Hell or annihilation

[Conradine]

Let me quote:


Why do they do it?

One of the mysteries of the multiverse is why any person in her right mind would choose a lawful evil alignment and devil worship. Who wants to go to Baator and suffer horrific torments, only to be boiled down into expendable energy and used to spawn a pathetic, mindless lemure?

First of all, few inhabitants of a D&D world, even devil cultists, have access to accurate information about the afterlife. Most lawful evil characters envision the Nine Hells as a place much like the everyday world, except with higher, sharper mountains and a touch more brimstone in the air. One might have heard that souls are tormented there, but she assumes that her own special relationship with her local devils will somehow exempt her from such treatment. After all, high-ranking minions of evil universally regard them as special and indispensable.

Characters might also be aware that lawful evil souls become devils after death, but not that their identities are painfully extracted and obliterated in the process. Arrogantly certain of their ability to scale the diabolical heirarchy, they reckon that they will quickly zoom to pit fiend status, retaining their earthly personalities and memories in the process. Neither evil kings nor fanatical cult leaders look at a lemure and imagine it to be their most likely eternal form.


Let's say the cosmology is the one of Fiendish Codex.

Let's say we take an Evil person who's about to die and who didn't know what hell exactly is before.
That person is showed through magic what it is and explained what it means: torture, loss of identity, then becoming a nearly mindless lemure.

Redemption is no more an option. Too late, and the evil person feels only fear, not remorse anyway.

The only loophole is that the evil person can have his soul destroyed ( by fueling a magical item creation or similar stuff ) instead.

So, given the choice, on 100 people, how many would choose to go to Hell and how many would choose to have their soul annihilated instead?

[Elkad]

Spawn as a lemure, and then advance to be a Pit Fiend! Or even a Duke of Hell!*

*Oh sure, it might take a billion years, but it could happen. And compared to eternity, a billion years is nothing.

[Conradine]

First, also one chance in a billion to survive long enough, since the mortality between devils in the long war against demons is quite high.

Second, even if you do, to become a pit fiend you must roast for 1001 days in a fire so hot that for most devils is an unbearable torture.

Third, even if you can manage that... it's not more you, your individuality is long gone.

Last, and worst, who can endure even the thought of unspeakable torture 'till mind is gone?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This is practically what immortality was made for. And it's not exactly difficult in 3e. There are literally dozens of ways to get it, some of them quite cheap and easy.

Lawful they might be, but they're also Evil. If they're not cheating, they're doing it wrong.

[Conradine]

As Xykon said, "whatever necessary to avoid the Big Fire Below".

[Elkad]

First, also one chance in a billion to survive long enough, since the mortality between devils in the long war against demons is quite high.

Second, even if you do, to become a pit fiend you must roast for 1001 days in a fire so hot that for most devils is an unbearable torture.

Third, even if you can manage that... it's not more you, your individuality is long gone.

Last, and worst, who can endure even the thought of unspeakable torture 'till mind is gone?


https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/840/283/350.png

[Segev]

Yeah, as described, this choice is "quick annihilation" or "slow, painful annihilation." :smallfrown:

[Willie the Duck]

Third, even if you can manage that... it's not more you, your individuality is long gone.

This, I feel, is the crux of the decision point for the evil individual. Do they consider this thing, that happens to, in some way, be their 'soul,' but has nothing of them left in it, is still them (Y/N?). If not, both options are consigning themselves to oblivion. If so, than it will depend on whether the torture is so great that 'even nothingness is better than this.'

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I imagine that a lot of Evil creatures are nihilists, so oblivion would be preferable, if escaping that fate weren't an option. They may even prefer oblivion to eternal life without the horrors of the afterlife awaiting them (or even something resembling eternal paradise).

[unseenmage]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/840/283/350.png

I mean basically this.

Folks arent great at comprehending odds.
Lottery ticket sales prove that every day.

[weckar]

This, I feel, is the crux of the decision point for the evil individual. Do they consider this thing, that happens to, in some way, be their 'soul,' but has nothing of them left in it, is still them (Y/N?). If not, both options are consigning themselves to oblivion. If so, than it will depend on whether the torture is so great that 'even nothingness is better than this.'

I agree. I think it very much depends on the person.

If they hold great affinity with devils and their kin, having their essence serving them after they themselves truly cease to exist may be an honor--and not an expensive one.

On the other hand; if they would be the type who would choose to repent if it were possible, or who sees their soul do more good in the hands of the earthly in the form of a magic item; that choice makes more sense.

[gkathellar]

Definitely oblivion. Baator is by far the worst deal in the Planes, for all of the reasons outlined above.

[the_david]

Honestly, I find the whole "you forget your previous life" kinda dull. I'd rule that you'd only remember your lawful evil acts when you go to hell. (Or appropriate alignment for whichever plane.) But even if most souls lose all their memories, some don't.


The deities may choose particular servants for specific tasks that may retain the knowledge of their previous selves. These exceptional petitioners retain the feats and skills they had in life, but are otherwise limited as for the petitioners of their plane.

Either way, imagine your players killed that villain early on. It doesn't even have to be a big villain, in fact it might have been just a cultist who didn't know what he was getting into. He might have had remorse over selling his soul.
He blames the PCs that killed him for his predicament. He rises through the ranks of hell as quickly as he can, so that one day he can take revenge on the one that killed him.

Now that's a villain.

[pabelfly]

I like Mario Puzo's mafia novels. Several of the characters in his various novels fully believe they are going to go to hell for their sins when they die, but they continue to act the way they do to ensure that their family will have a better life and better opportunities than what they had.

I could see something like that motivating a character. Even if immortality is off the table, you can gain quite a lot by being evil, and there's no reason you couldn't use those gains to help your family and your friends and gain something for yourself in the material world while you were at it.

[Venger]

100 choose to go to hell. it's dnd. they can be rezd trivially.

[Conradine]

I'll give my 2 cents.

I think the overwhelming majority of people would choose annihilation if presented with visual proof of horrific torture. Scorched flesh, burning alive over and over, limbs ripped and the like. Seriously, it would took a psychotic level of indifference to pain in order to face this or an equally morbid terror of oblivion. Some may take the slim chance of evolving as devils for various reasons, mostly pride or obsessive desire for revenge.

But I can say that a percentage around 80-85% would choose annihilation if faced with impending death.


If death is but a distant option, then I think a more than reasonable share of people would be able to delude themselves they're going to cheat the system somehow. Quite a lot, since the system can be cheated, although not so easily.

Undeath would suddendly become much more popular between the erudite evils.

[Cruiser1]

Let's say we take an Evil person who's about to die and who didn't know what hell exactly is before. That person is showed through magic what it is and explained what it means: torture, loss of identity, then becoming a nearly mindless lemure.The problem is that many Evil people when presented with evidence will refuse to believe it. They'll think it's Celestial propaganda or high level illusions. Compare to how many in Real Life strongly reject any information that suggests their current beliefs might be wrong, and as result call it Fake News and such.

