What Classes to take to the MCU

[White Blade]

So, an extremely powerful being plans to kidnap you and put you in the Marvel Cinematic Universe at an undefined point - It will give you the elite ability array, the ability to determine feat and skills, and 20 gestalt levels of two (and only those two) tier 4 or 5 classes. You will get the equivalent of WBL but it will be doled out as opposed to chosen. Guns are exotic weapons. What two classes do you choose to take?

[Vizzerdrix]

Got a list of the tiers?

[White Blade]

Got a list of the tiers?

Yeah, here: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tier_System

[heavyfuel]

Yeah, here: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tier_System

May I suggest using the re-tiered classes found in my signature?

It was a forum wide effort to better place each class in each tier

[Thurbane]

In the real world, or MCU for that matter, my theory is any magic is better than no magic. My two classes would be Adept (for spells) and Barbarian (for non-squishiness).

I'd consider swapping out Adept for Spellthief or Hexbalde...

[White Blade]

May I suggest using the re-tiered classes found in my signature?

It was a forum wide effort to better place each class in each tier

Sure if people would prefer to use that set they’re welcome to

[Elkad]

I don't have a build, but just offhand I'd think something like Incarnate/Ranger.

Full BAB, all good saves, d10 hp, 6 skillpoints, favored enemy (humans, mutants?), some casting, and all the incarnum goodies (which even feel kinda like superhero powers).

And there are a bunch of ACFs for ranger you could pick from, though Wildshape Ranger is T3, so out.

[Particle_Man]

Warlock and spellthief. I would have some magic of my own but I would be able to steal and use the magic (including magic items) of other heroes and villains in the MCU. Like the infinity guantlet, for example.

[Vizzerdrix]

Warlock/Ranger.
STR-10+1 DEX-8+2 CON-13+1 WIS-14 INT-12 CHA-15+1

Not sure on feats. Most likely troll blooded and mark of xoriat will be worked in (that will take 5) and cwi. Maybe the feat that makes one immune to fatigue. I'm sure I could craft an item to do this though. Maybe get into aberrant dragonmarks for curse.

Primary skills would be craft alchemy, umd, and lucid dreaming. A decent profession, a bit in crafts and knowledges as well as spot spellcraft, and listen. Max the first 3. Fill in the rest as able. Give a bit of extra attention to knowledge engineering and combo it with some shapesand.

Mainly use baleful polymorph warlock ability to deal with problems. If that fails, shapesand mecha.

[GrayDeath]

Hmmmm, interesting.

Dragonfire Adept or Warlock/Barbarian if I feel particularly destructive at the time, otherwise probably Spellthief/whatever given the amount of great Magic in the MCU.

Or, if I feel particularly good, Paladin or DFA/truenamer (and going to bring Bahamut into the World ^^).

Sadly most CLasses I would prefer are Tier 3....^^

Edited: Forgot this was starting at 20 ^^

[Troacctid]

So what you're saying is I get to star in a Gwenpool movie? Do we know who they're casting as Cecil? No, never mind, that's not important.

I want magic, but I don't want to rely solely on magic, because this is the MCU, and even magic-users have to do frenetic choreographed action scenes. So for my first class, I think I'll actually go with monk. It makes me absurdly hard to kill, improves my speed and reflexes, and makes my punches more powerful than shotgun blasts. For my second class, the most powerful classes in T4/5 at level 20 are probably incarnate, shadowcaster, lurk, and truenamer. Coincidentally, all of them also have the ability to travel between planes, which is important because I'm pretty sure I'm going to want to go home again. Incarnate is tempting, but I'm going to actually go with lurk. I think the powers it offers are a bit more impactful, and it doesn't come with an alignment restriction.

ACFs: Hunter Monk, Holy Strike, Invisible Fist, Illuminated Monk (6th), Tracker
Feats: Psicrystal Affinity, Kung Fu Genius, Linked Power, something, something, Expanded Knowledge (Call Item), Expanded Knowledge (Psychic Reformation), Expanded Knowledge (Psionic Plane Shift), Improved Unarmed Strike (B), Deflect Arrows (B)

Powers:
1st: Dimensional Pocket, Far Hand, Know Direction and Location
2nd: Animal Affinity, Detect Hostile Intent, Elfsight, Specified Energy Adaptation
3rd: Mental Barrier, something
4th: Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Steadfast Perception
5th: Adapt Body, something, something
6th: Mass Cloud Mind, Temporal Acceleration, something

Alternative shadowcaster build:
Fundamentals: All except Shadow Hood
Apprentice: Ebon Whispers, Eyes of Darkness
Initiate: Dark Reflections, Ebon Roads
Master: Dark Metamorphosis, Eyes of the Night Sky

[White Blade]

I’m kind of becoming attached to a Vow of Poverty/Peace Monk/Paladin (with the Serenity feat because you’re not a moron). You’re immune to bullets (manufactured non magical weapons unattended instantly break), you’re resistant to most energy and you have damage reduction, freedom of movement/true seeing, speed (Really dang fast), AC of 44, Improved Evasion, saves of +24 minimum, DMM: Persist (Favor of the Martyr), speak every language, don’t age or get sick, GTFO abilities from Monk. It’s a very on-level build I think.

[Celestia]

I'd go warlock/rogue. Warlock gives me blasting that is standard enough to favor uninspired action scenes but quirky enough to allow different flavors of blasting. Thus, I will fit perfectly into the MCU choreography. Rogue will give me all of the speech skills as well as skill mastery so that I can take ten and always have the ability to blurt out a snarky comment in the middle of battle. This will make me charming enough that I'm not likely going to get killed off, at least not until my contract is up. Thus, I'll be able to survive quite well in that universe for around six to ten films.

[Psyren]

I'd be a Psion:

1) I can use any number of recharge tricks to keep up with any of the heroes or villains.
2) By suppressing my displays, they'd have no idea various effects are originating from me until I'm high enough level to defend myself properly.
3) Three words: Detect Hostile Intent. (Three more words: Vigor Share Pain)
4) Once I get high enough, I can true mind switch with somebody who is really difficult to kill (preferably a C-lister like Ghost who nobody will miss) or just dominate one of the eggheads like Shuri / Pym to make me a supersuit of my own.

[Troacctid]

I'd be a Psion:

1) I can use any number of recharge tricks to keep up with any of the heroes or villains.
2) By suppressing my displays, they'd have no idea various effects are originating from me until I'm high enough level to defend myself properly.
3) Three words: Detect Hostile Intent. (Three more words: Vigor Share Pain)
4) Once I get high enough, I can true mind switch with somebody who is really difficult to kill (preferably a C-lister like Ghost who nobody will miss) or just dominate one of the eggheads like Shuri / Pym to make me a supersuit of my own.
Do you mean lurk? Lurk is the highest-tier psionic class available.

[Psyren]

Do you mean lurk? Lurk is the highest-tier psionic class available.

Whoops, missed that restriction :smallredface:

There aren't really any T4/T5 classes I'd want to be in that world honestly.

[Celestia]

4) Once I get high enough, I can true mind switch with somebody who is really difficult to kill (preferably a C-lister like Ghost who nobody will miss) or just dominate one of the eggheads like Shuri / Pym to make me a supersuit of my own.
You know, the entire plot of the movie was that her powers were killing her (not to mention the literally neverending suffering) and she had maybe a few months to live, tops, and now she is wholly dependent on quantum energy for survival, like extreme insulin, except only three people on Earth know how to collect it, and they're all wanted criminals, making your only source of life-saving sci-fi a risky situation that could collapse at any moment. Maybe not the best choice there.

[Kalkra]

Adept with Craft Wondrous Item could make a Cure Light Wounds item, and Commune is also nice for finding out about all the Thanos wannabes before they acquire phenomenal cosmic power. Shadowcasters aren't very good compared to other casters, but there are some pretty nice 9th-level mysteries.


Or, if Dragon Mag material is legal, you could take Sculpt Self, buy a thought bottle, and be a Commoner//Aristocrat.

[Thurbane]

... to make me a supersuit of my own.

Actually, that's a point. Savant might be an option, and allow you to get skills you need to build Stark/Pym level tech.

[AnonymousPepper]

Shadowcaster // Marshal or Paladin, I think.

