OOTS #1170 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Aeson]

I take it those uncontested deaths from the past century or so might be what Loki brought that filing cabinet for.

[Forikroder]

I take it those uncontested deaths from the past century or so might be what Loki brought that filing cabinet for.

so nice to see them working together like this

oh hey i just realised thats a cape not Lokis hair

[Coyote0715]

Now who's subtlety distracting who?

[ErebusVonMori]

I think the gods might have thought ahead on this one. Even money on there being a queue of gods outside with a list of souls to contest.

[DavidSh]

Now I wonder how many gods are in on this?

[Forikroder]

Now I wonder how many gods are in on this?

guessing all of the major ones but Odin but then Loki seems prepared to handle the rest solo

[Lord Torath]

Oh, way to go Thor! And Loki!

Thanks, Rich!


Now who's subtlety distracting who?Subtlely? yeah, "no." That's anything but subtle. :smallbiggrin:

[Cirin]

Now I wonder how many gods are in on this?

I'd expect every deity in their pantheon that's voting in favor of saving the world to be in on this one.

On another note, this one had be bona-fide laughing out loud. . .just Loki rolling in there with a filing cabinet, all cheerful, ready to either force Hel to turn over every Dwarven soul she's got in the last century unless she's willing to argue with Loki over all of them (and thus not be able to directly intervene in the battle).

Seeing the Thor/Loki teamwork is awesome.

[hamishspence]

The Noted Expert seems familiar - looks a lot like one of the Ettin Heads in How The Paladin Got His Scar.

[thorr-kan]

Boo. Yah.

Go, Thor!

[Djagir]

It's nice to see that the trickster god isn't going to be keeping things low-key.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The best possible comic adaptation of Thor: Ragnarok.

[georgie_leech]

"Alright, I will stop distracting you." :smallbiggrin:

[RaveDave92084]

Thor and Loki, together again.

Dynamic duo out to save the world.

I had something like that rattling inside my head when I saw the comic.

Wonder what a Chaotic Good god and a Lawful Evil god movie would look like...

[Basooned]

Anyone explain for someone not versed in divine legalese why Hel doesn't simply ignore the other gods for a wee bit?

[thorr-kan]

There's a line from The Vor Game, by Lois McMaster Bujold: "The key of strategy... is not to choose a path to victory, but to choose so that all paths lead to a victory."

Thor's read this book, I think. :)

[Psychronia]

Even though it's distinctly lawful, I wanna say that this was a Loki plan. It feels like a Loki plan.

Besides making for a great distraction, Thor and Loki are totally bailing out hundreds of thousands of souls right now. A century seems kinda short, actually, considering Dwarven lifespans.

[thorr-kan]

The best possible comic adaptation of Thor: Ragnarok.
"But...giant monster!"

[Forikroder]

Anyone explain for someone not versed in divine legalese why Hel doesn't simply ignore the other gods for a wee bit?

and what? she cant interact with the mortal realm if there standing int he room with her

though she should realise shes being watched too closely to try and intervene now

[Tuhlore]

I haven't said hell yes to these comics in a while, but that was so satisfying

[Ninja Dragon]

I mean, she could just release every soul she has ever gotten.

But then I suppose she'll lose her divine power.

It's W/W for Thor.

[Kranerian]

I wonder if suddenly losing a filing cabinet's worth of souls from the last century would cause a noticeable dip in Hel's divine power?
Would that be enough to let Thor and Loki do something about the whole situation, or is this just a distraction?

[HUMVEE Driver]

First I want to say that Hela is a badass!

Second, Thor, get with it.

[Ruck]

Heh, I like that Thor continues to keep to his word that he can't interfere on the Mortal Plane, but as soon as they get an inkling Hel is going to try to interfere, he and Loki show up to keep her occupied until the opportunity passes.

And, of course, finally giving Thrym the dating advice he needs.

[NerdyKris]

Anyone explain for someone not versed in divine legalese why Hel doesn't simply ignore the other gods for a wee bit?

Re-read the second panel.

[Forikroder]

I wonder if suddenly losing a filing cabinet's worth of souls from the last century would cause a noticeable dip in Hel's divine power?
Would that be enough to let Thor and Loki do something about the whole situation, or is this just a distraction?

Thor and Loki are not allowed to interact in the Mortal realm, her personal power doesnt change her vote

[Ruck]

First I want to say that Hela is a badass!

Second, Thor, get with it.

Get with what, exactly?

[Jaleou]

So if a soul is contested, would that body still work as a host for a vampire?

Is that a roundabout way to kick the vampires out of the hosts in either location with voting vampires?

I registered to post this.

[ellindsey]

Anyone explain for someone not versed in divine legalese why Hel doesn't simply ignore the other gods for a wee bit?

Hel wants to do something that is against the rules of the agreement she has with the other gods - directly intervene in mortal affairs. She can only get away with doing that if all the other gods are distracted and nobody is looking. She certainly can't get away with doing it if Thor or Loki or anyone else is standing behind her trying to get her attention.

[Lord Torath]

First I want to say that Hela is a badass!

Second, Thor, get with it.Wrong goddess of death. Hela is Thor's sister in MCUverse. Hel is Thor's niece (also possibly Redcloak's Niece, depending on which epileptic tree has been sneezing on you lately) in the OotSverse.

[Rogan]

You can be sure, some dwarf soules can hardly believe their luck

[Doug Lampert]

Oh, way to go Thor! And Loki!

Thanks, Rich!

Subtlely? yeah, "no." That's anything but subtle. :smallbiggrin:

I've been known to pronounce the "b" in Subtle in situations like this. Just to make it clear that this isn't quite correct.

Edited to add:

Wrong goddess of death. Hela is Thor's sister in MCUverse. Hel is Thor's niece (also possibly Redcloak's Niece, depending on which epileptic tree has been sneezing on you lately) in the OotSverse.

Shirley, we are all RedCloak's niece.

[Forikroder]

So if a soul is contested, would that body still work as a host for a vampire?

Is that a roundabout way to kick the vampires out of the hosts in either location with voting vampires?

I registered to post this.

Durkon died with Honour but was still a host so no

[Peelee]

First I want to say that Hela is a badass!

Second, Thor, get with it.

?

Hel's plan fails spectacularly here, and Thor & Loki are one step ahead of her.

[kiapet]

This comic is the latest in a string that got a genuine laugh out of me. Thanks Giant, I needed that today.

[Forikroder]

?

Hel's plan fails spectacularly here, and Thor & Loki are one step ahead of her.

shoulda just let her kill durkon and then kill the Vampire representing her vote though, guess there being optimists about it all though

[Peelee]

So if a soul is contested, would that body still work as a host for a vampire?

Is that a roundabout way to kick the vampires out of the hosts in either location with voting vampires?

I registered to post this.

Short answer, no. Vampire hosts get their souls held captive until the vamp is destroyed. The whole soul process is short-circuited, and they're not contested or judged or whatever until the soul is freed.

[Cirin]

If Hel was smart, she'd realize that she's being watched. . .exactly like she thought she wasn't, if she intervenes then the rest of the deities can intervene against her. She's lost the stealth she thought she had.

. . .and while she's distracted on that, they're going to claw back a LOT of Dwarven souls.

She's being outmaneuvered so badly, and she doesn't even realize it yet.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Hahaha. I laughed at the absurd idea of bureaucracy being used for good. So much so I didn't shorten it to lol.

A heart attack for durkon? its a good idea in theory, and this is a good plan made up by hel in the short term, though she didn't anticipate thor and loki working together.

Great page.

[Peelee]

shoulda just let her kill durkon and then kill the Vampire representing her vote though, guess there being optimists about it all though

And then the gods who voted to blow the world kill the non-vamped council members and the competing gods kill all the vamps and dominated council members and the vote ends tied but Dvalin is pissed and hey new snarl.

This looks like a "they pull out a knife, you pull out a gun" situation. The only fix, IMO, is to defuse the situation, not escalate.

[GregTD]

Wow, that is vicious!

I love it!

Thor and Loki, Brothers, working together to block their sister

[Schroeswald]

Bwahahahaha! First time I've actually laughed out loud for any comic in awhile, 10/10.

[Cirin]

Anyone explain for someone not versed in divine legalese why Hel doesn't simply ignore the other gods for a wee bit?

It seemed pretty clear if she ignored them, then she'd be defaulting on Thor's claim to the soul.

Hel gets all souls, except for those that die honorably.

Thor (and Loki and other deities apparently) can challenge Hel's claim on a soul after death. Apparently there's no expiration date/statue of limitations on that claim either.

Theoretically, it implies if Hel were to just completely ignore his claims, Thor could claim EVERY Dwarven soul that's ever died and he could free them all. Hence she has to at least acknowledge his claims and not just go about her business while he stands there and claims souls.

. . .that's at least my reading of the situation.

[GregTD]

"But...giant monster!"

That line makes me laugh every time.

Poor Hulk, having the rules changed on him like that

[gatemansgc]

hel is gonna find herself so drained of souls after all this that she's not going to be able to act, that's my take.

[GregTD]

It seemed pretty clear if she ignored them, then she'd be defaulting on Thor's claim to the soul.

Hel gets all souls, except for those that die honorably.

Thor (and Loki and other deities apparently) can challenge Hel's claim on a soul after death. Apparently there's no expiration date/statue of limitations on that claim either.

Theoretically, it implies if Hel were to just completely ignore his claims, Thor could claim EVERY Dwarven soul that's ever died and he could free them all. Hence she has to at least acknowledge his claims and not just go about her business while he stands there and claims souls.

. . .that's at least my reading of the situation.

I think it's simpler than that: Thor is right there, watching her. If she tries to do something while he's there, he will see her do it, and can act immediately against her.

So long as there's a God there watching her, she can't "sneak" in any actions

[TuringTest]

Now, speaking of distractions... :smallbiggrin:


Now who's subtlety distracting who?

Was there anything subtle about that? :smalltongue:


It's nice that Thor got to play a completely-and-undeniably-legal trick on her.

[Forikroder]

And then the gods who voted to blow the world kill the non-vamped council members and the competing gods kill all the vamps and dominated council members and the vote ends tied but Dvalin is pissed and hey new snarl.

This looks like a "they pull out a knife, you pull out a gun" situation. The only fix, IMO, is to defuse the situation, not escalate.

how many of the ones who voted yes even still want to?

if Hel kills his priest then hes allowed to retaliate by killing her priest, the rest of the gods have no excuse to intervente or even any desire to at this point

[Wraithfighter]

One of the more interesting things I've been noting in this arc has been all of the rules lawyering that's been going on. Hel's plan relies entirely on taking rigid rules and twisting them for her own ends. Durkon was placed in a situation where he was heavily restricted in what actions he could take, and played the rules just well enough to make things work.

Hell, the whole battle at the Godsmooot was filled with almost every character finding a way to fight within the rules.

And yeah, once again, we've got the good gods (...well, Good and Neutral) doing what they call to stymie Hel's plan... all while following the rules.

Can't break the rules, after all :D.

[FireJustice]

See?
that's why I fell in love with this comic.

Really clever.

Isn't a coincidence that it cointains Thor

[02youeng]

So if a soul is contested, would that body still work as a host for a vampire?

Is that a roundabout way to kick the vampires out of the hosts in either location with voting vampires?

I registered to post this.

This was one of my two theories! That, or she'll relinquish so many souls she'll lose a relevant amount of her power, and thus the plan hits a snag.

[Peelee]

how many of the ones who voted yes even still want to?

if Hel kills his priest then hes allowed to retaliate by killing her priest, the rest of the gods have no excuse to intervente or even any desire to at this point

>0. That's all it needs to be.

Also, no. If one God directly interferes with the world and another God does in kind, that doesn't even things out for all the other gods. They got an advantage over Tyr, for example, who got zero direct interferences. Think he'd let that slide? I don't.

[Forikroder]

>0. That's all it needs to be.

if Hel kills Thors priest and then Thor kills Hels priest then [unrelated god] kills Thors priest then Thor just kills that gods priest, since Hel wasted her move killing a priest with no bearing on the vote the Yes gods will always have the advantage by being one up on the "killing vote relevant priests" race as long as the yes gods kill a vote sensitive priest in exhange for there priest being killed everything works out fine

[GregTD]

If Hel was smart, she'd realize that she's being watched. . .exactly like she thought she wasn't, if she intervenes then the rest of the deities can intervene against her. She's lost the stealth she thought she had.

. . .and while she's distracted on that, they're going to claw back a LOT of Dwarven souls.

She's being outmaneuvered so badly, and she doesn't even realize it yet.

+1

Yep, this is what happens when you get so locked into what you're planning on doing, that you can't respond successfully to what the other guy is doing.

See: David Weber's discussion of "Dominance and the Crease" in "Flag in Exile"

[Peelee]

if Hel kills Thors priest and then Thor kills Hels priest then [unrelated god] kills Thors priest then Thor just kills that gods priest, since Hel wasted her move killing a priest with no bearing on the vote the Yes gods will always have the advantage by being one up on the "killing vote relevant priests" race

Why does Hel only get one move in your scenario? Also, how would Thor kill the vampires? Hard for lightning to hit them when they're underground. Also, all the other gods need to do is kill Thor's dwarves; doesn't matter if a priest of Tyr dies and goes to Tyr if the world ends anyway. Tyr ain't got clerics in that fight, so Thor would be doing useless actions by going after that priest (even under the unnecessary "I can kill yours back" rule you want followed).

[endiku]

Not of fan of this tactic :(

Seriously; the purpose of honor and an afterlife is to reward desirable and punish undesirable behavior during life, so here we are undermining that system and rewarding cowards and the dishonorable.

Are we suggesting that the ends justify the means?

Or is it just "gosh darn it those wacky chaotic gods"

This doesn't feel consistent with the larger message.

[Forikroder]

Why does Hel only get one move in your scenario? Also, how would Thor kill the vampires? Hard for lightning to hit them when they're underground. Also, all the other gods need to do is kill Thor's dwarves; doesn't matter if a priest of Tyr dies and goes to Tyr if the world ends anyway. Tyr ain't got clerics in that fight, so Thor would be doing useless actions by going after that priest (even under the unnecessary "I can kill yours back" rule you want followed).

you think a God would have any difficulty attacking a mortal? or that Thor can only make lightning apear from the sky?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html

Tyr does have a priest in the pool and voted yes

and im assuming each god only gets one unprovoked move because the other gods then stop them from making any other rule breaking moves/dire consequences for breaking the rules multiple times

[Misna]

What if Loki and Thor make Hel accidentally agree that it is honorable for dwarves to die due to the world being destroyed?

