Spell Points variant rule for Sorcerers: Balanced? Yay or nay? [Archive]

TheUser

2019-07-13, 08:16 AM

My stance? I am firmly in the "no spell points variant" camp simply because I have played it at a table where other players were not given the option (as they were not sorcerers) and it's honestly frustrating for the players and DM alike to balance encounters around a spell point user. I also happen to think that Sorcerers are outrageously strong already, so giving them more kicks them into overdrive for me.

I'll admit that at first blush spell points, seem like a perfect solution for the struggling sorcerer as it 1) alleviates spells known in a sort of sideways manner; balancing the spells you have with given slots is entirely a non-issue. You can have 4 spells known that are level 5 spells by character level 10 and because you don't have to worry about throwing half of your spells known into something that normally has 2 spell slots (or a massive conversion tax) the character feels more fluid with more opportunity to slam out high level spells with less need to have a balanced array of spells at various levels and 2) liberates the use of lower level spells as well. 10 fireballs at level 9? No problem.

The careful planning of spell slot management is only bypassed by a normal sorcerer when they make the choice to convert pre-existing resources that when converted back, would tax the player twice and lower output even more. In other words, it's a one-way conversion that the Font of Magic system actively punishes going back on.
Which I guess is where the crux of my position lies; there is already a system in place to allow a form of flexibility but the designers of the game felt it necessary to throttle it.

Why is this so important and why is the pre-existing system inherently taxed?

The importance is more visible when we appreciate for a moment that the design team clearly already thought of spell points (what with them being in the DMG) and chose not to implement the system for the sorcerer as a baseline. Font of Magic is a carefully thought out analogous system with pretty clear differences that highlight it's own design goals. To better understand what those goals are we have to

Deconstruct the limitations that were baked into the pre-existing system.

Conversions are Entropic
Meaning energy is lost with each transfer, and is exacerbated whenever you start trying scramble things up too much. Flexibility, and the notion of many spells of a particular slot, carries the cost of lower overall output. Why did the design team do this?

The idea is that when you are making the choice to add new slots (or sorcery points) you are doing just that. Making a choice with consequences. The decision to throw out extra high level slots now feels like it was a calculated decision and not just done on a whim. Given the ability to trivialize an entire smaller scale encounter using a single 4th or 5th level spell (Wall of Fire, Synaptic Static and Animate Objects come to mind off the top of my head) why is it important to limit casters from doing this? Well it's two fold. The first is that it means you can change up the intensity of encounters without boring the players. Regular casters want an opportunity to use their lower level spells and if everything is always a Deadly Encounter then they aren't going to have the breathing room to do that; you have to front load difficult encounters with as much of your power potential as possible. Where as a spell point sorcerer who comes up against a less intense encounter will just smash it with one of their many high level spells and generally ruin any level of suspense in the less than deadly encounters.

Then when Deadly Encounters -do- present themselves the spell points caster can go all out much harder than any of the other casters making challenge both them and the rest of the team that much more difficult.

Normal casters have to ask themselves "Is this the right time to use that big thing I can only do twice a day?"
Font of Magic says "Is this the right time to use that thing at the expense of other casting power if I run out and need it again?"
Spell Points doesn't ask that question. You use whatever spell you want with no stress or the feel of consequence.

More over, the system actually works in reverse favoring spell points too!
Want to cast the Shield spell 15 times a day? Go for it.
Spell points is the pinnacle of flexibility but with no consequence and less meaningful decisions made by the player.

This liberating feeling, allows sorcerers to overshadow other casters tremendously and the significant power discrepancy will be apparent in the hands of an experienced player rather quickly.

Conversions cost Bonus Actions
So now that we see Font of Magic conversions have consequences to ones output, the notion of doing it only when necessary becomes far more prevalent. Doing it in combat, and exercising that flexibility not only weighs on the action economy but also takes time now.
Moving all your power into 5th level spells would require 13 rounds of bonus actions at level 10, so blasting out higher level spells with great frequency is intentionally gated with a time and action cost. Removing that preparation once again removes the idea of clever play (preparing what you think you'll need before time or during the cadence of combat) and makes it a simplistic binary with no strategic planning or thought.

The design goals are clear, flexibility comes at the cost of overall output and should be done gradually over time.

If you enjoy playing with spell points, by all means. But also understand that the designers of D&D clearly had this idea in their head and restricted the system already in place for sorcerers for what they thought would contribute to a healthier game. Do you think that those reasons are bad? Then by all means ignore them and do what you want. That's the fun of D&D. But I for one think that spell points turn sorcerers into the unequivocal kings of magic and see virtually no reason to play a wizard or a warlock with sorcerers having spell points.

EDITED for typos and formatting.

kebusmaximus

2019-07-13, 10:20 AM

I played a sorcerer (the original UA favored soul, death domain) with the spell point variant, from level three to fifteen or so. The rest of the party were all full casters; a moon druid, a life cleric, and divination wizard. Nobody else felt overshadowed by me, and in fact I still felt constrained by my spell choices. I admit, though, that I was able to cast a lot of spells. Then again, we may have had a bit of a problem with the five minute adventuring day.

All in all, I would be wary, but my experience was positive.

intregus

2019-07-13, 10:35 AM

I have a house rule like the one you suggest: Sorcerers use spell points and sorcery points are added to the pool.

In my experience it causes the opposite of Nova casting. Lower level spells are dirt cheap. My sorcerer player uses first and second level spells as if they were cantrips. Combined with metamagic this allows the sorcerer to have more of a sustained spellcasting style.

Needless to say, the player likes it a lot. The wizard is jealous by the way.

This is exactly what we do too and it works. It's the easiest fix to the sorcerer IMO and it changes up how they get played a ton!

bendking

2019-07-13, 10:42 AM

I actually think combining the Sorcery Points and Spell Points pull is a bit much, since it allows you to use more Metamagic than was probably intended.

Snippety snip

Thank you for your thoughts. Definitely good points to think on.

ImperiousLeader

2019-07-13, 10:51 AM

While I haven't tried playing the Sorcerer with spell points, I have played the Mystic. And I'd agree, the versatility of how to expend spell points vs spell slots is an improvement. But it's also more granular, a little harder to track. I'd probably allow it in my games.

Theodoxus

2019-07-13, 01:04 PM

I've run games with spell point sorcerers, and felt it didn't overly disrupt the game or combat scenarios. I agree that it has the potential of disrupting the table if the perception by other full caster class players is that the sorc is getting an undo advantage. But then, just stating "He knows 6 spells to your 15" tends to calm them down.

What I've been using since pretty much day 1 after I got the DMG and spell point system, is for warlocks, who see a LOT more bang for their buck. Instead of spending an automatically upcharged 3rd level slot at 5th level for a Shield spell, or Misty Step, they can now use points to expend only the exact amount of power they want to.

It really lets warlocks control their power expenditure; and given the small number of slots they convert, their short rest pool is still small - but not '2 slot' small.

I give all my players the option for spell points, regardless of class - but I mandate warlocks use them. There's usually a bit of resistance with new players at first, but when they grok the flexibility associated with the change, only those who absolutely hate resource tracking haven't accepted it.

