What to do when a Warlock wants to break their pact?

[Wasp]

Hi everyone!

The idea that a PC who has entered into a pact with an otherworldly patron starts to feel the goals of their patron clash with their changing beliefs (for example due to being part of a party and becoming friends with the other members) and wants to break this pact seems to be like a very possible and interesting development story-wise. But how should or could this be treated mechanics-wise? I feel a character shouldn't be punished for pursuing such a "classical" character redemption arc - but 5e doesn't really seem prepared for such a drastic change (probably similar to what to do if a paladin or cleric loses their faith).

Do you have experiences with or suggestions for a situation like this?

Thanks

Wasp

[Lunali]

Mechanically a warlock's pact has been fulfilled and the knowledge has been gained, nothing can change that. If the PC has some sort of contract that was required to make the pact, breaking it will be dependent on the terms of the contract.

[Sigreid]

Depends. If the pact still has requirements in it the cost for breaking it should be in the contract. If the warlock's obligation has been fulfilled, the pact can't be broken as it's over from their end.

If the pact has been fulfilled the consequences would depend on the patron. Some patrons would likely just be sad and disappointed and act much like a disapproving but loving parent of an adult child. Some may take it as a personal slight and endeavor to make the warlock's life a literal living hell. Some may have already had their attention called to someone else and not care. Some may not care because by creating the warlock they already set in motion a plan that the warlock is tied up in and can't get out of. etc.

[zockeros]

Don't have any experience with it besides some stories.
Like the current develoment of Fjord in critical role.

Especially more evil or selfish entities won't be happy about the change of the player. They will try to either take away the powers or force the player back into submission. Pure RAW-interpretation the powers are there to stay but having no consequences would be very implausible. The easiest and usualy most immersive solution is always have another power step in as part of the redemption arc. Just keeping the powers against the will of the original patron is always possibe but they would probably look for ways to make the player pay for it (like Bounty Hunters or branding the player as the "Betrayer" in the patrons realm of influence).
Like MCU-Marvels/Dr Strange's Sorceress Supreme used the power of her enemy Dormammu against his will.

[Laserlight]

Some patron may not even be aware of the warlock. It's really a DM call. It also depends on what they want to do going forward. Multiclass into something else? Change to another patron?

[Millstone85]

The warlock is an arcane spellcaster, meaning their access to the Weave is direct rather than mediated (PHB p205). Thus, I would rule out the option of taking away the warlock's powers.

On the other hand, I support the idea of the character being unable to gain additional warlock levels. They would have to multiclass.

Alternatively, I would bring your attention to MToF's deathlock. It is a canon example of extreme retaliation from a patron. The warlock is raised as an undead thrall. They retain their intelligence and powers, but now their only desire is to serve.

You could have the character fight a deathlock sent to transform them. Or the character could feel a curse taking hold of them, and have to look for a cure.

[darknite]

You can work this in multiple ways.

IMHO the best way would be to have the player use the conditions of their agreement to gain their freedom. This should be VERY hard and require quests for forbidden knowledge, conflicts with agents of their patron, suspension of abilities gained from their patron (temporarily), etc. The climax would be some sort of confrontation where the PC establishes their independence while maintaining the powers granted to them under the pact by some sort of machination they have arranged.

The worst way would be to have them just easily weasel out of their obligation with no consequences.

[tieren]

Fiend:

To break from service to the fiend I would launch a classic skill challenge (preferably fiddle playing), win your freedom or become obligated to a certain additional term of service (or doing some particularly fiendish act, etc...).

Fey:

You incur the disappointment of your archfey patron. At first a number of messengers (beasts, then maybe pixies and things) arrive to try to counsel you onto the right path (preferably a talking cricket). Eventually some avatar of the archfey appears to battle you to test if you have grown sufficiently to be "let off the leash".