Shadowcaster is the best caster available at tier 4, and it's honestly pretty solid with some investment. Marshal and Paladin are the two best Cha-based options also in that tier; Paladin has the better active abilities, but Marshal is one of the best gestalt classes in the game since its entire schtick is passive buffs that don't require actions - or really any item investment either, other than just charisma boosting. It doesn't get the full BAB of the Pally or the smite and the like, but what it can do with Charisma with little action investment is really, really good all things considered. It's not a good primary class, but as the second half of a gestalt I'm very fond of it. As is, many of the charisma primary casters can still fit it in as a dip for the +SR pen aura.

Another secondary option might be the Spellthief, but you lose the advantage of being SAD like a Shadowcaster//Marshal or to a lesser extent Shadowcaster//Paladin and it competes for your action economy. The biggest advantage to Spellthief is the high power level of existing casters, which is good for your thievery and puts a high value on the +3 competence bonus to saves from Spellgrace.

[Psyren]

You know, the entire plot of the movie was that her powers were killing her (not to mention the literally neverending suffering) and she had maybe a few months to live, tops, and now she is wholly dependent on quantum energy for survival, like extreme insulin, except only three people on Earth know how to collect it, and they're all wanted criminals, making your only source of life-saving sci-fi a risky situation that could collapse at any moment. Maybe not the best choice there.

Eh, I'd have time to figure that out pre-switch. Autohypnosis on the entire body of Pym's research would be a good start.

[Maat Mons]

1d4chan Version: Healer // Warlock

Healer's spell list may suck, but there are ways around that. If I put in enough effort, I'm sure I can snag access to some good spells.



Retierded Version: Adept // Lurk

Even the paltry healing abilities of an adept should be enough to make me obscenely wealthy and/or garner the protection of a powerful organization. Naturally, I'd use the Eberron adept to get a cleric domain. Not sure which domain I'd go for though.

Lurks get mind blank, true seeing, and freedom of movement. And they can use expanded knowledge to get teleport or plane shift. So that seems decent, given our restrictions. Heck, if I can pay NPCs for castings of psychic chiurgery and do power point regeneration, I'd even call it good.

[Gnaeus]

True namer//spellthief

Truenamer 20 is the power hitter of the low tiers. It’s pretty unlikely that you are going to be fighting 4 20 CR threats a day even in the MCU, so what you can do is more important than how often you do it. Let’s see. Gate. Flight. Heals. Dominate. Etherealness. Truenamer also gestalts very well with skill classes, since it can give itself big boosts to skills. Transmute weapon alone beats avengers. With a static unfailable DC 25 check you can turn iron man’s armor into padded armor. Or upgrade it to adamantine. Or make knowledge engineering checks at superhuman DCs to build stuff.

Spellthief 20 gives you all the skill points you need. Your 15 BAB and sneak attack still makes you an elite combatant. Sorcerer type casting of up to 4th level wizard spells. That means Polymorph is at your disposal. Now you factor in that you are a 10th level arcane caster. So that’s our improved (draconic? Exalted?) familiar (who’s HP and BAB 15 also make him an impressive threat, who is also a full skillmonkey, who is also a target for utterances and steal spell like ability) and craft wondrous items, which makes you one of the best artificers in the world. Also, you can gate things in just to borrow their spells then send them home.

The list of things that can pose a credible combat threat should be small. The list of things that can be a credible threat and chase down your flying, DDooring, invisible, ethereal self is smaller. Your healing and crafting alone would make you an asset to any team in the universe.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah, with this kind of tier restriction, I'm less interested in joining the MCU cast. I want to thrive and benefit from my gestalt build, yeah, but putting my life on the line when what I can do just isn't that impressive doesn't appeal to me. I could maybe go Ranger//Scout, try and convince the universe that Swift Hunter is a reasonable feat on that build in this universe, and be Hawkeye-But-Worse, but I'm just not that kinda person. No, if I'm not able to bring the big combat guns over from D&D, then the benefits I'm wanting to bring over are survivability (20 HD for HP/saves helps there), a wide variety of fantastical skills (not needing full ranks means I can more than double the number of skills I'm invested in, effectively). Someone with magic and support, but who can be subtle about it. Someone who can be dangerous if they need to be, but most of the time plays like just another sheep so they can surprise people when they need to. I want to play the kind of person who makes it to the end of a Marvel movie, somebody who's escorted away from danger.

I go into politics as a Marshal//Ranger (Urban Ranger/Shooting Star), probably middle-aged for a good boost to Int/Cha. d10 HD, full BAB, 6+Int skills/level, all good saves, decent skill list, a good bit of magic, marshal auras, grant move action, and favored enemy (Humanoid: Human) for the social bonuses. Middle-Aged Human focusing Int will end up with 218 skill points; invest them all in an item familiar that's something I basically can't lose (like a Stark-style pacemaker), and I've effectively got 290 points of bonus I can spread around my skills. If I'm limiting myself to 10 "ranks" (well, ranks/bonuses) per skill, that's 29 skills I can have half-maxed out, which can be Appraise, Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, all ten main knowledges, Listen, Move Silently, Perform (Pratory), Profession (Politician), Search, Sense motive, Speak Language, Spot, Survival, and Use Magic Device. Skill Focus (Diplomacy), marshal auras, and a decent Cha to back up my high Int will see me thrive in government.

By the conventions of the genre and the setting, politicians get targeted but not in a way that will be a problem for my personally all that frequently. Individual politicians aren't outright killed, they're kidnapped for some other purpose, and they usually make it out the other side even though 99% of them are bog-standard human. A group of politicians gathered together might get targeted for death, but it's rarely with the kind of firepower that would be necessary to bring down somebody 10 times tougher than the average person, because for whatever reason supervillains never use the good **** when bombing Congress. Presumably because they assume that if somebody had real power, they wouldn't become a politician, they would've donned a cape and mask and left boring meetings behind to go punch muggers into walls.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Changed my mind. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?592376-What-Classes-to-take-to-the-MCU&p=24029796&viewfull=1#post24029796)


I changed my mind. How about dragonborn warforged psionic spellthief (with Master Psithief) // psychic rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)? Take Supernatural Transformation (Psionics), Tashalatora, and Carmendine Monk, and make sure I have plenty of ways to access out-of-list powers (especially metamorphosis), and lots and lots of pp regeneration. That way I get lots of manifesting, psithievery (and I can steal my own powers, if I want), and get the monky parts of monk without a single level in the class. It's not terribly difficult to get fluck (http://definition.org/define/fluck/)tons of feats, and I'd be manifesting at double-strength, easily.

[edit] I'd need to find a way to be considered on another plane when need be. After all, Thanos can't do squat to me with his Nintendo Powerglove Infinity Gauntlet if I'm not considered on its home plane, after all.

[edit 2] I'd totally abuse item creation, Ancestral Relic, and Landlord for a built-in psychoactive skin of proteus with an extradimensional inventory pouch. It'd be amazing.

[Mehangel]

If D&D 3.5: Warlock//Ranger.
If Pathfinder: Soulknife//Vigilante.

[Vizzerdrix]

Actually, that's a point. Savant might be an option, and allow you to get skills you need to build Stark/Pym level tech.

Shapesand would save lots of time developing said tech.

[CharonsHelper]

Spellthief combined with either Paladin or Ranger.

Paladin/Ranger for the durability, saves, and accuracy, and Spellthief is an awesome GISH class and is amazing in team-ups where I could borrow their powers. There are a LOT of foes & allies in MCU whose schtick (in D&D terms) would likely be considered 1-2 spell-like abilities - which I could steal to shut them down.

Though - if they would be considered supernatural abilities - Spellthief might not be the best choice - though still not terrible.

[Troacctid]

Actually, that's a point. Savant might be an option, and allow you to get skills you need to build Stark/Pym level tech.
I am on board for the Gwenpool/Ironheart crossover.


Eh, I'd have time to figure that out pre-switch. Autohypnosis on the entire body of Pym's research would be a good start.
You don't want to be a villain though. Villains have terrible track records in this universe.

[Psyren]

You don't want to be a villain though. Villains have terrible track records in this universe.

