smalltongue:

[Wizard_Lizard]

10 con isn't THAT bad...

[Man_Over_Game]

10 con isn't THAT bad...

The concern here is that the player wants to be a Swords Bard.


Bards get 1d8 HP per level.
Swords Bards don't get medium armor.
Swords Bards are also melee combatants.
Bards also rely on 3 different stats (Constitution, Dexterity, Charisma), so it's unlikely that their Con or Dex will ever get maxed out.




If you compared this to, say, a standard Fighter with a 12 Con at level 6 (Can afford the extra investment into Con due to Fighters getting more feats), and both having a Dexterity of 14, you're looking at:

Bard
HP: 27
AC: 14

Fighter
HP: 38
AC: 16

The Fighter has 40% more HP, is hit 12% less often against creatures who have a +6 hit bonus (effectively +4 more HP), and also has access to Second Wind.

[Demonslayer666]

The concern here is that the player wants to be a Swords Bard.


Bards get 1d8 HP per level.
Swords Bards don't get medium armor.
Swords Bards are also melee combatants.
Bards also rely on 3 different stats (Constitution, Dexterity, Charisma), so it's unlikely that their Con or Dex will ever get maxed out.




If you compared this to, say, a standard Fighter with a 12 Con at level 6 (Can afford the extra investment into Con due to Fighters getting more feats), and both having a Dexterity of 14, you're looking at:

Bard
HP: 27
AC: 14

Fighter
HP: 38
AC: 16

The Fighter has 40% more HP, is hit 12% less often against creatures who have a +6 hit bonus (effectively +4 more HP), and also has access to Second Wind.

Shouldn't you be comparing a sword bard with 10 con to a sword bard with a higher con? Sword Bards should not be as good as a fighter because they are a bard and have other abilities to account for their lack of melee prowess. Doesn't seem like a valid comparison.

[MaxWilson]

Swords Bards don't get medium armor.

They get medium armor proficiency at third level. They just don't get shield proficiency.

[Man_Over_Game]

Shouldn't you be comparing a sword bard with 10 con to a sword bard with a higher con? Sword Bards should not be as good as a fighter because they are a bard and have other abilities to account for their lack of melee prowess. Doesn't seem like a valid comparison.

I did that because the Bard wants to play like a Fighter, not play like a Bard. A Swords Bard that plays a strictly melee character isn't much more acceptable with 12 Con as he would be with 10 Con. A melee Fighter with 12 Con and Medium Armor is just acceptable, and THAT'S the bar the player wants to hit.

It'd be like comparing a D- test score, saying that you can improve by learning from your friend who got a D+, yet you need it to be an A- to pass the class. It's not about the Swords Bard being bad, it's about the player's character being a bad replacement for a Fighter.


They get medium armor proficiency at third level. They just don't get shield proficiency.

Ah, damn, I always make that mistake! That does improve things a bit, though.

[Malbrack]

I really like the idea of multiclassing into Swashbuckler. That fits Zorro well, and it still benefits from a high charisma. She could use hit-and-run tactics to pick off archers or stragglers (since she doesn't need the help of allies to trigger sneak attack) instead of standing right in the center of the melee.

There's probably more optimal builds, but I think a Swords Bard/Swashbuckler Rogue sounds like a lot of fun. Great mobility. Expertise in several things. Levels of rogue would delay getting extra attack, but sneak attack dice kind of makes up for it.

[Reynaert]

TBH, I don't think that this character will get to 0hp that much less if her con gets upped. AIUI, your grous is level 3, so we're talking about 3 or maybe 6 hp. That's one extra hit, maybe. The low AC is probably a bigger problem, so a +1 studded leather of armor proficiency would prolly help a lot more. Give it bright flashy colors for stealth disadvantage if you want a handicap.

[Waterdeep Merch]

You could always include a Manual of Bodily Health in the next major treasure hoard/quest reward. Provided there aren't any barbarians (who would absolutely be the right person to give it to, even if the bard's got low Con), this is a relatively simple fix that doesn't require retcons or rebuilds and feels like a reward instead.

[SteelArcana]

Don't know how helpful this is, but if it was me I wouldn't change a thing. Let them make their mistake. If their character gets eviscerated and dies in an encounter, then they learned not to take a character with a d8 hit dice, low AC, and 10 constitution into melee.

If you're feeling more benevolent than that, you could always just give them the option to respec.

[Zetakya]

The concern here is that the player wants to be a Swords Bard.


Bards get 1d8 HP per level.
Swords Bards don't get medium armor.
Swords Bards are also melee combatants.
Bards also rely on 3 different stats (Constitution, Dexterity, Charisma), so it's unlikely that their Con or Dex will ever get maxed out.




If you compared this to, say, a standard Fighter with a 12 Con at level 6 (Can afford the extra investment into Con due to Fighters getting more feats), and both having a Dexterity of 14, you're looking at:

Bard
HP: 27
AC: 14

Fighter
HP: 38
AC: 16

The Fighter has 40% more HP, is hit 12% less often against creatures who have a +6 hit bonus (effectively +4 more HP), and also has access to Second Wind.