GOO:

Your connection to the otherwordly entity of incomprehensible motive and power breaks, the recoil of which marks you visibly (strangely shaped burn, scar or tattoo appears [aberrant dragonmark style]). You are perpetually recognized as an agent of the One and spies and operatives in various locales reveeal themselves and seek your guidance and instruction seemingly ever frustrating your attempts to get out of their schemes. Eventually a higher up agent grows jealous of your notoriety and seeks to end you.

[Bloodcloud]

A few thought:
-Getting out of the current contract is impossible, BUT he could convince his patron to "sell" hios contract to a new patron OR convince a new patron to "buy" his contract.

-Lifting off the contract allows him to to change class to someting appropriate, perhaps Lore Bard for a tome lock or Paladin/fighter for a bladelock

A infernal to celestial transition would sure be a cool theme. I kinda assume he is infernal given your mention of morality,

[Chronos]

It would depend both on the terms of the pact and on how the power works. Some pacts might be "serve me for life". Others might be "do this one thing for me", and that one thing might have already happened, or it might be something that will happen in the future (like the patron getting the warlock's soul when they die). In some cases, it might not be physically possible to break the pact, or it might only be possible to break it by somehow defeating the patron. Some patrons explicitly don't even know of the existence of their warlocks: This might mean that the pact was negotiated by some underling of the patron, or it might mean that the patron just radiates power like we radiate body heat, and the warlock has somehow learned to tap into that.

And then you've got the nature of the power granted. Depending on how you rule that warlocks work, the patron may or may not be able to turn off the power directly. If they can't, and the pact is something that can be broken, then there might be other penalties specified for breaking the pact. Maybe the patron can sue you in the infernal courts. Maybe the patron will get angry and send other minions to kill you (which you might or might not be able to fight off). Maybe they'll just send you reminders every year and not do anything more, like with that friend who owes you money that you've mostly given up on ever getting back.

Which option should you (and your player) go with? Whichever one makes for the better story and game.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Talk to the player about where they see their character going from this point forward. If they break their pact, they probably shouldn't take any more Warlock levels using their former Patron, but nor should they lose those abilities. But what if they switch Patrons altogether? Find out if there's another Patron they'd like better. Maybe it's time to overhaul the character. If they succeed in finding a new Patron who will accept them (not easy, the new Patron won't want to deal with an oath-breaker) then let them swap their old Warlock levels for new ones using the new Patron abilities, spell list, etc.

Or maybe the player just wants to multi class into something else entirely.

[Segev]

Unless you and the player want to change the rules of the game, the two possible mechanical consequences are as follows:

1) Nothing happens. The Patron may or may not be angry about it, but the power has been granted and the Warlock has it, and may use it as he sees fit. He is going to keep leveling as a Warlock and gaining more powers because he knows the secrets necessary, or is just getting better with what he's already been given, or has the ability to wrest the power he wants from his patron with what he already has.

2) The Warlock ceases to level as a Warlock and multiclasses into something else. The Patron refuses to give him more power, now that the pact is broken, but can't take away what is already there.

By the rules, the Patron gave him his powers, but can't take them away. Now, if you want to explore alternatives, that's absolutely in your rights, but you're making new mechanics up at this point. I'm sure we're happy to help come up with ideas, if you wish.

It's also worth noting that the rules specify nothing about the direction your campaign may or may not take. The Patron being upset and sending other servants after the wayward Warlock is quite possible, and is not a mechanics decision, but an RP one.

[suplee215]

I haven't come up to this yet but I'll treat it like the silver surfer. Galactus doesnt takes away his power when he is no longer his herald but also doesnt empower him as much. They fight from time to time

[LibraryOgre]

Basically, 5e doesn't go into enough detail about the nature of the pact to have rules about it. Did you sell your firstborn child? Did you sell your soul? Did you agree to commit an act, which has been completed in the past?

Until you know what your pact is, you can't break it. And if you DO break it, the DM doesn't have any explicit guidelines for it, but I would suggest a warlock hitman.

[alchahest]

for the most part we've treated the pacts as transactional rather than employee/prisoner-with-a-job. The pact should be an RP injection, not a lever to punish a player.

