Alignment... How I hate and love you?

[Tawmis]

So alignment - I know a lot of people hate.

But I think it makes for a good base line of how a character might act. You do have traits and such now in 5e. But alignment sort of ensures that a "Chaotic Good" fighter who saves a town from goblins one morning, doesn't wake up the next morning, in a bad mood, and decides to kill the town and take their gold for kicks.

However, I had an interesting situation.
I have a cleric who is True Neutral - as is the goddess he follows (Goddess of Rain and Thunder).
So the party goes shows up at Spire's Edge - small town that had been attacked by a dragon and kobolds that decimated the town. (More than 90% of the town was officially in ruins)
The mayor sees the adventurers and flags them down and says, "Yeah, the town's in bad shape - even worse, just before this attack - something happened in the mines in those yonder mountains. We mine those mines for gold, silver, and steel. Something happened where the miners did not return. So we sent the city guards, it's been a week now - and they've not returned. We need to get the mine back so we can start getting materials to rebuild the town."
The party agrees to look into it - and what they discover is that the miners had dug too close to a Neogi tunnel - which allowed these previously unseen, unheard, monster into the mines where they slaughtered the miners. And eventually the city guard.
In comes the party fights some monsters, finds the neogi, kills them - figures out what happened - seals the cavern section where the Neogi had come from. They find the city guards swords and collect them and bring them back to the smith to see the value - the smith says those are swords he forged - and the family would love them back so they can be buried with their loved ones (in my world, it's much like the Viking idea where the war of good vs evil continues in the afterlife, so it's important to be buried with your weapons, wands, etc). The Cleric who is true neutral and serves a goddess who is also true neutral says, "I don't think I'd give them back. I am true neutral. I want to sell them for money."

So a fighter who is true neutral... I might see doing that. A cleric though - should they respect the idea that ALL the gods share - that the battle continues in the after life and these swords should be given to their loved ones to be buried with? Or should religion not play a part for the cleric (and thus sort of disrespecting even your own goddess who would want YOU buried with your weapon) by disregarding that notion and selling it for gold?

[Millstone85]

So a fighter who is true neutral... I might see doing that. A cleric thoughIf you feel that the cleric is disobeying the commandments of his goddess, then alignment is a secondary matter. Were he neutral evil or chaotic neutral (going by the old one-step-removed rule), it would still be out of character.

[Andy 7t1]

So we sent the city guards, it's been a week now - and they've not returned. ...

They find the city guards swords and collect them and bring them back to the smith to see the value - the smith says those are swords he forged - and the family would love them back so they can be buried with their loved ones

Did they find & bring back the bodies as well?

What happens in the future if they kill the BBEG who had a magic sword? Is the cleric allowed to take it or does it have to be buried with them for the same reason? Killing people & stealing their stuff is a long standing D&D cliche.

[MoiMagnus]

So a fighter who is true neutral... I might see doing that. A cleric though - should they respect the idea that ALL the gods share - that the battle continues in the after life and these swords should be given to their loved ones to be buried with? Or should religion not play a part for the cleric (and thus sort of disrespecting even your own goddess who would want YOU buried with your weapon) by disregarding that notion and selling it for gold?

As said by Millstone85, the alignment here is irrelevant. "Is the deity ok with this behavior" is the only relevant thing here.

A LG cleric of a "vengeful Good" deity which think that "everything is worth the victory of the greater good" could totally disrespect the dead and sell the weapons to fund their holy quest.

What is the position of the Goddess of Rain and Thunder here? As a True Neutral deity, she might not care at all if its cleric are traditionalist and respect the codes, or if they ignore the social conventions as they please ; or she might care a lot. The DM's choice. (Though the DM should have talked with the player about the expected behavior of a cleric of this goddess beforehand, the player should not be surprised by the decision).

[Great Dragon]

I agree that it is more "does the Deity approve?"

So, is your True Neutral Deity refusing to participate in the Alignment War?

If so, do they still Respect the other Gods, and would encourage the burial of weapons with fallen warriors?
(Perhaps Denying Evil Foes their weapons, aids the Good Guys?)

Or is the Deity just Personally unemotional towards Events outside thier Portfolio/Domains?