[Doug Lampert]

Not of fan of this tactic :(

Seriously; the purpose of honor and an afterlife is to reward desirable and punish undesirable behavior during life, so here we are undermining that system and rewarding cowards and the dishonorable.

Are we suggesting that the ends justify the means?

Or is it just "gosh darn it those wacky chaotic gods"

This doesn't feel consistent with the larger message.

What larger message? The Dwarven honor system, which is based solely on conduct at death, not on how you live, is consistently presented as a horrible thing.

With the dishonorable death removed, those souls are now judged for their actual actions in their entire lives, including how they died.

[Fyraltari]

Only Loki can make ‘Hi, Pumpkin’ sound badass.

The Noted Expert seems familiar - looks a lot like one of the Ettin Heads in How The Paladin Got His Scar.
Thank you! I knew he looked familiar!

Even though it's distinctly lawful, I wanna say that this was a Loki plan. It feels like a Loki plan.

Besides making for a great distraction, Thor and Loki are totally bailing out hundreds of thousands of souls right now. A century seems kinda short, actually, considering Dwarven lifespans.
Thor said he wasn’t going to try to argue for the whole century, that tell us nothing about how far back that filing cabinet goes, nor how many more are behind that door. Get in and start the fillibusting so you can see Hel’s face as she realizes what’s happening and then let Loki do the actual fast-talking. That’s the one thing he’s actually competent at after all.

So if a soul is contested, would that body still work as a host for a vampire?

Is that a roundabout way to kick the vampires out of the hosts in either location with voting vampires?

I registered to post this.
No vampire is voting on anything.

?

Hel's plan fails spectacularly here, and Thor & Loki are one step ahead of her.
Which says nothing about Hela from the MCU. I am told she is indeed badass.

[Forikroder]

No vampire is voting on anything.

aside from the one in the godsmoot they left behind

[Fyraltari]

aside from the one in the godsmoot they left behind

Hel's voting, not her.

[Forikroder]

Hel's voting, not her.

hels voting through her, hel needs a high priest present for her vote to count

[ASCIInerd73]

No vampire is voting on anything.

Except it seems reasonable to conclude that a vampire who gets kicked out of their host can no longer dominate the dwarven elders; thus, the vote would be spared.

[Peelee]

Not of fan of this tactic :(

Seriously; the purpose of honor and an afterlife is to reward desirable and punish undesirable behavior during life, so here we are undermining that system and rewarding cowards and the dishonorable.

Are we suggesting that the ends justify the means?

Or is it just "gosh darn it those wacky chaotic gods"

This doesn't feel consistent with the larger message.
The larger message is "the dwarves got a raw deal." Humans in the comic openly gape at how it affected their society. "Honor" for Dwarves means not living to old age and dying peacefully. I don't see that as undesirable behavior, I see that as arbitrary standards. Literally the first example we see in this strip is a woman who died of pneumonia. How dare she, apparently.

I do agree, though, that this showcases Thor's chaoticness. :smallwink:

you think a God would have any difficulty attacking a mortal? or that Thor can only make lightning apear from the sky?
I think gods would affect the world in ways fitting with their portfolio. Thor uses lightning on the Mechane. Hel wants to go after Durkon with a heart attack.

Also, "no directly interfering" seems like a pretty toothless rule if the only drawback is "one other God gets to interfere as well." Not to mention how easily that could be gamed.


Which says nothing about Hela from the MCU. I am told she is indeed badass.

True, but I haven't heard anything either way. I defer to your judgment.


Except it seems reasonable to conclude that a vampire who gets kicked out of their host can no longer dominate the dwarven elders; thus, the vote would be spared.

Assuming a single vampire, yes. We know that is not the case though.

[Forikroder]

I think gods would affect the world in ways fitting with their portfolio. Thor uses lightning on the Mechane. Hel wants to go after Durkon with a heart attack.

that was thor indirectly intervening by making a thunderstorm and hel being subtle to not get caught

[Kereminde]

There's a line from The Vor Game, by Lois McMaster Bujold: "The key of strategy... is not to choose a path to victory, but to choose so that all paths lead to a victory."

Thor's read this book, I think. :)

So have I, and Miles Naismith is only slightly less awesome than Miles Vorkosigan. Mind you, this doesn't bring to mind "The Vor Game" for me - it brings to mind the climax of "A Civil Campaign", which was also proving Ivan was really capable in his own way.

Also, Loki brought the Filing Cabinet of Holding, I see.

[Fyraltari]

Except it seems reasonable to conclude that a vampire who gets kicked out of their host can no longer dominate the dwarven elders; thus, the vote would be spared.
First, I was just being my nitpicky self.
Second, it doesn't mater since any soul that has reached an afterlife cannot be at the same time trapped by a vampire inside their own former body for reasons that should be plainly obvious.


I think gods would affect the world in ways fitting with their portfolio. Thor uses lightning on the Mechane. Hel wants to go after Durkon with a heart attack.

Also, "no directly interfering" seems like a pretty toothless rule if the only drawback is "one other God gets to interfere as well." Not to mention how easily that could be gamed.
Assuming a single vampire, yes. We know that is not the case though.
This already came up. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html)

[Draconi Redfir]

The Gods must be crazy :smallbiggrin:

[Cicciograna]

Thor and Loki are the best bros.

[Peelee]

that was thor indirectly intervening by making a thunderstorm and hel being subtle to not get caught

Which brings the number of examples in favor of my argument to >0. Do you have any examples in favor of your argument?

[endiku]

With the dishonorable death removed, those souls are now judged for their actual actions in their entire lives, including how they died.

Hmm - I can see your point I guess - if you assume that the two examples were otherwise good - I'm not getting that from the comic.

The larger "message" I mean is that while the system may suck as implemented - honor is nevertheless important - Thor's claiming that "running away was justifiable in this case" doesn't sound very honorable in the larger sense - not just the manner of death sense.

[Ralanr]

Thor and Loki, together unstoppable.

[Peelee]

This already came up. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html)

Indeed, that shows the rules to be quite full of teeth after the fact and more than just "the injured party can retaliate only to the same degree and then all's good."

[Fish]

Seriously; the purpose of honor and an afterlife is to reward desirable and punish undesirable behavior during life...
Sure, if there were such a system, then this comic would undermine it. However, that is not the purpose of this system.

This system does not reward “behavior during life.” It rewards “circumstances at the moment of death,” which is not always within the individual’s control. I don’t see much about the system in question worthy of being saved.

[Jay R]

Wonder what a Chaotic Good god and a Lawful Evil god movie would look like...

Hijinks ensue.


Not of fan of this tactic :(

Seriously; the purpose of honor and an afterlife is to reward desirable and punish undesirable behavior during life, so here we are undermining that system and rewarding cowards and the dishonorable.

That's not my reading of Hel's Bargain (strip #1083) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html). This was an intentional con game to reduce Hel's power and influence.


Are we suggesting that the ends justify the means?

Or is it just "gosh darn it those wacky chaotic gods"

This doesn't feel consistent with the larger message.

The "honor" deal between Thor, Loki, and Hel was always an unfair political swindle of gods playing word games for mortal souls. I don't see that it's gotten any worse when they are now using it to save the entire world.

[Kereminde]

Hmm - I can see your point I guess - if you assume that the two examples were otherwise good - I'm not getting that from the comic.

The larger "message" I mean is that while the system may suck as implemented - honor is nevertheless important - Thor's claiming that "running away was justifiable in this case" doesn't sound very honorable in the larger sense - not just the manner of death sense.

Thor is looking at a bigger picture, as if the plan goes off - Hel gets every currently living soul. That's why he's willing to subvert the system so obviously, and this is the point where the system breaks down if she wins anyway. What is more likely to come out of this is The Bet being called off instead of being twisted into the purpose Hel is working towards.

Of course, with no Bet underlying the whole problem . . . Hel no longer has motive to agree to the world being blown up other than spite. (She'd do it, but it would benefit her not at all.)

[Forikroder]

Which brings the number of examples in favor of my argument to >0. Do you have any examples in favor of your argument?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html

2nd panel if she breaks the rules first she loses

[Fyraltari]

Hmm - I can see your point I guess - if you assume that the two examples were otherwise good - I'm not getting that from the comic.

The larger "message" I mean is that while the system may suck as implemented - honor is nevertheless important - Thor's claiming that "running away was justifiable in this case" doesn't sound very honorable in the larger sense - not just the manner of death sense.
Why? If these two people were evil, they'll get an evil afterlife. It's not a dichotomy between Hel and Valhalla it's a dichotomy between Hel's particular corner of one of the seventeen afterlifes and the usual deal.

[Lord Torath]

Thor and Loki, Brothers, working together to block their sisterNope. Hel is Loki's daughter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html) and thus, Thor's niece.

[Kantaki]

Loki and Thor are awesome when they work together.
Well, awesomer.:smallcool:

„Hi Pumpkin” made me literally cackle like a madman.:smallbiggrin:

[Cifer]

Hmm - I can see your point I guess - if you assume that the two examples were otherwise good - I'm not getting that from the comic.

The larger "message" I mean is that while the system may suck as implemented - honor is nevertheless important - Thor's claiming that "running away was justifiable in this case" doesn't sound very honorable in the larger sense - not just the manner of death sense.We don't know the larger sense. It's entirely possible Regin Greenhammer was a decent person overcome by a moment of weakness. Or maybe he wasn't. The point is: Taking exactly this last moment of his life to determine what the rest of eternity should be like for him is not in any way fair. However, by getting him out of Hel's clutches, the soul can get to the afterlife they actually deserve. Maybe that's Valhalla, maybe it's some evil plane of punishment, but it won't be Helheim. So justice is done to the souls and Hel is weakened. Win-win.

[Peelee]

Thor is looking at a bigger picture, as if the plan goes off - Hel gets every currently living soul. That's why he's willing to subvert the system so obviously

Hes willing to subvert the system so obviously long before that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html).

[Kereminde]

Hes willing to subvert the system so obviously long before that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html).

That's not subverting the system, that's doing your job advocating for what you believe. (Assuming the details are correct, and not made up, which we can't say for certain.) This one time we do know he's subverting things, knowing/guessing she won't have time to argue with him, and intentionally tying up her time arguing for souls he probably wouldn't have a right to claim otherwise.

The fact Loki is coming in behind him kinda adds to that feel of "yeah, he's subverting the system to prevent this major catastrophe from going off quite as neatly". There's still a chance it could happen, right now. (We all sort of know it's not going to happen, because narrative structure and the motion of the plot is going to suggest the Order's allies manage to stop it.) But Thor's interference with Loki is to keep Hel from doing anything "while nobody is looking", at the cost of nakedly subverting the system in place.

The benefit is, I don't think many gods are going to really get in the way of it since . . . as mentioned . . . if the world goes up, Hel becomes more powerful than the others due to the weight of souls going into Her domain.

[Sir_Galliant]

1. This was the funniest strip in a while.
2. Extremely clever on Thor and Loki's part; even if the heroes lose (which I doubt will happen), Hel will likely lose a lot of power as well.
3. Hypothetically, would dying of a heart attack directly by a god in the middle of a battle count as honorable?

[Forikroder]

This one time we do know he's subverting things

there was that one time he argued fighting a tree is dieing honourably

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html

[redzimmer]

It's nice to see that the trickster god isn't going to be keeping things low-key.

... I'll allow this.

[Kantaki]

We don't know the larger sense. It's entirely possible Regin Greenhammer was a decent person overcome by a moment of weakness. Or maybe he wasn't. The point is: Taking exactly this last moment of his life to determine what the rest of eternity should be like for him is not in any way fair. However, by getting him out of Hel's clutches, the soul can get to the afterlife they actually deserve. Maybe that's Valhalla, maybe it's some evil plane of punishment, but it won't be Helheim. So justice is done to the souls and Hel is weakened. Win-win.

I mean, it's not like we know why he ran.
Maybe he figured the battle was lost and it was more important to inform whoever his group worked about them getting wiped out.

Or they were delivering a message or something and he tried to get it away from the orcs.

Or he was a coward and justified running with living to avenge his friends being more honourable than pointlessly dying with them.

[endiku]

Why? If these two people were evil, they'll get an evil afterlife. It's not a dichotomy between Hel and Valhalla it's a dichotomy between Hel's particular corner of one of the seventeen afterlifes and the usual deal.

Hmm - well, if true that would make sense, but the way Thor is arguing implies that they were both going to Valhalla since he's arguing they died honorably...which is demonstrably (rule of funny) not true.

[Peelee]

That's not subverting the system, that's doing your job advocating for what you believe.

Oh c'mon, that patently fails the smell test.

[137beth]

Thor and Loki team up is amazing. I suspect that he might be trying to trick her into breaking the Rules while he watches. I wonder exactly how far Loki is going to push Hel before she snaps.

[Kereminde]

there was that one time he argued fighting a tree is dieing honourably

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html

I can make a case that one deals with bravery as what the individual believes, rather than the facts of the case. Believing an elm is a heinous enemy . . . would make dying due to a 'wound' taken from one an honorable death, no?

(... if it's not clear by now this system really needs some loopholes closed, Loki's pitch should clear that up. By the by, don't let him near the new rules, we'll never find the loopholes.)

[Kereminde]

Oh c'mon, that patently fails the smell test.

Mummy rot does stink rather bad, I must admit.

[Schroeswald]

there was that one time he argued fighting a tree is dieing honourably



The point seems to be that she thought she was fighting the enemy so she was acting honorably (in a similar vain as Hilgya, honor to their religion, hers just isn't an accurate depiction of her god).

EDIT: Ninja'd by Kereminde

[DougTheHead]

I like that Mildred Thickbelt is obviously so cowardly that she screams in terror upon merely looking Hel in the face.

[Psyren]

Hel's shortsightedness continues to be her biggest weakness.

What about the Sphinx Pox gambit? Has the (air)ship sailed on that?

[Anarion]

Thor and Loki working together is always terrifying. :smallwink:

[HandofShadows]

Epic. Thor and Loki working together. I don't think Hel has much, if ANY chance to win this one. :smallcool:

[Kereminde]

The point seems to be that she thought she was fighting the enemy so she was acting honorably (in a similar vain as Hilgya, honor to their religion, hers just isn't an accurate depiction of her god).