[Spiritchaser]

I would always leave the details of the pact in the creative hands of the player, though I’d reserve veto power for things that just weren’t appropriate for the campaign.

As such, the nature of the conflict comes down to the nature of that arrangement.

What are the details in this case?

[Evaar]

Maybe the warlock makes a different pact with a rival of the first patron and whose beliefs are a little closer to the warlock's. Or maybe the new pact is just Godfather-style "Okay, I'll get you out of the pact you're in, and then maybe someday I need a favor."

Glasya offers exactly this to a lot of mortals - she gets them out of one infernal contract and into another one. Surely with a little creativity you can come up with a fey or old one who does the same.

That's all assuming the character wants to continue gaining levels as a warlock but just doesn't like their patron anymore.

[KorvinStarmast]

Talk to the player about where they see their character going from this point forward. If they break their pact, they probably shouldn't take any more Warlock levels using their former Patron, but nor should they lose those abilities. But what if they switch Patrons altogether? Find out if there's another Patron they'd like better. Maybe it's time to overhaul the character. If they succeed in finding a new Patron who will accept them (not easy, the new Patron won't want to deal with an oath-breaker) then let them swap their old Warlock levels for new ones using the new Patron abilities, spell list, etc. *golf clap* What a sensible approach.

for the most part we've treated the pacts as transactional rather than employee/prisoner-with-a-job. The pact should be an RP injection, not a lever to punish a player. I like this too.

But I also like to add in a little future "oh, crap, the patron held a grudge" as a trigger for a further adventure or challenge.

[Sparky McDibben]

IMHO the best way would be to have the player use the conditions of their agreement to gain their freedom. This should be VERY hard and require quests for forbidden knowledge, conflicts with agents of their patron, suspension of abilities gained from their patron (temporarily), etc. The climax would be some sort of confrontation where the PC establishes their independence while maintaining the powers granted to them under the pact by some sort of machination they have arranged.

I gave him an impossible task...

[sithlordnergal]

I'd go one of three routes:

1) The Patron doesn't do anything because the Patron is either unaware of the Warlock, doesn't care about the Warlock, or feels the Warlock completed their end of the contract. Either way the Warlock keeps their Warlock levels and powers, and may continue leveling as a warlock.

2) The Patron can't remove the Warlock's current powers, so the Warlock keeps their current abilities but must multiclass.

3) My personal favorite option. The Patron removes all of the Warlock's current abilities and powers. The Warlock loses all of their current Warlock abilities and spells, but in exchange they gain Sorcerer levels instead thanks to having been a Warlock. I'd probably have them be a Wild Magic Sorcerer due to the trauma of suddenly having their magic ripped away from them

[Anymage]

Changing patrons during downtime sounds like a reasonable rebuild. On that note, if you do want to implement falling mechanics for characters who do channel someone else's power, targeting subclass features is one way to implement that without going to the extremes of older edition paladin falling.

I'm a bigger fan of saying that the power is the warlock's to keep, although nothing stops a pissed off patron from trying to punish the warlock through other means. That's largely because I like the idea of a character empowered by evil turning those powers against evildoers, though.

[Zhorn]

It would mostly come down to how you run the patron's interactions with the PC, and how you define the effect/conditions of the pact.

For example; In my games:
The pact is a connection between the player and the patron. If the pact was no longer there, you could not gain more levels in warlock.
The powers granted from the warlock levels are a twisting/manipulation of the PC's being (essence/soul/body/whatever), and are considered permanent changes that cannot be undone unless the patron (or other higher being with access) does further manipulations.
While the pact is still present; the patron is able to block/unblock access to those powers and abilities as a motivation. This is not undoing the changes they have done, it is an additional change that is just acting as a switch. If the patron blocked those powers and THEN the pack was broken; the PC would have their warlock levels with the magic features 'turned off' until the get a higher being to reactivate them (essentially granting another patron access to their being to do the manipulations).
Breaking a pact is difficult and something not intuitively understood by the PC. The forming of the pact is allowing the patron access, but breaking it would feel like some impossible metaphor (like making sand dry while submersed in water). If the pact was to be broken, chances are the patron either allowed it to happen, or another patron stepped in and broke it for you (possibly forming their own pact in the process).