I was thinking of it more as a willing trade, or euthanasia. Kinda like how Ultimate Psylocke (Betsy Braddock) made a deal with a woman in a coma (Kwannon) to get her body in exchange for Kwannon moving on. If she didn't agree I'd find some other durable arrangement.

[weckar]

For a villain Warlock//Scout seems the obvious choice to do plenty of damage without ever coming near the action.

Warlock//Paladin of Freedom has the obvious charisma synergy, but it requires some investment to get an AC worth a dakum.

Otherwise, there's the good old Monk//Spellthief and the Monk//Totemist (although totemist in T4 is apparently disputed).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I changed my mind. How about dragonborn warforged psionic spellthief (with Master Psithief) // psychic rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)? Take Supernatural Transformation (Psionics), Tashalatora, and Carmendine Monk, and make sure I have plenty of ways to access out-of-list powers (especially metamorphosis), and lots and lots of pp regeneration. That way I get lots of manifesting, psithievery (and I can steal my own powers, if I want), and get the monky parts of monk without a single level in the class. It's not terribly difficult to get fluck (http://definition.org/define/fluck/)tons of feats, and I'd be manifesting at double-strength, easily.

[edit] I'd need to find a way to be considered on another plane when need be. After all, Thanos can't do squat to me with his Nintendo Powerglove Infinity Gauntlet if I'm not considered on its home plane, after all.

[edit 2] I'd totally abuse item creation, Ancestral Relic, and Landlord for a built-in psychoactive skin of proteus with an extradimensional inventory pouch. It'd be amazing.

[johnbragg]

This may be going against the spirit of the Tier 4-5 restriction, but I'd have to start with Healer 20. In D&Dverses, healing magic is easy to come by--clerics, druids, bards, rangers, paladins, adepts. In the MCU, healing is at a premium. The healer list has raise dead, heal, and regenerate. Rhodey can get his legs back. And, let me repeat, raise dead resurrection true resurrection.

I'm not sure it's in the spirit of the question, because the Healer is rated Tier 4 because it's compared to other classes who can ALSO raise the dead, and do a ton of other amazing things. And/or the fact that, even if your party doesn't have the native ability to raise the dead, you can hire someone to do it. In the MCU, that's not a Tier 4/5 ability.

For the other side, maybe get greedy and add Paladin or Fighter for the d10 hit die and full BAB. Fighter if I want to get creative with feats, Paladin if I want to double down on the shiny happy goodness and cast holy sword. ACtually I have the feats to craft a holy sword at that point, don't I?

But why be a schmuck who has to run to the battle, or ride a horse (combining the paladin's mount and the healer's mount features would get you an impressive visual, anyway). When you could be a Healer 20//Warlock 20.

Warlock gives you damage reduction, at-will detect magic, Use Magic Device to handle any MCU magic you run across, damage resistance, energy resistance, ability to create magic items. THEN you start picking Invocations.

Least: Eldritch Spear, Darkness, Devils' Sight, See the Unseen
Lesser: Charm, Fell Flight, Walk Unseen, Flee the Scene
Greater: Pass, use the slots for Least and Lesser Invocations
Dark: Baleful Polymorph, Utterdark Blast.

And you still have 2 invocations to pick. :smallsmile:

[Vizzerdrix]

raise dead resurrection true resurrection.

Yeah, but when was the last time anyone remained dead?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeah, but when was the last time anyone remained dead?Any- and everyone Peter Parker even kinda likes a little bit?

[Vizzerdrix]

Any- and everyone Peter Parker even kinda likes a little bit?

Hmm... ya got a point. But I have another point! What ya gonna do with yer unicorn? Ain't NO landlord gonna let you habe one in an appartment!


On a side note, I'd have to swap either ranger or warlock for shadowcaster. I'd be upset if I passed up the chance to get a skiurid as a familiar.

[AnonymousPepper]

Honestly, that's a really good point about Healer. The sort of things you can do with a Healer are nothing short of exceptional in MCU-verse.

That said, the biggest issue Healer has is the lack of good WIS-based classes to gestalt with. What do you have at T4/5? Monk? Ranger? Sohei if you wanna do that to yourself? Spellthief but only against other WIS classes? Paladin partially, since this is 3 and not Pathfinder? It's not a very good list.

Healer//Ranger is probably the best of a bad selection, with the caveat that there's a lot of overlap in the spell list. Either that or Spellthief.

[Thurbane]

Paladin partially, since this is 3 and not Pathfinder? It's not a very good list.

There's always the Serenity feat (Dragon Compendium) which sets divine grace, lay on hands, smite evil, and turn undead to run off your Wis modifier instead of Cha.

Having said that, Healer gets some benefits from a decent Cha score as well (Healing Hands), and the DC of their spells is set by Cha.

[AnonymousPepper]

There's always the Serenity feat (Dragon Compendium) which sets divine grace, lay on hands, smite evil, and turn undead to run off your Wis modifier instead of Cha.

Having said that, Healer gets some benefits from a decent Cha score as well (Healing Hands), and the DC of their spells is set by Cha.

Yeah, but Healers basically don't care about spell DCs and Cha is just an additive bonus on their healing spells, so eh.

Serenity is a good fix, though. Forgot about that. Healer // Paladin with Serenity is the answer. (Along with the aforementioned shadowcaster stuff I suggested earlier)

[Maat Mons]

On the subject of Wis-based classes to gestalt with Healer, Warlock might not be Wis-based, but it's arguable stat-independent. Just pick all utility invocations so you don't care about save DCs on that side either.

One cool thing about Warlock is that you can craft magic items without being able to cast the spells that are normally prerequisites. Considering that none of the classes actually available for this exercise get spell lists that facilitate building crafters, that basically makes Warlock a "poor man's Artificer" for our purposes.

For Healer specifically, you can broaden your versatility substantially by using Imbue Item to craft domain staffs, and then using Deceive Item to ignore the fact that the spells aren't on your class list. Sure, you can only attune to one staff per day, and you can only use a given spell from the staff once per day, but even one Miracle per day can really add up over time.

[Telonius]

I'm thinking I'd go with, "Have powerful friends." Healer // Ranger; my Animal Companion is a squirrel.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The Infinity Stones and Gauntlet are all artifacts, right? I'm spending 5 gp on a spell component pouch so I can pull those suckers out ASAP.

[Vizzerdrix]

The Infinity Stones and Gauntlet are all artifacts, right? I'm spending 5 gp on a spell component pouch so I can pull those suckers out ASAP.

Wouldn't it contain Thors hammer as well? How would you mobe it?! :smalleek:

[TalonOfAnathrax]

People, it seems possible to get access to level 9 wizard spells by taking Magewright and using Earth Spell + Residual Magic to heighten spells to 10th level, thus allowing for Extra Slot to grant 9th-level spell slots. Magewrights have access to the wizard spell list, right? Just have level 9 spell slots at a level where you gain Spell Mastery, and you're fine!
EDIT : And if you interpret the class description as meaning that you need to spend a feat to learn that level 9 spell, it's still worth it. Grab Arcane Disciple or something, or Mother Cyst. Or Extra Spell, arguably. Still, AFAIK the MAgewright's spell list is simply the wizard's spell list.

Therefore, I'm thinking of being a Magewright/Incarnate.

Incarnate is versatile, lasts all day, and is useful for skills, defenses and even combat.
Magewright makes me a mini-wizard capable of travelling the planes to get home, and throwing out a few level 9 spells as nukes as needed.


EDIT : Magewright doesn't actually have the wizard list. However, see my later post on using Adept to get Miracle several times per day.

I have no intention of getting into fights or anything. I'd be using my WBL to grab stealth and convenience magic (Ring of Sustenance, Mind Blank, Foresight, Vestment of Many Styles, Ring of Prestigiditation if possible, an item with access to Miracle a few times a day would be nice... Although I could use a feat for that), and just try to avoid the plot. The heroes win, anyway.
If my divinations hinted at me being caught in the Snap, then I'd panic. Until then? None of my problem.

OBLIGATORY FEAT : Wedded to History.


If we used the Tier list here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?266559-Tier-System-for-Classes-(Rescued-from-MinMax)) and not the vastly superior retiering (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568771-Retiering-the-Classes-A-new-home), then I'd be a Healer/Warlock, obviously.