[tiercel]

Let's say the cosmology is the one of Fiendish Codex.

Let's say we take an Evil person who's about to die and who didn't know what hell exactly is before.
That person is showed through magic what it is and explained what it means: torture, loss of identity, then becoming a nearly mindless lemure.

Redemption is no more an option. Too late, and the evil person feels only fear, not remorse anyway.

The only loophole is that the evil person can have his soul destroyed ( by fueling a magical item creation or similar stuff ) instead.

So, given the choice, on 100 people, how many would choose to go to Hell and how many would choose to have their soul annihilated instead?

Well, let me finish the quote from the same source:


In a few rare cases, an exceptionally evil person might receive an automatic promotion to a higher devil form. Thus, a band of ad-venturers might conceivably slay a tyrant, only to see him return as a mighty devil. Such a transformation is rare, but it can happen.

The point being, as long as there is any reason to believe there really is a chance of “I get sexy new devil powers, as myself,” then someone with a truly diabolic mindset is likely to be arrogant enough to believe “....and I am that exception.”

[Mr Adventurer]

This is practically what immortality was made for. And it's not exactly difficult in 3e. There are literally dozens of ways to get it, some of them quite cheap and easy.

Dozens? I only know about five - what 24+ ways am I missing?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dozens? I only know about five - what 24+ ways am I missing?Depends on which ones you know.

[Mr Adventurer]

Depends on which ones you know.

Undeath
Elan
Green Star Adept
Polymorph shenanigans
Mind switch shenanigans
Excessive application of Steal Life
Is there a PrC about living on a mountain that gives you immortality? EDIT: found it, Cloud Anchorite in Frostburn

So, maybe six or seven it turns out.

[magic9mushroom]

Undeath
Elan
Green Star Adept
Polymorph shenanigans
Mind switch shenanigans
Excessive application of Steal Life
Is there a PrC about living on a mountain that gives you immortality? EDIT: found it, Cloud Anchorite in Frostburn

So, maybe six or seven it turns out.

If you want to inflate the count you can split up "undeath" into the various different ways (play pattycake with the various spawn-creating undead, research the various means of lichdom, arrange for one of the ways to die that tends to cause you to rise spontaneously), or even further into each specific species.

Most of these aren't safe enough to avoid Hell/the Abyss, though; removing old age and disease might give you a few hundred years, but you'll still die eventually from something. If you really want to live forever, lichdom and ghosthood are generally the best due to the respawn mechanic. Being a Vampire Lord is third place, although becoming one of those requires two instances of outright DM fiat (you have to rebel against your sire, which is straight-up impossible according to the rules; then, one of your own spawn has to likewise rebel against you).

EDIT: another means of immortality is godhood, although obtaining this is difficult and you can still be killed (dead gods don't appear to get tortured in Hell, though, so... mission accomplished?).

[NichG]

Undeath
Elan
Green Star Adept
Polymorph shenanigans
Mind switch shenanigans
Excessive application of Steal Life
Is there a PrC about living on a mountain that gives you immortality? EDIT: found it, Cloud Anchorite in Frostburn

So, maybe six or seven it turns out.

Periodically have yourself Reincarnated. Spend your days living on the Astral plane. Forced Dream psicrystal shenanigans (keep reliving the same 30 years like Groundhog Day). Get yourself soul-trapped (unclear if this works, but the text says that it traps the target 'indefinitely' which might suggest that effectively time doesn't pass for you in this state). Savage Species rituals to change your race into something effectively immortal (some form of full Outsider, for example).

Actually, to the original question, changing your race directly to an Outsider via that ritual is probably the best afterlife-dodge. Even if you're just making yourself into a lemure because that's all you can afford, you'd at least be able to avoid having your persona stripped away by Lethe and would be able to inject yourself into the afterlife at the location of your choosing (say, Sigil...). And as an Outsider, if you die, you don't leave a soul; but at the same time, there are still spells that can bring you back if that happens. Honestly, this is a reasonable idea even for Good-aligned characters, since even Good-aligned souls get turned into petitioners, reset to level 1, and (if they don't get promoted to Outsider) eventually merge with the plane they end up in.

Another option would be to make sure you get killed by a Thinaun weapon.

Still, if you're caught without any cheats up your sleeve, escape clauses, or allies left in power, definitely oblivion. It's unlikely someone will just randomly choose to rez you on a whim. Evil is basically a bet that cosmic rules only apply because people accept them without a fight - if you aren't intending to cheat, you're doing it wrong.

[Mr Adventurer]

If you want to inflate the count you can split up "undeath" into the various different ways (play pattycake with the various spawn-creating undead, research the various means of lichdom, arrange for one of the ways to die that tends to cause you to rise spontaneously), or even further into each specific species.

Nah, that would be disingenuous I think. We're talking about ways after all, not specific action chains, I reckon.


Most of these aren't safe enough to avoid Hell/the Abyss, though; removing old age and disease might give you a few hundred years, but you'll still die eventually from something. If you really want to live forever, lichdom and ghosthood are generally the best due to the respawn mechanic. Being a Vampire Lord is third place, although becoming one of those requires two instances of outright DM fiat (you have to rebel against your sire, which is straight-up impossible according to the rules; then, one of your own spawn has to likewise rebel against you).

A separate and very good point.


Periodically have yourself Reincarnated. Spend your days living on the Astral plane. Forced Dream psicrystal shenanigans (keep reliving the same 30 years like Groundhog Day). Get yourself soul-trapped (unclear if this works, but the text says that it traps the target 'indefinitely' which might suggest that effectively time doesn't pass for you in this state). Savage Species rituals to change your race into something effectively immortal (some form of full Outsider, for example).

Missed Reincarnation, true.

Astral Plane feels like one of those "technically works" things - but you'd need to be able to Astral Project to be able to do much else.

Not familiar with Forced Dream shenanigans but seems like a bit of a half-life if you can't perceive or react to external stimulus.

Soul-trapping is definitely not a good way to live!

Savage Species is 3.0 material so isn't used at my tables, at least...

I accidentally clipped it but Thinaun holds your soul but seems super precarious!

[Conradine]

I would say...


01-40: "annihilation please"
40-60: "no, I'm not going to die now! There must be a cure, a way to stay alive another year or two!"
60-80: "no, this must be false. I don't believe Hell is so bad."
80-90: "I was so cool and evil in life, I'm sure I'll get promoted immediately and skip the torture"
90-95: " I was really evil, I can take the torture then I0ll get promoted soon and I'll find a way to recover my memories"
95-00: "I'll take it like a man! Bring it on, Hell!"

[NichG]

Missed Reincarnation, true.