[Hypersmith]

Yeah, I'm my opinion it's about defining the terms of the pact - however loose they may be - and deciding how the source of power will continue for the warlock character. Will they have to multiclass, or can they counting on the power already unlocked to let them continue learning more? These are both appropriate OOC discussions.

IC, once the patron/pact is defined, the rest is all about an appropriate arc. What will the patron do, if they do anything? What are the repercussions, in terms of potential power loss or vengeance, or even just others seeking to take advantage of someone with a connecting to the patron but not their favor.

In terms of the mechanics of the pact, I'd say it's up to you and the player to have a discussion and decide, which might be part of the reason it's left undefined by default - allows for some flexibility. Perhaps a new patron comes into play to allow them to continue being a warlock, perhaps you define the knowledge the patron granted as a continuing thing unable to be withdrawn now, etc etc.

Summary:

Breaking a pact involves conflict of some kind
Discuss OOC what the appropriate mechanical repercussions/changes are, if any, to ensure no hard feelings. Don't define a path, but appropriately discuss potential ways this goes.
Start planning a hopefully fun redemption arc!

[Solunaris]

As has been discussed here, it really depends on how the pact was formed. The PH doesn't explicitly go into detail on the nature of Pacts and leaves it mostly up to Player and DM interpretation. So you'll have to talk with the player and figure out what sort of pact was formed. There are three major schools of thought on the matter, so I'll quickly list and detail them for you.

A Seed of Power: in this sort of pact the Patron and the Warlock exchange a payment or a promise for a seed of power being planted in the Warlock. This could be arcane knowledge of dark arts, a sliver of the Patron's power or even a literal physical object that allows the Warlock to gain magical power. In all of these instances only the initial activation is the result of the Patron and breaking the pact will have no mechanical impact on the current powers of the Warlock or the progression of the Warlock further into the class.

A Gift of Power: this pact is a bit different but the exchange is fundamentally the same. The Patron gives the Warlock magical abilities in exchange for something of value to the Patron with the notable difference that the Warlock is not aware of how to foster this power themselves. It is directly granted to the Warlock by the Patron but is very permanent. In this case breaking the pact won't remove any of the Warlock's granted powers but will keep them from gaining any more levels as a Warlock until they either find a new Patron to grant them power or make amends with their previous Patron.

A Borrowed Power: Of the three options here this is possibly the most fun to RP and the most detrimental to the player mechanically. Here instead of gifting a way for the Warlock to gain power themselves or the power directly instead the Patron lends them it's own power like a deity grants a Cleric their spells. Breaking the pact here would not only limit the Warlock from gaining any more levels as a Warlock but would also lock them out of any magical powers gained as a result of the Warlock class.

Now, obviously there are other pacts that don't directly involve the Patron granting a boon or even the character asking for one but when it is a contract between a character and Patron it is always one of these three. If I were in your situation first I'd determine the specific nature of the pact and what is expected of the Character in exchange for the pact. Once I have that, I'd talk with the player about the mechanical effects breaking the pact would have on their character and RP options to work past the mechanical problems in game.

If it is the Seed of Power then no mechanical problems will arise from breaking the pact but as a DM I'd warn the player they are going back on a promise to something that will seek revenge in most cases.

In the case of a Gift of Power there is a mechanical downside; the player won't be able to continue leveling as a Warlock unless they seek out another Patron. In this case I'd suggest multiclassing to step away from the reliance on their Patron continually gifting them power but still warn them about the consequences of breaking a promise to their Patron (unless the pact was transnational allowing the Warlock to stop "buying" power at any time). I might even offer the same suggestion I'll give for the last type of Pact.