[Thurbane]

If we used the Tier list here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?266559-Tier-System-for-Classes-(Rescued-from-MinMax)) and not the vastly superior retiering (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568771-Retiering-the-Classes-A-new-home), then I'd be a Healer/Warlock, obviously.

Hmm, from the first list, maybe Healer//Warmage? Dual 9ths...I mean, not amazing 9ths, but still. Gate, Meteor Swarm, Prismatic Sphere, True Resurrection...

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Hmm, from the first list, maybe Healer//Warmage? Dual 9ths...I mean, not amazing 9ths, but still. Gate, Meteor Swarm, Prismatic Sphere, True Resurrection...
Warlock has skill boosts, mobility, and Foresight. Foresight is amazing, and is IMO worth it all on its own. Especially in this setting, where there are things that will hunt you down even if you do nothing but try to live quietly and comfortably.

Oh, and Warlocks are also great item crafters, which is nice. Set up a Distilled Joy factory and break the setting over your knee!

[TotallyNotEvil]

Of the original tiers, Jealer and Warmage are real caster powerhouses. Implosion, Weird, Wail of the Banshee, Prismatic Sphere, Gate, Foresight? That's :smallwink:a baller 9th level spell list.

Crafting opens incredible horizons, so it's still a toss up due the Warlock's neat ability.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Of the original tiers, Jealer and Warmage are real caster powerhouses. Implosion, Weird, Wail of the Banshee, Prismatic Sphere, Gate, Foresight? That's :smallwink:a baller 9th level spell list.

Crafting opens incredible horizons, so it's still a toss up due the Warlock's neat ability.What ways are there for a healer to approximate casting spontaneously like the warmage does?

How about using one class's slots to cast spells from the other class? Versatile Spellcaster, maybe?

How much would spell points help or hinder that particular gestalt?

[Quertus]

So, an extremely powerful being plans to kidnap you and put you in the Marvel Cinematic Universe at an undefined point - It will give you the elite ability array, the ability to determine feat and skills, and 20 gestalt levels of two (and only those two) tier 4 or 5 classes. You will get the equivalent of WBL but it will be doled out as opposed to chosen. Guns are exotic weapons. What two classes do you choose to take?

So many problems. I suppose that the biggest is, the GM of the MCU is a railroading ****, who will make sure certain characters die in order to hit the story beats. May make for good movies, but not so good of an RPG, and it's a horror story if you're living it. The most important thing is that you've got to figure out how to survive the GM's crazy design for the world, how to make sure your death doesn't make the "best" story.

Now, ideally, you'll become not interesting, be off camera, and be able to Plane Shift to a D&D world, where you can retrain or rebuild those tier 4 levels for some good classes. And, hopefully, become unbound from MCU fate.

But, unfortunately, you're starting off with random gear, and the elite array, so it's really hard to make definitive plans.

Oh, and it's undefined starting point, too. Personally, I'm hoping for the Jurassic period or something, so I have plenty of time to get ready.

Best I can plan is with feats, like Leadership, for a useful Cohort who can resurrect me. Maybe some Lucid Dreaming, to kill baby Thanos in his sleep. Sculpt Self, or Warlock, for all my crafting needs. And Healer, to resurrect the cohort right back.

But, then, a Warlock pact in MCU? Does that sound like a character who can fade into obscurity? Tough, trying to hit this from so many angles at once.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I'm not sure how you'd mix and match spell slots like that. Is there a Spontaneous Healer? Because, given its spell list, there absolutely should be.

The big downside of the double caster build is the relatively weak chassis for a gestalt, with only d8 HD, 4+INT skills, good Fort and Will and 1/2 BAB. Which, on its own, is pretty solid, but that's all Healer. I'd be tempted to at least shoot for good BAB, if not more skill points, given that getting some means of mixing it up as a muggle is as easy as trading with or befriending Tony. As a fellow with True Ressurection, there are a very scant few people you can't get into the good graces of.

At the same time, there flat out isn't the kind of stand alone power the Warmage delivers with its fantastic high level spells, and the sheer amount of blasting options, available to other classes at T4 or lower.

Warmage for Imploding Thanos, Healer for the absurd, essentially OCP level healing and support spells, which brings with it potentially enormous political benefits (and headaches). This, at the cost of a weak-ish chassis and having to put a good score on Wisdom too.

In the end, even if it means being relatively fragile (as a d8 and medium armor ain't bad) and with relatively few skills, you just can't beat two 9th level progressions. Hey, at least you are mainly worried about CHA and you have Diplo and Sense Motive as class skills. Intimidate, too, which opens up a little Imperious Command/Never Outnumbered side-gig, which is far from shabby.

And damn, Healer even provides you with a loyal Lammasu mount. That's a flying, pouncing, greater invisible Dimension Dooring mount with Cleric 7 casting. It's just a no-brainer, the more I look at it. Decent HD, Diplo and Sense Motive in-class, great mount, enormous political clout due phenomenal healing powers, and Discern Location, Holy Aura, Gate and Foresight to top it all off.

If we are using the re-tiered classes, then it becomes quite a bit harder to go for a definite pick. I'm not familiar with True Namer, Lurk looked very appealing but has a chassis far poorer than I expected (full BAB and/or 6 skill points would go a long way for it), casting like some sort of Psionic Bard, with a small amount of pseudo-SA sprinkled about.

Still, that's got to be some of the best casting on the T4 and under re-tiered list, and has plenty of powerful staples on it, including Mindblank and its own Time Stop, and I heard you can have fun with expanding the list with some Psion stuff?

Shadow Caster seems promising, but very, very weak in stamina, and sounds very limited too, tho the unofficial fix helps quite a bit.

Lurk/Shadow Caster, while incredibly thematic, seems like a poor man's version of Warmage/Healer, with all the disadvantages and not remotely the same advantages. Far less stamina, still weak chassis, not as potent or versatile.

Warlock becomes very strong in the retiered list, as no one really seems to have the oomph to be a clear cut winner in terms of power like the Warmage and Healer, so its slew of decent perks really makes it shine: Clawlock and Beast Strike makes for fantastic and reliable melee damage with very little investment, can go at it all day, sundry invocations make you less reliant on tech to supply things like mobility and enhanced senses, little bit o' durability helps with not dying. And the crafting, of course, opens a great many doors. It costing XP does put a bit of a dampener on it, tho.

Clawlock/Monk makes for a tough, reliable face-punching machine. Kind of too niche for me, tho. I'd like better skills if I'm going to be a face-puncher. Kung Fu Genius and Carmendine Monk?

The only healing that readily comes to mind on a Monk/Clawlock build is by crafting wands, tho.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Note that the Nintendo Powerglove Infinity Gauntlet itself is a non-issue if you're ethereal, using either version of planar bubble, or can cheese the heck out of the acorn of far travel spell (via an oak tree on another plane), since the Nintendo Powerglove Infinity Gauntlet only works against things on its plane of origin. If you're using one of the above and are effectively not on its plane of origin, it is powerless against you.

Thanos is still essentially a demigod (at least), and is still ridunkulously powerful, but he's not omnipotent. My psithief/psyrogue could hit well out of its nominal T4 bracket and could likely match, if not exceed, his innate capabilities. Note that I wouldn't be limited to only the two classes' power lists, since it's not hard to pull from other lists -- including the T2s and T1s (since StP erudite is a thing, and it can grant spells as powers via psychic chirurgery).

[Jack_Simth]

So, an extremely powerful being plans to kidnap you and put you in the Marvel Cinematic Universe at an undefined point - It will give you the elite ability array, the ability to determine feat and skills, and 20 gestalt levels of two (and only those two) tier 4 or 5 classes. You will get the equivalent of WBL but it will be doled out as opposed to chosen. Guns are exotic weapons. What two classes do you choose to take?

I'm leaning towards Healer//Warlock.

Warlock has some at-wills, and is an artificer-lite. Healer gets divine 9ths. It's a very lackluster list, but does have a gem or two - the biggies being Foresight and Gate. However: As it grants Divine Casting, UMD means it can use domain staves. Yes, I don't start with them, but a Warlock is an Artificer-lite....

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I just checked the Eberron Campaign Setting, and of course Magewrights don't have access to the wizard spell list. Ugh.