Nagog

2019-07-13, 01:51 PM

So I've come across another thread for this system of trading spell slots for Sorcery Points, but just to confirm, you receive sorcery points equal to the total level of spells you know, plus the ordinary Sorcery Point gain (so having 2 first level spell slots and 1 second level spell would give you 4 Sorcery Points plus however many for what level you are), and to cast a spell you expend a number of Points equal to the level of spell you're casting. Is that correct?

If so, I'd say this is a wonderful system. It allows for much more versatile casting and would genuinely make me want to play a sorcerer.

ProsecutorGodot

2019-07-13, 01:58 PM

Nagog

2019-07-13, 02:13 PM

I'm going to say "no"

Spell points are fun, but my only experience with them has seen the caster spending them recklessly to cast their highest level spells more frequently. It wasn't uncommon for our party sorcerer to cast only 3rd-5th level spells through an entire session aside from Cantrips.

In a way, it does solve the Sorcerer's problem of spells known, but not in a way that I liked. The Sorcerer never wanted for more spells because Synaptic Static and Fireball were all he ever needed and he was almost never unable to use them effectively.

This problem becomes especially apparent if for some reason you have a spellcaster who wasn't given the opportunity to also use spell points. The party member using spell points will continue to sling high level magic throughout the day with only the smallest amount of forethought while the standard spell slot caster is constantly thinking about when it is most appropriate to use those limited 5th level slots.

I'd say that casting those high level spells frequently is a playstyle choice rather than an issue with the fix. The way I see it, this fix makes sorceres the opposite of Warlocks in terms of casting. Warlocks have very few spells slots, but those spell slots are high level and nearly all of their spells scale with that slot level. Inversely, they refresh on a short rest so they can earn them back with a bit of effort. Sorcerers, with this fix, can sling their leveled spells all the time, however once they run out they're done until the next day. This change also increases the viability of Metamagic, as instead of keeping track of both Points and Slots, this allows for both to come from the same resource, similar to a Mana pool. If you still feel it's overpowered, perhaps remove the points they gain per level (the sorcery Points a Sorcerer without this fix would be getting)

TheUser

2019-07-13, 03:04 PM

I'd say that casting those high level spells frequently is a playstyle choice rather than an issue with the fix. The way I see it, this fix makes sorceres the opposite of Warlocks in terms of casting. Warlocks have very few spells slots, but those spell slots are high level and nearly all of their spells scale with that slot level. Inversely, they refresh on a short rest so they can earn them back with a bit of effort. Sorcerers, with this fix, can sling their leveled spells all the time, however once they run out they're done until the next day. This change also increases the viability of Metamagic, as instead of keeping track of both Points and Slots, this allows for both to come from the same resource, similar to a Mana pool. If you still feel it's overpowered, perhaps remove the points they gain per level (the sorcery Points a Sorcerer without this fix would be getting)

This ignores the idea that 1 high level spell could be worth more than the same amount of points invested in low/mid level spells not only in value but also time usage efficiency.

1 synaptic static is like Bane + fireball (same spell point cost) but with 1 action cost (instead of 2) and a significantly higher margin of success due to being an int save. It also doesn't use concentration.

Normally this balanced by virtue of the fact that casters get a max of 2 level 5 spells until tier 4.

Even a normal sorcerer would have to use font of magic to make a bit of an inefficient trade to gain more high level slots and wizards need their short rest.

Spell points at level 9 can fire off 8 synaptic statics in one day (vs 6 with font of magic or 3 with a high level wizard).

That's the frontloaded casting power of a warlock of the same level taking 3 short rests...

Giving this level of flexibility and output is quite frankly staggering to even consider. If you want to do this the least you could do is offer it to all casters so they don't feel like they are getting the short end of the stick compared to the sorcerer. [have fun balancing encounters ;) ]

patchyman

2019-07-13, 03:09 PM

I used the spell points variant (sorcerer only, but an unusual build) for a mini-campaign and it worked well.

BUT I think you need to increase the cost of the Twin metamagic because it becomes a little too powerful under the Spell points system (Twinning spells becomes cheaper than casting them twice).

Another variant that I have been toying with is to add an addendum to Font of Magic which would allow sorcerers to redistribute their spell slots after a long rest. This has the best of both worlds: the sorcerer can get frictionless use of his limited spells known, but doesn’t overshadow the wizard. Meanwhile, he retains the Font of Magic ability to convert on the fly if he makes a mistake. Plus the ability synergizes well with the sorcerer fluff.

Nagog

2019-07-13, 03:40 PM

This ignores the idea that 1 high level spell could be worth more than the same amount of points invested in low/mid level spells not only in value but also time usage efficiency.

1 synaptic static is like Bane + fireball (same spell point cost) but with 1 action cost (instead of 2) and a significantly higher margin of success due to being an int save. It also doesn't use concentration.

Normally this balanced by virtue of the fact that casters get a max of 2 level 5 spells until tier 4.

Even a normal sorcerer would have to use font of magic to make a bit of an inefficient trade to gain more high level slots and wizards need their short rest.

Spell points at level 9 can fire off 8 synaptic statics in one day (vs 5 with font of magic or 3 with a high level wizard).

That's the frontloaded casting power of a warlock of the same level taking 3 short rests...

Giving this level of flexibility and output is quite frankly staggering to even consider. If you want to do this the least you could do is offer it to all casters so they don't feel like they are getting the short end of the stick compared to the sorcerer. [have fun balancing encounters ;) ]

I'd argue that this is the appeal for a Sorcerer. Like I said in my previous reply, if you feel it is a bit too heavy, limit the number of points given to just those gained from spell slots. that should help with Balancing.

Also, in comparing this to other casters, keep in mind that most other spellcasting classes have loads to gain from their subclasses, while Sorcerer subclasses are fairly lackluster, relying on the "powerful usability of Metamagic" to compensate, when in reality Metamagic has about the same utility and viability as a Wizard Subclass (which doesn't mean that Metamagic is weak, just that it's weak for a base class with weak subclasses, while Wizard subclasses allow for much more power than many other subclasses)

I used the spell points variant (sorcerer only, but an unusual build) for a mini-campaign and it worked well.

BUT I think you need to increase the cost of the Twin metamagic because it becomes a little too powerful under the Spell points system (Twinning spells becomes cheaper than casting them twice).

Another variant that I have been toying with is to add an addendum to Font of Magic which would allow sorcerers to redistribute their spell slots after a long rest. This has the best of both worlds: the sorcerer can get frictionless use of his limited spells known, but doesn’t overshadow the wizard. Meanwhile, he retains the Font of Magic ability to convert on the fly if he makes a mistake. Plus the ability synergizes well with the sorcerer fluff.

I'd adjust this to adding one or two points to the cost of twinning it, similar to the other Metamagic feats.

TheUser

2019-07-13, 03:54 PM

While Sorcerer subclasses are fairly lackluster, relying on the "powerful usability of Metamagic" to compensate, when in reality Metamagic has about the same utility and viability as a Wizard Subclass (which doesn't mean that Metamagic is weak, just that it's weak for a base class with weak subclasses, while Wizard subclasses allow for much more power than many other subclasses)

Disadvantage on all spell saves tied to a minisummon or +/-1d4 on rolls with a reaction or at will flight /at will bonus action teleports don't strike me as "weak" subclass abilities even in the slightest.