EDIT: Ninja'd by Kereminde

Mind you, I'm just working through this because divine negotiations would be one of those . . . things . . . I've had in mind trying to think through for a long time. Because the pantheons really do have to work together to make it all work, and how do you do that if you are supposedly sworn enemies a la Bahamut/Tiamat? As opposed to more rivals in the same sphere of influence like Ares/Athena...

[LunarDrop]

Wow, I'm really impressed with Thor and Loki here. Good on them putting aside their differences for the greater good.
And all those dwarves get a happy afterlife ending too! What a nice little bonus.

[Kereminde]

Wow, I'm really impressed with Thor and Loki here. Good on them putting aside their differences for the greater good.
And all those dwarves get a happy afterlife ending too! What a nice little bonus.

I don't think "greater good" is as much on their minds as "keeping Hel from getting too powerful". In short, they're aligned against a more dangerous foe for the moment. (Along with maybe many other people from the same pantheon.)

[Squire Doodad]

Hel's shortsightedness continues to be her biggest weakness.

What about the Sphinx Pox gambit? Has the (air)ship sailed on that?

I think someone did the math and the Sphinx Pox will take place a week after Belkar is slated to die or something. Basically, it will finish incubating right after everyone saves the day for goodish.

[Doug Lampert]

Hmm - I can see your point I guess - if you assume that the two examples were otherwise good - I'm not getting that from the comic.

The larger "message" I mean is that while the system may suck as implemented - honor is nevertheless important - Thor's claiming that "running away was justifiable in this case" doesn't sound very honorable in the larger sense - not just the manner of death sense.

You are adding something never seen in the comic. They go to their gods for judgement. That's the total effect of getting their deaths declared honorable.


Why? If these two people were evil, they'll get an evil afterlife. It's not a dichotomy between Hel and Valhalla it's a dichotomy between Hel's particular corner of one of the seventeen afterlifes and the usual deal.


We don't know the larger sense. It's entirely possible Regin Greenhammer was a decent person overcome by a moment of weakness. Or maybe he wasn't. The point is: Taking exactly this last moment of his life to determine what the rest of eternity should be like for him is not in any way fair. However, by getting him out of Hel's clutches, the soul can get to the afterlife they actually deserve. Maybe that's Valhalla, maybe it's some evil plane of punishment, but it won't be Helheim. So justice is done to the souls and Hel is weakened. Win-win.

See above.


Hmm - well, if true that would make sense, but the way Thor is arguing implies that they were both going to Valhalla since he's arguing they died honorably...which is demonstrably (rule of funny) not true.

Where does he imply that?! He STATES that they will go to their respective god's domains, which is the normal course of affairs. He never says they all go to Valhalla. If they go to their god, as normal, then they are judged there, again as normal.

[DougTheHead]

Hmm - well, if true that would make sense, but the way Thor is arguing implies that they were both going to Valhalla since he's arguing they died honorably...which is demonstrably (rule of funny) not true.

Thor's exact words:

"An excellent choice. I'm sure each of those dwarf souls will enjoy their new afterlife in their respective god's domain." [sic, because the plural pronoun means it should be "respective gods' domains."]

He does not say "their new afterlife in Valhalla." He states that they will go to whatever area of the afterlife is consistent with their worship/morality.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Hmm - I can see your point I guess - if you assume that the two examples were otherwise good - I'm not getting that from the comic.

The larger "message" I mean is that while the system may suck as implemented - honor is nevertheless important - Thor's claiming that "running away was justifiable in this case" doesn't sound very honorable in the larger sense - not just the manner of death sense.

Now that is just rude! Whaat woukd you do in that situation?
Running away from a fight that you have no chance to win does NOT deserve eternal damnation!

[Schroeswald]

Mind you, I'm just working through this because divine negotiations would be one of those . . . things . . . I've had in mind trying to think through for a long time. Because the pantheons really do have to work together to make it all work, and how do you do that if you are supposedly sworn enemies a la Bahamut/Tiamat? As opposed to more rivals in the same sphere of influence like Ares/Athena...

I mean my understanding of mythologies isn't great, but considering that Loki and Thor don't like each other and get into fights a lot (they can have arguments because they have the same color I believe) but have to work together shows that sworn enemies aren't as big here, and the Western Gods haven't been shown in any significant way so understanding how their pantheon works would be hard (while the Northern is easier because several of them are significant-ish characters, and I understand Norse myths more than Babylonian or whatever the westerners are).

[Ruck]

Not of fan of this tactic :(

Seriously; the purpose of honor and an afterlife is to reward desirable and punish undesirable behavior during life, so here we are undermining that system and rewarding cowards and the dishonorable.

Are we suggesting that the ends justify the means?

Or is it just "gosh darn it those wacky chaotic gods"

This doesn't feel consistent with the larger message.

You have obviously missed the larger message that the Dwarven afterlife process is patently, even monstrously, unfair.

[Sir_Galliant]

Something tells me this distraction had been planned in advance for a long time.

[Fyraltari]

Hmm - well, if true that would make sense, but the way Thor is arguing implies that they were both going to Valhalla since he's arguing they died honorably...which is demonstrably (rule of funny) not true.
No. Dying honorably grants them the same process as everyone else, not Valhalla. They'll go to Valhalla only if that happens to be the afterlife that matches their alignment and/or religion.

Oh c'mon, that patently fails the smell test.
No, it doesn't? That's the same as dying of a wound received in battle in my book.

I like that Mildred Thickbelt is obviously so cowardly that she screams in terror upon merely looking Hel in the face.
I'd like to see how you would react to an angry evil goddess of death and disease popping up in your field of vision trying to claim your soul for eternal torture.

Thor's exact words:

"An excellent choice. I'm sure each of those dwarf souls will enjoy their new afterlife in their respective god's domain." [sic, because the plural pronoun means it should be "respective gods' domains."
No, I'm pretty sure they only each get to go to one god's domain.

[Forikroder]

Now that is just rude! Whaat woukd you do in that situation?
Running away from a fight that you have no chance to win does NOT deserve eternal damnation!

assuming it was a fight they couldnt win, maybe he ran as soon as the orcs attacked, got shot for dessertion by his captain, and then the dwarves cleaned up the orcs

[Anansiil]

I almost pity her, being that she was tricked into the current deal structure... BUT she is trying to cheat, and doing so would harm Durkon... so carry on? :P

[Ruck]

Thor's exact words:

"An excellent choice. I'm sure each of those dwarf souls will enjoy their new afterlife in their respective god's domain." [sic, because the plural pronoun means it should be "respective gods' domains."]


No, I'm pretty sure they only each get to go to one god's domain.
Since "each" is singular, I think we can assume "their" is singular as well.

[Kereminde]

You have obviously missed the larger message that the Dwarven afterlife process is patently, even monstrously, unfair.

And for bonus points, unfair in multiple fashions - it's currently weighted against Hel getting power due to The Bet. It's unfair to the dwarves since The Bet now drives them to die in honor - not just have lived an honorable life, but died in honorable combat. It's unfair this expectation leads dwarves to be more prone to what we would call "suicidal attacks" as age goes on, no matter their disposition before then. A whole life of honorable conduct may mean nothing if they happen to choke on some mead or slip and fall in a bad way. Raising the dead, an option thanks to the D&D magic system, is unthinkable if the person died with honor - no matter how needed they may be in the living world.

I'd say it's monstrously unfair compared to others, but keep in mind we haven't seen enough to really know - aside from Roy's "entrance exam". For all we know all the afterlife procedures could be terrible.

[Doug Lampert]

No. Dying honorably grants them the same process as everyone else, not Valhalla. They'll go to Valhalla only if that happens to be the afterlife that matches their alignment and/or religion.

Specifically, the dwarf's system is unfair (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?442359-Why-aren-t-95-of-dwarven-souls-going-to-Hel-anyway&p=19828724&highlight=Unfair#post19828724).

There's no, die honorably and go to a good place.

It's just, die dishonoraby and go to a bad place no matter what the rest of your life was like. Die honorably, and THEN you get the same deal as everyone else. It is unfair, unjust, and presented as such.

[endiku]

Running away from a fight that you have no chance to win does NOT deserve eternal damnation!

It might, if "stand and die with honor" was something you really believed in...betraying/reneging on core beliefs when tested is a pretty traditional indication of moral failure in every religious system that I am familiar with...

[Giggling Ghast]

I almost pity her, being that she was tricked into the current deal structure... BUT she is trying to cheat, and doing so would harm Durkon... so carry on? :P

I wouldn't. She's a pretty awful god now, and I don't imagine she was much nicer when she was way more powerful.

[Worldsong]

Not of fan of this tactic :(

Seriously; the purpose of honor and an afterlife is to reward desirable and punish undesirable behavior during life, so here we are undermining that system and rewarding cowards and the dishonorable.

Are we suggesting that the ends justify the means?

Or is it just "gosh darn it those wacky chaotic gods"

This doesn't feel consistent with the larger message.

As Roy's time as being dead showed, all souls get judged and sorted. The Bet is a ridiculous system slapped on top of the normal judgement system which dooms any dwarven soul which didn't die honourablu (independent of how honourably they lived most of their lives) to a horrible afterlife.

I think you might have bought too much into the whole 'die with honour' thing and overlooked the fact that the Bet actually robs dwarves of their fair judgement by judging them solely on a single arbitrary trait. I'm calling it arbitrary because it's been shown that dying from accidents and diseases does not count as an honourable death, meaning a dwarf can end up in Hel's domain due to circumstances completely unrelated to how they lived.

If those souls which Thor is now freeing don't deserve a good afterlife they'll be sorted into something less pleasant. However they will be sorted using the actual judgement system, the one which looks at their entire being rather than 'did this dwarf die with a weapon in hand' (yes there's ways to die honourably without weapon in hand but it's a representation of how ridiculous the Bet is).

This isn't "The ends justify the means", nor is it "Those wacky chaotic gods". It's "We've got an opportunity to let as many dwarven souls go to their rightful afterlife as possible, regardless of whether it's a good or a bad afterlife. And we get to interfere with Hel trying to cheat in the process." Both the ends and the means are good, and it's neither random nor silly (although it's admittedly hilarious).

Throughout the entirety of the comic, whenever the Bet was brought up and what it means for dwarves after their soul, it's been at best depicted as strange and harsh and at worst as abominably unfair. I don't see how Thor and Loki working together against an unfair system and having it actually work is inconsistent with the rest of the comic.


It might, if "stand and die with honor" was something you really believed in...betraying/reneging on core beliefs when tested is a pretty traditional indication of moral failure in every religious system that I am familiar with...

1. Last I checked historical data suggests that any culture with an honour system employed such a system because life was pretty ****ty so the best they could do was at least encourage you to die well.

2. That's an argument for religions being ****ty, not the Bet being a good thing.

[Schroeswald]

It might, if "stand and die with honor" was something you really believed in...betraying/reneging on core beliefs when tested is a pretty traditional indication of moral failure in every religious system that I am familiar with...

But we don't know his specific core beliefs, but running away from a battle doesn't deserve being doomed to Hel (Durkon ran away/retreated quite a bit, the difference between whatshisname and him is that Durkon was better at doing it).

[Peelee]

No, it doesn't? That's the same as dying of a wound received in battle in my book.

Cool motive, still supernatural disease. Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for Thor there (hush, Aussies), but if a being of pure Law and Neutrality was judging I'd be shocked if that soul went to Thor.

[Ron Miel]

Why does Hel only get one move in your scenario? Also, how would Thor kill the vampires? Hard for lightning to hit them when they're underground. Also, all the other gods need to do is kill Thor's dwarves; doesn't matter if a priest of Tyr dies and goes to Tyr if the world ends anyway. Tyr ain't got clerics in that fight, so Thor would be doing useless actions by going after that priest (even under the unnecessary "I can kill yours back" rule you want followed).


you think a God would have any difficulty attacking a mortal? or that Thor can only make lightning apear from the sky?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1146.html

There's a bunch of dumb god laws preventing gods from playing in the sandbox.

Or to put it another way, gods aren't allowed to intervene directly. They have their own clerics, heroes and favored souls in the world to act on the gods' behalf.

That's why Hel can't act openly attacking Durkon.

[endiku]

1. Last I checked historical data suggests that any culture with an honour system employed such a system because life was pretty ****ty so the best they could do was at least encourage you to die well.

2. That's an argument for religions being ****ty, not the Bet being a good thing.

I was with you right up until this bit. My argument isn't for or against an honor system - it is simply that if you accept/believe/embrace said honour system - betraying it when the rubber hits the road is a moral failure and being consigned to Hel an entirely fair judgement.

But it is entirely correct as pointed out by you and others that we don't know if these two specific individuals embraced the system. I suspect that somewhere in the previous year (or file cabinet) there may be dwarves who fully embraced the system and then failed to be true to that system when tested.

To put it another way: Consider Hilgya as the perfect contra-example - she rejected the unfair system and should not go to Hel regardless of the manner of her death, but a hypothetical dwarf embraced the system and believed fully in the importance of an honorable death, then failed to die honorably, they should go to Hel, because they betrayed their own beliefs.

[Ron Miel]

Look, one of the released Dwarf souls has red hair and a ponytail. Could it be Haley's mother?


(ducks and runs)

[ti'esar]

I love you, Thor. :smallbiggrin:

[Grey Watcher]

I wonder how many other deities are lined up outside Hel's door having just now decided to review old cases.

Face it Hel, your opposition isn't nearly as stupid as you so desperately want to believe.

Also, I love that, what was at one point a Wacky Thor cutaway gag is suddenly important to the plot.

[b_jonas]

Thor's tactics remind me of Casey & Andy strip #40, in which all of Casey's housemates abuse how he's too busy with mad science to pay attention to what they're asking him (http://www.galactanet.com/comic/view.php?strip=40).

[Worldsong]

I was with you right up until this bit. My argument isn't for or against an honor system - it is simply that if you accept/believe/embrace said honour system - betraying it when the rubber hits the road is a moral failure and being consigned to Hel an entirely fair judgement.

But it is entirely correct as pointed out by you and others that we don't know if these two specific individuals embraced the system. I suspect that somewhere in the previous year (or file cabinet) there may be dwarves who fully embraced the system and then failed to be true to that system when tested.

