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Bobthewizard
2019-07-12, 08:18 AM
Two-Thirds Caster Rules

Someone had a post on this earlier. For a game I’m DM’ing, I’d like to allow the players to better incorporate blending half and third casters with their most appropriate full caster to allow a bigger range of gishes.

Paladin/Cleric
Ranger/Druid
EK/Wizard
or AT/Wizard

For these class combinations, when you multiclass, you would get the spell casting ability as if you were the full caster at the level of the multi classed spell slot table.

Instead of doubling up on 1st level spells known, you would be able to advance the level of your spells known. For Paladins, this would change the spellcasting stat to Wisdom, which I think they should do anyway. Paladins having synergy with Clerics makes more sense to me than the current synergy with Warlocks, Bards, and Sorcerers. Although I would still allow a player to use current rules if they preferred.

So if you were a 6th level paladin and 4th level Cleric. You would have spells known as if you were a 7th level Cleric, including access to 4th level spells. Access to Paladin and Ranger spells would still be based on just levels in those classes, but would not change number of spells known from the above rule. All subclass spells would also be based on individual class level.

Multiclassing out of the full spellcaster would still slow down your spell progression but you wouldn’t have to go through the lower level spells twice. Other class abilities would still progress based on class level.

Obviously this makes these multi classes more powerful than they currently are but I don’t think it makes them more powerful than just staying full caster.

What are your thoughts?

SheVa
2019-07-12, 08:26 AM
I think this would push several classic multiclass builds that are already very potent (Sorcadin, Sorlock) totally over the top. From an optimization view-point, nobody should ever consider not multiclassing, under this rule set.

I'm not going into details here, but I'm sure there are builds that could abuse the **** out of this system...

Also: how would this affect a multiclass between two full casters? How would you justify not applying the same rules for spell progression?

Bobthewizard
2019-07-12, 08:31 AM
I think this would push several classic multiclass builds that are already very potent (Sorcadin, Sorlock) totally over the top. From an optimization view-point, nobody should ever consider not multiclassing, under this rule set.

I'm not going into details here, but I'm sure there are builds where you could abuse the **** out of this system...

I wouldn't allow this for Sorcadin or Sorlocks. They don't need the help. It would only apply to the combinations above. I mostly want to do this for Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters where they use the exact same spell list as wizards (with some limitations), but I think it work for Paladin/Clerics and Ranger/Druids too.

It doesn't apply to full-caster multi classes because they use totally different spell lists. Combining this with another full caster would mean the combo class above would be one class and the other full caster would be separate. So Paladin 6 Cleric 4 Sorcerer 2, would be a 7th level Cleric (with access to 2nd level Paladin spells) and 2nd level Sorcerer using the 9th level multi classing table for spell slots.

TyGuy
2019-07-12, 08:49 AM
I like it. I like that it makes your gishes actually have a use for those higher MC spell slots. I like how you restricted it to prevent munchkin building and keep it theme appropriate.

SheVa
2019-07-12, 08:51 AM
Okay, I misunderstood the rule system a bit, then - sorry, andd thank you for clarifying!

I can say this for it: as a player, I'd certainly give it a go - in fact, I would probably jump at it (for the novelty alone).

I still think it is much too powerful of a buff. If you like, I can try to come up with ways to abuse this, should I find the time. I'm almost certain there are builds that would be significantly ahead of other builds currently possible when using your system. Your players would probably discover those ^^ I would suggest you make the most powerful build you can come up with, maybe pose this as a challenge to an optimization forum - if you are happy withe the outcome, keep the system.

My other big concern is that this is a very specific ruling that seems to cherry-pick where it is applied a bit too much. I find it too complicated and unintuitive, personally, to introduce such specific rules.

Bobthewizard
2019-07-12, 09:35 AM
Okay, I misunderstood the rule system a bit, then - sorry, andd thank you for clarifying!

I can say this for it: as a player, I'd certainly give it a go - in fact, I would probably jump at it (for the novelty alone).

I still think it is much too powerful of a buff. If you like, I can try to come up with ways to abuse this, should I find the time. I'm almost certain there are builds that would be significantly ahead of other builds currently possible when using your system. Your players would probably discover those ^^ I would suggest you make the most powerful build you can come up with, maybe pose this as a challenge to an optimization forum - if you are happy withe the outcome, keep the system.

My other big concern is that this is a very specific ruling that seems to cherry-pick where it is applied a bit too much. I find it too complicated and unintuitive, personally, to introduce such specific rules.

I'd love hear what you can come up with to break the game with this. I'm fairly confident it will work for EK or AT with any Wizard subclass and still not be as powerful as a straight EK or Wizard. There may be some subclass combinations for Paladin/Cleric or Ranger/Druid that throw it off.