Maybe when propped up against the most powerful wizard subclass features like illusory reality, command undead or spell resistance but this is mitigated by the wizard base class not having anything remotely nearing metamagic.

As for your assertion that metamagic [isn't all that great] I invite you to re-examine the awesome potential of quicken, careful, empower and especially twin and subtle.

Subtle is a powerhouse that is virtually unparalleled (lvl 18 druid that's it), comes online super early and effects social, exploration and combat to an immense degree.

Nagog

2019-07-13, 04:08 PM

Disadvantage on all spell saves tied to a minisummon or +/-1d4 on rolls with a reaction or at will flight /at will bonus action teleports don't strike me as "weak" subclass abilities even in the slightest.

Maybe when propped up against the most powerful wizard subclass features like illusory reality, command undead or spell resistance but this is mitigated by the wizard base class not having anything remotely nearing metamagic.

As for your assertion that metamagic [isn't all that great] I invite you to re-examine the awesome potential of quicken, careful, empower and especially twin and subtle.

Subtle is a powerhouse that is virtually unparalleled (lvl 18 druid that's it), comes online super early and effects social, exploration and combat to an immense degree.

I have examined them, and even with them, Metamagic does not a base class make. As for the base class of a Wizard, Wizards have plenty going for them in the base class, most of them being in the way they cast their spells. A Larger spell list, arcane recovery, and spell list versatility being prime examples, with Ritual Casting and learning spells outside of level gain are also no laughing matter.

The issue here isn't that Metamagic isn't great (my opinion of it aside), it's that it's not enough to make Sorcerers a distinct and unique class. Changing the way they cast their spells to give them more flexibility and the ability to choose how many of a spell they cast rather than limited by spell slots gives them the versatility and boost they need to really stand out as a class.

TheUser

2019-07-13, 04:20 PM

The issue here isn't that Metamagic isn't great (my opinion of it aside), it's that it's not enough to make Sorcerers a distinct and unique class. Changing the way they cast their spells to give them more flexibility and the ability to choose how many of a spell they cast rather than limited by spell slots gives them the versatility and boost they need to really stand out as a class.

This hasn't really been substantiated with any type of analysis or break down.

It's literally all assertions with nothing backing it up. I'm curious as to -how- you came to this conclusion, but since it's largely an unsupported, baseless conclusion (EDIT: within the context of this thread, I am sure you have reasons :P) I have no way to either disagree with you or come to a common consensus.

If it's not too much trouble maybe you'd be more inclined to actually -discuss- your rationale?

Trickery

2019-07-13, 04:44 PM

I'm in favor of it, but I don't use the spell point system from the DMG. Mine is simpler while also making Sorcerer a unique caster and less appealing as a multiclass gimmick option. I also setup the system in such a way that the Sorcerer can't nova. It's in my signature.

Most of the arguments against spell points and similar seem to be: "but that would make the Sorcerer able to do things others can't and act with more flexibility than other casters. Other casters would be jealous."

Yes. That's the point. The Sorcerer should have features that other casters would like to have. Because wouldn't The Sorcerer player like to learn two spells every level plus picking up new ones from scrolls (Wizard), or be able to wear armor, change ALL of their spells known on a long rest for free, and turn into animals frequently (Druid)?

The problem is that, any time a class can cast spells differently from another caster, everyone yells foul. Spells are the strongest mechanic in the game because they were in 3.5e so they must be now, therefore whoever casts the most spells or casts spells the most freely is overpowered. Right?

Wrong.

I've been around the block on things like this a few times. When I allowed a coffeelock in one of my games, some of the other players were worried that it would be overpowered. It wasn't. And I didn't have particularly good players either - actually, the coffeelock was the most consistently good player among them, good meaning she made good choices and paid attention. But she didn't break anything.

You know who was more disruptive? The Paladin with the feat Lucky. Nothing bad could happen to him, and things died immediately whenever he got a crit. And that was just a Paladin using about half of his actual features. There's a reason why Paladins are consistently ranked as one of the strongest classes. Point being that the coffeelock, supposedly the most broken build, was easier to deal with by far than just a regular strong class. Even infinite spells don't matter in the face of action economy.

Flexibility has always been part of the Sorcerer's identity, but they don't have that flexibility anymore. Even if they convert all of their Sorcery points directly into spell slots, Wizards, with their Arcane Recovery, can cast at least as many spells per day assuming they don't cast a single ritual or get any mileage from their subclass. Realistically, the Wizard will cast far more spells due to their rituals alone, to say nothing of Wizards having more than twice as many spells known to choose from, and even being able to prepare more spells than the Sorcerer knows at all.

But it makes perfect thematic sense for the Sorcerer to have this flexibility. If they produce their own magic, if it's inside of them and under their control, why shouldn't they be able to shape that power exactly as they choose? That's what spell points allow them to do.

There are other problems with Sorcerer. They get no innate magic from their origins, and the origin features don't really affect spell choice very much - I addressed those issues as well. But spell points and similar address the core problem by making Sorcerers feel like Sorcerers again.

Nagog

2019-07-13, 05:03 PM

This hasn't really been substantiated with any type of analysis or break down.

It's literally all assertions with nothing backing it up. I'm curious as to -how- you came to this conclusion, but since it's largely an unsupported, baseless conclusion (EDIT: within the context of this thread, I am sure you have reasons :P) I have no way to either disagree with you or come to a common consensus.

If it's not too much trouble maybe you'd be more inclined to actually -discuss- your rationale?

Ok, breakdown:

Safe Spell: Not half bad, if you are a fan of AoE spells that only induce effects. However, with spells that are AoE and deal damage (Fireball and Lightning Bolt are prime examples), your allies are still taking half damage, so even with this they aren't going to be a fan of you nuking them. Comparatively, an Evocation Wizard's Sculpt Spells does the same thing, with saves for half damage instead dealing no damage to those you indicate as "safe". Also, this is a feature gained at level 2, and you do not need to expend any resource at all to use it beyond the initial spell slot.

Distant Spell: the Spell Sniper feat does this already, to every spell you have to roll an attack for, for free. Also you get a free cantrip from it from any class. the Touch spell to 30 ft range is decent for some spells that would be great except for the touch range, namely Vampiric Touch. But Vampiric Touch isn't available to Sorcerers, soooo....

Empowered Spell: Not bad, but not great either. While you have potential to improve your damage a bit, there are other classes that can automatically maximize their damage, such as the Evocation Wizard's Overchannel. This also enforces that you use the second result, so you may end up wasting some Sorcerer Points and dealing less damage than you were before.

Extended Spell: Can be useful in some situations, however most DMs will require you to state you are extending it when you first cast it, rather than towards the end of the duration, making this a bit of a niche choice.

Heightened Spell: Also not a bad option, however there are 2 drawbacks: Firstly, it only applies to the first saving throw, so things like Phantasmal Killer won't be benefitted, however something like Charm Person would be, unless something happens that triggers another saving throw. Secondly, on a spell like Fireball or Lightning Bolt, this debuff is limited to 1 enemy. If you're using Fireball or Lightning Bolt on a single enemy, you're wasting much of the power of these spells.