To put it another way: Consider Hilgya as the perfect contra-example - she rejected the unfair system and should not go to Hel regardless of the manner of her death, but a hypothetical dwarf embraced the system and believed fully in the importance of an honorable death, then failed to die honorably, they should go to Hel, because they betrayed their own beliefs.

Someone who genuinely believes in the importance of dying with honour would have that be reflected in their judgement using the normal system. The Bet tries to enforce this on everyone regardless of whether they themselves or their culture endorses it, so abusing loopholes to make a mess of the Bet still does not go against the actual value of honour.

Especially since Thor isn't saying those dwarves are actually honourable and should go to a good afterlife. He's just freeing them from the restrictions from the Bet using the loopholes implemented into the Bet so they can be judged properly. It's entirely possible that some of those dwarves he's freeing would be judged as dishonourable in the normal judgement system, and be placed in an unpleasant afterlife as result of that. But at least that way they'll have been judged fairly.

[Doug Lampert]

I was with you right up until this bit. My argument isn't for or against an honor system - it is simply that if you accept/believe/embrace said honour system - betraying it when the rubber hits the road is a moral failure and being consigned to Hel an entirely fair judgement.

But it is entirely correct as pointed out by you and others that we don't know if these two specific individuals embraced the system. I suspect that somewhere in the previous year (or file cabinet) there may be dwarves who fully embraced the system and then failed to be true to that system when tested.

To put it another way: Consider Hilgya as the perfect contra-example - she rejected the unfair system and should not go to Hel regardless of the manner of her death, but a hypothetical dwarf embraced the system and believed fully in the importance of an honorable death, then failed to die honorably, they should go to Hel, because they betrayed their own beliefs.
Hilgya suffers the delusion that she won't go to hell regardless of the manner of her death.

Other than the deluded ravings of a character shown in multiple scenes to BE deluded, do you have any reason whatsoever to think that this will work?

We've seen arguments over souls, this "loophole" is never mentioned by anyone else, even when people are looking for loopholes.

Again, the system is explicitly unfair, we've seen the scene where it was set up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html), note the COMPLETE lack of any such loophole. The ability to die with honor and get out of Hel IS THE LOOPHOLE.

[Shoelessgdowar]

It seemed pretty clear if she ignored them, then she'd be defaulting on Thor's claim to the soul.

Hel gets all souls, except for those that die honorably.

Thor (and Loki and other deities apparently) can challenge Hel's claim on a soul after death. Apparently there's no expiration date/statue of limitations on that claim either.

Theoretically, it implies if Hel were to just completely ignore his claims, Thor could claim EVERY Dwarven soul that's ever died and he could free them all. Hence she has to at least acknowledge his claims and not just go about her business while he stands there and claims souls.

. . .that's at least my reading of the situation.


hel is gonna find herself so drained of souls after all this that she's not going to be able to act, that's my take.


I think it's simpler than that: Thor is right there, watching her. If she tries to do something while he's there, he will see her do it, and can act immediately against her.

So long as there's a God there watching her, she can't "sneak" in any actions


Not of fan of this tactic :(

Seriously; the purpose of honor and an afterlife is to reward desirable and punish undesirable behavior during life, so here we are undermining that system and rewarding cowards and the dishonorable.

Are we suggesting that the ends justify the means?

Or is it just "gosh darn it those wacky chaotic gods"

This doesn't feel consistent with the larger message.

While this is partly about them being in the room stops her from interfering, it is more about a "Plan P"... P for Precedent. Every Soul Hel relinquished claim on without arguments constitutes precedence for more "Dishonorable" Deaths (like dying to the World being reset) as not being considered "Dishonorable", meaning every "Battling their Personal Insecurities" and "Demonstrating a Courageous Tactical Withdrawal" just became honorable, along with with all of the other excused ones Thor just won (which may or may not include the huge amount of files Loki had in tow), which creates more room for interpretation of "Honorable" Deaths which can be used to win the bet and save a finite number of unknown far greater than 2 souls from anything upto and including the remaking of existence (again) if somehow the vote were to go in Hel's favor.

[Grey Watcher]

The Noted Expert seems familiar - looks a lot like one of the Ettin Heads in How The Paladin Got His Scar.

Given the state that fellow was in last we saw him, I highly doubt it. I think it's just the Balding-Goatee-Big Glasses combo is similar.

My first thought was it might be the same psychology expert from here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html), but the skin color doesn't look like a match to me.

[thorr-kan]

So have I, and Miles Naismith is only slightly less awesome than Miles Vorkosigan. Mind you, this doesn't bring to mind "The Vor Game" for me - it brings to mind the climax of "A Civil Campaign", which was also proving Ivan was really capable in his own way.

Also, Loki brought the Filing Cabinet of Holding, I see.
Fair comparison.

And a new magic item to design!

[KorvinStarmast]

Three pages of people arguing about fake religion, pro and con thereof. OK.
Given the state that fellow was in last we saw him, I highly doubt it. I think it's just the Balding-Goatee-Big Glasses combo is similar. OK, I'll revise my take on that.

Oh, yeah: Loki. For the Win. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Given the state that fellow was in last we saw him, I highly doubt it. I think it's just the Balding-Goatee-Big Glasses combo is similar.


The guy we is is also not an Ettin - but yes, that was the point - the shape of the hair fringe + the goatee + the glasses made me wonder if that particular "head" is one the Giant is reusing here, but for a different character - a human.

EDIT - on re-looking at the book - the beard is different enough (and the "fringed hair" was on the other head, rather than the bearded, bespectacled one) that it's very clearly not a straight re-use.

[thorr-kan]

That line makes me laugh every time.

Poor Hulk, having the rules changed on him like that
Honestly...he MAAAYBEEE...coulda taken Surtur.

But that would have been BAD. Maybe next time.

[JumboWheat01]

This is a delicious plan Loki and Thor are using.

[endiku]

Hilgya suffers the delusion that she won't go to hell regardless of the manner of her death.

Other than the deluded ravings of a character shown in multiple scenes to BE deluded, do you have any reason whatsoever to think that this will work?

We've seen arguments over souls, this "loophole" is never mentioned by anyone else, even when people are looking for loopholes.

Again, the system is explicitly unfair, we've seen the scene where it was set up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html), note the COMPLETE lack of any such loophole. The ability to die with honor and get out of Hel IS THE LOOPHOLE.

You're misunderstanding my argument - sorry I must be bad at this ;-)

I don't think anything will work - I'm not at all imagining or stating that Hilgya is getting any benefit out of her belief system.

What I'm postulating (badly I guess) is that IF there was a hypothetical dwarf in the previous year (or file cabinet) who wholeheartedly and righteously believed with his/her whole heart and soul that to die with honor was in fact the most important thing - and then said hypothetical dwarf failed to die honorably - then they would be correctly judged to have been a moral failure and going to Hel would be an appropriate judgement.

When I first read the strip I imagined (without cause perhaps) that Regin Greenhammer might be such a dwarf, and that by making a funny but patently absurd argument to release him, it felt to me that Thor was in fact subverting more than just the bet.

Mainly wanted to say - to me this one felt a little off....

[Forikroder]

im starting to think that the reason Thor only asked for souls from the last year is because someone specific died within that year and went to hel, Thor was only pretending to waste her time because the real goal was to get that one soul and then back off and let Loki handle the real diversion

[Xenocide586]

Are there any repercussions on Hell if she allows all of the souls to leave her domain? Could a significant loss in souls impact her divine rank?

[Leftour]

Regin is one lucky dwarf. Proof that cowards thrive in times of crisis. Also, love his expression.

[schmunzel]

Hmm - I can see your point I guess - if you assume that the two examples were otherwise good - I'm not getting that from the comic.

The larger "message" I mean is that while the system may suck as implemented - honor is nevertheless important - Thor's claiming that "running away was justifiable in this case" doesn't sound very honorable in the larger sense - not just the manner of death sense.

he might have run away to alert the garrison - or the trader travelling in the direction of the threat - or to fetch help - or to come back and fight at another time - or to ...

While cowardice might be horrible and detestable and stuff there are situations were running is justifyable.
Just ask the Order :P

sch

[Particle_Man]

Well this scheme definitely rescues some souls (possibly with the exception of those that would have gone to Hel's domain anyhow if there had never been The Bet), and it could reduce Hel's power a lot, and it could even possibly trick her to not be able to claim the souls of all the currently living dwarves if the world is destroyed (although that remains to be seen - I wouldn't put it past Loki's abilities though).

That said, Hel's vote has already been cast and there are "no take backs" on that vote even if she no longer profits from or wants to destroy the world. So I don't see how the Thor/Loki team up saves the world from destruction, per se. That task still rests with Durkon and his family.

[Rogar Demonblud]

They're keeping Hel from interfering directly by just killing everyone on Team Dwarf.

[Douglas]

>0. That's all it needs to be.

Also, no. If one God directly interferes with the world and another God does in kind, that doesn't even things out for all the other gods. They got an advantage over Tyr, for example, who got zero direct interferences. Think he'd let that slide? I don't.
Judging by this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html), it actually does - the rules appear to include a clause that a) retaliation in kind is allowed, and b) whoever intervened first gets penalized by the rest of the pantheon.

[schmunzel]

assuming it was a fight they couldnt win, maybe he ran as soon as the orcs attacked, got shot for dessertion by his captain, and then the dwarves cleaned up the orcs

You need to be a pretty bad cook to be shot for your desserts.

And then for all I care you deserved it.

Apart from that I ask myself how the dwarves cleaned up the orcs if it was a fight they could not win ??

sch

[Shoelessgdowar]

Well this scheme definitely rescues some souls (possibly with the exception of those that would have gone to Hel's domain anyhow if there had never been The Bet), and it could reduce Hel's power a lot, and it could even possibly trick her to not be able to claim the souls of all the currently living dwarves if the world is destroyed (although that remains to be seen - I wouldn't put it past Loki's abilities though).

That said, Hel's vote has already been cast and there are "no take backs" on that vote even if she no longer profits from or wants to destroy the world. So I don't see how the Thor/Loki team up saves the world from destruction, per se. That task still rests with Durkon and his family.

You are correct, this plan has nothing directly to do with saving the World. It does indirectly help as it prevents Hel from secretly directly interfering (as she was just about to do), but it more importantly is about saving souls if the plan to save the world falls through.

Loki has plans within plans, and this is part of his win the bet plans, as well as his prevent Hel from cheating plans, teach Hel a lesson plans, use Thor for chaos and undermining laws plans, and spread the hatred of paperwork plans (just to name a few).

-----------

In the spirit of your name, and the fact Plan rhymes with Man... I edit to adds this Parody


Hel has a plan, Hel has a plan
Hel has a plan to get every soul she can
Is it a dwarf, or is it a vamp, Did Roy even know it was in his camp
Does Throg remain technically the champ
Hel has a Plan

Loki's Plan, Loki's Plan
Loki's Plan foils Hel's dumb plan
The get in a fight, Loki wins
Loki's Plan

Thor's Plan, Thor's Plan
To save the entire universe man
He's got a Dwarf with hammer Trick
A Member of the Order of the Stick
A group who is sort of thick
Thor's plan

Dark One's Plan, Dark One's Plan
Move the gate to another land
Meet the Snarl, Sounds real lame
Dark One's Plan

Loki's Plan, Plans with Plan
Loki's Plan ruins the Dark One's Plan
They get fight, Loki wins
Loki's Plans.

[woweedd]

Ha-ha-ha! Thor distracting Hel, and saving countless Dwarves from Hel's clutches at the same time, thus presumably weakening her? I think I might convert, because THAT is freaking awesome.

[schmunzel]

Thor's tactics remind me of Casey & Andy strip #40, in which all of Casey's housemates abuse how he's too busy with mad science to pay attention to what they're asking him (http://www.galactanet.com/comic/view.php?strip=40).

Casey and Andy for the win
/me CHEERS!!!

sch

[dtilque]

Shirley, we are all RedCloak's niece.

Except for those who are Fryon's son. And don't call me Surely.

[schmunzel]

im starting to think that the reason Thor only asked for souls from the last year is because someone specific died within that year and went to hel, Thor was only pretending to waste her time because the real goal was to get that one soul and then back off and let Loki handle the real diversion

Thor asked for souls from last year so that it would be funny if Loki came in and asked for souls of the past hundred years.
It is called rule of funny and serves the stated intent of entertaining us.

sch

[Peelee]

Shirley, we are all RedCloak's niece.

Your username says Doug Lampert, but your words say Ken M (http://i.imgur.com/iSZukcj.png).

[Windscion]

Okay, I've been thinking, and I think I understand something now. Specifically, why does a God who challenges a soul's disposition get to enter Hel's domain uninvited? And then I realized: the souls go to her by default. If the judgement were made beforehand by some impartial mediator, there would be no excuse for trespassing.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Okay, I've been thinking, and I think I understand something now. Specifically, why does a God who challenges a soul's disposition get to enter Hel's domain uninvited? And then I realized: the souls go to her by default. If the judgement were made beforehand by some impartial mediator, there would be no excuse for trespassing.

If the judgement was made beforehand by an impartial mediator she would have nearly no souls, as no one who is impartial exists that would be acceptable to Hel, Thor, or Loki, and Hel would have next to no chance of finding someone partial to her... only the worst of the worst stagnant bums or monstrous cowards would be hers.

[warmachine]

Next time, have an adjudication process with an independent adjudicator at set times so people can't barge in repeating arguments over definitions and contract terms. Mind you, I am impressed she knows the deaths of those two souls.

[Particle_Man]

-----------

In the spirit of your name, and the fact Plan rhymes with Man... I edit to adds this Parody


Hel has a plan, Hel has a plan
Hel has a plan to get every soul she can
Is it a dwarf, or is it a vamp, Did Roy even know it was in his camp
Does Throg remain technically the champ
Hel has a Plan

Loki's Plan, Loki's Plan
Loki's Plan foils Hel's dumb plan
The get in a fight, Loki wins
Loki's Plan

Thor's Plan, Thor's Plan
To save the entire universe man
He's got a Dwarf with hammer Trick
A Member of the Order of the Stick
A group who is sort of thick
Thor's plan

Dark One's Plan, Dark One's Plan
Move the gate to another land
Meet the Snarl, Sounds real lame
Dark One's Plan

Loki's Plan, Plans with Plan
Loki's Plan ruins the Dark One's Plan
They get fight, Loki wins
Loki's Plans.