Astral Plane feels like one of those "technically works" things - but you'd need to be able to Astral Project to be able to do much else.

I mean, if the alternatives are oblivion, being tortured into oblivion, or living a Good life and then still getting oblivion...

Generally speaking, interacting with the world as an unrepentantly Evil character is just a good way to get a hero squad on your case, and they can be creative with ways to end you. Hanging out on the Astral and keeping to yourself is generally going to be a safer retirement plan. If you really want to live dangerously, you can always get involved with the Githyanki.



Not familiar with Forced Dream shenanigans but seems like a bit of a half-life if you can't perceive or react to external stimulus.


The trick here is that you have your psicrystal manifest it, and iirc there's part of the trick where you use Time Hop and some contingencies cued to 'returning to the timestream' to stretch it's turn across hours or days. Then if the psicrystal sees that things have gone badly, it can reset time to the start of that period. So you're fully aware and functional, though I guess you don't remember alternate loops except for whatever indirect experiences you can stash in your psicrystal. I thought there was a way to get longer than a day, but it looks like that might be tricky (Use quintessence or Temporal Stasis or something? Dunno if that would work).



Soul-trapping is definitely not a good way to live!


Again, if your alternatives are oblivion and torture to oblivion...



Savage Species is 3.0 material so isn't used at my tables, at least...

I accidentally clipped it but Thinaun holds your soul but seems super precarious!

Yeah, you definitely want to make sure that weapon doesn't get carted around into any battles after it's absorbed you. I've seen reference to a gimmick where you capture with a Thinaun weapon, then do a permanent PaO to change the material type - that post seemed to suggest they thought it would destroy the soul, but I don't know if there's anything that says that a Thinaun object has to remain Thinaun to continue to hold onto the soul (though arguably you could say that this 'destroys' the original object).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Store your body on a timeless demiplane and astrally project yourself (preferably via a nightmare that has been rendered into a loyal ally through one of various means.

Transplant an oak tree to the astral plane or another timeless plane (preferably one that's timeless with regards to magic, too) and take an acorn of far travel (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a) everywhere you go.

Build yourself a stronghold on a timeless plane, then live there nigh-on forever.

Be a Dragonwrought kobold and take levels in dragon ascendant for DvR 0.

Pun-Pun your way to immortality.

Be an illithid. Take illithid savant. Eat something immortal. I favor the tarrasque's regeneration for this. (Get spellblade poison rings of wish and miracle for immunities to those spells.)

Be an elan monk, druid, or other class with timeless body (for eternal youth), although if you don't care about being old forever, just elan is fine.

Be a warforged.

Be a neraph.

Be a necropolitan.

Be a ghost.

Be a lich.

Be a vampire.

Be a chain-spawned undead and take emancipated spawn.

BoVD and other sources have expanded rules for what can be done with bestow curse and its greater variant. One of those uses is to increase the target's age category by one. Note that those spells explicitly allow you to inflict effects of similar power, and reducing one's age category is just as powerful as increasing it. This means you can periodically reduce your age category by 1 whenever you feel like being younger.

Clone explicitly de-ages you if it's been awhile since you cast it. Just make sure you get a thought bottle to store your XP level before you make use of it.

The kissed by the ages spell makes you immortal.

The Wedded to History feat...might do it? My magic 8 ball says it's unclear.

Be a druid. Make a pact with a cabal of druids. Any time one of you dies, the others cast reincarnate on you. If you start getting too old, sacrificially in/exhume yourself and proceed to be reincarnated. Also, contingency reincarnate, if you have access to a wizard but no druid cabal. Or Extra Spell (Contingency) [or reincarnate, if you have contingency natively].

Mind switch/murder. Alternatively, true mind switch (but this is vastly more costly). If you have a psicrystal, manifest metamorphosis on it to something not immune to [mind-affecting] effects, then mind switch/true mind switch on it. You're now an immortal construct.

Magic jar shenanigans, along with things like trap the soul and soul bind. Then preserve your body so it's well-protected. Or just polymorph any object a statue into a real boy and magic jar that.

Actually, polymorph any object itself has numerous uses for this, if used directly.

A psychoactive skin of proteus allows you to constantly be under the effects of metamorphosis, which defaults you to a young adult body (or, if you're transforming into a creature with age categories, like a dragon, whichever age category you choose). You could get a skin, or better yet, have one perma-installed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook/page11&p=23285432#post23285432). If you're worried about dispelling or antimagic fields, have it made into a nonmagical Device, from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood, with a built-in battery. Either way, renew it at least every few years so you're always youthful. Even if the DM says this doesn't usually work, you can turn into a younger dragon, which explicitly is a specific age.

Buy tons of bonus feats and use some of them for the epic feat Extended Life Span. (Definitely not my preferred choice, but it's an option.)

Take levels in vermin lord and become a hivemind. Note that you can cheat your way into hiveminding a bunch of low-HD humanoids or other critters together by casting aspect of the wolf on them to count as the animal type. Give 'em all acorns of far travel from an astral bonsai oak tree so they all count as being in one 5' space. Then hivemind 'em. You're now a hivemind with a bunch of (potentially much younger and immortal) bodies, and if your old body dies, you should live on as the hivemind.

Isn't there a magical plant that, if eaten, grants immortality? Minor creation should make one for you. Otherwise, I believe there's a flower that grants a wish in Faerun you can do this with.

There are a lot more, but I've got limited time to recount them, and even I don't know them all, partly because there are so damned many of them.

That's also not the only way to get out of being hellbound. If all else fails, a helm of opposite alignment (or other means of changing your alignment to non-Evil) will turn you Good. Then spend time making up for your misdeeds so you go to a Goodly plane when you die, cheating the fiends out of their prize.

[Conradine]

Isn't there a magical plant that, if eaten, grants immortality? Minor creation should make one for you.

Never heard of that one - and I made lots research about immortality ( both in game and in real life ).

[Barastur]

Let me quote:

Let's say the cosmology is the one of Fiendish Codex.

Let's say we take an Evil person who's about to die and who didn't know what hell exactly is before.
That person is showed through magic what it is and explained what it means: torture, loss of identity, then becoming a nearly mindless lemure.

Redemption is no more an option. Too late, and the evil person feels only fear, not remorse anyway.

The only loophole is that the evil person can have his soul destroyed ( by fueling a magical item creation or similar stuff ) instead.

So, given the choice, on 100 people, how many would choose to go to Hell and how many would choose to have their soul annihilated instead?

That stuff is not cheap and away from the wildest dreams of most ordinary folk.

Also they don't care.

Most people irl have the potential of having a fit and healthy body but they don't care because it's long term while the short term pleasures are better and more interesting. Same deal here.

Also I'm not sure how wide spread information about other planes is in most D&D setting. I don't think every peasant ans commoner has a copy of the guide of the planes. Most people probably can't even read.