Quickened Spell: This has the potential to be quite powerful, but not really in the way you'd expect. The PHB has ruled that when casting a spell with a casting time of a Bonus Action, the Action cannot be used to cast a spell of any level beyond a cantrip. So you could use a medicine kit to stabilize an ally, and cast your spell, in the same round, at the cost of 2 sorcery points. Hooray.

Subtle Spell: Perhaps the only truly remarkable Metamagic, this allows you to cast while tied up, gagged, and shackled to a wall. That is, if you don't require any material components. Also, if there aren't any material components (or your DM will allow a sleight of hand roll to hide said component), you can cast a spell without being noticed. Nifty and fun for when you're playing your sorcerer like a Rogue.

Twinned Spell: Also not bad, but the limitations on this spell prevent it from truly achieving it's full potential (Can't use it for things like Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Lightning Bolt). While this could be pretty good in conjunction with Heightened Spell to cast Charm Person on 2 people in the same round in combat, unless otherwise stated (like in Empowered Spell), you can only use one Metamagic at a time.

So there you have it, your breakdown of why Metamagic is not powerful enough to alone constitute a class of it's own. If this isn't enough to convince you, I urge you to keep in mind how few Sorcerer Points you have without this tweak, so while these are useful, if you're using these every round (when 9 times out of 10 a single casting of the right spell will do the job), you're going to run out of Sorcerer Points long before you run out of slots, and then you'll be an under powered, under equipped Wizard.

PhantomSoul

2019-07-13, 05:18 PM

I also setup the system in such a way that the Sorcerer can't nova. It's in my signature.

There's no signature displaying for you... :s

EDIT (new reply since starting this reply):

Distant Spell: the Spell Sniper feat does this already, to every spell you have to roll an attack for, for free. Also you get a free cantrip from it from any class. the Touch spell to 30 ft range is decent for some spells that would be great except for the touch range, namely Vampiric Touch. But Vampiric Touch isn't available to Sorcerers, soooo....

Vampiric Touch isn't a Touch Spell (it has a Range of Self) because it's actually not the attack in itself, but rather a self-"buff" to give the ability to use that attack. Not a big deal for the comment, but something that's probably worth highlighting.

TheUser

2019-07-13, 05:31 PM

Ok, breakdown:

Safe Spell: Not half bad, if you are a fan of AoE spells that only induce effects. However, with spells that are AoE and deal damage (Fireball and Lightening Bolt are prime examples), your allies are still taking half damage, so even with this they aren't going to be a fan of you nuking them. Comparatively, an Evocation Wizard's Sculpt Spells does the same thing, with saves for half damage instead dealing no damage to those you indicate as "safe". Also, this is a feature gained at level 2, and you do not need to expend any resource at all to use it beyond the initial spell slot.

Careful spell works with any spell school. Sculpt Spells (Invoker feature) works with only evocation spells.
This leaves a huge gap for sculpt spells to operate on.
Hypnotic Pattern, Synaptic Static, Fear and Confusion come to mind.

Empowered Spell: Not bad, but not great either. While you have potential to improve your damage a bit, there are other classes that can automatically maximize their damage, such as the Evocation Wizard's Overchannel. This also enforces that you use the second result, so you may end up wasting some Sorcerer Points and dealing less damage than you were before.

If you exclusively re-roll on 1's and 2's on a d6 and re-roll 4 dice on a fireball you literally have a less than 0.5% chance to lower your damage.
It also improves damage by a significant percentage.
Fireball averages 28 damage. Empowered fireballl re-rolling 1's and 2's averages over 33 damage (20% improvement) and unlike overchannel it's usable at level 3, usable with a majority of your spells in a day without murdering you and operates on spells higher than 5th level...

Heightened Spell: Also not a bad option, however there are 2 drawbacks: Firstly, it only applies to the first saving throw, so things like Phantasmal Killer won't be benefitted, however something like Charm Person would be, unless something happens that triggers another saving throw. Secondly, on a spell like Fireball or Lightening Bolt, this debuff is limited to 1 enemy. If you're using Fireball or Lightening Bolt on a single enemy, you're wasting much of the power of these spells.

(It's lightning bolt bro. The first one I chocked up to a typo but it's not reducing your weight....)

Quickened Spell: This has the potential to be quite powerful, but not really in the way you'd expect. The PHB has ruled that when casting a spell with a casting time of a Bonus Action, the Action cannot be used to cast a spell of any level beyond a cantrip. So you could use a medicine kit to stabilize an ally, and cast your spell, in the same round, at the cost of 2 sorcery points. Hooray.
Loads of spells have associated action costs which do not count as casting a spell. Meaning you can cast them and use them again in their first turn and continue to use them on turns there after while slinging other spells. Sunbeam is my premiere example but there are loads of them. Earthen Grasp, Crown of Madness, Self Polymorphs, Telekinesis, Enervate, Eyebite you name it.

Additionally it costs a level 2 spell in sorcery points which means that if your 2 cantrips out damage a level 2 spell it is worthwhile (Draconic Sorcerer doing 6d10+10 fire damage with two firebolts for instance).

Twinned Spell: Also not bad, but the limitations on this spell prevent it from truly achieving it's full potential (Can't use it for things like Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Lightening Bolt). While this could be pretty good in conjunction with Heightened Spell to cast Charm Person on 2 people in the same round in combat, unless otherwise stated (like in Empowered Spell), you can only use one Metamagic at a time.

Even with stricter raw it works with things like Haste, Polymorph, Suggestion, DOMINATE, offensive cantrips that aren't eldritch blast....I mean these are all phenominal value.

So there you have it, your breakdown of why Metamagic is not powerful enough to alone constitute a class of it's own. If this isn't enough to convince you, I urge you to keep in mind how few Sorcerer Points you have without this tweak, so while these are useful, if you're using these every round (when 9 times out of 10 a single casting of the right spell will do the job), you're going to run out of Sorcerer Points long before you run out of slots, and then you'll be an under powered, under equipped Wizard.

Sounds like you haven't played the class or done your research tbh.
I'll grant you that distant, extended and even heightened are ultra meh, but then again I'm not bringing up the conjuration wizard or the transmuter much either....

Trickery

2019-07-13, 05:57 PM

There's no signature displaying for you... :s

How weird! I know I saved it. Alas, here it is: https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ryLQS4Ubr.

And the thread - I developed this with all of your help: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?592006-Hybrid-Sorcerer-A-Simple-Solution. Note the first attempt at the system did too little and lost power after 10, so I made adjustments and formalized it on Homebrewery.

Nagog

2019-07-13, 06:14 PM

Careful spell works with any spell school. Sculpt Spells (Invoker feature) works with only evocation spells.
This leaves a huge gap for sculpt spells to operate on.
Hypnotic Pattern, Synaptic Static, Fear and Confusion come to mind.

While true, those of these that deal damage will steal deal damage, as I stated. Whether your Synaptic Static deals 8d6 or 4d6 damage of friendly fire, those allies aren't going to be friendly about it.

If you exclusively re-roll on 1's and 2's on a d6 and re-roll 4 dice on a fireball you literally have a less than 0.5% chance to lower your damage.
It also improves damage by a significant percentage.
Fireball averages 28 damage. Empowered fireball re-rolling 1's and 2's averages over 33 damage (20% improvement) and unlike overchannel it's usable at level 3, usable with a majority of your spells in a day without murdering you and operates on spells higher than 5th level...