Kudos! A thing of beauty!

[Reo]

I barely log into this forum, but I had to do so to say:

This update is great!

[Schroeswald]

Hilgya suffers the delusion that she won't go to hell regardless of the manner of her death.

Other than the deluded ravings of a character shown in multiple scenes to BE deluded, do you have any reason whatsoever to think that this will work?

We've seen arguments over souls, this "loophole" is never mentioned by anyone else, even when people are looking for loopholes.

Again, the system is explicitly unfair, we've seen the scene where it was set up, note the COMPLETE lack of any such loophole. The ability to die with honor and get out of Hel IS THE LOOPHOLE.

Loki set up this entire scenario, if he thought this would hurt him (and sending people who don't die honorably automatically to Hel hurts him, because people who go to him aren't usually honorable) he wouldn't set this up. We don't really know what he wanted from it, but I think Hilgya will go to him, she's his cleric and so he most likely set this up to make dwarves like her go to him (because doing this as a prank on Thor wouldn't explain how it helps him).

[Thecommander236]

Get rekt, Hel.

[Throknor]

That said, Hel's vote has already been cast and there are "no take backs" on that vote even if she no longer profits from or wants to destroy the world. So I don't see how the Thor/Loki team up saves the world from destruction, per se. That task still rests with Durkon and his family.

She literally states she intends to kill Durkon while the other gods are distracted from watching her. By being in visual contact with her they prevent this. Which allows Durkon and his family to continue.

Hence "Divine Diversion" applies to the gods supposedly being distracted by Dvalin, but also Thor and Loki distracting Hel.

[gatemansgc]

Also, Loki brought the Filing Cabinet of Holding, I see.

XD i love it!

just imagine how many dwarf souls are being saved!

[Kantaki]

I just realized Hel's repeating the same mistake that led to her agreeing to the bet in the first place.:smallamused:
She's too focused on the big price, utterly discarding smaller scale wins.

First she gives up the right to have priests- basically PR-people and recruiters for her cause- for default dominion over the dwarves, and now she gives up the souls that got her- uncontested -for the chance to get all living dwarves if the world goes badaboom.

Even better, when things inevitably blow up in her face she blames everyone else.
And immediately does it again.:smallsigh:

:smallconfused:Huh. Would Hinjo fall for pulling an Azurite Prince scam?:smallconfused:
I mean it would be fighting evil.:smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[mjasghar]

Ummm
I wonder
Will hel be so distracted she just gives up any soul they ask for
And as a result *Grontor and all the dwarven vampires are resurrected or suffer true death as the imprisoned soul is released

[Grey Watcher]

Man, Hel is really putting her blinders on. She just established precedent for a whole year's worth of deaths to be classified as "honorable."

"Bobby Exampleshield clearly died with honor!"

"He did not! He was fleeing a kobold raiding party and got shot in the back!"

"The same thing happened to Regin Greenhammer, but you agreed that was honorable. Are you seriously trying to contend that an arrow shot by an orc is somehow materially different from one shot by a kobold?"

Even if she wises up to the scam before Loki says another word, just how many future Dedications did she just cost herself? (Yes, she's assuming she's going to triumph here, but she evidently hasn't heard the mortal proverb regarding eggs and baskets.)

[mjasghar]

Not of fan of this tactic :(

Seriously; the purpose of honor and an afterlife is to reward desirable and punish undesirable behavior during life, so here we are undermining that system and rewarding cowards and the dishonorable.

Are we suggesting that the ends justify the means?

Or is it just "gosh darn it those wacky chaotic gods"

This doesn't feel consistent with the larger message.

The problem with the system is it depends on how dwarves die not how they live
So a moment of minor weakness at death damns them despite centuries of honour

[Grey Watcher]

Ummm
I wonder
Will hel be so distracted she just gives up any soul they ask for
And as a result *Grontor and all the dwarven vampires are resurrected or suffer true death as the imprisoned soul is released

Becoming a vampire seems to be a separate process and has nothing to do with the The Bet. Durkon died with honor (as evidenced that he got offered the Valhalla retirement package (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1136.html)), but that question was rendered (temporarily) moot by the vampirism, which prevents the soul from passing on to any afterlife.

[Peelee]

Ummm
I wonder
Will hel be so distracted she just gives up any soul they ask for
And as a result *Grontor and all the dwarven vampires are resurrected or suffer true death as the imprisoned soul is released

No, since she doesn't have those souls. They are still trapped in their corpses. When the vamp is destroyed, the soul goes to its proper place. Durkon's soul was never Hel's, it was just shanghied on the way to Valhalla.

ETS: Grey Watch'd!

[Fyraltari]

Ummm
I wonder
Will hel be so distracted she just gives up any soul they ask for
And as a result *Grontor and all the dwarven vampires are resurrected or suffer true death as the imprisoned soul is released

She can't realease souls she doesn't have. Gontor's soul is being held by Gontor* at the moment, same with every other vampire. Note how Durkon had to wait until Durkon*'s death to move to his afterlife.

EDIT: Screw this, I'm going to bed.

[hroþila]

I think it's pretty obvious that Thor has been subverting the system and cheating Hel for a looong time. The mummy rot incident might not be persuasive on its own, but we've seen Thor argue that dying from infection after fighting a tree counts as honorable death in combat, even though we know Thor thinks the dwarves are loonies for their beliefs about trees. And if that wasn't enough, we know that dying of alcohol-related illnesses counts as honorable. I mean.

Even though Hel was busy here and she had a good reason to want to get rid of Thor ASAP, I think we just saw a glimpse of how Thor managed to subvert the system to such an extent. She's not strong-willed enough.

[dtilque]

Mind you, I am impressed she knows the deaths of those two souls.

Divine memory. Just like Thor can remember billions of prior worlds and the people/beings in them.

[Peelee]

Also, color me completely wrong on the "I don't think any gods will be looking in on the vote."

[zimmerwald1915]

So, takeaway is, Thor could have contested these dwarves' souls, but chose not to. Either because he felt it was a futile exercise not worth his time, or because he deliberately sacrificed them in order to have a chip in a situation like this. Either way, not a good look.

[jindra34]

And here we see Loki at his mythological best; saving the other deities of his pantheon from their own agreements by using the letter and/or spirit of those agreements as a razor sharp edge.

[The_Weirdo]

So, takeaway is, Thor could have done contested these dwarves' souls, but chose not to. Either because he felt it was a futile exercise not worth his time, or because he deliberately sacrificed them in order to have a chip in a situation like this. Either way, not a good look.

A more generous interpretation would claim that it was futile and that, now, it is not. He didn't foresee the usefulness of that, but now it presents itself in the form of Hel being completely willing to relinquish them all to him, just so she can get to cheat the system by causing a heart attack.

But, of course, the simple fact that the bet happened in the first place makes it very clear how little value the dwarves have to the gods.

On a side note...

"Hi, Pumpkin!" :smallbiggrin:

[Schroeswald]

So, takeaway is, Thor could have done contested these dwarves' souls, but chose not to. Either because he felt it was a futile exercise not worth his time, or because he deliberately sacrificed them in order to have a chip in a situation like this. Either way, not a good look.

No? He's clearly stretching the idea of "honor" to a ridiculous extent, what he is currently doing is twofold, slowing down Hel by distracting her, and saving the souls of these dwarves from certain torture. Normally Hel wouldn't give in because dying of pneumonia while hiding a sheet isn't honorable by any stretch of the term, he's using helping the souls of current dwarves to help the souls of dead, which is a great look on him.

EDIT: Ninja'd by The_Wierdo

[Peelee]

So, takeaway is, Thor could have done contested these dwarves' souls, but chose not to. Either because he felt it was a futile exercise not worth his time, or because he deliberately sacrificed them in order to have a chip in a situation like this. Either way, not a good look.

Option 3: taking obvious loser cases that can't be argued on their merits and slipping them in when he knows they'll get rubberstamped. Totally a good look.

[zimmerwald1915]

No? He's clearly stretching the idea of "honor" to a ridiculous extent, what he is currently doing is twofold, slowing down Hel by distracting her, and saving the souls of these dwarves from certain torture. Normally Hel wouldn't give in because dying of pneumonia while hiding a sheet isn't honorable by any stretch of the term, he's using helping the souls of current dwarves to help the souls of dead, which is a great look on him.

EDIT: Ninja'd by The_Wierdo
So again, it's acceptable to only contest the souls he thinks he can save? Why?

(TFW a poster agrees with The_Wierdo over oneself.)

[zimmerwald1915]

Option 3: taking obvious loser cases that can't be argued on their merits and slipping them in when he knows they'll get rubberstamped. Totally a good look.
Who is Thor to judge when a case can be argued on the merits? What criteria does he use? Personal convenience for himself? Why is that more valuable than the concerned dwarf's soul?

[The_Weirdo]

So again, it's acceptable to only contest the souls he thinks he can save? Why?

(TFW a poster agrees with The_Wierdo over oneself.)

Hey, I happened to make a reasonable point there. And I did point out that the gods do not value dwarves on account of how they behave WRT the bet.

Besides, you've agreed with me in several aspects, at several times, on several matters.

As for it being acceptable to only contest the souls he thinks he can save, you may have a point there...

[zimmerwald1915]

Besides, you've agreed with me in several aspects, at several times, on several matters.
Yeah, but hardly anyone else ever did :smallfrown:

[The_Weirdo]

Yeah, but hardly anyone else ever did :smallfrown:

Well, that's not our flaw, now is it? :smallbiggrin:

[MADCrab]

Who is Thor to judge when a case can be argued on the merits? What criteria does he use? Personal convenience for himself? Why is that more valuable than the concerned dwarf's soul?

... seriously?
Thor has been shown to argue on the flimsiest of excuses several times. Sometimes there's just absolutely no way you're going to win, and you just give the other side more ammo to reject you ALL the time.

Hell, that's not even looking at the language here that suggests that he only gets one try at disputing a soul's destination, which suggests holding on to the lost causes until some miraculous circumstances occur that let you press an advantage - like the other side being desperate to get rid of you.

Everything he's done here has been capital G Good, and you're complaining that he's not doing it right.

[The_Weirdo]

... seriously?
Thor has been shown to argue on the flimsiest of excuses several times. Sometimes there's just absolutely no way you're going to win, and you just give the other side more ammo to reject you ALL the time.

Hell, that's not even looking at the language here that suggests that he only gets one try at disputing a soul's destination, which suggests holding on to the lost causes until some miraculous circumstances occur that let you press an advantage - like the other side being desperate to get rid of you.

Everything he's done here has been capital G Good, and you're complaining that he's not doing it right.

Well, he did allow the bet in the first place.

[MADCrab]

Well, he did allow the bet in the first place.

Not currently relevant to discussion, since Zimmer has only been talking about Thor "abandoning" some souls. Besides, that's still unexplained backstory.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, he did allow the bet in the first place.

He was drunk at the time.

[The_Weirdo]

He was drunk at the time.

It's Thor's fault for D.U.I.

(Deitifying under the influence)

[zimmerwald1915]

What's clear is that Thor is using these souls as instrumentalities toward some other goal, rather than arguing for them because they have inherent worth. This is consistent with both his portrayal specifically and the gods' generally.

[The_Weirdo]

What's clear is that Thor is using these souls as instrumentalities toward some other goal, rather than arguing for them because they have inherent worth. This is consistent with both his portrayal specifically and the gods' generally.

May I posit a scenario where one can only argue for a given soul once and, thus, this is the one time in which he could do it that would see both Hel distracted and Hel ceding the souls? Is that scenario not decently likely?

[Shoelessgdowar]

Not currently relevant to discussion, since Zimmer has only been talking about Thor "abandoning" some souls. Besides, that's still unexplained backstory.


Who is Thor to judge when a case can be argued on the merits? What criteria does he use? Personal convenience for himself? Why is that more valuable than the concerned dwarf's soul?

He is the Public Defender, prioritising the easy to win and existing precedence cases allows him to build momentum, create further precedence, and postpone hopeless cases until moments of leverage like this where he can work out deals that set even further precedence and save cases he knows he would otherwise lose.

[whiteflash]

What's clear is that Thor is using these souls as instrumentalities toward some other goal, rather than arguing for them because they have inherent worth. This is consistent with both his portrayal specifically and the gods' generally.

I'm not sure that is clear.

I think he wanted to save them earlier, but couldn't. Now the situation is that he can save them. I'm not saying it's irrelevant to him that doing so is in his best interests, but I don't think his own best interests are his only motivation here.

As for his own specific portrayal, we see Thor going to bat for dwarven souls under some pretty flimsy reasoning, and hesitating to order Durkon back into danger even though he knows he has every right to as his deity. You can argue that the very existence of the bet is a black mark on his record, but in his defense, the bet was Loki's idea, and Thor was smashed at the time. I think his record is a pretty good one, even if I can't say as much for the other gods.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

What's clear is that Thor is using these souls as instrumentalities toward some other goal, rather than arguing for them because they have inherent worth. This is consistent with both his portrayal specifically and the gods' generally.

Well, most other gods have grown cynical to the value of mortal lives anyway, so it's good on Thor (And Loki) for at least trying to save the world and fix the bet while the other gods just didn't want to rock the boat.

There are multiple goals that doing it this way work towards- one being the problem with the Snarl and Gates. Why have all existence continue going the way it has been for all eternity with no Dark One to help patch? This will only lead to more suffering of more mortals- not just dwarfs- as long as they don't have a new Quiddity.

Doing it this way also might pressure Hel into rescinding the bet altogether, thus causing every dwarf in the world to never have to suffer the way the others have.

The third, obviously, being distracting an evil goddess from insta-gibbing your priest, keeping him from stopping her grand plan once and for all. This, being the least good of these goals, is the one that people have targeted as being a piece of evidence for Thor being "Not Good".

In saving every dwarf whose soul she's imprisoned and tormented for a finite amount of time, they will all be given infinite happy times- if they took the "live with honor" clause literally and lived their lives lawful good.

The dwarfs that did not live lawful good, as probably some of the dwarfs that she just released are, are still eager to leave her, so all in all it's a good thing that Thor has done this.

EDIT: Also, Hel's plan includes using her newfound power to cause the next world to send ALL northern souls to her, no matter the race or honor. So this will definitely cause much less suffering in the long run, even if the thing with TDO falls through.