Finally, if it is a Borrowed Power then the character will be significantly depowered after breaking the pact. Probably to the point of uselessness until they can find a way to either regain their Warlock powers by contracting with a different Patron (possibly changing their Pact or Patron type). In that instance I'd force them to reselect any Patron specific spells on their spell list and allow them to change their Invocations as they wished. Another solution is to seek absolution from a higher power and trade out the Warlock levels for another appropriate class (although preferably they'd just get a Celestial Patron). If it were up to me, this change would be limited to only being able to trade the levels for another full caster and only one that the higher power could reasonably power themselves excluding Wizard. If they sought out a deity for aid the deity might reward them by granting them Cleric levels to replace the Warlock levels or maybe Bard or Sorcerer levels if the deity has the Arcane domain in it's portfolio while a Druidic Circle might be able to purge the taint of the Patron by infusing the Warlock with the power of nature and change them into a Druid. In any case, this would require a complete rebuilding of the character from the ground up; reelecting spells and ASIs or feats at every level. Essentially you'd be rebuilding everything about the character except for the base stats assigned at the start of the game.

In short, you just gotta talk with the player.

[Wasp]

Thank you all for the feedback! It was very insightful and inspiring. In the end it seems to boil down to (as most of the time)



you just gotta talk with the player.

and see what they think and then find a fun and interesting solution together.

It's also important to separate the mechanics and the roleplaying aspects for the discussion (what is the rules effect and what are the story effects) BUT realize those two will influence each other.

Personally, I think it would feel more "consequential" if such a decision lead to a need to at least multiclass out of warlock. And from a story perspective I also like the idea of finding some other "patron" or protector.

I would like to ask though what your thoughts are on the most extreme handling, the "makeover" where you would rebuild the character using a different warlock pact or even a different class like the sorcerer. Do you think a character would still "feel" like the same character though? Based on my experience with recreating characters in different rules/editions there may be a danger the mechanical differences would be too much....

[ad_hoc]

The heart of the problem is that characters who do this in fiction are the protagonists of their stories.

D&D is an ensemble game.

There shouldn't be a spotlight on one character which is what would happen if the 'redemption arc' is given its due.

So, handle it off screen during downtime. I would advise that it is outside the scope of the game to change a central aspect of the character. The classes are meant to be archetypes that the characters carry with them from apprentice to mighty hero. It's also easy enough to have a do over either through class change or patron change if that is how you want to go.

[Solunaris]

I would like to ask though what your thoughts are on the most extreme handling, the "makeover" where you would rebuild the character using a different warlock pact or even a different class like the sorcerer. Do you think a character would still "feel" like the same character though? Based on my experience with recreating characters in different rules/editions there may be a danger the mechanical differences would be too much....

Well, no they won't mechanically feel like the same character at all. But if the player and group are really into the RP side of things then the character will probably feel most like the character at the moment of the rebuild than any other time. They won't play the same but they'll still fill the same role in the party as a full caster (Warlocks are full casters, bite me) and if the player is good they'll role play the PC being awkward with their new abilities. I should note that things like Skills and Proficiencies shouldn't change either with the exception of Save Proficiencies.

As for changing the Patron or the Pact well... That won't have as pronounced an effect on the Warlock as one might think. If you change out the Patron type (say Fiend to Fey) what all are you changing? A few spells the Warlock might not have even taken and a minor ability that is themed to the Patron. It really isn't all that much when you break it down. The Pact is where you might see the biggest change, but you have to remember that the Pact abilities are specifically called a "Boon" which is a gift given to the Warlock directly by the Patron (or born out of the power handed to them depending on the origin of the powers). Changing this will mean they have to change out any Pact specific Invocations and they'll lose access to a major ability that defined part of their character but the core casting will remain the same.

In short, if the Players is into the RP yes; if not, no to the complete rebuild and mostly yes to the minor rebuild.