As a note, a 5 damage increase to 28 damage does not equate a 20% increase, but math aside, such an improvement is minimal in comparison to the other bonuses provided by other classes/subclasses. Hexblades Curse, for example, provides a solid bonus equal to your Prof. (scaling) as well as other benefits, such as health regained on a kill, and a higher crit chance on spells that require an attack roll. No limits on it for what kind of spell or attack it is.

(It's lightning bolt bro. The first one I chocked up to a typo but it's not reducing your weight....)

I'm not sure what you're referring to be a typo, could you elaborate?

Loads of spells have associated action costs which do not count as casting a spell. Meaning you can cast them and use them again in their first turn and continue to use them on turns there after while slinging other spells. Sunbeam is my premiere example but there are loads of them. Earthen Grasp, Crown of Madness, Self Polymorphs, Telekinesis, Enervate, Eyebite you name it.

Most of those spells bang their head against the wall that is Concentration. Still useful, but as is my base point, not something to base an entire class on, much less one with the drawbacks a Sorcerer has.

Even with stricter raw it works with things like Haste, Polymorph, Suggestion, DOMINATE, offensive cantrips that aren't eldritch blast....I mean these are all phenominal value.

Indeed, which is why I said it wasn't bad. As with the previous, useful, but not "Makes a solid standing for a base class" useful.

Sounds like you haven't played the class or done your research tbh.
I'll grant you that distant, extended and even heightened are ultra meh, but then again I'm not bringing up the conjuration wizard or the transmuter much either....

Frankly, you sound like a DM that isn't willing to trust your players with creative liberty. I've not played the class, no, but I have DMed for a few of them and in the one that had another caster in the party, the Sorcerer multiclassed out because they didn't feel they had anything to contribute. As for the Transmuter or Conjuration subclass for Wizards, they can be quite powerful if you know how to use them, and even for the worst Wizard subclasses, the base class of Wizard would only be slightly behind a Sorcerer and their subclass, as the sorcerer subclasses don't really get you more than one or if you're lucky, two really good buffs.

The entire point of this update is to give Sorcerers something new, something that makes playing a Sorcerer an entirely different experience than any other caster. For further reference, let's compare what the other casting classes have:

Druid: Wild Shape, Armor, a mostly unique spell list, subclasses that vastly change playstyle
Wizards: Ritual Spellcasting, learning spells between level gains, expansive spell list, more spell slots than other classes, Arcane Recovery, high power subclasses
Warlocks: Where to start? Unique and powerful spells, invocations, Pact choice, Lore-based subclasses
Clerics: Highest density of healing spells, Channel divinity, Medium Armor, play style tailored subclasses
Sorcerers: Metamagic

Half Casters:
Paladins: Smite, Channel Divinity
Rangers (Barely on here due to how many times they've been reworked): Spells built specifically to their playstyle (Lightning Arrow, Flame Arrows, etc.)

Fact of the matter is, while Metamagic is nice, it simply isn't enough to base an entire spellcasting class on.

ProsecutorGodot

2019-07-13, 06:19 PM

Fact of the matter is, while Metamagic is nice, it simply isn't enough to base an entire spellcasting class on.

I wouldn't call this a fact, I see the idea that metamagic is appealing enough that many wish it was available as a feat for other spellcasters as a sign that it does do a lot to make Sorcerer's unique.

A good rule of thumb, in my experience, is that if other players want to steal your class feature, that means it's a good one.

JNAProductions

2019-07-13, 06:36 PM

Autocorrect might be your bane, Nagog-you wrote Lightening Bolt, not Lightning Bolt.

As in, a bolt that makes something lighter.

But nitpicking spelling does not make your points weaker.

Nagog

2019-07-13, 06:38 PM

Autocorrect might be your bane, Nagog-you wrote Lightening Bolt, not Lightning Bolt.

As in, a bolt that makes something lighter.

But nitpicking spelling does not make your points weaker.

Oh! Thanks, I'll update that

TheUser

2019-07-13, 11:11 PM

I've not played the class, no...
....
-snip-
Sorcerers: Metamagic

I'd like to think it surprising that someone who's never experienced playing the class would have no humility with regards to their own opinions but frankly I'm unfazed.

It's funny because your bias over the issue coupled with a lack of actually having played the class is quite apparent; you've listed sorcerer as having only metamagic compared to the numerous features of other classes but completely gloss over Font of Magic as a feature.

As it stands, sorcerers already have more flexible casting system than any other caster but that, apparently, isn't enough for you because it employs a level of decision making on the player's part and a bit of balance on its overall output. Spell points isn't anything new or profound like you're trying to make it out to be in terms of changing the class; it's already there but you want to straight up buff it.

I'm not saying people are wrong to want to buff an aspect of a class, I just see this as an unhealthy way to do it and one that was already adjudicated on by the games own designers and implemented with clear restrictions.

I look forward to your no doubt nuanced opinions on a class you've never played let alone a variant casting system you've never experienced while playing that class.

Trickery

2019-07-13, 11:39 PM

As it stands, sorcerers already have more flexible casting system than any other caster...

Want to address this one point. This is inaccurate. At level 10, a Sorcerer can use its full set of Sorcery points to create one 5th and one 2nd level spell slot, a total of 7 levels worth of spells. A 10th level wizard can recover 5 levels worth of spell slots on a short rest just using Arcane Recovery. Land Druids copy that feature with their Natural Recovery. And of course there's the Divination Wizard who can recover a spell slot every time they cast a 2nd level or higher Divination spell. If we include that on top of Arcane Recovery, Divination Wizards easily cast more spell slots worth of spells per day than the Sorcerer does, and that's before we count rituals.

So I'm curious to know what you mean by flexible. If you mean flexibility in terms of Metamagic, then yes - Sorcerers are the only class that gets Metamagic. However, if you're talking about Font of Magic, then what has the Sorcerer accomplished? By giving up all of his Sorcery Points and thus his Metamagic, he can get slightly ahead of some spell casters and behind others in terms of spell slots. In exchange, he doesn't get the Wizard's spell list or superior spells known or ritual casting, doesn't get the druids armor or wildshaping or extra hit points, doesn't get the bard's incredible class features and higher hp and ability to steal spells from other classes' spell lists...

I don't think anyone would seriously argue that Sorcerers are fine how they are. They don't have flexible casting compared to other spellcasters, and they only have one feature worth mentioning. Font of Magic is really good if you take Warlock levels, but I've seen so many DMs (online, at least) who flatly don't allow that multiclass. And, if a class needs multiclassing in order to be good, then is that really a good class? I don't think so. But I see a lot more excitement about Sorcadins, Sorlocks, and even Sorbards than I ever do about plain Sorcerers. Every now and then, someone has a clever idea about how to use some Metamagic, and that's about it as far as excitement about the class goes.

TheUser

2019-07-13, 11:59 PM

Want to address this one point. This is inaccurate. At level 10, a Sorcerer can use its full set of Sorcery points to create one 5th and one 2nd level spell slot, a total of 7 levels worth of spells. A 10th level wizard can recover 5 levels worth of spell slots on a short rest just using Arcane Recovery. Land Druids copy that feature with their Natural Recovery. And of course there's the Divination Wizard who can recover a spell slot every time they cast a 2nd level or higher Divination spell. If we include that on top of Arcane Recovery, Divination Wizards easily cast more spell slots worth of spells per day than the Sorcerer does, and that's before we count rituals.