[zimmerwald1915]

He is the Public Defender, prioritising the easy to win and existing precedence cases allows him to build momentum, create further precedence, and postpone hopeless cases until moments of leverage like this where he can work out deals that set even further precedence and save cases he knows he would otherwise lose.
PD offices don't actually have that kind of discretion.

[Worldsong]

So, takeaway is, Thor could have contested these dwarves' souls, but chose not to. Either because he felt it was a futile exercise not worth his time, or because he deliberately sacrificed them in order to have a chip in a situation like this. Either way, not a good look.

Well, I mean, if you take the most negative view then yes. However the most negative view has the tendency of not being very reliable and making literally everything look bad.

The more moderate view suggests that Thor realized that if he tried to argue for those dwarves under normal circumstances he would have failed, and given his phrasing there's enough implication to assume that once a soul has been judged it's at best a hassle to reopen the case.

Therefore Thor decided to leave those souls uncontested until a later date when Hel would be preoccupied with something else, thus allowing him to free those souls which realistically speaking could not be considered honourable from an eternity of suffering. This means that while he did allow them to suffer for at most a century, at least their eternity (or however long it takes for their souls to be recycled/reincarnated) has been saved. While one might argue that he allowed them to suffer the counter to that would be that from Thor's perspective he had the choice between trying to save them immediately and almost certainly condemning them to an eternity in Hel's care, or delay their case until such a moment where the chances of him succeeding have risen drastically enough for it to be worth trying. To put it in other terms, he could choice between definitely letting them suffer for some time and then most likely saving them afterwards, and risking it all and most likely losing it all.

And yes it is quite clear that he's also using this opportunity to get in the way of Hel trying to cheat, but I believe that is an ancient and most mysterious technique called achieving multiple objectives at the same time. It's a secret art passed down for generations which increases once's efficiency tremendously by having one move result in victory on more than one front. It is taught in the hidden mountains of Uru'Taktak, to promising disciples who appear to have the unique gift of being able to act simultaneously for themselves, for others, and on multiple levels at the same time.

I mean the alternative is that the moment someone has an objective which could be considered not completely and absolutely and instinctively altruistic it's completely heinous and all other motivations are automatically voided with no chance of a repeal, but what are the odds of that.

[jwhouk]

Epic win. This is why Thor is "The God".

And Loki wandering in with that filing cabinet is just the ultimate punchline.

[Squire Doodad]

The larger message is "the dwarves got a raw deal." Humans in the comic openly gape at how it affected their society. "Honor" for Dwarves means not living to old age and dying peacefully. I don't see that as undesirable behavior, I see that as arbitrary standards. Literally the first example we see in this strip is a woman who died of pneumonia. How dare she, apparently.

To say nothing of how it isn't a subtitute for the normal afterlife, but rather an additional barrier. And also quite importantly to say nothing of how that can result in differing afterlives for people on the border by generating lots of grey areas. If you have a childhood friend whose father is going to die from old age soon (thus, not honor) and your friend can't bear the idea of attacking his father to make it be with honor, then wouldn't it be good to (probably after giving your friend a heads up/after they've said their goodbye and such) challenge their father to a duel, thus killing them "with honor" and giving them a chance for a good afterlife. On the other hand, arranging to kill someone's dad in a duel with false pretenses is kind of a bad thing to do. This means in turn that, depending on the very fine points of the scenario, someone who is "borderline LG/NG" could be pushed either way by trying to do something that is good, but also slightly killing an armed but otherwise harmless octogenarian.

Basically its a very raw deal like you said and obstructs dwarves from having proper access to the afterlife as opposed to having to deal with a screwed over secondary system. It's like having a justice system where before you go into court, they ask some random guy if you look like you are a bad person and if they say yes then the court is disregarded and you are thrown straight into prison.


Also, Hel's plan includes using her newfound power to cause the next world to send ALL northern souls to her, no matter the race or honor. So this will definitely cause much less suffering in the long run, even if the thing with TDO falls through.

I feel the need to emphasize that while its a bad thing regardless, Hel's plan seems to be to assert herself as the newfound queen of the Northern Pantheon and a very active one at that, meaning that she sets up a huge religious following and swiftly becomes one of the most powerful gods as opposed to "I get all the souls". Though that's a pretty accurate description for the most part. I suppose a side effect of this plan would ironically be that Hel's mind would be cleared up a bit, meaning that she no longer has the same issues as when she attempted to gain the power.

[Peelee]

Who is Thor to judge when a case can be argued on the merits?

A competent counselor? :smallwink:

[Doug Lampert]

Loki set up this entire scenario, if he thought this would hurt him (and sending people who don't die honorably automatically to Hel hurts him, because people who go to him aren't usually honorable) he wouldn't set this up. We don't really know what he wanted from it, but I think Hilgya will go to him, she's his cleric and so he most likely set this up to make dwarves like her go to him (because doing this as a prank on Thor wouldn't explain how it helps him).

Again, we see the terms of the bet. If you want to argue that they aren't what we see, that the comic is lying to us, then there is no point in discussing the comic with you. There's nothing stopping a Loki worshiper from dying with honor, I'll wager that dying fighting a Thor cleric counts every time, and the monsters that attack other dwarves can also attack Loki worshipers, and his worshipers aren't limited to just dwarves and the bet eliminates Hel's competition for all those other souls.

It is EASY to come up with reasons for Loki to make the bet while his priests don't get to ignore the terms. Why not make assumptions that agree with what we're shown in the comic?

[Gluteus_Maximus]

I feel the need to emphasize that while its a bad thing regardless, Hel's plan seems to be to assert herself as the newfound queen of the Northern Pantheon and a very active one at that, meaning that she sets up a huge religious following and swiftly becomes one of the most powerful gods as opposed to "I get all the souls". Though that's a pretty accurate description for the most part. I suppose a side effect of this plan would ironically be that Hel's mind would be cleared up a bit, meaning that she no longer has the same issues as when she attempted to gain the power.


Where everyone is condemned to eternal suffering, without the chance for a last-minute escape.

I do admit it's probably not true that every northern soul would go to her, at least every dwarf would go to her.

[whiteflash]

Again, we see the terms of the bet. If you want to argue that they aren't what we see, that the comic is lying to us, then there is no point in discussing the comic with you. There's nothing stopping a Loki worshiper from dying with honor, I'll wager that dying fighting a Thor cleric counts every time, and the monsters that attack other dwarves can also attack Loki worshipers, and his worshipers aren't limited to just dwarves and the bet eliminates Hel's competition for all those other souls.

It is EASY to come up with reasons for Loki to make the bet while his priests don't get to ignore the terms. Why not make assumptions that agree with what we're shown in the comic?

I don't think we actually know whether Hilgya's dodge would work. Hel has a very strong case, but in the end we don't know how the gods would rule on it until we see them come up with a ruling, and we haven't.

As for why Loki would set the bet up without making his own worshipers immune, Hilgya seems to suggest to Elan that she's the only dwarven cleric of Loki, and I don't think we see any other dwarves in his priesthood. His high priest seems to be a halfling, the priest who helps the Order is human, the priestess of Loki who bets a baby the Church trusted her with in a poker game is human too, and as far as I can remember the only other priest of Loki we've seen is Hilgya. So maybe the loophole he likes to use is to stay away from dwarves?

[Lkctgo]

Bahahahahaha, that is seriously funny. On another note, I would have expected a statute of limitations on arguing for the souls! If you didn't argue 1 year ago, you don't get to argue now!

[The_Weirdo]

Bahahahahaha, that is seriously funny. On another note, I would have expected a statute of limitations on arguing for the souls! If you didn't argue 1 year ago, you don't get to argue now!

Hel: - I invoke the statute of limitations!
Loki: - It does not apply for that particular soul.
Hel: - Sure it does!
Loki: - Let's argue that for each soul, and then, if it doesn't apply, we'll argue the case itself, okay, Pumpkin?
Hel: - AAAAARGH!!!

[Kareeah_Indaga]

And all the little souls run off to their patron deities...so if said deities didn't think to go poke Hel they will now! :smallbiggrin: I like it!

[woweedd]

Bahahahahaha, that is seriously funny. On another note, I would have expected a statute of limitations on arguing for the souls! If you didn't argue 1 year ago, you don't get to argue now!
I think that only applies if Thor actually TRIED to contest it, hence why he didn't before.

[deuterio12]

Truly, Loki is the embodiment of ultimate Evil, helping save the world while releasing souls from Hel(l).

Also super chaotic that with keeping files about all souls that went to Hel(l) for the last century.

[woweedd]

Truly, Loki is the embodiment of ultimate Evil, helping save the world while releasing souls from Hel(l).

Also super chaotic that with keeping files about all souls that went to Hel(l) for the last century.
To paraphrase Belkar, "Thank you, Loki, for solving the problem that only exists because of you". He was the one who engineered the best in the first place, remember. And keeping files doesn't make him Lawful. Putting aside that a Lawful version of Loki is a boggling concept in and of itself, keeping receipts can be very useful no matter what Alignment you are.

[Keltest]

Ok, well played Thor. Well played.

[JumboWheat01]

To paraphrase Belkar, "Thank you, Loki, for solving the problem that only exists because of you". He was the one who engineered the best in the first place, remember. And keeping files doesn't make him Lawful. Putting aside that a Lawful version of Loki is a boggling concept in and of itself, keeping receipts can be very useful no matter what Alignment you are.

Garl Glittergold would like to talk to you about being THE ONLY Lawful Trickery god.

[Angelalex242]

Loki appears to have been infused with a case of the Tom Hiddlestons, because that's more Hiddleston Loki than a truly evil Loki.

[Fish]

So, takeaway is, Thor could have contested these dwarves' souls, but chose not to. Either because he felt it was a futile exercise not worth his time, or because he deliberately sacrificed them in order to have a chip in a situation like this. Either way, not a good look.
No, takeaway is, Thor could have immediately contested these many, many souls in the hopes of sending only a tiny few to an infinite reward and losing the rest to an infinity of torture, but instead he subjected them all to a comparatively tiny and finite amount of suffering in Helheim, after which he saved all of them for an infinity of reward in the appropriate afterlife.

That’s a great look. And it’s math. Any finite suffering in exchange for infinite reward is worth the exchange, when the alternative is infinite punishment for most and infinite reward for a couple.

[F.Harr]

Oh, this is good! This is good! This is so much fun. :D

[Reaplay]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Bureaucracy for the win!

[understatement]

These two brothers are powerhouse gold.

Also, her teeth. Her teeth.

[Keltest]

Also, I love the implicit message here from the brothers to Hel that they, and presumably all the other gods that are probably waiting in a line outside her door, know what she's trying to pull here, and are forcing her to either play along and miss her chance, or admit to wrongdoing and get kicked out of the club entirely. She is well and thoroughly cornered here.

[King of Nowhere]

ah, nothing like the feel of making obstructive burocracy work in your favor to undermine the guy trying to take advantage of said obstructive burocracy.

[Rrmcklin]

So, takeaway is, Thor could have contested these dwarves' souls, but chose not to. Either because he felt it was a futile exercise not worth his time, or because he deliberately sacrificed them in order to have a chip in a situation like this. Either way, not a good look.

I mean, I'm sure he could have, but the very obvious implication is that he wouldn't have won the argument. It only works he because Hel has something she considers more important to worry about, and thus isn't putting up a serious fight. The whole hundred years worth of souls may very well be a different matter, though.

And as Loki is here now, I wonder if we might actually find out why he put this whole thing in motion to begin with.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

There's no way that those cabinets are alphabetized, or date-ordered, or properly sorted.
Loki probably rearranged the files just to be a jerk.

[Guancyto]

I love how Hel is so committed to her get-rich-quick scheme that she's missing things that should be really obvious to her.

The Bet was one too - the usual clerical system is the classic "spend money to make money," but Hel was so intrigued by the possibility of getting something for nothing (you mean I don't have to spend any power on clerics, but get all the souls?) that she didn't even consider how the other shoe might drop.

She might get to be Queen of the Northern Pantheon in the next world - but if there have been millions of worlds, that's bound to be a short-lived honor, and other gods will never forget her usurping the pantheon.

[BriarHobbit]

I am amazed to see Thor as a lawyer. Hel, however, can't just concede all of those "uncontested souls." That will reduce her power base and presumably, her ability to cast spells into the Prime Material plane. This was very funny.

[Rrmcklin]

I love how Hel is so committed to her get-rich-quick scheme that she's missing things that should be really obvious to her.

The Bet was one too - the usual clerical system is the classic "spend money to make money," but Hel was so intrigued by the possibility of getting something for nothing (you mean I don't have to spend any power on clerics, but get all the souls?) that she didn't even consider how the other shoe might drop.

She might get to be Queen of the Northern Pantheon in the next world - but if there have been millions of worlds, that's bound to be a short-lived honor, and other gods will never forget her usurping the pantheon.

On what basis do you have to assume her being the Queen of their pantheon would stop after the next world's tenure? That the hierarchy changes with every world certainly hasn't been implied, and Hel's power move and the implications from it seem unprecedented. Certainly not somethin we have any actual reason to assume would end in a few thousand years.

[deuterio12]

To paraphrase Belkar, "Thank you, Loki, for solving the problem that only exists because of you". He was the one who engineered the best in the first place, remember.


Everybody makes mistakes. But aknowledging one's mistakes and working to fix them is a sign of goodness, not evilness.

Plus it takes more than one to play the game. Thor, Hel(l), all the other gods that could have the right to a dwarf soul, they agreed to go along the bet.



And keeping files doesn't make him Lawful. Putting aside that a Lawful version of Loki is a boggling concept in and of itself, keeping receipts can be very useful no matter what Alignment you are.

Lots of things can be useful long-term, but preparing for the long term in the first place is definitely closer to lawful than chaotic. You don't see many orc warlords or slaads with file cabinets about the activities of other orc warlords and slaads.

[Finback]

I'm not sure who's the better God of Lawyers.

[Crusher]

Hah! I love it!

Ok, this is kind of random, but I was watching a documentary on the Battle of Midway, and essentially this is how the US won. The Japanese had this massive carrier group with excellent pilots and planes, and also had some measure of surprise.

The Japanese carriers were really light on anti-air weaponry, but they were pretty maneuverable, so the doctrine was to defend against aerial attacks first by defensive fighters and secondly through defensive maneuvers. The downside of which was they weren't very good at launching new planes mid-battle because they were busy swerving around to dodge stuff.

