How many monsters are just cursed elves?

[Luccan]

Perusing the monster manual, I came across the harpy's entry. Now, I don't recall this being the case in previous editions, so I was surprised to learn that harpies are apparently descended from cursed elves. Also, banshees? Cursed undead elves. Famously, driders are cursed dark elves. And I seem to recall several more in various monster manuals over the years. So, what are the various monsters that turn out to be cursed elves? Also, why are the elven gods such huge jerks? They get way more Greek god punish-y than the other D&D pantheons it seems.

I was once an elf:
Banshees (Beautiful elves turned undead monsters)
Chitines/Cholodriths (when creating mutant slaves, do not accidentally do the thing your goddess does to people she's mad at)
Driders (the thing your goddess does to people she's mad at)
Harpies (seriously, were these bird ladies always descended from elves?)
Fey'ri (elf tieflings/tanarukk's, unstatted in 5e)
The original Ghoul (Orcus worshiper, technically a blessing)
Kaorti (unstatted in 5e, Far Realm twisted elves)
Shadar-kai (shadow-tainted elves)

Edit: Drow and even regular elves are all technically cursed for rebelling against Correlon millennia ago, at least by default 5e lore. This includes every elf and drow in settings where Correlon and Lolth don't exist, but that can technically be reached via Spelljammer (even if you can't enter it).

[Rukelnikov]

Perusing the monster manual, I came across the harpy's entry. Now, I don't recall this being the case in previous editions, so I was surprised to learn that harpies are apparently descended from cursed elves. Also, banshees? Cursed undead elves. Famously, driders are cursed dark elves. And I seem to recall several more in various monster manuals over the years. So, what are the various monsters that turn out to be cursed elves? Also, why are the elven gods such huge jerks? They get way more Greek god punish-y than the other D&D pantheons it seems.

I was once an elf:
Banshees
Driders
Harpies

Orcs are warped elves in Tolkien's mythology, Fey'ri are elven half demons...

That's all I got sorry

[Steel Mirror]

Depending on how closely you hew to Tolkien, orcs were originally elves mutated by dark powers to serve them.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

[Rukelnikov]

A bit of research showed Chitines ALSO are warped elves, but this time warped by other elves

[Millstone85]

In the case of the elf who became the first harpy, she was the one who "cursed the gods, invoking a dreadful power", not the other way around.

I guess she intended for herself to become the curse, or maybe it just rebounded into her face.

[Luccan]

In the case of the elf who became the first harpy, she was the one who "cursed the gods, invoking a dreadful power", not the other way around.

I guess she intended for herself to become the curse, or maybe it just rebounded into her face.

The way I read it, the gods cursed her for being ungrateful (cursing the gods) when things didn't work out. Which, ok that's harsh but potentially expected, but they also screwed over basically every innocent person that has since been eaten.

Apparently, the original ghoul was an elf worshiper of Orcus, but Elven immunity to ghoul paralysis is actually a blessing from the gods when things didn't work out and the guy begged their forgiveness. So I can mark that down as a maybe, I guess

[JackPhoenix]

They aren't in 5e, but Kaorti were what happens when a bunch of elven wizards takes a trip to the Far Realm.

[Alexwellace]

Those Vulture-looking dudes from the Dark Crystal, Nagpa's I think, were the Elves that screw up the Raven Queens plans.

[hamishspence]

From Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, Shadar-kai are now shadow-tainted elves, when before they were shadow-tainted humans (4e) or fey (3e).

[hymer]

Orcs are warped elves in Tolkien's mythology


Depending on how closely you hew to Tolkien, orcs were originally elves mutated by dark powers to serve them.

For clarity, this is just one proposed explanation to the origins of Orcs. Tolkien never settled on any of them, and indeed found all of them problematic. We don't know the origins of his Orcs.

[Particle_Man]

All monsters are cursed elves. Just ask one. :smallsmile:

[BloodSnake'sCha]

All monsters are cursed elves. Just ask one. :smallsmile:

Now I want to play an Elf only camping.

Cursed Elves are allowed so you can choose human for example.
LOL :)

[Scarytincan]

Draegloth are half drow half glabrezu demons.

The first ghoul was an elf, ghasts are ghouls given more power, and, less directly, maurezhi demons were created to lead packs of ghouls and ghasts.

Also : Half elf bad guys count? :p

[No brains]

While not descended from elves Slaad share ~90% of their nature with elves. Formerly formless beings of chaos forced into a set form because some god felt inadequate. It's possible elves and slaad come from the same formless chaos beings. The only difference is that Corellon forced elves into pretty, point-eared, insomniac bodies and Primus forced Slaad into giant toad bodies.