So I'm curious to know what you mean by flexible.

Are we being serious here?

I mean flexible in that no other class can convert low level pre-existing spell slots into higher level spell slots....that's literally what Font of Magic does in two steps. You aren't just limited to the sorcery points you start with after a long rest; you have other spell slots that can be converted to replenish spent sorcery points which can then be used to synthesize more high level slots. I'm literally baffled that this discussion has been steered into a direction where you choose to actively ignore how a feature works.

Tell me how a level 9 wizard could cast 4 level 5 spells without a short rest? Guess what, Sorcerers can already do this. They cap out at 6.
They can literally front load the casting potential of a warlock that has recieved two short rests (the reccomend number of short rests per day in the DMG) of the same level without short resting at all. Wizards, Druids, Clerics..literally no other class can do this.

Trickery

2019-07-14, 12:26 AM

Are we being serious here?

I mean flexible in that no other class can convert low level pre-existing spell slots into higher level spell slots....that's literally what Font of Magic does in two steps. You aren't just limited to the sorcery points you start with after a long rest; you have other spell slots that can be converted to replenish spent sorcery points which can then be used to synthesize more high level slots. I'm literally baffled that this discussion has been steered into a direction where you choose to actively ignore how a feature works.

Tell me how a level 9 wizard could cast 4 level 5 spells without a short rest? Guess what, Sorcerers can already do this. They cap out at 6.
They can literally front load the casting potential of a warlock that has recieved two short rests (the reccomend number of short rests per day in the DMG) of the same level without short resting at all. Wizards, Druids, Clerics..literally no other class can do this.

Ah, I see the direction you're taking this. You mean for a Sorcerer to blast away spell slots they don't need in order to create ones that they do. What you mean by flexible is that a 9th level Sorcerer could, theoretically, blow away all of their first and second-level spell slots in order to create one extra fifth-level slot.

Have you ever played with a Sorcerer who regularly did this? I haven't. It feels terrible to do this. You operate at such a steep loss, taking a third and second-level spell slot combined just to make one third-level spell slot. It sucks. Most players I've seen don't even think to do this sort of thing.

And they're right to avoid it. There is seldom a situation where a 5th level spell that the Sorcerer actually knows - not could know, but actually knows - is worth the steep cost. In my experience, pure Sorcerers rarely use their Sorcery Points for anything but Metamagic. They're likely to blow away a second-level slot so they can quicken or twin a different second-level spell, or blow away a first-level slot to empower a third-level spell. The only time I've seen someone create a spell slot is when I had a coffeelock in the group.

In short, you pick a Sorcerer because you want to use Metamagic. The fact that so few players even mention Font of Magic should clue you in that it's not a good feature. Even if you argue that it's a good feature, most people seem to disagree with you.

And, again, it's hard to find situations where the Sorcerer's ability to turn low level spell slots into fewer higher level ones will actually be useful. All of the following must be true. The Sorcerer:

Must actually know a high-level spell that's important enough right now that's it's worth the cost.

This is less likely to be true of the Sorcerer than of any other full-caster.

Must have the time to get rid of low level slots and turn them into higher level ones.

Several rounds in combat. Converting one spell slot or creating one spell slot each cost a bonus action.

Must have enough lower-level slots remaining to create the higher-level slot at a loss.

As you can see, it is not easy to use this feature.

Check out the following thread if there's any doubt in your mind how players feel about Sorcerers. They're rated as the weakest of all of the full-casting classes (of all casters, most likely to be rated the weakest class and least likely to be rated the strongest class). That should tell you something. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?592452-Dnd-5e-questionnaire-Answers

ProsecutorGodot

2019-07-14, 12:57 AM

SNIP
Keep in mind that a Sorcerer does also have an innate pool of Sorcery points, they aren't always going to have to trade in a spell slot to create a new high level one. The aforementioned 9th level Sorcerer can created a second 5th level slot and still have enough Sorcery points left over to apply most metamagics to a spell.

Cantrips are often times a better scaling option than a lot of leveled spells, why not give up those slots for one that you know is going to be more useful, such as trading in your first and second level spell slots for 3rd (fireball, haste) or a few more for 5th (Synaptic Static, Animate Objects)

I'm with TheUser here, failing to see the flexibility of this feature and discounting the usefulness of it is poor form.

You can literally choose to give up potentially useless spell slots (past a certain point your first level spell slots are called Shield slots) for slots you know you can use better. That's pretty much the definition of flexible, even if it is at a loss.

bendking

2019-07-14, 02:00 AM

Keep in mind that a Sorcerer does also have an innate pool of Sorcery points, they aren't always going to have to trade in a spell slot to create a new high level one. The aforementioned 9th level Sorcerer can created a second 5th level slot and still have enough Sorcery points left over to apply most metamagics to a spell.

Indeed, though then you are losing out on what is supposed to be your defining feature: Metamagic.
I think this entire discussion boils down to how powerful someone perceives Metamagic and Font of Magic to be as is, and this premise would lead to whether one thinks this buff is necessary.

However, I have come up with a slightly nerfed version of Spell Points that limits the nova-bility of them, which I perceive as the biggest problem with the system:
you could limit the amount of 3rd, 4th & 5th level spells casted, the limit being the amount of slots you could have synthesized by burning your other spell slots at level 10.
Thus, you can cast up to a maximum of 9 3rd-level spells, 7 4th-level spells or 5 5th-level spells.

I think this is a pretty elegant solution that uses the source material as a bar for power, and simply goes further with the idea of limiting spell casts of level 6th and above.

Also, it seems some people in the comments assert that the Sorcery Points and Spell Points pool should be combined. I believe this is going too far and will allow you to cast way too many metamagic, again making the Sorcerer's nova a bit too big.

Kane0

2019-07-14, 03:33 AM

I’ve yet to come across any significant problems at the table with SP

bendking

2019-07-14, 03:48 AM

I’ve yet to come across any significant problems at the table with SP

Just for Sorcerers, or any spell caster?

@TheUser Btw, your inbox is full :smallbiggrin:

Kane0

2019-07-14, 04:27 AM

Sorry for sorcerers specifically yes.

Edit:

-Snip-

Is it odd that I haven’t taken notice of you in previous sorc threads here? Because this is the kind of post i usually take note of.

bendking

2019-07-14, 04:54 AM

Sorry for sorcerers specifically yes.

Edit:

Is it odd that I haven’t taken notice of you in previous sorc threads here? Because this is the kind of post i usually take note of.

Right. I do suggest implementing a restriction of sorts like the one I suggested above.
Otherwise, I think the nova potential and 15-minute day adventuring day lure will be too great, but to each their own :)

Kane0

2019-07-14, 06:26 AM

I’d advise you try it before tweaking, sometimes its easier to make changes as encountered rather than as anticipated.

bendking

2019-07-14, 06:37 AM

I’d advise you try it before tweaking, sometimes its easier to make changes as encountered rather than as anticipated.

Solid point, simply going off what some people who have tried Spell Points said.
Would rather buff too little than too much.

