The Shadow

[RNightstalker]

So I'm one of the few people that apparently enjoyed the 1994 Alec Baldwin movie of the same title, and I've always thought it would be cool to bring that character to life in D&D. Has anyone else thought about this or would know how to make it work? I currently have a minimal understanding of Psionics in 3.x, but I have found the power that would allow one to "cloud men's minds"...aptly named Cloud Mind. The only problem is with a Will save and power resistance, it's useless at higher levels. Anybody know a way around that problem?

[MisterKaws]

'Scuse me, but I'm gonna have to ask you for details on the character's powers. Only a small percentage of people who come here will get the reference on a movie from 25 years ago, so if you don't post exact details on the character's description, you'll be limiting yourself to only getting help from those few.

[RNightstalker]

'Scuse me, but I'm gonna have to ask you for details on the character's powers. Only a small percentage of people who come here will get the reference on a movie from 25 years ago, so if you don't post exact details on the character's description, you'll be limiting yourself to only getting help from those few.

Easy there tiger. He's a guy that's "psychically well-endowed" enough to turn nearly invisible, just can't seem to hide his "Shadow". He can use Telekinesis, control the minds of others that are weak to make them do what he wants. He can also read their minds like a book, use telepathy, hypnotics, stuff like that. I don't know if it's on Netflix or not but there are a few clips out there on the tube of You.

[Particle_Man]

Psion comes to mind. The telepath can probably do all that and then some.

[MisterKaws]

Easy there tiger. He's a guy that's "psychically well-endowed" enough to turn nearly invisible, just can't seem to hide his "Shadow". He can use Telekinesis, control the minds of others that are weak to make them do what he wants. He can also read their minds like a book, use telepathy, hypnotics, stuff like that. I don't know if it's on Netflix or not but there are a few clips out there on the tube of You.

:D

Care there, don't make innuendos near me. I'm the guy who sidetracked a monk optimization thread into turkey slap optimization.

So, I googled for 30 seconds. Tiring as hell.

As I understood, these are the powers you want for the character:


Mind-reading
Telepathy
Hypnosis
Invisibility


Do you also want the weird sentient telepathic knife-thing?



Now, here are the answers to what you'll need:


Mind-reading: Read Thoughts
Telepathy: Mindlink
Hypnosis: Charm, Suggestion, Dominate
Invisibility: Cloud Mind, False Sensory Output


Well, that's 7 powers you need, all level 4 and below. A Telepath gets 15 known powers, so you need to choose another 8.

The problem with this is that you have low BAB and HP. The BAB can be easily fixed by Skilled Weapons or whatever, but the HP is harder. No psionic class other than Telepath can get those powers properly, so you can't change either.

There's always the option of going Sorcerer instead, taking Stalwart Battle Sorcerer with just the few mind-affecting spells you want. You lose a bit of the psychic fluff for mechanical superiority.

There's also maybe Psibond Agent. You can enter it at minimum level with Psychic Rogue. It gets mind-reading, sense-changing and hypnosis. Taking Kalashtar as your race would give you Mindlink as a PLA and a lot of extra power points for your PP-starved Psychic Rogue class. I guess it's a good fit overall.

So I googled for 30 minutes. That was fun.

[The Viscount]

If you're going the psionic route, Lurk is definitely in the psionic sneak alley.
That being said, almost any time I think about using Lurk, I find that Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) makes me happier.

While clouding someone's mind to hide from them certainly is an option, given how the Shadow can hide from more than one person at once, it seems better to turn to other effects.

[MisterKaws]

If you're going the psionic route, Lurk is definitely in the psionic sneak alley.
That being said, almost any time I think about using Lurk, I find that Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) makes me happier.

While clouding someone's mind to hide from them certainly is an option, given how the Shadow can hide from more than one person at once, it seems better to turn to other effects.

Or do Mass Cloud Mind.