And the Bard has the ability to trigger Blade Ward or Defensive Flourish, either of which will assist. Especially since any of the Flourishes give +movement, so you can exit dangerous situations and not get pulled back in if you don't want to be.

[Nagog]

I started DMing a game with 3 new players. I intended it to be a short campaign, and I wanted them to feel like creating their characters how they felt like. So, I didn't correct the Bard who gave herself a 10 in constitution.

It became a problem when she hit level 3 and decided that Sword College fit her character (She took Zorro as inspiration), and we decided to make it a longer campaign.
The players were also getting more into the rules and seeing the problem. While she hasn't complained, I have heard them trying to self-medicate the problem (Their best idea is to through an ASI into CHA instead of CON, so she would get more uses of Defensive Flourish.)

As a DM, how might I best help my player not die so quickly as a melee fighter with 10 CON?
I have considered:
- Having them find a magic item that boosts CON or HP.
- Give her a ring that lets her use the shield spell.
- Giving them all a boost in some way from an angel or djinn or something so she doesn't feel singled out.
- Seeing if she would take a 1 level multiclass in... something.
- Homebrew a feat for her that lets her use her charisma to boost her protectiveness.

Any ideas?

I had a simple, custom magic item I had in Pathfinder for a similar situation. Idk if I have the exact info but the jist of it was a ring that granted 10 temporary hit points at the beginning of the day, and would refresh on a short rest. Called it the Band of Beefy Bulwark. It's nothing game breaking, as temp HP doesn't have any uses (to my knowledge) outside of just tanking damage (unless you count Armor of Agathys, but I doubt their Zorro inspiration would include Warlock levels or spells), and with only 10 it doesn't last super long, but it helps. Doesn't turn the player into the party tank but it will prevent you from going down every combat encounter.

[Nagog]

I did that because the Bard wants to play like a Fighter, not play like a Bard. A Swords Bard that plays a strictly melee character isn't much more acceptable with 12 Con as he would be with 10 Con. A melee Fighter with 12 Con and Medium Armor is just acceptable, and THAT'S the bar the player wants to hit.

It'd be like comparing a D- test score, saying that you can improve by learning from your friend who got a D+, yet you need it to be an A- to pass the class. It's not about the Swords Bard being bad, it's about the player's character being a bad replacement for a Fighter.

I guess the main question is if the player in question is looking to be the main front line fighter or a supplementary one. If there is also a fighter in the group, they may be able to pull it off, as long as they play it safe and don't take a lot of risky maneuvers. If they are looking to be the main front line damage tank, they will die, easily.

I'd heavily consider encouraging this character to play like a Rogue, and treating the combat experience as a battle of wits moreso than a brawl. That could lean into the Zorro aesthetic, as I always pictured Zorro more as a rogue than any other class.

[Snails]

It is also worth noting that the PC may drop unconscious a lot, but she is not likely to die if someone can pop Healing Words at him. It is not really a problem unless this is messing with the player's fun.

Using the next ASI to pick up the Tough feat makes sense -- it really is better than Con in this situation.

[djreynolds]

I started DMing a game with 3 new players. I intended it to be a short campaign, and I wanted them to feel like creating their characters how they felt like. So, I didn't correct the Bard who gave herself a 10 in constitution.

It became a problem when she hit level 3 and decided that Sword College fit her character (She took Zorro as inspiration), and we decided to make it a longer campaign.
The players were also getting more into the rules and seeing the problem. While she hasn't complained, I have heard them trying to self-medicate the problem (Their best idea is to through an ASI into CHA instead of CON, so she would get more uses of Defensive Flourish.)

As a DM, how might I best help my player not die so quickly as a melee fighter with 10 CON?
I have considered:
- Having them find a magic item that boosts CON or HP.
- Give her a ring that lets her use the shield spell.
- Giving them all a boost in some way from an angel or djinn or something so she doesn't feel singled out.
- Seeing if she would take a 1 level multiclass in... something.
- Homebrew a feat for her that lets her use her charisma to boost her protectiveness.

Any ideas?

So this 3rd level bard may have 18hp with 10 con and standard HP given (8,5,5)

Even with a 14 in con, its 24hp, yes at 3rd level its a lot, but only a 6 point difference

1. Its a 3 person party, maybe grab 2 friends for 2 more players

2. Maybe get the party a sidekick

3. What are the rest of her stats? A 10 con might seem low, but if they're sporting an 18 dexterity and a shortbow, they are very dangerous.

4. They will have to learn to set the battlefield in their favor and remain always cautious. Every needs a melee and ranged attack

5. A shortbow and light crossbow can handle stuff out to 80ft, even with a 16dex that is +5 to hit and 1d6+3... what are they fighting?

6. Retreat when needed, let the party know that they can run or even give up and try talking their way of out fights

7. What spells does she know? Charm person, sleep, warding wind, invisibility, hold person