[KyleG]

When that day comes for my character I will discuss with my dm the prospect of binding the patrons powers to MY will either thru share power of the level or via an item, Allowing me to complete my levels without the threat of Punishment. Then again the party and I are still undecided whether the patron is actually of ill intent or whether our goals align. Time will tell.

[Chronos]

Y'know, I can envision a celestial that offers very cheap and easy-to-fulfill warlock pacts, purely as a means of removing the temptation for would-be warlocks to make pacts with fiends.

[KorvinStarmast]

What to do when a Warlock wants to break their pact?

Alternative response: pull a Nancy Reagan move and Just Say No. See how your player reacts. :smallbiggrin:

Offer them four six sided dice, and the rules page on how to roll up a new character. Grab a beer, sit back, and enjoy. Tell the others to go out for pizza.

If the player asks what happened to their PC, quote from beyond Thunderdome:

Bust a deal, face the wheel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLjwEodCmT4).
If a GOO, tell them "The Great Old one Has repossessed your soul."
If FeyLock: "read the legend of Tam Lin. the Fairie Queen has summoned you home."
If a Fiend lock: "Feel the burn."
If a blade lock: "now you know why Elric took all of those drugs."
if a Celestial lock: Play Eric clapton's song "Tears in Heaven."

Power comes with a price. :smallcool:

[Hypersmith]

What to do when a Warlock wants to break their pact?

Alternative response: pull a Nancy Reagan move and Just Say No. See how your player reacts. :smallbiggrin:

Offer them four six sided dice, and the rules page on how to roll up a new character. Grab a beer, sit back, and enjoy. Tell the others to go out for pizza.

If the player asks what happened to their PC, quote from beyond Thunderdome:

Bust a deal, face the wheel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLjwEodCmT4).
If a GOO, tell them "The Great Old one Has repossessed your soul."
If FeyLock: "read the legend of Tam Lin. the Fairie Queen has summoned you home."
If a Fiend lock: "Feel the burn."
If a blade lock: "now you know why Elric took all of those drugs."
if a Celestial lock: Play Eric clapton's song "Tears in Heaven."

Power comes with a price. :smallcool:

That's an option, sure. Feels kinda mean to me unless DM and player are in agreement of it being appropriate/matches the feel of the table. But hey, your table, your rules.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's an option, sure. Feels kinda mean to me unless DM and player are in agreement of it being appropriate/matches the feel of the table. But hey, your table, your rules. Yeah, that option depends on your table and your relationship with your players.

But it's an option. When we look at the "you made a deal with an otherworldly being" who grants us amazing magical powers, that being is by default powerful.

Defying such a powerful being (particularly a fiend, they can be sooooo clingy) may come with a huge price, or, per the other options, the being may view this puny mortal with disdain and just not care.

"What, you quit? Whatever. You're not all that and a bag of chips. There's a hundred more where you came from ... hey, look, I just unfriended you on Pactbook. Enjoy your life as a loser. Bye."

Up to the DM to RP that kind of thing.

[Hypersmith]

Yeah, that option depends on your table and your relationship with your players.

But it's an option. When we look at the "you made a deal with an otherworldly being" who grants us amazing magical powers, that being is by default powerful.

Defying such a powerful being (particularly a fiend, they can be sooooo clingy) may come with a huge price, or, per the other options, the being may view this puny mortal with disdain and just not care.

"What, you quit? Whatever. You're not all that and a bag of chips. There's a hundred more where you came from ..."

Up to the DM to RP that kind of thing.

That's true, it is a viable option to consider.

[LibraryOgre]

Convert them to an Oathbreaker Paladin?

[KorvinStarmast]

Convert them to an Oathbreaker Paladin? While that's a neat bit of out of the box thinking, as I read the DMG on the Oathbreaker, they have to have been a Paladin in the first place, and have to have taken one of the oaths (at 3rd level) to even have an oath to break. The power granted by the oath and by the pact are (as I scan it) in the 'similalr but different' category of things that differentiate classes.

I still like the lateral thinking/approach there.