You know what? I'd bet a few red/green Slaad ARE elves that were mutated by Slaad disease. This has gone beyond a figurative answer right into a literal one.

[Willie the Duck]

So, what are the various monsters that turn out to be cursed elves? Also, why are the elven gods such huge jerks? They get way more Greek god punish-y than the other D&D pantheons it seems.

One of the things that gets noticed about elves in D&D is that the only things people seem to be able to do with them is fawn over their apparent perfection (2e's Complete Book of Elves, 3e's an-elf-subrace-for-every-build, etc.), or subvert the same. Elves are always either pretty happy people of goodness an light prancing in sylvan glades, contemplating flowers and farting rainbows, or they are arrogant racist jerkwads who care nothing for the short-lived races, etc. etc. Kinda makes sense that there would be lots of depictions of cursed or fallen elves.

Still, my general perception of 'why' probably leans more towards the thinking that the designers (of all editions) just really like thinking about elves. Even Gary, who kinda wanted D&D to be humanocentric and claimed to only begrudgingly included Tolkienisms in his game because the fans expected them, invented the drow, Lolth, and driders (and the elven immunity to ghoul paralysis, which undoubtedly inspired ghouls eventually become elf-related). Certainly if you consider the TSR era (where most PCs were assumed to be one of human, elf, half-elf, halfling, dwarf, gnome or sometimes half-orc), the number of column-inches devoted to elves, compared to halflings, dwarves, gnomes and half-orc combined has got to still favor the elves. They are simply the demihuman race of dominant fascination.

[Rukelnikov]

One of the things that gets noticed about elves in D&D is that the only things people seem to be able to do with them is fawn over their apparent perfection (2e's Complete Book of Elves, 3e's an-elf-subrace-for-every-build, etc.), or subvert the same. Elves are always either pretty happy people of goodness an light prancing in sylvan glades, contemplating flowers and farting rainbows, or they are arrogant racist jerkwads who care nothing for the short-lived races, etc. etc. Kinda makes sense that there would be lots of depictions of cursed or fallen elves

As creatures of chaotic nature it makes sense they are both

[Chronos]

Nothics are cursed wizards of unspecified original race, so some of them probably were elves, especially since elves seem predisposed to wizardry.

[johnbragg]

One of the things that gets noticed about elves in D&D is that the only things people seem to be able to do with them is fawn over their apparent perfection (2e's Complete Book of Elves, 3e's an-elf-subrace-for-every-build, etc.), or subvert the same.

Well, it's hard to imagine something that you couldn't fit under one of those two.

But, if your Feywild is on the Prime Material Plane, semi-protected by fey-chaos time effects, and you use some of your Celtic/ Wild Hunt source material, you get elves with a Stone Age culture masked over with huge doses of illusion magic and time-bending effects.

They're not that long-lived, but they get pulled back into the Fey after a decade or two, spend a few days or a week or a year--who can tell time in eternal twilight?--and wander back out a hundred or a thousand years later.

In fact, remember the stories of faerie changelings? There's a decent chance that none of the Elves walking around your campaign world are actual bona fide Elves at all. That's just what a humanoid looks like when they grow up in the Faerie Kingdom.

[Particle_Man]

You know what? I'd bet a few red/green Slaad ARE elves that were mutated by Slaad disease.

With a fondness for duct tape.

[Willie the Duck]

Well, it's hard to imagine something that you couldn't fit under one of those two.

I'm saying the middle is routinely excluded. Dwarves, halflings, certainly humans in D&D routine get roles in the messy middle, while elves are routinely given spoltlight roles at the extremes.

[KorvinStarmast]

For a while I made the leap that Tolkien's elves were informed by the Irish Tuatha de danann as being the long lived race of supernatural powers who preceded humans. ... but I don't think I've found a lot of scholarship to back that up in terms of Tolkien saying "yeah, that's where they come from."

Still, with his deep understanding of story telling, legend, and philology, I suspect he was not unaware of that archetype.

[johnbragg]

I'm saying the middle is routinely excluded. Dwarves, halflings, certainly humans in D&D routine get roles in the messy middle, while elves are routinely given spotlight roles at the extremes.

I think that's because elves are too close to humans.

Halflings are short, dwarves live underground, so if your halflings are just gypsies or just countryside Englishmen and your dwarves are just Scottish vikings, nobody really minds, because just "being 3 feet tall" or "living underground" is enough distinction. Gnomes are 3' tall, and either crazy mechanics or bunny-hugging woodland hippies.