There is an Adept Variant on page 256 of the Eberron Campaign Setting book that gets a single Cleric domain's spells added to its class list, even if it doesn't worship a specific God. Therefore I can take Luck Domain and get access to Miracle using the Earth Spell + Residual Spell + Extra Slot trick I was talking about earlier. Note that Miracle also opens up the creation of a Distilled Joy craft-factory (I can use Polymorph abuse to get all crafting feats as needed, and Adepts get Polymorph). Miracle also opens up access to Substitute Domain, which means I can get access to spells like Mind Blank as needed to craft them into items.
Similarly, Miracle allows Plane Shift to try to get home or to escape the Infinity Gauntlet.

The Adept Spell list is pretty good on its own, by the way : lightning bolt, remove curse, remove disease, tongues, minor creation, polymorph, restoration, baleful polymorph, break enchantment, commune, heal, major creation, raise dead, true seeing, wall of stone.

Note that Miracle access allows use of Pact spells, Contingency, and even stockpiling massive amounts of magic as Shalantha's Delicate Discs in bags of holding. Not bad!

Substitute Domain can allow access to amazing spells like Shapechange, Mind Blank, Time Stop, Dominate Monster, Monstrous Thrall, Gate, Foresight, Disjunction, Astral Projection, Shambler, Freedom, Imprisonmen, Teleportation Circle, Discern Location... All good spells for crafting, or that you could want in downtime.

As for my second class, well...
If my main focus is the defensive chassis and daylong utility, Incarnate is clearly the best choice. It's tough, it has immunities, it has mobility, and it can adapt of you ever need to go on the attack one morning. Although in the MCU you can just use a gun (or super-gun of some sort), so attack spells aren't always necessary. Incarnate can also make you a far better healer is you're going to be doing the rounds in hospitals. It can also let you deflect bullets, which is nice.
EDIT : I only just realised that many Incarnate soulmelds are stupidly obvious. They're big glowy thing you can't hide easily. Thankfully we have item-crafting and illusions for that !

Mystic Ranger would also be a good choice, with strong attack and defensive potential, a strong chassis, and Wis synergy for spells.

Lurk and Shadowcaster feel like traps, without enough synergy or stamina. Your abilities will just run out, which sucks.



For IRL utility, crafting + Miracle is clearly the best. It's income, it's utility and convenience magic, it's defenses for your peace of mind. Meanwhile Incarnate brings the all-important massive and versatile skill bonuses, including to social and Knowledge skills.



I'm not sure how you'd mix and match spell slots like that. Is there a Spontaneous Healer? Because, given its spell list, there absolutely should be.

The big downside of the double caster build is the relatively weak chassis for a gestalt, with only d8 HD, 4+INT skills, good Fort and Will and 1/2 BAB. Which, on its own, is pretty solid, but that's all Healer. I'd be tempted to at least shoot for good BAB, if not more skill points, given that getting some means of mixing it up as a muggle is as easy as trading with or befriending Tony. As a fellow with True Ressurection, there are a very scant few people you can't get into the good graces of.

At the same time, there flat out isn't the kind of stand alone power the Warmage delivers with its fantastic high level spells, and the sheer amount of blasting options, available to other classes at T4 or lower.

Warmage for Imploding Thanos, Healer for the absurd, essentially OCP level healing and support spells, which brings with it potentially enormous political benefits (and headaches). This, at the cost of a weak-ish chassis and having to put a good score on Wisdom too.

In the end, even if it means being relatively fragile (as a d8 and medium armor ain't bad) and with relatively few skills, you just can't beat two 9th level progressions. Hey, at least you are mainly worried about CHA and you have Diplo and Sense Motive as class skills. Intimidate, too, which opens up a little Imperious Command/Never Outnumbered side-gig, which is far from shabby.

And damn, Healer even provides you with a loyal Lammasu mount. That's a flying, pouncing, greater invisible Dimension Dooring mount with Cleric 7 casting. It's just a no-brainer, the more I look at it. Decent HD, Diplo and Sense Motive in-class, great mount, enormous political clout due phenomenal healing powers, and Discern Location, Holy Aura, Gate and Foresight to top it all off.

If we are using the re-tiered classes, then it becomes quite a bit harder to go for a definite pick. I'm not familiar with True Namer, Lurk looked very appealing but has a chassis far poorer than I expected (full BAB and/or 6 skill points would go a long way for it), casting like some sort of Psionic Bard, with a small amount of pseudo-SA sprinkled about.

Still, that's got to be some of the best casting on the T4 and under re-tiered list, and has plenty of powerful staples on it, including Mindblank and its own Time Stop, and I heard you can have fun with expanding the list with some Psion stuff?

Shadow Caster seems promising, but very, very weak in stamina, and sounds very limited too, tho the unofficial fix helps quite a bit.

Lurk/Shadow Caster, while incredibly thematic, seems like a poor man's version of Warmage/Healer, with all the disadvantages and not remotely the same advantages. Far less stamina, still weak chassis, not as potent or versatile.

Warlock becomes very strong in the retiered list, as no one really seems to have the oomph to be a clear cut winner in terms of power like the Warmage and Healer, so its slew of decent perks really makes it shine: Clawlock and Beast Strike makes for fantastic and reliable melee damage with very little investment, can go at it all day, sundry invocations make you less reliant on tech to supply things like mobility and enhanced senses, little bit o' durability helps with not dying. And the crafting, of course, opens a great many doors. It costing XP does put a bit of a dampener on it, tho.

Clawlock/Monk makes for a tough, reliable face-punching machine. Kind of too niche for me, tho. I'd like better skills if I'm going to be a face-puncher. Kung Fu Genius and Carmendine Monk?

The only healing that readily comes to mind on a Monk/Clawlock build is by crafting wands, tho.

Note that in the re-tiered Tier list, Warlocks are Tier 3 and are therefore as unavailable as Healer.

I don't actually agree that Warmage is a good choice, by the way. Are attack spells really worth the chassis loss, the versatility loss and the skill points loss? You could be doing far better in all those areas! How important is "I kill people really hard", really?
It also doesn't help your passive defenses.

For example, Warlocks easily get Hide in Plain Sight (Blend into Shadows feat), get sensory ability, get skill boosts, and they're also pretty good at beating things to death + BFC. Sure they can't instantly kill Thanos, but they can do a lot of damage in a round while staying hidden and Teleporting around. If backed by a class or gear granting Silence or Evasion, they're even better!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

EDIT : I only just realised that many Incarnate soulmelds are stupidly obvious. They're big glowy thing you can't hide easily. Thankfully we have item-crafting and illusions for that !Note that soulmelds count as magic items for the purposes of spell targeting, so use invisibility (or better yet, sequester) to make them unnoticeable when you need them to be. [edit] Ring of invisibility for invisibility at will is invaluable, here.

Combine with Extended alter self when you're not using your superhero ID; 20 minutes per level seems to be a decent amount of time, especially at higher levels.

[TotallyNotEvil]

How does that trick with Earth Spell work, exactly?

And damn, the re-tiered list makes this so much harder.

I think being incredibly good at killing a whole bunch of people would be a particularly valuable ability in the MCU, especially for someone who's a target as valuable as a mind-boggling oy valuable as a 20th level Healer.

Besides, with the Lammasu mount providing up to fourth level cleric spells, and your own Warmage + Healer list, there are a whole damn lot of itens you could craft.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How does that trick with Earth Spell work, exactly?Combine with Heighten to increase the effective level you can cast to 2+ levels higher than you normally could. Extra Spell Slot would grant you an extra spell slot (duh) higher than what your class allows, which Earth Spell/Heighten/Etc would boost even higher. Repeat until you've got 10th+ level spells at level 1, if you have enough feats. (You could also take Extra Slot twice, then keep retraining one feat into springboarding off the other to get higher and higher level slots, so you only need four feats to get 10ths at level 1.)