In this case, selling the weapons for money might be perfectly acceptable, since the buyer could then decide whether or not to respect the Dead.


It also depends on how your treating Alignments, especially the various Neutrals.

Is Alignment a Code of Conduct;: to be followed as closely as possible?

Do the NPCs have Social Expectations for Behavior, and re/act accordingly?

Or are the Alignments just Emotional Guidelines for General Behavior?

Good = Helpful.
Evil = Malicious.

Lawful being a preference for cooperation to achieve greater Goals?

Chaotic just being Independent?

The DM Explaning thier prefered use of Alignments for their Games, and also asking their Players what they believe Alignment is, and coming to an agreement;
This helps me keep confusion to a minimum.

Also, whether or not Religion is counted separately from Social Expectations in the game World.

Remember that a lot of RL Social Standards for "Good" (and some more focused on what constitutes "Evil") were put into place by Religious beliefs. Amazingly enough, large Civilization based Societies promote/enforce what Lawful Behavior ensues.

Now, I'm not trying to create a RL Religion debate, here. But, there can be comparisons to how Churches of different D&D Deities might behave, both to thier followers, and especially towards other Churches.

There are several Gaming Sources where there's a Church of an Evil Deity right in town, because there's the equivalent of The Pact Primeval between all the Gods.

For Good vs Bad:
It can depend on the Economy of the area.
Can the Families if those fallen guards afford to buy the weapons directly from the Character/s?

If not Good could be donating them.
Evil wouldn't just sell them, they'd take them to another Region to sell, even they didn't make a profit.
Denying the fallen their weapons in the Afterlife is the point, here. (with screwing the family a bonus)


*****
For those interested on how I like to Run my games, peruse
Ancient Realms (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?591658-Ancient-Realms)

[suplee215]

I feel like too often players to "what will my alignment do" where I think the better way to look at the alignment is "what does my actions say about my alignment"? People can act a little out of character under circumstances and unless ot creates a long history of that type of action that suggests a different alignment it doesnt really work.

[Segev]

OOC, I think the simple solution is to have the NPCs buy the swords back from the PCs. Keeps the player happy and also is in line with "give a commensurate reward" for their retrieval.

Having the PC's god disapprove is certainly a thing, but you want to be careful and consistent with things like that, because the player will be highly likely to perceive it as heavy-handed railroading if there's frequent run-ins, and ANY apparent inconsistency will make him start to assume the "real" consistent thing is that the DM wants him to follow the rails.

Is the notion of grave goods following the dead into the afterlife a thing in your setting?

[Great Dragon]

Is the notion of grave goods following the dead into the afterlife a thing in your setting?

It is interesting, since there are some Plots hiding there.

If so, maybe a History or Religion Check DC 15 will tell the PC/s the facts about this.

Necromancers (and Clerics) creating Undead get armed and armored Minions. Maybe their creation of Sentient Undead pulls the Soul out of the Afterlife?

Grave Robbing is more likely for quick cash.
But doing this creates vengeful Undead:
Specters, Ghosts, and Revenants.
Tolken did this with Burrow Wights.

Even the Evil dead get upset by anyone disturbing their Graves and Tombs, and can become Those above.

[Mercurias]

I’m in agreement with the others that the stance and teachings of the cleric’s god would determine his response on whether he should or shouldn’t commit himself to another religion’s heresy.

Some gods are entirely okay with sticking it to other religions, particularly religions they don’t like. Other gods might want respect to be shown, particularly lawful or good gods.

I would think on the god’s response to it and talk to the player so you’re both on the same page. I’d make sure to take the player’s views especially into account. After all, the goal is mutual understanding and making the game fun for everybody.

Lastly, and this is just my two cents, in a culture that places so much value on a person’s weapon, I would have ruled that those weapons belonged to the guards’ next of kin, taken the weapons, and offered the heroes a reward for gathering them. That’s less because I have a deep need to be a railroading GM and more because of the setting.

[Tawmis]

If you feel that the cleric is disobeying the commandments of his goddess, then alignment is a secondary matter. Were he neutral evil or chaotic neutral (going by the old one-step-removed rule), it would still be out of character.