Elves aren't that distinct, image-wise from humans. Plenty of humans in their height range, plenty of humans with whatever skin and hair color you care to give your elves. If you don't give the elves a really alien-seeming culture, one that wouldn't work if you filled it with humans, they don't feel any different than humans. So they get pushed into the Mary Sue/Cool Older Cousin race position where everybody loves them (even, deep down, the gruff dwarves), or the 80s Movie Villain position--sorta-Nazis with the stat boosts and lifespans to back up their racism.

[Millstone85]

plenty of humans with whatever skin and hair color you care to give your elves.I doubt that. According to the PHB, some high elves have alabaster skin tinged with blue, and some wood elves have copperish skin with traces of green. High elves can also have blue hair. Then there are dark elves, who are typically depicted with purplish grey skin.

[King of Nowhere]

the real question is, how many other monsters are cursed [not-elves]? are cursed elves over-represented among monstrous population?

[Rukelnikov]

the real question is, how many other monsters are cursed [not-elves]? are cursed elves over-represented among monstrous population?

This, what's the elven/non-elven monster ratio?

[samcifer]

The knife-ears had it coming.

[JackPhoenix]

Nothics are cursed wizards of unspecified original race, so some of them probably were elves, especially since elves seem predisposed to wizardry.

Well, at that point, we may as well count lycanthropes.

[Millstone85]

the real question is, how many other monsters are cursed [not-elves]? are cursed elves over-represented among monstrous population?For a sometimes loose definition of "cursed", here is what comes to mind.

Darklings hail from a fey court whose lord betrayed the Summer Queen. She cursed them all to wizen when exposed to light.

Duergar used to be the name of a dwarven clan. They delved too greedily and too deep, until they were enslaved and experimented on by illithids.

Fomorians once had beauty and brain. Both were taken away from them by a collective fey curse, as retaliation for their attempt to conquer and enslave the Feywild.

Grimlocks were once humans, who fled into the Underdark like the illithids they worshiped.

Kenku were thrice-cursed by the mysterious master they betrayed, losing their wings, their creativity and their voices.

Quicklings once liked to take their time, and missed a few too many appointments with the Queen of Air and Darkness. Now they are cursed to race themselves to death.

Shadow dragons exist because the Shadowfell apparently likes to collect dragons, sometimes transporting them in their sleep.

Yuan-ti were once a rich human culture with an advanced philosophy based on detachment from emotion, inspired by the worship of serpents as totem animals. Then the serpent gods started answering prayers, and demanded that yuan-ti transform themselves.

[Luccan]

the real question is, how many other monsters are cursed [not-elves]? are cursed elves over-represented among monstrous population?

Not sure, but it seems that way. A lot of other cursed humanoids (when not a subrace) seem to come from varied stock. I could see humans overtaking them, but mostly because humans tend to get the most cultures in D&D lore and a lot of cultures get cursed in lore as well. But like, dwarves have duergar and...? Gnomes and halflings don't seem to have any notably cursed cousins. Even standard evil races don't come under curses that often, with maybe a few that do get cursed having more than one cursed version.

Meanwhile, elves have had at least 5 unique curses in 5e alone. I would not be surprised if in all of D&D lore they came out ahead of all other non-humans and even gave humans a run for their money.

[Fable Wright]

I'm saying the middle is routinely excluded. Dwarves, halflings, certainly humans in D&D routine get roles in the messy middle, while elves are routinely given spoltlight roles at the extremes.

Aereni elves are pretty squarely in the middle. They have a fascination with death after their exodus from the Giants and the nature of their destroyed feyspire, so they culturally embalm their greatest heroes as good-aligned Deathless... and the court of the Deathless looks out for Elf interests first and foremost. They're Good aligned, but not preachy, and few would argue that the books fawn over perfection when many of them have undergone surgery to mortify their flesh and look more like the dead.

[johnbragg]

I doubt that. According to the PHB, some high elves have alabaster skin tinged with blue, and some wood elves have copperish skin with traces of green. High elves can also have blue hair. Then there are dark elves, who are typically depicted with purplish grey skin.

....that's what I get for not reading the fluff in new editions. I think my point stands, though. I know people with alabaster skin and blue (dyed) hair. There is a country whose official ideology is that they are the Bronze Race, which isn't that different a color from copper. (No green traces, obviously.)

What I said about elves being very close to (some) humans doesn't really apply to the underdark-dwelling kinda-spider-people.

[Envyus]

Chitines/Cholodriths (when creating mutant slaves, do not accidentally do the thing your goddess does to people she's mad at)

That was not the reason for the curse. The reason the Chitines and Cholodriths turned against the Drow was because Lolth was pissed the Chitines were not dedicated to her at some point during their creation.