TheUser

2019-07-14, 06:46 AM

Ah, I see the direction you're taking this. You mean for a Sorcerer to blast away spell slots they don't need in order to create ones that they do. What you mean by flexible is that a 9th level Sorcerer could, theoretically, blow away all of their first and second-level spell slots in order to create one extra fifth-level slot.

Have you ever played with a Sorcerer who regularly did this? I haven't. It feels terrible to do this. You operate at such a steep loss, taking a third and second-level spell slot combined just to make one third-level spell slot. It sucks. Most players I've seen don't even think to do this sort of thing.

And they're right to avoid it. There is seldom a situation where a 5th level spell that the Sorcerer actually knows - not could know, but actually knows - is worth the steep cost. In my experience, pure Sorcerers rarely use their Sorcery Points for anything but Metamagic. They're likely to blow away a second-level slot so they can quicken or twin a different second-level spell, or blow away a first-level slot to empower a third-level spell. The only time I've seen someone create a spell slot is when I had a coffeelock in the group.

In short, you pick a Sorcerer because you want to use Metamagic. The fact that so few players even mention Font of Magic should clue you in that it's not a good feature. Even if you argue that it's a good feature, most people seem to disagree with you.

And, again, it's hard to find situations where the Sorcerer's ability to turn low level spell slots into fewer higher level ones will actually be useful. All of the following must be true. The Sorcerer:

Must actually know a high-level spell that's important enough right now that's it's worth the cost.

This is less likely to be true of the Sorcerer than of any other full-caster.

Must have the time to get rid of low level slots and turn them into higher level ones.

Several rounds in combat. Converting one spell slot or creating one spell slot each cost a bonus action.

Must have enough lower-level slots remaining to create the higher-level slot at a loss.

As you can see, it is not easy to use this feature.

Check out the following thread if there's any doubt in your mind how players feel about Sorcerers. They're rated as the weakest of all of the full-casting classes (of all casters, most likely to be rated the weakest class and least likely to be rated the strongest class). That should tell you something. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?592452-Dnd-5e-questionnaire-Answers

Yes you could always dump all your second level and one first level spell for one 5th level slot
-OR-
You could dump 1 fourth and 1 third level slot instead (which sounds a whole lot better).

Casting a high level spell vs multiple low level ones grants a premium on your turn efficiency. Frontloading an encounter is always the best way to improve your odds of winning and reduce wear and tear on the group; the faster you win the less actions enemies have to use against you.

Sometimes, the most efficient solution is putting out as much damage/utility as quickly as possible.

For example:
Fireball is slightly overtuned and if you are level 5 and have the option of doing two shatters and a burning hands or a fireball it's far more time efficient to do the fireball in the circumstances that favor it (more enemies in a larger area with more HP).

To poopoo font of magic for taxing high level slot conversion demonstrates that you've never gone through the decision making process of when to do it because it is often very favorable if you need to maximize your effective use of time.

Remember that all the way up until level 18 most other casters get all of 2 casts of 5th level spells...
Warlocks get -only- 5th level spells.
And Wizards/Land Druids get 1 more 5th level cast until level 19 when arcane recovery can provide two extra casts.

That means 5th level spells, which by their very nature, are designed to be extremely valuable, are much more castable by Sorcerers. Actively ignoring the value of a feature like that because it has costs and an element of tactical analysis says a lot more about you than the ability...

EDIT: As for that survey, sorcerers require a level of planning, system mastery and finesse that a bulk of the community lacks. Coupled with the fact that many DM's will allow forms of "quiet casting" strips power from the sorcerers most impressive niche.
You yourself frequent a D&D discussion board but even still cannot find usefulness out of font of magic. Clearly there is a level of nuance that is not easy to observe. Sometimes people have only their impression of the class to work with in their head but form strong opinions regardless (Nagog being an excellent example of this in this very thread).

Trickery

2019-07-14, 09:26 AM

To poopoo font of magic for taxing high level slot conversion demonstrates that you've never gone through the decision making process of when to do it because it is often very favorable if you need to maximize your effective use of time.

SNIP

EDIT: As for that survey, sorcerers require a level of planning, system mastery and finesse that a bulk of the community lacks. Coupled with the fact that many DM's will allow forms of "quiet casting" strips power from the sorcerers most impressive niche.
You yourself frequent a D&D discussion board but even still cannot find usefulness out of font of magic. Clearly there is a level of nuance that is not easy to observe. Sometimes people have only their impression of the class to work with in their head but form strong opinions regardless (Nagog being an excellent example of this in this very thread).

I'm glad you mentioned effective use of time, because it's the most overlooked weakness of font of magic. As I said in my post, the Sorcerer not only has to decide that a higher level spell is better than several or their lower level spells and convert at a loss, they also have to do so before combat. You can't make that decision in combat unless you went in with a plethora of Sorcery Points because it will take three turns to turn two second level spells and a spare Sorcery point into one third level spell.

Regarding the second part of your post that I quoted, this seems...insulting. Pardon me if you didn't mean it that way. You seem to imply that people who don't like the Sorcerer as written are merely not intelligent or skilled enough to play it. That's really not the issue here. Any class is good in the hands of a player who is skilled at planning ahead. In fact, any class is good in the hands of a player who merely reads its features carefully.

Actually, the way the class feels is the entire problem. The Sorcerer's features are at odds with each other. Constitution saving throws on the caster least able to take a hit. Metamagic, but it costs Sorcery points of which you barely have any. Creation of spell slots, but you have to consume Sorcery points which fuel Metamagic - the reason you took the class. You can convert spell slots into Sorcery Points for more Metamagic and Font of Magic, but then you aren't casting spells.

Warlock gets around the limited spells problem by having invocations and a strong cantrip in Eldritch Blast. Sorcerer doesn't have that. Without spells, the Sorcerer is one step away from useless. They can't even Help allies effectively because doing so usually puts them in melee range.

And you're suggesting that Sorcerers consume more spell slots to inefficiently cast fewer spells. Not only do they have to predict ahead of time that they'll need to do so, but the result is them casting less than half as many spells with those points as they otherwise could have done.

That feels awful. Even if it's not as bad as playing a Ranger, even if the player is the best planner at the table, even if everyone else is playing a meme build, it feels crappy to play a class with a tiny number of features that compete with and contradict each other in this way.

And besides, we're up to two features now on a frail, D6 hp class who doesn't cast any more spells per day than a Bard can - fewer if they use font of magic the way you describe. Do you really think font of magic and Metamagic alone are worth all of the things Sorcerers lose by not playing a different class?

ImperiousLeader

2019-07-14, 12:27 PM

Fact of the matter is, while Metamagic is nice, it simply isn't enough to base an entire spellcasting class on.

Yes, but it gives us a direction for how to improve the Sorcerer, or set it apart from the other classes. With all classes now able to cast spells flexibly like the 3.5 Sorcerer, we still have Sorcerers having the ability to manipulate spells via Metamagic. That's what I would want the Sorcerer to lean into. Much like how the Warlock can augment Eldritch Blast with Invocations, the Sorcerer augments all their spells with Metamagic.

What the Sorcerer needs then, is some more impactful Metamagics and to learn more of them. Things like Energy Substitution, that allow you to change damage types. A Persistent Spell, which allows the Sorcerer to cast certain Concentration spells without Concentration. Metamagics that augment thematic casters, like Searing Spell that improves fire spells, or Pierce Resistance Spell.