I like Mario Puzo's mafia novels. Several of the characters in his various novels fully believe they are going to go to hell for their sins when they die, but they continue to act the way they do to ensure that their family will have a better life and better opportunities than what they had.

I could see something like that motivating a character. Even if immortality is off the table, you can gain quite a lot by being evil, and there's no reason you couldn't use those gains to help your family and your friends and gain something for yourself in the material world while you were at it.

That's actually very cool.


I'll give my 2 cents.

I think the overwhelming majority of people would choose annihilation if presented with visual proof of horrific torture. Scorched flesh, burning alive over and over, limbs ripped and the like. Seriously, it would took a psychotic level of indifference to pain in order to face this or an equally morbid terror of oblivion. Some may take the slim chance of evolving as devils for various reasons, mostly pride or obsessive desire for revenge.

But I can say that a percentage around 80-85% would choose annihilation if faced with impending death.


If death is but a distant option, then I think a more than reasonable share of people would be able to delude themselves they're going to cheat the system somehow. Quite a lot, since the system can be cheated, although not so easily.

Undeath would suddendly become much more popular between the erudite evils.

If hell is eternal. Eh big deal, humans are highly adaptable creatures, you CAN get used to pain. After 100 years of boiling cauldrons and hot iron spokes in your skin that **** gets dull.

People are afraid of that stuff IRL because of death and the uncertainty of death. If death is not the end why be sacred of it?

That's why the idea of hell makes no sense at all. Like wtf? If the population of doomed souls is much larger and numerous than the devils why they don't revolt? Even weak larvae can be a powerful if they got the numbers.

If hell is not eternal and you can have a second death and reincarnate, well who cares? If you were evil enough to be condemned to hell you are more then used to hellish environments. So this is only a temporary set back.



The point being, as long as there is any reason to believe there really is a chance of “I get sexy new devil powers, as myself,” then someone with a truly diabolic mindset is likely to be arrogant enough to believe “....and I am that exception.”

That's too true.


Undeath
Elan
Green Star Adept
Polymorph shenanigans
Mind switch shenanigans
Excessive application of Steal Life
Is there a PrC about living on a mountain that gives you immortality? EDIT: found it, Cloud Anchorite in Frostburn

So, maybe six or seven it turns out.

-Warlock pact of the undying.
-Living in the astral plane since it has no time.
-A 14th level transmuter can restore 3d10 years to anyone at no cost.
-Oath of the Ancients paladin stops aging at 15th level.


Never heard of that one - and I made lots research about immortality ( both in game and in real life ).

Are you sure? Giving your avatar and signature.

[Segev]

On the topic of exceptions being promoted instantly to a powerful devil-form, I tend to assume that this is related to the HD, class levels, and possible patronage of higher-powered Entities who receive you. So that evil tyrant is most likely to return as a Horned Devil or the like if he was a reasonably high-level character when he was slain. But even a petty level 1 Aristocrat might get that promotion if he'd really, really pleased his archdevil patron and Mammon decided to directly transform him into a higher-order Devil by infusing the soul with hellish power once Mammon received it.

I have my own complicated theories on how more powerful outsiders form from lesser ones, but that's for another thread.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Never heard of that one - and I made lots research about immortality ( both in game and in real life ).Maybe I was thinking the golden apples from Greek myth.

Or...wasn't it in Dragon Magazine? I seem to recall having read about it a looooong time ago.

[unseenmage]

Maybe I was thinking the golden apples from Greek myth.

Or...wasn't it in Dragon Magazine? I seem to recall having read about it a looooong time ago.
Dragon 149 page 96

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dragon 149 page 96You are complete hax, man. Thanks.

[edit] Hmm. I don't think that was it.

[Conradine]

I've checked both Dungeon Magazine and Dragon Magazine, 149, pag 96, but I found nothing.

[Eldonauran]

I can only offer my personal opinion on the matter, but I would choose Hell over Annihilation. While existence lasts, there is always a chance for something. Annihilation is final and this one does not embrace it.

[unseenmage]

There arent any stats. Its mentioned in the Time Marches On article at the top of page 97.

Golden apples are also mentioned in the blurb at the front of the magazine describing said article.

Sorry, am at work on mobile or would have elaborated

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1179.0) and here (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=5996.0) are more things for immortality (along with several that overlap with what we've discussed so far).

[Mr Adventurer]

I mean, if the alternatives are oblivion, being tortured into oblivion, or living a Good life and then still getting oblivion...

Generally speaking, interacting with the world as an unrepentantly Evil character is just a good way to get a hero squad on your case, and they can be creative with ways to end you. Hanging out on the Astral and keeping to yourself is generally going to be a safer retirement plan. If you really want to live dangerously, you can always get involved with the Githyanki.

True. I didn't really mean to pick holes, although I can see that I kind of ended up doing that. Confined to the Astral for all eternity is a special kind of self-imprisonment, though.


The trick here is that you have your psicrystal manifest it, and iirc there's part of the trick where you use Time Hop and some contingencies cued to 'returning to the timestream' to stretch it's turn across hours or days. Then if the psicrystal sees that things have gone badly, it can reset time to the start of that period. So you're fully aware and functional, though I guess you don't remember alternate loops except for whatever indirect experiences you can stash in your psicrystal. I thought there was a way to get longer than a day, but it looks like that might be tricky (Use quintessence or Temporal Stasis or something? Dunno if that would work).

Oh, the "save point" trick? Yes, I've heard of that. So... you and everyone in the world knows that you're reliving the same time period over and over, right? Kind of an odd way to try and spend eternity - plus seems vulnerable to interruption, possibly.


Again, if your alternatives are oblivion and torture to oblivion...

Actually seems pretty similar to me - the premise is escaping Hell forever, so, you're bound for eternity: if while bound you aren't conscious, that's functionally oblivion. If you are conscious, then seems like it'd soon become torture...


Yeah, you definitely want to make sure that weapon doesn't get carted around into any battles after it's absorbed you. I've seen reference to a gimmick where you capture with a Thinaun weapon, then do a permanent PaO to change the material type - that post seemed to suggest they thought it would destroy the soul, but I don't know if there's anything that says that a Thinaun object has to remain Thinaun to continue to hold onto the soul (though arguably you could say that this 'destroys' the original object).

Lots of ways for an unattended object to get messed with! Plus, as with binding, assuming you aren't conscious it's basically the same as oblivion anyway.


Store your body on a timeless demiplane and astrally project yourself (preferably via a nightmare that has been rendered into a loyal ally through one of various means.

Transplant an oak tree to the astral plane or another timeless plane (preferably one that's timeless with regards to magic, too) and take an acorn of far travel (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a) everywhere you go.

Build yourself a stronghold on a timeless plane, then live there nigh-on forever.

OK, these all seem like variations on a theme - originally "Astral Plane", but we can make that more accurately "Timeless Plane shenanigans".