That's how I felt... I would think that the Goddess would want soldiers to be armed in the afterlife.


Did they find & bring back the bodies as well?

What happens in the future if they kill the BBEG who had a magic sword? Is the cleric allowed to take it or does it have to be buried with them for the same reason? Killing people & stealing their stuff is a long standing D&D cliche.

So if they go and kill the Big Bad Evil Guy - the Cleric could take the weapon, if they were feeling good (because why allow the evil forces to have a weapon in the after life?)
And agreed - killing and looting SHOULD be a part of D&D... but should you also be looting the bodies of good people, who have families who ask for those possessions back? I feel like too many CRPGs have put this mentality in place... (for example in Neverwinter Nights, you can walk into a good aligned temple, as a good character yourself, and just rifle through everyone's possessions).


I agree that it is more "does the Deity approve?"
So, is your True Neutral Deity refusing to participate in the Alignment War?
If so, do they still Respect the other Gods, and would encourage the burial of weapons with fallen warriors?
(Perhaps Denying Evil Foes their weapons, aids the Good Guys?)
Or is the Deity just Personally unemotional towards Events outside thier Portfolio/Domains?
In this case, selling the weapons for money might be perfectly acceptable, since the buyer could then decide whether or not to respect the Dead.




What is the position of the Goddess of Rain and Thunder here? As a True Neutral deity, she might not care at all if its cleric are traditionalist and respect the codes, or if they ignore the social conventions as they please ; or she might care a lot. The DM's choice. (Though the DM should have talked with the player about the expected behavior of a cleric of this goddess beforehand, the player should not be surprised by the decision).

I have talked to them before the game session - and though true neutral, she does favor mercy to the poor (whether good or evil). So she brings rain to fill their barrels or water their farms.
So since Spire's Edge is in ruins, and the people have lost so much - I'd think in this case she'd side with the families. If this was a major town, and they had thousands of guards, I think she'd be fine if the weapons were sold.


I feel like too often players to "what will my alignment do" where I think the better way to look at the alignment is "what does my actions say about my alignment"? People can act a little out of character under circumstances and unless ot creates a long history of that type of action that suggests a different alignment it doesnt really work.

I think the player in question is just more concerned with hack and slash and not so much the story components.



Lastly, and this is just my two cents, in a culture that places so much value on a person’s weapon, I would have ruled that those weapons belonged to the guards’ next of kin, taken the weapons, and offered the heroes a reward for gathering them. That’s less because I have a deep need to be a railroading GM and more because of the setting.

OOC, I think the simple solution is to have the NPCs buy the swords back from the PCs. Keeps the player happy and also is in line with "give a commensurate reward" for their retrieval.
Having the PC's god disapprove is certainly a thing, but you want to be careful and consistent with things like that, because the player will be highly likely to perceive it as heavy-handed railroading if there's frequent run-ins, and ANY apparent inconsistency will make him start to assume the "real" consistent thing is that the DM wants him to follow the rails.
Is the notion of grave goods following the dead into the afterlife a thing in your setting?

So they had asked me (out of character) if they could sell it to the families (after the smith explained where the swords came from).
And I explained, since 90% of Spire's Edge is in ruin from the Dragon & Kobold attack - most families here have lost their homes and all of their possessions (either to the fires or to the raiding kobolds). So most people wouldn't even be able to pay for the swords, since they're using what money they can muster for food and shelter (and by shelter I mean tattered tents).


It is interesting, since there are some Plots hiding there.
If so, maybe a History or Religion Check DC 15 will tell the PC/s the facts about this.
Necromancers creating Undead get armed and armored Minions.
Grave Robbing is more likely for quick cash.
But doing this creates vengeful Undead:
Specters, Ghosts, and Revenants.
Tolken did this with Burrow Wights.
Even the Evil dead get upset by anyone disturbing their Graves and Tombs, and can become Those above.

Indeed - so in the world "Necromancy" (in the 'evil' sense - such as raising the dead, extending your own life through unnatural means such as a Lich, etc) are all crimes punishable by death. (Think Salem Witch Trials - so some people are killed for Necromancy when they didn't even do it!) But this is enforced because of the belief that the dead are needed in the afterlife.