The Japanese launched half their main strike force at the US naval base at Midway itself (keeping half in reserve to attack the US carrier fleet if it suddenly showed up, which it did). The attack badly damaged the base, but didn't knock it out.

The Americans then started sending constant small waves of planes to attack the Japanese. The Japanese were able to fend off each wave, shooting many of them down, and the carriers successfully dodged attack after attack. The Japanese fleet was on edge because they were under constant attack, but the results looked heavily in their favor. After like 3 hours of constant attacks, the Japanese had shot down 50+ US planes while losing maybe a dozen of their own and not a single Japanese carrier had been hit.

The problem was that the Japanese carriers had spent three straight hours evasive manuvers and dodging attacks. Which worked great... except that if a carrier is dodging around wildly it can't be launching new planes. When there were brief breaks in the action, the Japanese had to use them landing their returning initial strike group (the one that attacked Midway) so they didn't run out of gas and crash into the sea.

Finally, the US sent in a bigger wave of bombers, protected by the best fighter pilots, and they managed to draw almost all of the remaining Japanese fighters into a huge dogfight a little ways northeast of the carriers. It was a tough fight, and the Japanese pilots probably would have eventually won it, too, but it was a diversion.

The US had sent 3 full squadrons of dive bombers, entirely unescorted, in from the northwest. They caught the Japanese fleet by surprise with minimal air cover and blasted the crap out of them. The Japanese carriers' hangers were full with both the unused (but fully fueled and loaded) second half of the main strike force, as well as the returned bombers (which were in the process of being refueled and reloaded with bombs). For example, the Akagi was only hit by a single bomb (which in theory it should have easily been able to shrug off), but it happened to hit a hanger, blowing up among the planes. The planes' fuel caught fire, and then the bombs started chain detonating, destroying the carrier. All 4 Japanese carriers were destroyed.

Anyway, the point being, sometimes its worth taking extra damage if it means distracting the enemy enough so that they can't bring out the big guns.

[Guancyto]

On what basis do you have to assume her being the Queen of their pantheon would stop after the next world's tenure? That the hierarchy changes with every world certainly hasn't been implied, and Hel's power move and the implications from it seem unprecedented. Certainly not somethin we have any actual reason to assume would end in a few thousand years.

It might not stop after the next world's tenure. It might not stop after the ten next worlds' tenure. (Realistically I don't see her lasting more than a couple, just because she doesn't seem wily or charismatic enough to make it stick, and ruling the Norse pantheon is like herding greased, angry cats at the best of times.)

But gods' memories are forever, and forever is a really long time.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

I'm just going to guess right now this arc is going to end with Hel being parallaxxed/phantom zoned/thrown into the s(n)arlacc pit

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Hah! I love it!

Ok, this is kind of random, but I was watching a documentary on the Battle of Midway, and essentially this is how the US won. The Japanese had this massive carrier group with excellent pilots and planes, and also had some measure of surprise.

The Japanese carriers were really light on anti-air weaponry, but they were pretty maneuverable, so the doctrine was to defend against aerial attacks first by defensive fighters and secondly through defensive maneuvers. The downside of which was they weren't very good at launching new planes mid-battle because they were busy swerving around to dodge stuff.

The Japanese launched half their main strike force at the US naval base at Midway itself (keeping half in reserve to attack the US carrier fleet if it suddenly showed up, which it did). The attack badly damaged the base, but didn't knock it out.

The Americans then started sending constant small waves of planes to attack the Japanese. The Japanese were able to fend off each wave, shooting many of them down, and the carriers successfully dodged attack after attack. The Japanese fleet was on edge because they were under constant attack, but the results looked heavily in their favor. After like 3 hours of constant attacks, the Japanese had shot down 50+ US planes while losing maybe a dozen of their own and not a single Japanese carrier had been hit.

The problem was that the Japanese carriers had spent three straight hours evasive manuvers and dodging attacks. Which worked great... except that if a carrier is dodging around wildly it can't be launching new planes. When there were brief breaks in the action, the Japanese had to use them landing their returning initial strike group (the one that attacked Midway) so they didn't run out of gas and crash into the sea.

Finally, the US sent in a bigger wave of bombers, protected by the best fighter pilots, and they managed to draw almost all of the remaining Japanese fighters into a huge dogfight a little ways northeast of the carriers. It was a tough fight, and the Japanese pilots probably would have eventually won it, too, but it was a diversion.

The US had sent 3 full squadrons of dive bombers, entirely unescorted, in from the northwest. They caught the Japanese fleet by surprise with minimal air cover and blasted the crap out of them. The Japanese carriers' hangers were full with both the unused (but fully fueled and loaded) second half of the main strike force, as well as the returned bombers (which were in the process of being refueled and reloaded with bombs). The Akagi was only hit by a single bomb, but it happened to hit a hanger, blowing up among the planes. The bombs on the parked planes then started chain detonating, also igniting the fuel. All 4 Japanese carriers were destroyed.

Anyway, the point being, sometimes its worth taking extra damage if it means distracting the enemy enough so that they can't bring out the big guns.

The lead-up to Midway was pretty brilliant, too. Joseph J. Rochefort (a slipper-wearing 20-hour-workday-having cryptanalysis genius) and his guys (Station HYPO) had decoded Japan's messages to the point of knowing that they tended to name target places in the Hawai'i region with initials starting with A (for example, Oahu was already known to be AH), and the Japanese were planning on sending a carrier force to AF. Rochefort believed that AF was Midway, but Admiral Nimitz was concerned that Midway could be a false lead, and that if you wanted to throw off enemy cryptanalysis, making a pattern and then breaking it is a time-proven method.

In the end, it was agreed that the navy would broadcast a message that the desalination plants at Midway had broken down.

A bit later, a Japanese intelligence report was saying that "AF is short of water". Midway it was.

Not sure what the point or lesson of this one is, but it's always been a cool story to me.

[whiteflash]

It might not stop after the next world's tenure. It might not stop after the ten next worlds' tenure. (Realistically I don't see her lasting more than a couple, just because she doesn't seem wily or charismatic enough to make it stick, and ruling the Norse pantheon is like herding greased, angry cats at the best of times.)

But gods' memories are forever, and forever is a really long time.

She doesn't seem to think it works based on charisma. It sounds like she thought was going to get it based on being more powerful than all the other gods, which she assumed she was going to be based on the fact that she was about to get eight million souls and eight million dedications all in one swoop. And you'd think if she was wrong about how leadership of the pantheon works, or on how much power she'd have relative to the rest of the Northern Pantheon when the dust cleared, one of the other gods would have pointed it out.

As for that not lasting, I'd assume that as the Queen of the Northern Pantheon, she'd have a bigger share of worshipers than the rest of the Northern Gods, and thus more power. So she'd just need to gain the power to take the helm, and keeping it would take care of itself, unless someone else has a once-in-eternity stroke of good luck.

[Rrmcklin]

It might not stop after the next world's tenure. It might not stop after the ten next worlds' tenure. (Realistically I don't see her lasting more than a couple, just because she doesn't seem wily or charismatic enough to make it stick, and ruling the Norse pantheon is like herding greased, angry cats at the best of times.)

But gods' memories are forever, and forever is a really long time.

This assumes they'll hold a grudge, when, realistically, the only person actually losing anything is Odin.

And you seem to be working under the logic as if the Pantheon is some sort of democracy or if it is the way it is because they all agreed to it. When in actuality, it seems like Odin is the leader because he's the most powerful, hence why Hel becoming the most powerful will put her in charge. And in this hypothetical in which she is the most powerful and free of the bet restricting her, staying that way would likely be fairly easy; Odin apparently managed if for billions of years.

Look, I'm not trying to argue that Hel is the sharpest tool in the box, but certain people have a tendency to make some, frankly, baseless assumptions and then act as if she's dumb for not adhering to those aforementioned assumptions.

[StClair]

I'm looking forward to Loki Dad Jokes.

[Cavenskull]

You're misunderstanding my argument - sorry I must be bad at this ;-)

I don't think anything will work - I'm not at all imagining or stating that Hilgya is getting any benefit out of her belief system.

What I'm postulating (badly I guess) is that IF there was a hypothetical dwarf in the previous year (or file cabinet) who wholeheartedly and righteously believed with his/her whole heart and soul that to die with honor was in fact the most important thing - and then said hypothetical dwarf failed to die honorably - then they would be correctly judged to have been a moral failure and going to Hel would be an appropriate judgement.

When I first read the strip I imagined (without cause perhaps) that Regin Greenhammer might be such a dwarf, and that by making a funny but patently absurd argument to release him, it felt to me that Thor was in fact subverting more than just the bet.

Mainly wanted to say - to me this one felt a little off....
By that logic, Roy should have been kicked out of the good afterlife for his multiple moral failings.

Keep in mind that life gets complicated. For instance, lets assume for a moment that Hilgya is your hypothetical dwarf. Let's also assume that she managed to die during the fight with the vampires, leaving her child alone and helpless against an army of vampires. Is that "death with honor" really so important that it's worth effectively sacrificing her child to achieve it? Or what if she lived, and her child managed to die in the battle instead? Does the fact that she was willing to die with honor absolve her of that death? What if they both died?

Now, what if Hilgya left her child with the other dwarves as recommended, and she flees from a losing battle to make sure she's still alive to take care of her child? Is that failure to die with honor so egregious that her desire to care for a helpless child cannot overcome that lack of honor?

What if we look at another dwarf? Durkon definitely believes in dwarven honor and knows the consequences of a dishonorable death, yet he's fled from many fights. Should that cowardice trump his consistent desire to help his fellow party members, to eventually heal his mother, to generally do good, to stop an evil lich, and to save all of existence?

There are lots of cases where a generally honorable person can occasionally do something dishonorable, and if any dishonorable action trumps all the good that someone did during their life, what's the point in trying to be a decent person?

[Rogar Demonblud]

It should be noted that most of the times the Order is fleeing from a fight, Durkon is literally being dragged away from the scene by Roy. He is NOT running away.

[Guancyto]

She doesn't seem to think it works based on charisma.

Yes, I know she doesn't. :smallamused:

Dwight D. Eisenhower once remarked of leadership, "pull the string, and it will follow wherever you wish. Push it, and it will go nowhere at all."

Odin seems to get to be in charge, at this point, by largely not throwing his weight around. There are tons of fiddly god rules, but they seem to be adhered to by consent, and because the alternative is thought to be worse. (Given the timescales involved, it was probably worse before and they've probably worked all this out over a very long time.)


And you seem to be working under the logic as if the Pantheon is some sort of democracy or if it is the way it is because they all agreed to it.

Ha! You do realize that this story arc is literally about a divine referendum, right? Remember? Stopping a vampire dwarf from committing election fraud?

Even without the explicit democratic element, I am working under the assumption that if you piss everyone off by assuming your power lets you do whatever you want (Hel is many things in this comic strip, but a light touch is not one of them), they'll depose you, and if they can't do that they'll undermine you.

I am, of course, only speculating. But I speculate that the Northern Gods will chafe under Hel's yoke much more quickly than Odin's.

[woweedd]

Garl Glittergold would like to talk to you about being THE ONLY Lawful Trickery god.
He's a Gnome. They're...different.

Loki appears to have been infused with a case of the Tom Hiddlestons, because that's more Hiddleston Loki than a truly evil Loki.
Getting the chance to play a hilarious joke AND prove a point to his daughter, plu distracting her form a plan that will destroy the entire world, of which he is rather fond? He'd be a fool not to.

Everybody makes mistakes. But aknowledging one's mistakes and working to fix them is a sign of goodness, not evilness.

Plus it takes more than one to play the game. Thor, Hel(l), all the other gods that could have the right to a dwarf soul, they agreed to go along the bet.



Lots of things can be useful long-term, but preparing for the long term in the first place is definitely closer to lawful than chaotic. You don't see many orc warlords or slaads with file cabinets about the activities of other orc warlords and slaads.
Hel is also Evil and, so far as I cant ell, Thor was the only other one who agreed, and he was drunk out of his mind at the time. Loki has been explicitly referred as Evil, and, as for his Ethos...Well, I could see a Good interpretation of Loki. But a Lawful Loki...That just defies all logic. Even Rich, with his admittedly loose adherence to Norse Mythology, wouldn't make one of the most bluntly Chaotic figures in all of myth Lawful. Good? Maybe, but I doubt it. Lawful? No dice.

[whiteflash]

Yes, I know she doesn't. :smallamused:

Dwight D. Eisenhower once remarked of leadership, "pull the string, and it will follow wherever you wish. Push it, and it will go nowhere at all."

Odin seems to get to be in charge, at this point, by largely not throwing his weight around. There are tons of fiddly god rules, but they seem to be adhered to by consent, and because the alternative is thought to be worse. (Given the timescales involved, it was probably worse before and they've probably worked all this out over a very long time.)

But what about my other main point? The point that none of the other gods question that this plan of hers is workable? If just not following Hel even if she's the most powerful member was workable, and the other gods were willing to do it, you'd think the other gods would have pointed that out by now.

You mention that a lot of the reason the gods follow these rules is that they think the alternative is worse. It's true, and I don't think you're paying enough attention to it.



Ha! You do realize that this story arc is literally about a divine referendum, right? Remember? Stopping a vampire dwarf from committing election fraud?

Even without the explicit democratic element, I am working under the assumption that if you piss everyone off by assuming your power lets you do whatever you want (Hel is many things in this comic strip, but a light touch is not one of them), they'll depose you, and if they can't do that they'll undermine you.

I am, of course, only speculating. But I speculate that the Northern Gods will chafe under Hel's yoke much more quickly than Odin's.

They almost certainly will chafe. But it sounds like the rules will keep her in power for the foreseeable future, no matter how they chafe, unless one of the other gods get unreasonably lucky. The other gods might work behind her back to weaken her position, but with the additional worshipers I assume she gets as the highest ranking Northern God, they'll need some sort of large source of power to take the throne the way she did.

Of course, that assumes she doesn't do something really stupid that forces them to throw out the rules out of self-preservation, and maybe that isn't an entirely safe assumption... but if she doesn't do that? If all she is is a selfish leader who puts herself first, she could stay one for quite some time, even by godly standards.