Be a Dragonwrought kobold and take levels in dragon ascendant for DvR 0.

Yep, good one... if Dragonwrought Kobold qualifies you to take the PrC. I believe there have been multiple threads arguing the toss.


Pun-Pun your way to immortality.

No, I don't think that's an appropriate response. "Pun-pun" is simply an absurd thing to propose as a solution to a problem in a game meant to be played.


Be an illithid. Take illithid savant. Eat something immortal. I favor the tarrasque's regeneration for this. (Get spellblade poison rings of wish and miracle for immunities to those spells.)

The Tarrasque's regeneration actually doesn't say anything about immortality or old age. Here's the SRD:


Regeneration (Ex)
No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.

The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.

If the tarrasque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.


Be an elan monk, druid, or other class with timeless body (for eternal youth), although if you don't care about being old forever, just elan is fine.

Yes, I mentioned Elan.


Be a warforged.

The question is about how to become immortal. So, this is just a variation on "polymorph shenanigans", which are already mentioned.


Be a neraph.

My dude, Neraph have a maximum age listed of 250 years plus 2d100 years.


Be a necropolitan.

Be a ghost.

Be a lich.

Be a vampire.

Be a chain-spawned undead and take emancipated spawn.

Yes, we had "become undead" already.


BoVD and other sources have expanded rules for what can be done with bestow curse and its greater variant. One of those uses is to increase the target's age category by one. Note that those spells explicitly allow you to inflict effects of similar power, and reducing one's age category is just as powerful as increasing it. This means you can periodically reduce your age category by 1 whenever you feel like being younger.

Increasing is different to decreasing; the effects of increasing age category are different to decreasing age category. I don't believe your argument is a fair one.


Clone explicitly de-ages you if it's been awhile since you cast it. Just make sure you get a thought bottle to store your XP level before you make use of it.

Yes, OK, if Thought Bottles are being allowed. Good catch.


The kissed by the ages spell makes you immortal.

I'm not familiar with this spell, where is it from?


The Wedded to History feat...might do it? My magic 8 ball says it's unclear.

Yes, I think I have that Dragon mag - even though it's supposed to be basically the only thing it does do, I'm not sure if it works.


Be a druid. Make a pact with a cabal of druids. Any time one of you dies, the others cast reincarnate on you. If you start getting too old, sacrificially in/exhume yourself and proceed to be reincarnated. Also, contingency reincarnate, if you have access to a wizard but no druid cabal. Or Extra Spell (Contingency) [or reincarnate, if you have contingency natively].

Yes, we had Reincarnate already.


Mind switch/murder. Alternatively, true mind switch (but this is vastly more costly). If you have a psicrystal, manifest metamorphosis on it to something not immune to [mind-affecting] effects, then mind switch/true mind switch on it. You're now an immortal construct.

Yes, I mentioned Mind Switch shenanigans.


Magic jar shenanigans, along with things like trap the soul and soul bind. Then preserve your body so it's well-protected. Or just polymorph any object a statue into a real boy and magic jar that.

Magic Jar has a duration so I'm not sure how this works?


Actually, polymorph any object itself has numerous uses for this, if used directly.

A psychoactive skin of proteus allows you to constantly be under the effects of metamorphosis, which defaults you to a young adult body (or, if you're transforming into a creature with age categories, like a dragon, whichever age category you choose). You could get a skin, or better yet, have one perma-installed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook/page11&p=23285432#post23285432). If you're worried about dispelling or antimagic fields, have it made into a nonmagical Device, from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood, with a built-in battery. Either way, renew it at least every few years so you're always youthful. Even if the DM says this doesn't usually work, you can turn into a younger dragon, which explicitly is a specific age.

Yes, I mentioned "Polymorph shenanigans".

I don't have the sourcebook but I thought Devices were explicitly immobile and enormous.


Buy tons of bonus feats and use some of them for the epic feat Extended Life Span. (Definitely not my preferred choice, but it's an option.)

This isn't immortality, just a very extended lifespan.


Take levels in vermin lord and become a hivemind. Note that you can cheat your way into hiveminding a bunch of low-HD humanoids or other critters together by casting aspect of the wolf on them to count as the animal type. Give 'em all acorns of far travel from an astral bonsai oak tree so they all count as being in one 5' space. Then hivemind 'em. You're now a hivemind with a bunch of (potentially much younger and immortal) bodies, and if your old body dies, you should live on as the hivemind.

Acorn of Far Travel has a duration, and furthermore the benefits only extend to the spellcaster. Likewise, Aspect of the Wolf is personal-range.


There are a lot more, but I've got limited time to recount them, and even I don't know them all, partly because there are so damned many of them.

OK, so, discounting the ones already covered I make this about 1-2 new ways for sure, and three to four that I don't understand or are maybes. I don't even know if we're at 12 ways, yet, let alone the 24+ or 36+ you'd expect from the "literally dozens" you claimed.

And this is your claim, so the burden of proof is on you.

I don't think your claim is correct.

[Mr Adventurer]

-Warlock pact of the undying.
-Living in the astral plane since it has no time.
-A 14th level transmuter can restore 3d10 years to anyone at no cost.
-Oath of the Ancients paladin stops aging at 15th level.

This is the 3/3.5 edition board.

[Psyren]

There's some key factors we're not considering here that cause Hell's arithmetic to make a lot more sense in most D&D settings:

Hell's economy: Hell is ultimately set up to value quantity over quality. Yes, they want the powerful souls of very high-level characters if they can get them. But they're fine making deals with and corrupting less consequential mortals, like NPCs (commoners, experts, aristocrats, warriors), whose souls are just as useful, especially in bulk. The vast majority of these folks are what the FC2 passage is referring to - they have no clear picture of the afterlife, i.e. few to no ranks in Religion or Planes, low Int/Wis due to standard array, few metaphysical concerns that outweigh putting bread on their tables etc. Which leads us to:

D&D settlements and populations: Someone performed a great analysis (https://alzrius.wordpress.com/2016/07/16/demographics-in-dd-another-look/) of average 3.5 populations using the DMG population tables. From that analysis we can see that in a typical kingdom, you end up with roughly 70% of your population living outside of large towns, 85% outside of cities. That's roughly millions of people in rural areas and hundreds of thousands in urban centers - a world that would look foreign to us today, but one that is ripe for diabolic influence. This is compounded by:

Clerics are spread thin: Especially the Good ones who know the score and are trying to save people; the DMG Web Enhancement that breaks down city demographics further into districts gives us a rough sense of what percentage of a city's population are clerics, paladins, and adepts. These divine servants are woefully outnumbered even in an urban environment, and a good portion of those are either neutral or evil themselves and thus don't really care where their followers' souls end up as long as they further their deities' agenda while alive. And again, that's in a city where you can reliably find and train such classes - in a rural environment, you're lucky if you get a hedgewoman or shaman to tend to the spiritual needs of the people, and Good-aligned divine messengers are even more diluted. Probably less popular too - when the evil ones are preaching things like personal wealth and hedonism, while the boring squares are preaching how we need to share with each other and sacrifice, it's tough to see the majority signing up for the latter and giving the former a wide berth. And even in settlements where you've got a goodly messenger, you've probably got a fiend targeting that place eventually in order to score a win (unless the heroes intervene in time.)