Of course, that spell is a sad excuse for Invisibility, but perhaps quite a bit more deadly than Invisibility once it acts. It's basically Glitterdust on steroids. except with a bunch of saves. Well, you just need a single turn to drop that Black Lotus Extract barrel you made with Expanded Knowledge(Minor Creation).

[Venger]

If you're going the psionic route, Lurk is definitely in the psionic sneak alley.
That being said, almost any time I think about using Lurk, I find that Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) makes me happier.

While clouding someone's mind to hide from them certainly is an option, given how the Shadow can hide from more than one person at once, it seems better to turn to other effects.

Listen to him. psychic rogue is great. do that and just use transparency and upd to cast invisibility from wands. don't take cloud mind, it's an unbelievably horrible power.

[RNightstalker]

Listen to him. psychic rogue is great. do that and just use transparency and upd to cast invisibility from wands. don't take cloud mind, it's an unbelievably horrible power.

Is there any way to save cloud mind as it is the core concept? I've noticed a few feats that can help raise DC's, but that won't help much in the long run. Are there any ways to lower an opponent's will save that I can't seem to remember?

[MisterKaws]

Is there any way to save cloud mind as it is the core concept? I've noticed a few feats that can help raise DC's, but that won't help much in the long run. Are there any ways to lower an opponent's will save that I can't seem to remember?

The main problem is it being just outright inferior to Invisibility and its various superior versions.

[Venger]

Is there any way to save cloud mind as it is the core concept? I've noticed a few feats that can help raise DC's, but that won't help much in the long run. Are there any ways to lower an opponent's will save that I can't seem to remember?

There are, but it doesn't fix the issue. Cloud mind has too many problems to make eliminating them all worth it:


mind-affecting, so constructs, undead, etc can still find you
short range, so you need to get really close to the enemy anyway without being detected before you can zap him
only affects 1 creature, so you can't go by groups
allows uncapped extra saves, so no one will be under this for long if there's more than one enemy around who passed save/is unaffected
short duration, if you need it for prolonged periods, enemy will need multiple saves
willneg
pr yes


solutions
[list]
it's a power, so song of the dead doesn't work
extend is a poor use of resources, and the range still sucks
no way to augment to affect more creatures, mass version is an increase of five levels
no raw way to obviate save
no raw way to obviate pr

you can certainly still do psionics, but cloud mind is not going to help you very much even if it's what the shadow says

[Lapak]

Honestly the fact that Cloud Mind has serious flaws fits the source material. When he finally faces a level-appropriate threat it becomes unreliable to the point of leaving him seriously on the back foot until he overcomes the enemy with a more brute-force attack. The (movie version of) The Shadow uses Cloud Mind as a way to deal with minion-level mooks and build a reputation, not to confront his archenemy. The Shadow is a street-level hero as shown, not a 20th-level D&D character.

If you're building off of this keep in mind that he also seemed to be running a disguise power alongside Cloud Minds - not only was he hard to spot but those who DID see him saw a different face, further cementing his secret identity protection.

[RNightstalker]

Honestly the fact that Cloud Mind has serious flaws fits the source material. When he finally faces a level-appropriate threat it becomes unreliable to the point of leaving him seriously on the back foot until he overcomes the enemy with a more brute-force attack. The (movie version of) The Shadow uses Cloud Mind as a way to deal with minion-level mooks and build a reputation, not to confront his archenemy. The Shadow is a street-level hero as shown, not a 20th-level D&D character.

If you're building off of this keep in mind that he also seemed to be running a disguise power alongside Cloud Minds - not only was he hard to spot but those who DID see him saw a different face, further cementing his secret identity protection.

Good insight. Though what power did Shiwan use to cover-up the Hotel Monolith from the entire city?!

[Cygnia]

Maybe boost the power of the knife to artifact levels (it does display some sentience/ego/intelligence)? Couple that with something mundane like drugging the air or water supply to lower Will saves...