Holy Carp I Finally Did It

[unseenmage]

For a lotta years I knew how to incorporate skill boosts and even feats into Constructs using the Constructs Are Magic Items rules interpretation.

Now I've hit on a cheesey way to finally build class levels into them.

If one makes an Ice Assassin or Simulacrum of a Construct one is undoubtedly its creator. It is created.

Using the Combining Magic Items rules and the Constructs Are Magic Items rules interpretation we could theoretically incorporate an Ice Assassin or Simulacrum of any Construct into another Construct we are modifying.

Just like combining a sword and a necklace wont suddenly let the sword be jewelry or the necklace count as a weapon the resultant combined Constructs would only have the body of the modified Construct.

It would however have all the superpowers and traits of the added Construct.
Which would include class abilities.

This is so cool. And cheesey. But still cool!

[redking]

It doesn't work because simulacrum and ice assassins are not constructs. They are partially real illusions.

[MisterKaws]

It doesn't work because simulacrum and ice assassins are not constructs. They are partially real illusions.

Yeah, that. They retain the type of the base creature, with Ice Assassin adding the Cold subtype, I believe.

You can do it with Dustform creatures though.

[unseenmage]

Trust me. Simulacrum and Ice Assassin have creature types. Otherwise, how do we know what high fie type to give them?

Works with Minor Servitor and Animated Objects and the 3.0 LA from Dragon Mag fof the Animated Objects at least.

[Mike Miller]

Trust me. Simulacrum and Ice Assassin have creature types. Otherwise, how do we know what high fie type to give them?

Works with Minor Servitor and Animated Objects and the 3.0 LA from Dragon Mag fof the Animated Objects at least.

What should the bolded part read?

[HouseRules]

What should the bolded part read?

Either a five or a fire is what I'm getting.

[unseenmage]

Sorry am on mobile.

Should read hit die aka HD.

[Venger]

simulacra and ice assassins are not constructs. they are whatever type their base creature is.

constructs are not magic items. they are creatures.

[unseenmage]

simulacra and ice assassins are not constructs. they are whatever type their base creature is.

yes. I know. is why I said "of a Construct "




constructs are not magic items. they are creatures.
Our table disagrees.

For my part I describe it as a rules interpretation to make it clear not every table plays it one way or another.

[Psyren]

Golems are magic items - not all constructs.

I'm a bit too lactose intolerant to address the rest.

[Venger]

They are? I thought since they were creatures, that superseded them being items. So you could have a +1 keen iron golem or whatever? Awesome. Are there rules for this anywhere? Are other similar creatures, like boguns or homunculi?

[Psyren]

They are? I thought since they were creatures, that superseded them being items. So you could have a +1 keen iron golem or whatever? Awesome. Are there rules for this anywhere? Are other similar creatures, like boguns or homunculi?

It's a result of this funky line:


The characteristics of a golem that come from its nature as a magic item (caster level, prerequisite feats and spells, market price, cost to create) are given in summary form at the end of each golem’s description.

And no, they aren't magic weapons (in the definition sense), so keen etc are out.

[Venger]

It's a result of this funky line:



And no, they aren't magic weapons (in the definition sense), so keen etc are out.

Interesting. So they can just be combined as normal like a periapt of wisdom or whatever, but not afforded armor/weapon properties.

[Kyutaru]

Building a +5 Adamantine Golem of Hardness.

[MisterKaws]

Interesting. So they can just be combined as normal like a periapt of wisdom or whatever, but not afforded armor/weapon properties.

Yes, so technically Immovable Golems are a thing.

[Endarire]

Now I'm curious if we can make a very small Golem to function as Boots of Speed.

[Venger]

Now I'm curious if we can make a very small Golem to function as Boots of Speed.

Boot of speed.

[Mike Miller]

Boot of speed.

That doesn't sound cost effective!

[Venger]

That doesn't sound cost effective!

if one golem can function as an item, and boots of speed are an item, it'd confer the same effect. it's just one big boot you put both feet in and hop.

[Mike Miller]

if one golem can function as an item, and boots of speed are an item, it'd confer the same effect. it's just one big boot you put both feet in and hop.

Now you're talking! I must have this be equipped by an NPC!

[unseenmage]

Other Constructs are implied to be magic items because Craft Construct is an item creation feat.

And a WotC article that says they are is often used as evidence for the rules interpretation too.


I enjoy fiddling with it. It amuses me.

Single use Constructs are one if the few iterations I havnt done yet. Probabky because Astral Constructs are already a thing.

[Crake]

It's worth noting, in the discussion of "Magic items can/cannot be creatures", that intelligent magic items are simultaneously considered creatures and magic items rather explicitly, so there's definitely a precedence.


Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs.