TL;DR it's easy to see why FC2's statement, that most simply don't know or don't take it seriously, makes sense. And that's the kind of crapsack world you really need for heroism to be as important as it is.


Honestly, I find the whole "you forget your previous life" kinda dull. I'd rule that you'd only remember your lawful evil acts when you go to hell. (Or appropriate alignment for whichever plane.) But even if most souls lose all their memories, some don't.

For starters, that's indeed how it works. Most forget their lives, some don't.

But second and more importantly, the way you describe it doesn't really change anything. If you lose everything from your life except the lawful evil stuff, then either (a) you do become a different person because you've lost everything else, or (b) there never was anything else, and so you as a devil is going to be pretty identical to you as a LE mortal; you were practically a devil when you were alive, just less red and horny horned.

[Segev]

I think it's actually likely that you'll find the "good message" from celestial servants having surprising grip on rural areas, because they also preach the word of "not raiding and pillaging." And it actually is more optimal to cooperate than raid and pillage as long as all parties stick to it, so the teachings, when held to, lead to happier, more prosperous rural areas.

But yes, there will always be bad apples eager to take the left hand path to wealth and power.

[Psyren]

I think it's actually likely that you'll find the "good message" from celestial servants having surprising grip on rural areas, because they also preach the word of "not raiding and pillaging." And it actually is more optimal to cooperate than raid and pillage as long as all parties stick to it, so the teachings, when held to, lead to happier, more prosperous rural areas.

But yes, there will always be bad apples eager to take the left hand path to wealth and power.

Indeed - and that good message, plus a solid dose of heroic intervention, is a big part of why Asmodeus hasn't already won. Like every other deal he makes, the Pact Primeval is slanted in his favor and the good guys are playing catch-up.

[Segev]

Indeed - and that good message, plus a solid dose of heroic intervention, is a big part of why Asmodeus hasn't already won. Like every other deal he makes, the Pact Primeval is slanted in his favor and the good guys are playing catch-up.

I am vastly amused by the notion of a game where a twist included was that the Pact Primeval was not as in his favor as he thought, but only because there was an even more obscure hyper-intelligent Good entity who was playing a much, much longer game than Azzy gave him credit for.

Maybe even Pelor, and all the "burning hate" evidence is going to be cleaned up and shown to be part of a genuine masterstroke for Good around the same time Azzy learns he's been had.

[NichG]

Not sure this one counts as the previous categories or not, but since the original question sort of asks whether or not the person considers their soul or their persona to be 'them', there are options such as Mind Seed into a vessel with a different alignment than yours, then have your original soul consigned to oblivion. If someone believes philosophically that the persona is what they associate with their identity, whereas the cosmology and associates the soul with identity, this would be a way to take advantage in that philosophical gap and skip out on the bill as it were.

It's kind of 'mind swap shenanigans' but I sorta think it deserves a special mention since, why stop at one? You could make a thousand 'you's, and survive by virtue of replicating faster than your copies can possibly be consigned to the hells.

[Mr Adventurer]

Not sure this one counts as the previous categories or not, but since the original question sort of asks whether or not the person considers their soul or their persona to be 'them', there are options such as Mind Seed into a vessel with a different alignment than yours, then have your original soul consigned to oblivion. If someone believes philosophically that the persona is what they associate with their identity, whereas the cosmology and associates the soul with identity, this would be a way to take advantage in that philosophical gap and skip out on the bill as it were.

It's kind of 'mind swap shenanigans' but I sorta think it deserves a special mention since, why stop at one? You could make a thousand 'you's, and survive by virtue of replicating faster than your copies can possibly be consigned to the hells.

The power is quite clear that the victim of Mind Seed becomes a new person, though, and explicitly an NPC to boot.

That might not stop people in the game world from trying the trick, though...

[NichG]

The power is quite clear that the victim of Mind Seed becomes a new person, though, and explicitly an NPC to boot.

That might not stop people in the game world from trying the trick, though...

If anything, that's why I think this is a philosophical gap. What does it mean to a person in the game world to no longer be controlled by the same player? If someone sees their personality and memories as the entirety of the part of themself that matters to preserve, 'jumping souls' would be as possible as 'jumping bodies'.

Mind Seed that persona into a upper plane bound host, wipe the persona of the original (might need a friend to provide a Feeblemind, Programmed Amnesia, Mind Rape, etc here), and no part of the thing you consider to be 'you' ever need be tortured to oblivion. If you could forcibly Mind Seed someone into your previous host, this would be a way to forcibly condemn Good personae to eternal torture and give LG conniptions trying to figure out what is just and proper in that case.

It's inferior to most forms of D&D immortality, but interesting.

[False God]

The power is quite clear that the victim of Mind Seed becomes a new person, though, and explicitly an NPC to boot.

That might not stop people in the game world from trying the trick, though...

A "new person" in the context of that they are capable of making their own decisions and forging their own destiny. Not a "new person" in the sense that they possess a completely different thought process, that would pretty much negate the function of the spell!

They may not make the exact choices the original does, or even face the same situations, but their approach to situations would likely be nearly identical. IE: If you're rational and scientific, the "other you" will be as well. At least until they've encountered enough situations to change that.

Also, @OP, if the choice was between ceasing to exist, and taking on some new form of existence, even if it's not "me" I'd take the new form of existence.

[Conradine]

But guys! It's not simply "taking a new form of existence", it's going through indescribable torture untill the mind is totally destroyed.
Well, mabye I overestimated the average fear of pain.

[Meditation]

Shadow Sun Ninja capstone, plus a swiftly-applied Helm of Opposite Alignment (and possibly a quick quest to a lower plane) gives you no-strings-attached* vampire template (*excluding the previously mentioned attached strings).

Cancer Mage has access to an immortal form at its capstone at the expense of being either a voyeur or tediously, eternally bored (or both).

The fact that civilization in D&D-land isn't utterly obsessed with the afterlife and immortality is patently absurd, especially since even "good" souls suffer fates worse than death in many cases. The upside of this oversight is that addressing it can lead to some really interesting homebrew settings.

[Venger]

Shadow Sun Ninja capstone, plus a swiftly-applied Helm of Opposite Alignment (and possibly a quick quest to a lower plane) gives you no-strings-attached* vampire template (*excluding the previously mentioned attached strings).
If you went via helm, you'd still be an npc. having your friends free your soul does give you an LA-less vamp template, but you have to suffer through 10 levels of shadow sun ninja, so you're coming out behind.