And damn, the re-tiered list makes this so much harder.Doesn't affect my psithief//psyrogue at all, since they're both T4 classes for both lists. The fact that some decent optimization would allow me to hang out with the T1 crowd is immaterial. :smallamused:

For instance, taking Leadership and pulling in an 18th level StP erudite would allow me to get all powers known, up to my maximum, and since that includes all arcane spells up to 6th level (or greater, if I can cheese my way into 7+ level powers)... And it's even wider than that, since there are numerous ways to turn all divine spells into arcane spells (and thus into psionic powers). Get all psion/discipline list/psywar powers known, all wizard/sorc/bard spells known, and all cleric/druid/shugenja spells known as powers known, that I can spontaneously manifest as (Su) abilities without worrying about AoOs, Concentration checks, SR/PR, or material/XP costs, and all at x2 ML? Yes, please!

Suck it, MCU! This T4 (gestalt) is coming to curbstomp! Muahahahaha!


I think being incredibly good at killing a whole bunch of people would be a particularly valuable ability in the MCU, especially for someone who's a target as valuable as a mind-boggling oy valuable as a 20th level Healer.Quite.


Besides, with the Lammasu mount providing up to fourth level cleric spells, and your own Warmage + Healer list, there are a whole damn lot of itens you could craft.There is that. And remember, you can use cleric casting to gain access to other lists, as well, via calling and summoning.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

How does that trick with Earth Spell work, exactly?

And damn, the re-tiered list makes this so much harder.

I think being incredibly good at killing a whole bunch of people would be a particularly valuable ability in the MCU, especially for someone who's a target as valuable as a mind-boggling oy valuable as a 20th level Healer.

Besides, with the Lammasu mount providing up to fourth level cleric spells, and your own Warmage + Healer list, there are a whole damn lot of itens you could craft.

The ideal fighting style lets you win all the time while having other options than "kill everyone, all the time"
That's my main issue with Warmage.
Remember that a gun is something like 2d6 damage, and a high-level warmage can casually deal more damage with cantrips thanks to Warmage's Edge.

Although as I'm writing this, I just remembered that there's a feat called Subdual Substitution that makes your spells nonethal. That would make Warmage far better than Warlock at blasting, though not at utility, stealth or skill boosting.



As for how the Earth Spell trick works?
1. If you can cast a 10th-level spell, you can take Extra Slot and get an extra level 9 spell slot.
2. Earth Spell is a feat that lets you beat the "spells can't be Heightened beyond 9th level" restriction.
3. Residual Magic lets you cast 10th-level spells without needing a 9th-level spell slots already : heighten a cantrip to level 1, then next round use Residual Magic to cast that cantrip Heightened to 10th-level out of a cantrip slot. You can now cast 10th-level spells, and qualify to start taking Extra Slot to take extra 9ths.

Here is what the feats on an Incarnate/Religious(Luck Domain) Adept would look like:
1 : Heighten Spell, Wedded to History. If Flaws are allowed, take two irrelevant feats that will be retrained into Extra Slot later. AFAIK the usual qualification restrictions for retraining old feats aren't an issue here, because the limit on Extra Slot isn't a prerequisite. Technically nothing is stopping you from using retraining to move all of your Extra Slots up a level every time you gain a new spell level.
3 : Earth Sense
6 : Earth Spell
9 : Residual Magic
12 : Extra Slot (9th-level)
15 : Extra Slot (9th-level)
18 : Extra Slot (9th-level)

No need for item creation feats, they're all accessible through Polymorph anyway.

EDIT : I'm assuming that Leadership is banned. Because if it isn't it's possible to take a Draconic Cohort, stick Monstrous Thrall on it, and sending it to an accelerated time plane so that you can have a pet Great Wyrm :D
I'd pick a maximum-Evil breed of Dragon, just to avoid feeling like an utter **** about this. Hard to empathise with something evil and inhuman-looking, after all.
Or you could just take Improved Cohort and take another 19th-level Gestalt person, this time a Wizard/Psion or something equally ridiculously powerful. That feels like it's going against the question's RAI though, so I didn't take it.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Eh, not sure about betting on something like "Earth Spell to get Miracles at lv 1", given the constraints of the exercise. That sort of cheese is TO.

Same with "I use Leadership to get an 18th level T1 cohort".

Goes against the spirit of the deal, and you don't want to try and get one over Pun Pun.

Also, PsyRogue is T3 on the retiered list.

@edit: That's a hella shaky reading, as you are saying you can heighten infinitely through residual Metamagic when you just heightened by one level before.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Eh, not sure about betting on something like "Earth Spell to get Miracles at lv 1", given the constraints of the exercise. That sort of cheese is TO.

Even avoiding retraining abuse, you can get your first miracle at level 12. Far too feat-intensive for a normal game (who wants to be that much of a one-trick pony?), but it makes more sense here.

Considering the setting, I'll push the T4 restriction as far as it will go, honestly. Being a 20th-level Mystic Ranger/Rogue is cool and all (or some other combo involving Monk and Lurk and whatnot, as have been bandied about in this thread), but I prefer Miracle and Polymorph abuse :D

[TotallyNotEvil]

Even avoiding retraining abuse, you can get your first miracle at level 12.
Considering the setting, I'll push the T4 restriction as far as it will go, honestly. Being a 20th-level Mystic Ranger/Rogue is cool and all (or some other combo involving Monk and Lurk and whatnot, as have been bandied about in this thread), but I prefer Miracle and Polymorph abuse :D

As you missed the edit, the Residual Metamagic for infinite heightening seems extraordinarily shaky.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Eh, not sure about betting on something like "Earth Spell to get Miracles at lv 1", given the constraints of the exercise. That sort of cheese is TO.

Same with "I use Leadership to get an 18th level T1 cohort".

Goes against the spirit of the deal, and you don't want to try and get one over Pun Pun.I'd be using him as a battery nigh exclusively for my own benefits. If nothing else, I'd be using spells and items (yay thought bottle!) to get the same effect, so the StP erudite isn't necessary, but it does make it easier.

Also, not going Pun-Pun. Just optimizing the hell out of myself. And why not? It's my survival on the line (as well as everyone else's in the entire universe, for that matter), and it's not exactly like I have a gaming group that I don't want to tick off by obviating them.


Also, PsyRogue is T3 on the retiered list.According to this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23406620&postcount=1), psyrogue is T4.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Eh, not sure about betting on something like "Earth Spell to get Miracles at lv 1", given the constraints of the exercise. That sort of cheese is TO.

Same with "I use Leadership to get an 18th level T1 cohort".

Goes against the spirit of the deal, and you don't want to try and get one over Pun Pun.

Also, PsyRogue is T3 on the retiered list.

@edit: That's a hella shaky reading, as you are saying you can heighten infinitely through residual Metamagic when you just heightened by one level before.
You can't heighten infinitely. It's capped at level 9 (10 with Earth Spell).
And IMO it's not a shaky reading, it's simply the way the Residual Magic feat works as written. I first found out about it in a Shadowcraft Mage handbook when I first played one. It seems to be pretty accepted there.

[Psyren]

According to this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23406620&postcount=1), psyrogue is T4.

I pegged it at T3 in my handbook. Yes, there aren't psionic versions of Vine Strike etc, but you're still a full manifester, you can whip out something like an astral construct to deal with those (either from Expanded Knowledge or a power stone with UPD.)

[Quertus]

Eh, not sure about betting on something like "Earth Spell to get Miracles at lv 1", given the constraints of the exercise. That sort of cheese is TO.

Same with "I use Leadership to get an 18th level T1 cohort".

Goes against the spirit of the deal, and you don't want to try and get one over Pun Pun.

Actually, if Pun Pun were the "powerful being", one would think he would appreciate some (lesser) optimization-foo, and maybe exercise some benevolent prejudicial discretion to give beneficial WBL gear, place the user in an advantageous time & place, etc.

[Troacctid]

And damn, the re-tiered list makes this so much harder.
Yep! Definitely shows off how much more accurate it is compared to the older ranking. There shouldn't be obvious outliers that are clearly more powerful than every other class in their tier.


According to this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23406620&postcount=1), psyrogue is T4.
More votes trickled in after that post, and the final tally put it at 3.4, rounding to 3.

[Maat Mons]

Now that I think about it, Warmage wouldn't be a bad choice for the OG list. You could take Arcane Disciple (Luck domain) for 1/day Miracle, at least.