[Seerow]

While I'm not going to comment on the main issue because I'm not well versed enough in ice assassin shenanigans, I do want to say I love the idea of being able to enchant golems as other items.

I now plan to have a wizard with a golem bodyguard who also acts as a surprise runestaff

[unseenmage]

It's worth noting, in the discussion of "Magic items can/cannot be creatures", that intelligent magic items are simultaneously considered creatures and magic items rather explicitly, so there's definitely a precedence.

Figurines of Wondrous Power also blur this presumed line between the two as well.

Which of course gets worse when combined with Int Magic Item rules.

[Kyutaru]

What do you get when you combine golems with a ring of invisibility?

Sucker punched.

[Crake]

Figurines of Wondrous Power also blur this presumed line between the two as well.

Which of course gets worse when combined with Int Magic Item rules.

Figurines of wondrous power seem more like polymorph any object-ing a creature into existence, the item itself isn't a creature, but rather it can transform into one. It's only temporary, and nothing about the item indicates that the creature retains any memories or sentience derived from it's previous activation.

I'm still not sure how you can derive "combine an ice assassin of a construct into another construct" as part of any equation. Combining magical effects and ice assassins seem so far removed from one another, I don't see how they're related at all. Like, I can understand the notion of folding multiple construct abilities into one construct (though it would equate to a custom magic item, and those rules would be heavily DM reliant, so not really something you can definitively say is usable at any "standard" table), but I cannot for the life of me understand how you go from "I made this Ice assassin of a construct" to "now I can add class levels to my constructs".

Still, the easiest way to add class levels to your constructs is to awaken them. Like, it's that simple. If you don't want to awaken them, then you go to your DM and say "I want to upload the capabilities of a rogue to my construct, how would I go about doing that".

Pathfinder has technological items that can download consciousnesses into them through a neural cam helmet thing, which you could use as a basis to begin with, then interface it with your construct, and "upload" the capabilities of the consciousness that you downloaded.

[unseenmage]

...

Pathfinder has technological items that can download consciousnesses into them through a neural cam helmet thing, which you could use as a basis to begin with, then interface it with your construct, and "upload" the capabilities of the consciousness that you downloaded.
Pathfinder has its Price By CR rules and the Simple Class Templates.
In PF its easy.

[ExLibrisMortis]

What do you get when you combine golems with a ring of invisibility?

Sucker punched.
Well, you'd get a golem that, when put on one's finger, renders one invisible. Which is the height of fashion in Sharn, as I understand it, but possibly frowned upon elsewhere.

(Depending on whether you add the ring to the golem or vice versa, it may slightly encumber one's hand, too.)

[Bohandas]

Trust me. Simulacrum and Ice Assassin have creature types. Otherwise, how do we know what high fie type to give them?

Sorry am on mobile.

Should read hit die aka HD.

The weird thing is that not only did autocomplete guess the wrong word but it also misspelled "hi-fi"


They are? I thought since they were creatures, that superseded them being items.

I don't know about golems, but I know that construct and magic item aren't necessarily mutually exclusive since intelligent items are both

[Psyren]

Other Constructs are implied to be magic items because Craft Construct is an item creation feat.

I mean, by that logic oozes and fleshwarped creatures are magic items too. I'd go with the specific vs. general reading here.

[DdarkED]

Figurines of wondrous power seem more like polymorph any object-ing a creature into existence, the item itself isn't a creature, but rather it can transform into one. It's only temporary, and nothing about the item indicates that the creature retains any memories or sentience derived from it's previous activation.



at least in one set of novels Drzzt (love him or hate him) has a figurine of wondrous power that summons an astral panther, and that panther does indeed retain its memories in between summons as while as of its life in the astral realm, which it resides in between summons. i would assume the novels arnt considered legit sources but figured id toss that out for thought

[ciopo]

I mean, by that logic oozes and fleshwarped creatures are magic items too. I'd go with the specific vs. general reading here.

What did you think magic potions were? :P

[redking]

Simulacrums of constructs are cheap and cheerful.

[Segev]

The Trompe L’oeile in Pathfinder is a construct that is a duplicate, down to class levels, of another creature.

[unseenmage]

The Trompe L’oeile in Pathfinder is a construct that is a duplicate, down to class levels, of another creature.

The Alter Ego too for what that's worth.

[Mato]

constructs are not magic items. they are creatures.
Our table disagrees.
Amusing anecdote, but not for the reasons you like.

Intelligent magic items are considered constructs, but constructs are not considered magical items. Every time you think otherwise you are affirming the consequent. And it also leads you down the path of cherry picking sources and thinking contradictions exist. For example, magical items cease being magical in antimagic areas but a construct continues to be a creature and can continue to function (without it's sq/sp abilities). So if you approach this subject from an incorrectly informed angle it seems like an oddity.