The fact that civilization in D&D-land isn't utterly obsessed with the afterlife and immortality is patently absurd, especially since even "good" souls suffer fates worse than death in many cases. The upside of this oversight is that addressing it can lead to some really interesting homebrew settings.
it literally is, though. the afterlife is an observable part of the natural world, and churches are the prevailing forces in most communities.

[Edreyn]

As far as I familiar with Planescape settings, in some cases souls can end up not in generic hell, but in a "private" territory of a deity.
We are talking about really evil people. Those who commit really evil things, will surely catch an interest from someone among deities. They can't get redemption, but maybe they can convince a cleric of same evil alignment, to pray and ask some evil deity to give shelter. As long as it's still on the same lower plane, it shouldn't break any Multiverse laws.

Existence in the territory of a specific deity is still not much of a paradise, but still much less horrid then "standard" lower plane. In some cases, even just after rebirth petitioner will be tormentor and not one tormented.

[Eldonauran]

But guys! It's not simply "taking a new form of existence", it's going through indescribable torture untill the mind is totally destroyed.
Well, mabye I overestimated the average fear of pain.Pain and suffering is one of the few guarantees in existence. Some flee from it, others avoid it, and others simply accept it as it comes. Only the very strange actively seek out pain and suffering. Madness is never a guarantee, only a possible outcome. For all we know, it is those with such tenacity as to survive against all odds that are actually the ones to crawl into the higher ranks.

Simply giving up only results in one outcome. Any other outcome, regardless of how improbable, is made impossible by choosing to give up.

[Mr Adventurer]

As far as I familiar with Planescape settings, in some cases souls can end up not in generic hell, but in a "private" territory of a deity.
We are talking about really evil people. Those who commit really evil things, will surely catch an interest from someone among deities. They can't get redemption, but maybe they can convince a cleric of same evil alignment, to pray and ask some evil deity to give shelter. As long as it's still on the same lower plane, it shouldn't break any Multiverse laws.

Existence in the territory of a specific deity is still not much of a paradise, but still much less horrid then "standard" lower plane. In some cases, even just after rebirth petitioner will be tormentor and not one tormented.

I don't think this is accurate: any worshipper of a deity typically goes to their god's afterlife, not just the "really evil" ones. And, there's absolutely no guarantee that the experience will be any better than the Hells.

[Meditation]

The fact that civilization in D&D-land isn't utterly obsessed with the afterlife and immortality is patently absurd, especially since even "good" souls suffer fates worse than death in many cases. The upside of this oversight is that addressing it can lead to some really interesting homebrew settings.


it literally is, though. the afterlife is an observable part of the natural world, and churches are the prevailing forces in most communities.

It literally isn’t, though. You may have confused some pronouns here — I’m not sure. “It” is civilization. Characters in-universe do not express significant concern about the afterlife in a reasonable or ational way. Pretty much everyone would conclude that becoming a blade of grass or a wild animal in Elysium is horrific, especially as a reward for being “good” (which is itself irrational because the alignments do not represent moral poles but eldritch forces of horror) and since people have a suite of reliable, mechanical means to engineer their long-term survival, they would just do that. Churches being important in communities in D&D-land is nearly irrelevant (I don’t know if the previous poster meant the church-reference to be a parallel to the real world). There is no real-world equivalent, even within religious institutions, to a person who can reliably move souls around, and that person, and his or her profession, would be the most important one around. And it wouldn’t necessarily be all or even majority clerics, either: as described in this very thread, there are lots of super-powers which impact this issue. These powers would be organized, syncratized, and employed in a manner that maximized the self-control and “lifespan” of at least the elites. I mean, we’re casually doing that right now. This says nothing about how the relationship between the gods and mortals would be in many cases out-and-out hostile, which, in turn, might well lead many gods to give mortals less of a raw deal, especially if mortals can trivially escape-hatch the process.

[NichG]

It literally isn’t, though. You may have confused some pronouns here — I’m not sure. “It” is civilization. Characters in-universe do not express significant concern about the afterlife in a reasonable or ational way. Pretty much everyone would conclude that becoming a blade of grass or a wild animal in Elysium is horrific, especially as a reward for being “good” (which is itself irrational because the alignments do not represent moral poles but eldritch forces of horror) and since people have a suite of reliable, mechanical means to engineer their long-term survival, they would just do that. Churches being important in communities in D&D-land is nearly irrelevant (I don’t know if the previous poster meant the church-reference to be a parallel to the real world). There is no real-world equivalent, even within religious institutions, to a person who can reliably move souls around, and that person, and his or her profession, would be the most important one around. And it wouldn’t necessarily be all or even majority clerics, either: as described in this very thread, there are lots of super-powers which impact this issue. These powers would be organized, syncratized, and employed in a manner that maximized the self-control and “lifespan” of at least the elites. I mean, we’re casually doing that right now. This says nothing about how the relationship between the gods and mortals would be in many cases out-and-out hostile, which, in turn, might well lead many gods to give mortals less of a raw deal, especially if mortals can trivially escape-hatch the process.

I mean, if we're going this route, it makes more sense for the gods to burn it all down before mortals manage to systematize things. The 0.05% of high-level mortals who are powerful enough to seize personal immortality are one thing, but if they figure out how to mass produce a convenient immortality trick that the average commoner could be given, and which would put said commoner beyond the long game of 'they'll die of violence or accident eventually', then the only guaranteed move left is to make sure as many souls as possible move on before some high level person decides not to pull up the ladder behind them. Or, I suppose, the gods could intentionally spread an easy but imperfect immortality method around to poison the well - if almost everyone has the chance to become a necropolitan, who would bother with the risks and delays of lichdom?

[Conradine]

Pain and suffering is one of the few guarantees in existence.

No, not at hellish levels.
People endure mundane sufference like squallor, poverty, even hunger and moderate levels of violence.
People flee en masse when things like gruesome public executions and genocide happens, and Hell is that multiplied for a thousand.

There's a reason if even the Fiendish Codex says "it's a mysterie of multiverse that any person in his right mind would choose a LE alignment".

[Bohandas]

The real solution is to speak the name of Pazuzu three times immediately upon arriving in Hell before you are processed, thus summoning him and forcibly changing your alignment from Lawful Evil to Neutral Evil and preventing Hell from claiming you

[Psyren]

The real solution is to speak the name of Pazuzu three times immediately upon arriving in Hell before you are processed, thus summoning him and forcibly changing your alignment from Lawful Evil to Neutral Evil and preventing Hell from claiming you

He chooses whether or not to answer the summons at all, and the alignment shift only happens if he agrees to aid you I believe.