Also for another cursed Elf the Nagpa were originally thirteen elven wizards.

[No brains]

Gnomes and halflings don't seem to have any notably cursed cousins.

The Book of Vile Darkness gave us evil halflings that 'delight in hurting things from afar' or something like that. I wonder if attitude is a factor? Haughty elves and other beings may see themselves as 'cursed', but halflings might just be able to roll with the changes and accept their new lives. Like what if stout halflings were made by an act of malice and the halflings didn't really notice? :smalltongue:

I contend that gnomes ARE the evil race. Their mythic history is basically Garl Glittergold ruining the kobolds and stealing their place as a dominant people. The biggest trick gnomes ever pulled is convincing the rest of the world they were good. Seriously though, I don't see enough lore that reinforces gnomes as good.

I found another goodie or 'cursed elves': one that comes from a glitch in 5e core books. PHB gives us no sea-elves. Malenti are sahuagin who look just like sea elves and infiltrate sea elf communities. Communities that don't exist according to PHB, MM, or DMG. Conclusion: There are no sea elves. Only malenti in a paranoid shadow war the sahuagin wage on itself.

[Willie the Duck]

I think that's because elves are too close to humans.

Possibly. The why may or may not be important. That it occurred (specifically that there was a time period during D&D's formation where elves were either treated as the greatest thing since sliced bread or as insufferably arrogant ****s that only thought they were the greatest thing) seems to me to be a good part of the explanation why so much of the monster manual seems to have an elfin connection.


Elves aren't that distinct, image-wise from humans. Plenty of humans in their height range, plenty of humans with whatever skin and hair color you care to give your elves.


I doubt that. According to the PHB, some high elves have alabaster skin tinged with blue, and some wood elves have copperish skin with traces of green. High elves can also have blue hair. Then there are dark elves, who are typically depicted with purplish grey skin.


....that's what I get for not reading the fluff in new editions. I think my point stands, though. I know people with alabaster skin and blue (dyed) hair. There is a country whose official ideology is that they are the Bronze Race, which isn't that different a color from copper. (No green traces, obviously.)

Drow becoming purple instead of jet black occurred to make them less... problematic. The rest of it seems to have evolved from some 2e descriptions of elves as having various tints to their skin that I'm guessing were intended to describe variations within or close to within the human norm, but clearly were not taken that way by some readers (and future edition writers). Regardless, compared to the routinely-2-3' tall races or tieflings/dragonkin/etrc., elves still are fairly humanlike in presentation, so I agree, johnbragg, that it's reasonable that elves would need a second, personality-based hook or distinction.


Aereni elves are pretty squarely in the middle. They have a fascination with death after their exodus from the Giants and the nature of their destroyed feyspire, so they culturally embalm their greatest heroes as good-aligned Deathless... and the court of the Deathless looks out for Elf interests first and foremost. They're Good aligned, but not preachy, and few would argue that the books fawn over perfection when many of them have undergone surgery to mortify their flesh and look more like the dead.

'Exodus from the Giants' makes me assume that this is a late-3e or 4e creation. And that's really when things kind of turned around and depictions started to change. Not only had the 'elves are so great' era come to a close, but the reactive 'no, elves are a bunch of jerks' counterphase had become old hat. Seems like about the right time for some elven depictions more complex than 'Tolkein awesomeness' or the subversion thereof.

[False God]

I found another goodie or 'cursed elves': one that comes from a glitch in 5e core books. PHB gives us no sea-elves. Malenti are sahuagin who look just like sea elves and infiltrate sea elf communities. Communities that don't exist according to PHB, MM, or DMG. Conclusion: There are no sea elves. Only malenti in a paranoid shadow war the sahuagin wage on itself.

And I am now totally in love with this idea and intend to include it in my undersea campaign.

[johnbragg]

Drow becoming purple instead of jet black occurred to make them less... problematic.

Probably so. I don't get that wavelength--nobody on real earth HAS the sort of jet-black skin that the 1E drow had, much less with white or bluish-white straight or feathered hair. And the drow tropes don't really overlap "black people" tropes.


Regardless, compared to the routinely-2-3' tall races or tieflings/dragonkin/etrc., elves still are fairly humanlike in presentation, so I agree, johnbragg, that it's reasonable that elves would need a second, personality-based hook or distinction.

Anime-colored hair and pointy ears don't cut it, so they have to be pushed beyond the limits of "stereotype of a human culture, turned up to 11." They have to be operating in a zone that recognizably human people couldn't really function in.


(Eberron elves)

Yeah. "Undead worshippers, but not super-evil undead" is something that you could pull off with humans, but it helps a lot that they're already long-lived.