[Segev]

So they had asked me (out of character) if they could sell it to the families (after the smith explained where the swords came from).
And I explained, since 90% of Spire's Edge is in ruin from the Dragon & Kobold attack - most families here have lost their homes and all of their possessions (either to the fires or to the raiding kobolds). So most people wouldn't even be able to pay for the swords, since they're using what money they can muster for food and shelter (and by shelter I mean tattered tents).Perhaps, then, if the goddess would wish the cleric to behave other than how the cleric('s player) wishes to, the goddess should offer a carrot along with the stick. She requires those weapons in the hands of the dead for her war to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls; perhaps, then, she can afford a Boon or Charm (or plural thereof, up to one for each PC) to bless the party with that is worth approximately what the swords would've sold for.

Or, how does the party feel about indentured servitude? Perhaps one or more family members of the fallen will offer their service as camp followers, squires, attendants, or what-have-you in return for the swords. Heck, a sly one of them might see how the PCs live and think it's better than the life they have ahead of them with this devastation.


Indeed - so in the world "Necromancy" (in the 'evil' sense - such as raising the dead, extending your own life through unnatural means such as a Lich, etc) are all crimes punishable by death. (Think Salem Witch Trials - so some people are killed for Necromancy when they didn't even do it!) But this is enforced because of the belief that the dead are needed in the afterlife.

I like it as an explanation for why "animate dead" is "evil." Though it would presumably be bad for the evil side of things, too.

[patchyman]

So a fighter who is true neutral... I might see doing that. A cleric though - should they respect the idea that ALL the gods share - that the battle continues in the after life and these swords should be given to their loved ones to be buried with? Or should religion not play a part for the cleric (and thus sort of disrespecting even your own goddess who would want YOU buried with your weapon) by disregarding that notion and selling it for gold?

This is precisely why many people hate alignment. Players focus on “which action corresponds to a true neutral alignment?” instead of “what would my character do?”.

[Tawmis]

Perhaps, then, if the goddess would wish the cleric to behave other than how the cleric('s player) wishes to, the goddess should offer a carrot along with the stick. She requires those weapons in the hands of the dead for her war to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls; perhaps, then, she can afford a Boon or Charm (or plural thereof, up to one for each PC) to bless the party with that is worth approximately what the swords would've sold for.

Or, how does the party feel about indentured servitude? Perhaps one or more family members of the fallen will offer their service as camp followers, squires, attendants, or what-have-you in return for the swords. Heck, a sly one of them might see how the PCs live and think it's better than the life they have ahead of them with this devastation.


I would have allowed either of these... but didn't want to railroad... so what happened is the party out voted him (in my above situation), and returned the swords. And they were invited to the funerals (especially as two of the four in the party are clerics). Those that agreed to turn over the swords got inspiration - the other cleric did not (and try to get pushy with the NPC Smith) who then kicked him out of his store. (So there was some fun RP that came out of it)



I like it as an explanation for why "animate dead" is "evil." Though it would presumably be bad for the evil side of things, too.

Yes, even the evil gods want the dead to remain... but Wizards who dabble into Necromancy don't care what an evil (or good) god/goddess wants. :) Also the demons and devils don't care about the gods (and would love to take them down). So having mortals raise the dead and rip the souls from the afterlife (even skeletons) pleases the demons and devils, because they know it takes away from the soldiers of the deities.


This is precisely why many people hate alignment. Players focus on “which action corresponds to a true neutral alignment?” instead of “what would my character do?”.

Exactly. I wish if there was no alignment - a guidance that would sort of give a guideline as to how a character acts. (Like I said, so that way one morning a fighter saves a town from goblins, then the next morning slaughters the town and takes their coin, then the next week donates the coin to a church of the goddess of life, then goes out and murders farm animals because it's fun, then... Well, you get the idea).

I think alignment can be tossed out if you have people who actually roleplay their characters. Sometimes people play for the hack and slash (getting together, rolling dice, and the fun is different for them, than the person who enjoys actually developing their character). There's no problem with either playing style - unless you have both in the same session. It can be chaotic.