Besides, I'm not sure if I'd consider Hades much of an "upgrade" :smalltongue:

[Bohandas]

No, not at hellish levels.
People endure mundane sufference like squallor, poverty, even hunger and moderate levels of violence.
People flee en masse when things like gruesome public executions and genocide happens, and Hell is that multiplied for a thousand.

Honestly D&D's hell, as described in the books, doesn't seem all that extreme. Their punishments fall short of the breaking wheel and crucifixion, the intrusiveness of their security falls short of the TSA, and most of the people in charge worked their way up from the bottom legitimately (with the notable exceptions of Asmodeus and the Lord of Malebolge), or at least what passes for legitimately in hell.

[Necroticplague]

I’d assume most would choose Hell. After all, while leaving any personality intact through lemurehood or skipping it is incredibly unlikely to make it through with ‘you’ remotely intact, it’s still a chance, which is much better than the 0% having your soul shredded does.

Don’t some souls get turned into larva (often used as currency), instead of a Lemure, as well? While not exactly aspirational, still seems a hair better than nothing.

And of course, there’s always a lifeline to hold out for possible resurrection/undeath giving you a second wind. Which ain’t gonna happen if you don’t have a soul to stubbornly stick around/cram back into your body.

Sure, the chances of any of these are pretty poor, damn near close to zero unless you’ve made plans for them ahead of time, but they’re at least worth a shot. After all, what you got to lose? The worst case scenario is the same for both options, one just contains the possibility of better ones.

[Dalmosh]

Assuming you cleave hard to pure LE through indirect diabolical corruption, and aren't the marked property of any specific devil, you could probably circumvent the process by taking up worship of a LE Deity, and getting a much cushier afterlife as a Petitioner in their divine realm where (depending on thw set-up) you potentially retain much more of own identity.

It'd be way better than getting dumped into the Shelves of Despond anyway.

[Meditation]

I mean, if we're going this route, it makes more sense for the gods to burn it all down before mortals manage to systematize things.

That's the point. No version of D&D-land with the standard cosmology makes even a lick of sense. It can't evolve from any starting point to the present and it isn't presently stable anyway. The gods are written as fantasy-standard super-parasites (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly)* that aggressively control and cultivate their food source. . . but then they don't for some reason.

Many major aspects of these settings are simply lazy. I mean, it should be perfectly obvious to anyone that the various authors didn't intend for the "good" afterlife to be a horrific hellworld: it just worked out that way because no editor put in the time to hammer this properly out. Understand that everyone on this thread, and the internet in general, has put more time and more serious thought into the metaphysics of D&D than anyone paid to do it ever could or ever would. As such, I heartily endorse a well-considered homebrew once your table can't get Teh Stupid that this cosmology presents out of their heads. One easy change: remove the "lose your personality and self" bits from most afterlives. Throw in or keep suffering, possibly, but take annihilation off the table. Doesn't fix close to everything, but it's a good start.

(The next steps involve strictly defining a) the metaphysical rules of mortality and b) the propagatibility of metahuman abilities, and those aren't trivial endeavors.)

*Warning: TV Tropes Link

[Bohandas]

Assuming you cleave hard to pure LE through indirect diabolical corruption, and aren't the marked property of any specific devil, you could probably circumvent the process by taking up worship of a LE Deity, and getting a much cushier afterlife as a Petitioner in their divine realm where (depending on thw set-up) you potentially retain much more of own identity.

It doesn't even strictly have to be a LE deity. It could be one of the less alignment focused deities of another alignment. Like Boccob, who literally does not give a damn as long as you're into magic.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's the point. No version of D&D-land with the standard cosmology makes even a lick of sense. It can't evolve from any starting point to the present and it isn't presently stable anyway. The gods are written as fantasy-standard super-parasites (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly)* that aggressively control and cultivate their food source. . . but then they don't for some reason.

Many major aspects of these settings are simply lazy. I mean, it should be perfectly obvious to anyone that the various authors didn't intend for the "good" afterlife to be a horrific hellworld: it just worked out that way because no editor put in the time to hammer this properly out. Understand that everyone on this thread, and the internet in general, has put more time and more serious thought into the metaphysics of D&D than anyone paid to do it ever could or ever would. As such, I heartily endorse a well-considered homebrew once your table can't get Teh Stupid that this cosmology presents out of their heads. One easy change: remove the "lose your personality and self" bits from most afterlives. Throw in or keep suffering, possibly, but take annihilation off the table. Doesn't fix close to everything, but it's a good start.

(The next steps involve strictly defining a) the metaphysical rules of mortality and b) the propagatibility of metahuman abilities, and those aren't trivial endeavors.)

*Warning: TV Tropes LinkAnd that's not even a patch on the damned Wall of the Faithless, from Faerun.

Dear Bahamut, it's awful.

[pabelfly]

It literally isn’t, though. You may have confused some pronouns here — I’m not sure. “It” is civilization. Characters in-universe do not express significant concern about the afterlife in a reasonable or ational way. Pretty much everyone would conclude that becoming a blade of grass or a wild animal in Elysium is horrific, especially as a reward for being “good” (which is itself irrational because the alignments do not represent moral poles but eldritch forces of horror) and since people have a suite of reliable, mechanical means to engineer their long-term survival, they would just do that. Churches being important in communities in D&D-land is nearly irrelevant (I don’t know if the previous poster meant the church-reference to be a parallel to the real world). There is no real-world equivalent, even within religious institutions, to a person who can reliably move souls around, and that person, and his or her profession, would be the most important one around. And it wouldn’t necessarily be all or even majority clerics, either: as described in this very thread, there are lots of super-powers which impact this issue. These powers would be organized, syncratized, and employed in a manner that maximized the self-control and “lifespan” of at least the elites. I mean, we’re casually doing that right now. This says nothing about how the relationship between the gods and mortals would be in many cases out-and-out hostile, which, in turn, might well lead many gods to give mortals less of a raw deal, especially if mortals can trivially escape-hatch the process.

I think there are two ways you view this without having to rewrite your whole DnD setting around it. First way is that any method of becoming immortal is something they know will is possible, but it's a pipe dream for most commoners - they're all going to require a high character level, vast sums of money, and/or a lot of physical risk. Any high-level NPC capable and willing to help others this way is probably more preoccupied with stopping whatever apocalyptic scenario the world is worried about, playing a vital role in running a kingdom, or being feted by kings and emperors and the richest of nobility. He's not going to have time to worry about some random commoner not wanting to die.

Or it could just be a a legendary tale commoners discuss among themselves with disbelief and incredulity. It's the same as people stopping time, raining a swarm of meteors down on enemies, summoning creature from entirely different planes to fight, a God appearing and causing a miracle, or even just a level twenty fighter managing to attack and parry over a dozen attacks in seconds. All of this is far outside the understanding of a commoner who's daily experiences are their family, friends and their job and whatever issue their community is suffering from.