Or, if you're more ambitious, go with the Domination domain for Monstrous Thrall 1/day. Instantaneous-duration domination! Mantis got inside the heads of both Thanos and Ego, so there are clearly some powerful people without immunity to mind-affecting effects.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

A thought : you can take Profession (Gambler) 23 ranks. Assuming Profession carries over (proportionately to upkeep costs, that is) it's enough to make a decent living doing nothing but gambling.

This isn't the best way to monetize your new abilities, but it's still far better than theft. It's also less noticeable than most other options.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If I had to use lurk instead of psyrogue, I would, but I'd be completely ignoring class features aside from manifesting and maybe sneak attack, not that the lurk has any to speak of. The ones it has are piss-poor and not with learning the mechanics of.

[Thurbane]

Warnage would also open up the Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium, allowing another 9 spells known.

[White Blade]

A thought : you can take Profession (Gambler) 23 ranks. Assuming Profession carries over (proportionately to upkeep costs, that is) it's enough to make a decent living doing nothing but gambling.

This isn't the best way to monetize your new abilities, but it's still far better than theft. It's also less noticeable than most other options.

You can monetize Tumble, fit the frenetic action scenes, and not waste skill ranks.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Profession (Engineer) or (M.D.) or freaking (Marvel Scientist), if you want to be cheeky and/or push your luck with the ROB a bit, would yield frankly amazing returns, IMO.

Besides the obvious practical aspect, being a world-class professional, for Marvel standards even, is just extraordinarily rewarding on its own.

In any case, while the OG List makes it fairly easy with Warmage, Healer, Warlock and PsyRogue in contention, the New List makes things significantly more challenging.

Which class amongst the New T4s stands on its own the most? With the least reliance on stats (or that uses INT/CHA) and feats? Something with good stamina and, preferably, durability.

Makes me think of something like Rogue or Ranger.

What would best complement a Shadow Caster or Lurk, in the new list?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Profession (Engineer) or (M.D.) or freaking (Marvel Scientist), if you want to be cheeky and/or push your luck with the ROB a bit, would yield frankly amazing returns, IMO.

Besides the obvious practical aspect, being a world-class professional, for Marvel standards even, is just extraordinarily rewarding on its own.What skills would it take to pull a Tony Stark and get extremely powerful Tinkertech in short order?


In any case, while the OG List makes it fairly easy with Warmage, Healer, Warlock and PsyRogue in contention, the New List makes things significantly more challenging.

Which class amongst the New T4s stands on its own the most? With the least reliance on stats (or that uses INT/CHA) and feats? Something with good stamina and, preferably, durability.

Makes me think of something like Rogue or Ranger.

What would best complement a Shadow Caster or Lurk, in the new list?Well, (psi)thief // lurk with Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) and Master (Psi)thief would be fairly powerful, especially since any manifester has tons of options for getting stuff outside of his class list, as well as droves of pp regeneration strategies.

Too bad everything else on lurk is the definition of BLAAAAAAAH.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Google can't find me a "(psi)thief". @edit: A Psionic Spellthief? Depending on how it interacts with superpowers, it could go from a downgrade to an incredible upgrade.

A Rogue/Shadowcaster build is actually looking very attractive, given the constraints of Retiering. At least if one uses the semi-official Errata, actually going through the Mysteries list top-to-bottom and assembling a good slew of abilities isn't that hard.

That'd give you d6 HD, 8+INT skills, all good saves, 3/4 BAB, and all the Rogue goodies. You ought to be a pretty damn good fighter with BAB 15 and 10d6 SA, it's not dependent on high stats to work, Shadowcaster already needed decent INT and you've got all the face skills so the high CHA wont go to waste, and you've got many ways of throwing everything into a darkness which you are the only one that can see through.

Shadow Skin, Flicker and Bolster can significantly up your durability, so the d6 isn't all bad.

And hey, the Shadowcaster has a super neat trick with its roided out Mage Hand (called Umbral Hand) and a first level mystery granting a whopping +15 to Sleight of Hand. Let's face it, "get the MacGuffin" is something everyone in the MCU does on a worryingly frequent basis, and that's your gig, yo.

Plane Shift ability, paired with some budget powered suit to resist vacuum, would allow for instant interplanetary travel: just cast twice.

Soul Puppet is straight up Dominate Monster. You've still got a mini-Foresight, Time Stop and Wail of the Banshee as top-shelf ninths, and one more to taste, including the huge, but double edged, Black Labyrinth, or you can double black for some lower level gem.

Yeah, I'd probably be happy with that, even under the highly limiting Retiered lost. Highly versatile, brings quite a few unique aspects to the table, and rock-solid reliable at the end of the day, with one half being a plain, but almost god-like (due the level) Rogue who can keep up with the heavy Science aspect with the best of them due a maxed Profession skill or two.

Even if I'd probably beg the ROB for PsyRogue instead of the common one :smalltongue:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Google can't find me a "(psi)thief". @edit: A Psionic Spellthief?Yes. It's a suggested adaptation for the spellthief. I should probably just write it out normally. I usually write it out like that to point out that it is an adaptation (albeit an absurdly easy one), rather than a bona fide class on its own.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Yes. It's a suggested adaptation for the spellthief. I should probably just write it out normally. I usually write it out like that to point out that it is an adaptation (albeit an absurdly easy one), rather than a bona fide class on its own.
Depending on how it interacts with superpowers, Spellthief could very well be the gem of the Retiered list.

Even if the transparency between superpowers and spells is almost non-existent, you've still got yourself twenty arcane spells known, four of each 1st-4th, from a respectable list. Few slots, but still, any magic is decent magic at this point.

The one thing that stops it from being more or less a straight up upgrade, at least in this scenario, is the lack of Face skills.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Depending on how it interacts with superpowers, Spellthief could very well be the gem of the Retiered list.

Even if the transparency between superpowers and spells is almost non-existent, you've still got yourself twenty arcane spells known, four of each 1st-4th, from a respectable list. Few slots, but still, any magic is decent magic at this point.

The one thing that stops it from being more or less a straight up upgrade, at least in this scenario, is the lack of Face skills.I still want psithief // psyrogue. Convert the former's spells to an appropriate powers list and its spell slots to power points. Master Psithief, of course, does what Master Spellthief does, but with manifesting classes. As I said, it's not a difficult conversion, but it does require some. x2 ML with all the benefits of psionic optimization would be...

...nice.

I don't know if I could handle, say, Phoenix in a straight-up fight, but Thanos wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem after I got done with him.

I'd definitely be taking that gauntlet for myself, sho' 'nuff.

[edit] There are a lot more psychic-types Pokemon in the Marvel Universe than there are spellcasters, so psithievery would undoubtedly see more use.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I'm pretty sure you couldn't use Master Spellthief like you are suggesting as you aren't a level 2*X Psithief X/PsyRogue X, you are a level X combination, aka gestalt, of Psithief X and PsyRogue X.

At best I think one could argue for the PP to stack, but honestly I don't think you'd need the Master Spellthief for that, as afaik PP are PP, regardless of source. I can't recall offhand something that gives you PP and doesn't stack with a class or other things which also do.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm pretty sure you couldn't use Master Spellthief like you are suggesting as you aren't a level 2*X Psithief X/PsyRogue X, you are a level X combination, aka gestalt, of Psithief X and PsyRogue X.Well, your psyrogue ML would be 20, and your psithief ML would be 20. 20 + 20 = ?

Yay math?

Also, "PsyRogue" sounds like a pretty kickass super ID.


At best I think one could argue for the PP to stack, but honestly I don't think you'd need the Master Spellthief for that, as afaik PP are PP, regardless of source. I can't recall offhand something that gives you PP and doesn't stack with a class or other things which also do.All pp pool together, unless it's something like Psiforged Body that explicitly grants a secondary pool.

[rmnimoc]

I'm surprised there isn't more truenamer in this. It's kind if crap at a table, but if you're starting off level 20 you don't have to deal with all those levels of suck before you get Conjunctive Gate, which basically means you've got access to any spell on any list, as well as an easy way to bail if things get hectic. For the checks you can snag the Item Familiar feat and never have issues with them again.

Personally I'd probably go Truenamer/Savant, you get the power to reshape reality with your words, some basic arcane and divine magic, and the knowledge that you could do a pretty good job pretending to be just like every other smart person in the MCU that got apparently got their degree in "Science" instead of any actual specific thing.