[Cavenskull]

It should be noted that most of the times the Order is fleeing from a fight, Durkon is literally being dragged away from the scene by Roy. He is NOT running away.

That's certainly true, though I thought the idea was to work around Durkon's slow movement, and of course Durkon wasn't resisting being part of the retreat. And for the purposes of the point that's in dispute, all it should take to undo all of Durkon's good deeds is one dishonorable action, like that time he exhibited so much cowardice that he fled from combat with his sworn enemy, even going so far as to literally abandon his weaponry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html). But as Durkon has proven quite dramatically, you're not defined by who you are on your worst day.

[Guancyto]

"You're almost certainly going to be a terrible leader, you dirty usurper you, and you'll be out on your ear in a world or two and we'll make sure you don't get that powerful again," is not something you tell the soon-to-be despot.

Odin's current spot at the top (if you want to talk about unfounded assumptions, assuming he was leader from the universe's beginning until now is a big one!) seems to be that of a first-among-equals and I don't think we've seen him actually try to boss another god around at all yet. This makes sense - rule-by-power is sustainable when you can kill everyone you don't like, but when everyone else is a god too it's rule-by-consent or titanomachy.

The Northern Gods themselves (as we see them giving their reasoning for their votes) are, just, crazy individualistic, and if Hel attempts to actually capitalize on her new position it seems unlikely to go well.

Which brings us back to what I was saying: she's so focused on getting powerful quickly and getting out of her hole in the ground that she doesn't consider the consequences... which is what got her in that hole in the ground in the first place.

[whiteflash]

"You're almost certainly going to be a terrible leader, you dirty usurper you, and you'll be out on your ear in a world or two and we'll make sure you don't get that powerful again," is not something you tell the soon-to-be despot.But you seem to be questioning that her plan even could make her the soon-to-be-despot the way she asserts it can. If that assertion isn't true, you'd think they'd point it out to her, and maybe solve the problems she's creating for her own benefit just by talking her down. And since in this hypothetical, she wouldn't be the soon-to-be-despot no matter what happened, there'd be no reason for them not to try.

Odin's current spot at the top (if you want to talk about unfounded assumptions, assuming he was leader from the universe's beginning until now is a big one!) seems to be that of a first-among-equals and I don't think we've seen him actually try to boss another god around at all yet. This makes sense - rule-by-power is sustainable when you can kill everyone you don't like, but when everyone else is a god too it's rule-by-consent or titanomachy.

The Northern Gods themselves (as we see them giving their reasoning for their votes) are, just, crazy individualistic, and if Hel attempts to actually capitalize on her new position it seems unlikely to go well.

Which brings us back to what I was saying: she's so focused on getting powerful quickly and getting out of her hole in the ground that she doesn't consider the consequences... which is what got her in that hole in the ground in the first place.

Wait, where are you getting the impression she intends to rule by power? She seems to want to rule by exploiting the rules to make herself the leader, and then forcing everyone to go along with it to preserve the order they agreed on. She seems to understand that to some degree the leaders of the gods rule by consent, and to have set this plan up to gain that consent. If she wants to become the most powerful deity as part of that plan, it's not because she can force her way using that power, but because (it's implied) the mere fact that she is the most powerful gives her added privileges while they're making decisions.

[Fyraltari]

To paraphrase Belkar, "Thank you, Loki, for solving the problem that only exists because of you". He was the one who engineered the best in the first place, remember. And keeping files doesn't make him Lawful. Putting aside that a Lawful version of Loki is a boggling concept in and of itself, keeping receipts can be very useful no matter what Alignment you are.
I had assumed that Loki and Thor just went and fetched these files from the devas and other relevant afterlife workers

Everybody makes mistakes. But aknowledging one's mistakes and working to fix them is a sign of goodness, not evilness.
Oh, come on! "Let's offer my evil daughter a bunch of souls based on an unjust system" is not a mistake, it's a bareface crime. And Loki shows no sign of repentance.


Plus it takes more than one to play the game. Thor, Hel(l), all the other gods that could have the right to a dwarf soul, they agreed to go along the bet.
Thor was black-out drunk and I see no reason why anyone would need to have agreed to anything. Monkey got nija into this world without anyone's agreement because it was his turn. It's not unlikely that Hel unilateraly implemented the rules of the Bet on her turn.

[woweedd]

"You're almost certainly going to be a terrible leader, you dirty usurper you, and you'll be out on your ear in a world or two and we'll make sure you don't get that powerful again," is not something you tell the soon-to-be despot.

Odin's current spot at the top (if you want to talk about unfounded assumptions, assuming he was leader from the universe's beginning until now is a big one!) seems to be that of a first-among-equals and I don't think we've seen him actually try to boss another god around at all yet. This makes sense - rule-by-power is sustainable when you can kill everyone you don't like, but when everyone else is a god too it's rule-by-consent or titanomachy.

The Northern Gods themselves (as we see them giving their reasoning for their votes) are, just, crazy individualistic, and if Hel attempts to actually capitalize on her new position it seems unlikely to go well.

Which brings us back to what I was saying: she's so focused on getting powerful quickly and getting out of her hole in the ground that she doesn't consider the consequences... which is what got her in that hole in the ground in the first place.
{scrubbed} Back on subject: We don't know how Gods take or keep power. We assume souls, that seems plausible. Narratively, Hel's plan has to be fesibale, becaus,e otherwise, there's no drama. And I think we can assume Odin was chief god at the world's birth, given the crayon flashbacks, which, yes, were unreliable in other regards, but I still take a "trun-until-proven-otherwise" attitude towards, with only one of its claims proving to false thus far.

I had assumed that Loki and Thor just went and fetched these files from the devas and other relevant afterlife workers

Oh, come on! "Let's offer my evil daughter a bunch of souls based on an unjust system" is not a mistake, it's a bareface crime. And Loki shows no sign of repentance.


Thor was black-out drunk and I see no reason why anyone would need to have agreed to anything. Monkey got nija into this world without anyone's agreement because it was his turn. It's not unlikely that Hel unilateraly implemented the rules of the Bet on her turn.
Plus, if ALL the Gods are Evil, as they appear to be suggesting, I see no reason to make Loki an exception.

[Yirggzmb]

Loki appears to have been infused with a case of the Tom Hiddlestons, because that's more Hiddleston Loki than a truly evil Loki.

To be fair, I'm not sure I've really ever seen a truly evil Loki. Discounting actual Ragnarok, even mythological Loki wouldn't be too far out of sorts with OotS Loki or Hiddleston Loki. Sure you're never quite sure which side he's on (probably only his own), but that's just part of the trickster archetype. And even mythological Ragnarok always felt more like a revenge thing than a "for the evuls" thing to me.

[Guancyto]

But you seem to be questioning that her plan even could make her the soon-to-be-despot the way she asserts it can. If that assertion isn't true, you'd think they'd point it out to her, and maybe solve the problems she's creating for her own benefit just by talking her down. And since in this hypothetical, she wouldn't be the soon-to-be-despot no matter what happened, there'd be no reason for them not to try.
Yes, because someone making a play for supreme executive power will respond well to "politically-speaking, we're going to make your life hell if you go through with this and squish you after you've had your fun, so you should probably stop." Come on. :smalltongue: The others don't tell her it'll be unfeasible because it'll be unfeasible because of them.


Wait, where are you getting the impression she intends to rule by power? She seems to want to rule by exploiting the rules to make herself the leader, and then forcing everyone to go along with it to preserve the order they agreed on. She seems to understand that to some degree the leaders of the gods rule by consent, and to have set this plan up to gain that consent. If she wants to become the most powerful deity as part of that plan, it's not because she can force her way using that power, but because (it's implied) the mere fact that she is the most powerful gives her added privileges while they're making decisions.

I guess that's the crux of our disagreement! The harder she pushes on the Northern Gods as their leader, the less time she's likely to last, but the more things will go her way. The easier her yoke is, the longer her rule will be. Odin seems to have kept his position for a very long time by not asking much. If Hel can thread the needle just right she can stay in power for a very long time, but the manner of her ascension means the deck is stacked against her in terms of influence from the very start, and the nature of her being means that influence is the most important currency, not power. (That's not to discount the influence she gains from her newfound power, but y'know.)

The reason I think she'll try to be a despot and is bound to fail is speculative, and that's all on me. But it's because of her gloating at the Godsmoot - she was making it incredibly clear that this is a usurpation. Who does that? Nobody does that! Nobody but someone who intends to make it clear that in the new regime, it will be her way or the highway.

[Zhorn]

The moment Thor moved on to the second soul; I had a goofy grin on my face seeing where this was going.

Great comic Giant :smallbiggrin:

[Wysper]

This is one of the most Epic Stories, it fills the gap in my heart left by lack of Epic D&D.

[Kardwill]

I almost pity her, being that she was tricked into the current deal structure... BUT she is trying to cheat, and doing so would harm Durkon... so carry on? :P

She got tricked because she was lazy (get free souls without any effort), greedy (she disliked the idea of spending power on her priests), scheming ("Let's take advantage of this drunken lout Thor by putting up a false bet") and power-hungry (get an advantage over the other gods). She thought she was tricking everybody, and got tricked in the process. So, yeah, I have trouble pitying her. It's a classical case of swindled swindler ^^

The fact that she's whining over it while venting her frustration on the REAL victims of the bet (the dwarves) doesn't help, either.

[GloatingSwine]

Are there any repercussions on Hell if she allows all of the souls to leave her domain? Could a significant loss in souls impact her divine rank?

In the next world, yeah.

The whole point of her destroying the world now is that she’ll get all the souls of Dwarves currently alive. If she loses too many of the ones she already has that might not be enough to give her dominance in the next iteration of the world.

So these are stakes she can’t meet forever.

[whiteflash]

Yes, because someone making a play for supreme executive power will respond well to "politically-speaking, we're going to make your life hell if you go through with this and squish you after you've had your fun, so you should probably stop." Come on. :smalltongue: The others don't tell her it'll be unfeasible because it'll be unfeasible because of them.

Wait, that's what you meant?

I'd thought you were questioning whether or not her plan could get her into that position in the first place.



I guess that's the crux of our disagreement! The harder she pushes on the Northern Gods as their leader, the less time she's likely to last, but the more things will go her way. The easier her yoke is, the longer her rule will be. Odin seems to have kept his position for a very long time by not asking much. If Hel can thread the needle just right she can stay in power for a very long time, but the manner of her ascension means the deck is stacked against her in terms of influence from the very start, and the nature of her being means that influence is the most important currency, not power. (That's not to discount the influence she gains from her newfound power, but y'know.)

The reason I think she'll try to be a despot and is bound to fail is speculative, and that's all on me. But it's because of her gloating at the Godsmoot - she was making it incredibly clear that this is a usurpation. Who does that? Nobody does that! Nobody but someone who intends to make it clear that in the new regime, it will be her way or the highway.

Given her preference (and talent) for subverting rules, I'd assumed she wasn't going to press as far as you seem to think. If she wasn't smarter than you seem to think, and capable of discretion when she needed to be discreet, she wouldn't have gotten even this far. And we see that she has at least a little political instinct when she sets up what should have been a winning coalition among the demigod tiebreakers in the Godsmoot, failing only because she didn't fully realize that Hermod didn't fully understand what was going on.

[warmachine]

Hel's current problem is also the result of her terrible organisational attitude. She needs to recruit and delegate to lieutenants or stewards. Micromanaging everything yourself only works for tiny enterprises.

[Jannoire]

The moment Thor moved on to the second soul; I had a goofy grin on my face seeing where this was going.

Great comic Giant :smallbiggrin:

He moment Thor bursted through the door, I squealed like a teenie in the first row of a concert when she has a crush on the singer...

Edit, because I noticed stuff...
Hel's teeth don't look that healthy, nice touch...
And I think she leans a little too close to the basin in the panel we see Durkon chasing Gonetor up the stairs. Is she maybe casting something while Thor is occupied speaking to her?

[Fyraltari]

Hel's current problem is also the result of her terrible organisational attitude. She needs to recruit and delegate to lieutenants or stewards. Micromanaging everything yourself only works for tiny enterprises.

In her defense her lieutenants are all dead(er), Thrym or incapable of making worm-food puns.

[Jannoire]

In her defense her lieutenants are all dead(er), Thrym or incapable of making worm-food puns.

I wouldn't trust anyone with my big plan, if they couldn't make appropriate puns.

[Kardwill]

Hel's current problem is also the result of her terrible organisational attitude. She needs to recruit and delegate to lieutenants or stewards. Micromanaging everything yourself only works for tiny enterprises.

She has pawns, but doesn't like to share her power. That's one of the reasons the "no clerics, only default souls" plan was so appealing to her : No need to deal with pesky underlings and support her priesthood.

She's sneaky and skillfully used her image as the underdog to gather support, but I don't think she plays well with others : She was selfish to begin with, and the bet made her terribly bitter. Hence the gloating when she gets the advantage, and snapping at allies.

[Guancyto]

Wait, that's what you meant?

I'd thought you were questioning whether or not her plan could get her into that position in the first place.
Oh yeah. Bless me for an idiot for not communicating it better.


Given her preference (and talent) for subverting rules, I'd assumed she wasn't going to press as far as you seem to think. If she wasn't smarter than you seem to think, and capable of discretion when she needed to be discreet, she wouldn't have gotten even this far. And we see that she has at least a little political instinct when she sets up what should have been a winning coalition among the demigod tiebreakers in the Godsmoot, failing only because she didn't fully realize that Hermod didn't fully understand what was going on.
It is interesting how differently people can interpret the same scene! When Hermod waffles about ending the world, her response is, "you pledged yourself to my cause, you cowardly twit!" which seems to reinforce Hermod's decision to oppose her.

She's certainly not dumb! (The backup plan with Dvalin is genuinely clever, given the resources she has available - but it would have completely gone down in flames had Vaarsuvius kept the teleport orb on zir person.) But in a pinch when dealing with recalcitrance it's immediately "do as I say." That leads me to believe that although she's good at scheming, her ability to play the long game and to build necessary coalitions of her fellow gods would be, ah... limited, and either she'd be a pretty ineffective Queen or else she'd crash and burn trying to continually enforce her will. Not dumb - but not inclined to think things through, either, especially not when there's ultimate power right in front of her.

The next world is really going to suck for everyone, though. Wonder if they've done a Ravenloft-esque world yet?

[woweedd]

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