[Troacctid]

If I had to use lurk instead of psyrogue, I would, but I'd be completely ignoring class features aside from manifesting and maybe sneak attack, not that the lurk has any to speak of. The ones it has are piss-poor and not with learning the mechanics of.
True Thief variant gives you skill mastery that you can swap at will to a different set of skills, and Tracker variant gives you metafaculty as a lurk augment. So those are both pretty decent.


Yes. It's a suggested adaptation for the spellthief. I should probably just write it out normally. I usually write it out like that to point out that it is an adaptation (albeit an absurdly easy one), rather than a bona fide class on its own.
The suggested adaptation doesn't swap out spellcasting for manifesting, though, it just affects psionics instead of spells with its class abilities.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

True Thief variant gives you skill mastery that you can swap at will to a different set of skills, and Tracker variant gives you metafaculty as a lurk augment. So those are both pretty decent.


The suggested adaptation doesn't swap out spellcasting for manifesting, though, it just affects psionics instead of spells with its class abilities.Hmm. Psionic spellthief using spell points and taking the Magic mantle? Forced identicality of magic and psionics, and both use points that work exactly the same ways...

Even if they don't pool together (and I could see a DM familiar with psionics ruling that they do), it's still better than slots. Spell points are always better than slots.

[edit] Actually, lurk might be better than psyrogue. Sure, its class abilities suck (although true thief has potential), but lurk gets 6th level powers, while psyrogue only gets 5th. If I'm gonna be getting a ton of powers outside of my normal class list...

[Malphegor]

Scout. I remember seeing a build once where you could have uncapped skirmish damage based on how far you move (well, fall) in the round that you do the attack. Now, heavy hitters aren’t unknown, but with some of the tools available in Marvel (sling ring teleportation gates, really fast spaceship engines, a box of scraps) one can probably get a sizeable distance travelled in one ‘round’.

Then we just need to figure out a method to not be turned into chunky salsa when fired out of a Kirbyesque Space Crossbow at whatever threat is of note to us today.


(seriously though, get a Scout, give them improved initiative and danger sense, a couple of Rod of Ropes, and an eternal dorje of Entangling Ectoplasm in wand bracers in each arm, and you can probably make a very weak copy of Spider-Man’s basic abilities.)

[Troacctid]

Hmm. Psionic spellthief using spell points and taking the Magic mantle? Forced identicality of magic and psionics, and both use points that work exactly the same ways...

Even if they don't pool together (and I could see a DM familiar with psionics ruling that they do), it's still better than slots. Spell points are always better than slots.
Magic mantle + spell points doesn't work the way you want; they'd still be separate pools. I'm pretty sure you'd need the mind mage prestige class. I don't think prestige classes are allowed for this exercise though.

[FaerieGodfather]

I've thought about similar scenarios a lot... and from a D&D perspective, the T4-T5 restriction murders my soul.

But from a Marvel perspective? Soulknife|Ninja is a lot like the least important parts of the powerset I want. If it's not fixed progression, a 1-level dip in Soulbow is real refreshing. It's been long enough since I've played with more than a smattering of 3.x material... so I don't remember if any Prestige Classes extended the the range of Sneak Attack. The Assassin spell list isn't bad for maxing out at 4th level spells.

This build is a Hell of a lot better in Pathfinder, where Soulknfe is a Tier 3 class and Monk archetypes can support it in Gestalt. Soulbolt/Cutthroat | Zen Archer is actually really nice for a non-spellcaster.

Something to remember about Monk is that it's a great class if you combine it with something else that does all the doing stuff.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Someone else pointed this out to me, but if PF Monk is allowed, then Qinggong to get Akashic Form should let you survive even the Snap.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Someone else pointed this out to me, but if PF Monk is allowed, then Qinggong to get Akashic Form should let you survive even the Snap.So long as you're not considered on the same plane, that would protect you, too. In an earlier post, I mentioned being ethereal, using either form of planar bubble (spell or planar shepherd), and properly utilizing the acorn of far travel spell on an oak tree on some other plane.

What other ways could protect us (read: me :smallamused:) from the Infinity Gauntlet?

[White Blade]

So long as you're not considered on the same plane, that would protect you, too. In an earlier post, I mentioned being ethereal, using either form of planar bubble (spell or planar shepherd), and properly utilizing the acorn of far travel spell on an oak tree on some other plane.

What other ways could protect us (read: me :smallamused:) from the Infinity Gauntlet?

Serenity Paladinshould let you use persist Death Ward. Monks have SR 30 and getting to another plane through etherealness. Um... It’s a Gauntlet I’d Alter Reality, you can’t really be immune to it

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Serenity Paladinshould let you use persist Death Ward.I doubt it's a death effect. It's more of a no-SR-no-attack-roll-no-save-just-die disintegrate effect of a greater artifact. I seriously doubt death ward would help.

Mayhaps a level 10 entropomancer would be immune?


Um... It’s a Gauntlet I’d Alter Reality, you can’t really be immune to itThe Infinity Gauntlet does not work outside of its home plane, nor can it affect anything not on its home plane.

There're several characters from alternate parallel realities who have their realities' versions of the Infinity Gauntlet, and none of them work outside of their home realities. They've even formed a coalition of Infinity Gauntlet wielders.

Marvel is weird.

[TotallyNotEvil]

That's why I love the Akashic Form move: it's simple and extremely elegant, and leaves no doubt as to its success.

The ethereal/shadow are bordering planes/reflections of the Material, so I can easily see the gauntlet affecting you there.

[Stoic]

In heavyfuel's retiered classes, does the Tier 4 Ninja refer to the one from Complete Adventurer or the one from the Rokugan Campaign Setting or both?

The Quintessential Ninja Handbook refers to them as two separate classes.

http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php?topic=682.0

[Quertus]

The Infinity Gauntlet does not work outside of its home plane, nor can it affect anything not on its home plane.

There're several characters from alternate parallel realities who have their realities' versions of the Infinity Gauntlet, and none of them work outside of their home realities. They've even formed a coalition of Infinity Gauntlet wielders.

Is this from the comics? Is the Gauntlet still as potent as it used to be, or is it the watered down / hazardous movie version? Does something created by the gauntlet continue to exist outside its home universe? Because I've now got an idea to run a character who was created by an alternate reality's gauntlet, and want to know if that's a feasible backstory.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is this from the comics?Yes.


Is the Gauntlet still as potent as it used to be, or is it the watered down / hazardous movie version?I'm not sure what this means, so I don't know.

If it means what I think it means, no, the gauntlet doesn't work at all outside of its home reality. Not directly, at any rate.


Does something created by the gauntlet continue to exist outside its home universe? Because I've now got an idea to run a character who was created by an alternate reality's gauntlet, and want to know if that's a feasible backstory.If the gauntlet was used to craft a mechanical or biological being not powered by the gauntlet at all? I imagine that could work. Like, if its power was used to replace the genetic engineering or nano-scale mechanical work, but it was made from preexisting materials instead of being created out of the gauntlet's power, that would likely function normally outside the universe.

Anything that was created directly by the gauntlet, or powered by it, however, no.

Think of it like the fabricate spell vs Conjuration (Creation/Summoning) spells. The former is simply rearranging extant molecules to become what you are shaping it into. The latter is actually made from artificial energies and would be dispersed when outside the range of the gauntlet.

[Sutr]

I'm going to throw in with in with NG Truenamer. Then a multi class build for the other side for the other side Ranger 2/OA samurai 2/incarnate 16.

Feats are more important: Knowledge Devotion, Combat Reflexes, Sidestep, Rolibar's Gambit, Nemesis, Ancestral Relic, Item Familiar, quicken utterance.

If none of the money is used on your feats and ancestral daisho, you get to earth being able to double your WBL. This can be done in a lot of different ways random artifacts like little stones being destroyed, superweapons, drugs, buildings, old nuclear materials. Lots of things have a value if they are just magically removed permanently.

You'd be a competent skill monkey for knowledge and your soulmelds. Maybe hit truename DC's. Be able to sidestep out of melee. Nemesis should let you see your choice of creature or arcane.