Trickery

2019-07-14, 12:31 PM

Yes, but it gives us a direction for how to improve the Sorcerer, or set it apart from the other classes. With all classes now able to cast spells flexibly like the 3.5 Sorcerer, we still have Sorcerers having the ability to manipulate spells via Metamagic. That's what I would want the Sorcerer to lean into. Much like how the Warlock can augment Eldritch Blast with Invocations, the Sorcerer augments all their spells with Metamagic.

What the Sorcerer needs then, is some more impactful Metamagics and to learn more of them. Things like Energy Substitution, that allow you to change damage types. A Persistent Spell, which allows the Sorcerer to cast certain Concentration spells without Concentration. Metamagics that augment thematic casters, like Searing Spell that improves fire spells, or Pierce Resistance Spell.

I suspect adding lots of niche Metamagic options like 3.5e had as a homebrew would confuse players. Most would just stick with what they already use or maybe pick up one.

I'd rather tie this kind of mechanic to origins. For example, give draconic sorcerers the ability to change any spell's damage type to their draconic damage type.

Is it odd that I haven’t taken notice of you in previous sorc threads here? Because this is the kind of post i usually take note of.

Thank you. No, I don't think it's odd. I haven't been here very long. And I think we all have trouble keeping track of...well, everything.

Sindal

2019-07-14, 01:18 PM

On a personal level, i'm not a fan of the spellpoint system. Mostly because the current spellslot system more or less handles how much I want to cast stuff.
I could cast more and it could be a little simpler. I don't mind it, mind you. If that's the system we're using for spells then kewl, but it would not make me feel like an improved sorceror. Most it would do it make me feel like i'm doing something different for the sake of being different.

My qualms with with the sorcerer is usually their known spells. I've mentioned my engraved spell mechanic that I add to sorcerors whenever I DM in other threads so I won't bore everyone again with that.

But yeah.
Indifferent to 'eh' on spell points for me.

ImperiousLeader

2019-07-14, 01:20 PM

I suspect adding lots of niche Metamagic options like 3.5e had as a homebrew would confuse players. Most would just stick with what they already use or maybe pick up one.

I'd rather tie this kind of mechanic to origins. For example, give draconic sorcerers the ability to change any spell's damage type to their draconic damage type.

Maybe, but this route requires a more dramatic rewrite of the Sorcerer than I feel is warranted. I'm fairly happy with the Sorcerer as is, I just feel it needs more material. So, more Metamagic, and spells that are unique to the Sorcerer spell list.

If I were to alter the Sorcerer class at all, here's what I would do:

Increase spells known by 1. So a Sorcerer starts at level 1 with 3 spells known, and eventually learns 16.
Eschew Materials. Sorcerers do not need to provide material components that have no cost.
The Sorcerer gains additional Metamagic options at level 7 and 13.
At level 10, give the Sorcerer bonus Sorcery points equal to their Charisma modifier.

This leaves all the subclasses untouched, and gives the Sorcerer bonuses at the appropriate times in their career. Low level Sorcerers are hurting for more spells, so +1 helps there. When the other classes start really adding more spells, Sorcerers start gaining more raw power and the Metamagic to manipulate their smaller toolkit of spells.

bendking

2019-07-15, 05:51 AM

If I were to alter the Sorcerer class at all, here's what I would do:

Increase spells known by 1. So a Sorcerer starts at level 1 with 3 spells known, and eventually learns 16.
Eschew Materials. Sorcerers do not need to provide material components that have no cost.
The Sorcerer gains additional Metamagic options at level 7 and 13.
At level 10, give the Sorcerer bonus Sorcery points equal to their Charisma modifier.

This leaves all the subclasses untouched, and gives the Sorcerer bonuses at the appropriate times in their career. Low level Sorcerers are hurting for more spells, so +1 helps there. When the other classes start really adding more spells, Sorcerers start gaining more raw power and the Metamagic to manipulate their smaller toolkit of spells.

1. I'm not sure it's enough. Perhaps an extra spell known for each level in which you reach a new tier.
2. Is that really relevant though? 99% of the times this will make no difference.
3. I like this.
4. This may be too much. I'm not sure.

Dr. Cliché

2019-07-15, 09:41 AM

Trickery

2019-07-15, 10:42 AM

I know I'm in the minority here but I really wish Sorcerers hadn't been given metamagic at all.

To me at least it never felt like a sorcerer ability but a wizard one. It seems intended to represent more flexible casting, yet it does so in the most rigid way possible. A sorcerer first needs to select just a couple of metamagic talents, each of which applies a very specific modification, that often only works with a specific type of spell.

It seems like something that should be representing a specialist wizard rather than a sorcerer.

But more importantly, it draws focus away from what should be the defining aspect of sorcerers - their bloodline. This is the entire source of their magical power and should be a huge influence on how they play (probably far more so than the base class). But the actual bloodlines are instead relegated to being little more than window-dressing, with Metamagic instead being the main focus of every sorcerer, regardless of their individual heritage.

I agree. When 5e first released, many caster players were irritated that only Sorcerers got Metamagic. There were suggestions to remove the class entirely and give Metamagic to all casters.

Metamagic was never the Sorcerer's identity before. They were easier to play casters in 3.5e - plan less, cast more. And they were blasters in 4e, or so I'm told. What are they in 5e? Metamagic guys.

If someone had a thought to expand origins, give Sorcerers some form of spell points, and give all casters Metamagic options in the form of expending extra spell slots or upcasting spells to achieve the effect, I'd be all for it.

ImperiousLeader

2019-07-15, 11:20 AM

1. I'm not sure it's enough. Perhaps an extra spell known for each level in which you reach a new tier.
2. Is that really relevant though? 99% of the times this will make no difference.
3. I like this.
4. This may be too much. I'm not sure.

1. I want to give the Sorcerer more options without suddenly being able to match the Bard or Wizard in spell selection. I view the Sorcerer as a spell specialist, their array of spells may be smaller, but they can do more with them. Hence why I tend to focus on augmenting their access to Metamagic.
2. Purely a ribbon ability most of the time, but it does mean that, with Subtle Spell, Sorcerers almost always have complete access to their spells. Take away the arcane focus or component pouch from any other caster and they're restricted in spells, but not Sorcerers.
3. Thanks, though note I'm pairing this with adding more Metamagic.
4. It's a 50% bonus to Sorcery points, assuming a 20 Charisma at level 10. This is the same level all Bards gain access to spells from any class (and they have 14 known, compared to 11 as written, 12 if modified), and Wizards can prepare 15 spells (assuming 20 Intelligence). It's a significant power bump, but that's why I don't give it earlier. The other option I've toyed with is giving half of the capstone ability here and let Sorcerers recover 2 points every short rest, but I like the raw increase more.

I know I'm in the minority here but I really wish Sorcerers hadn't been given metamagic at all.

To me at least it never felt like a sorcerer ability but a wizard one. It seems intended to represent more flexible casting, yet it does so in the most rigid way possible. A sorcerer first needs to select just a couple of metamagic talents, each of which applies a very specific modification, that often only works with a specific type of spell.

It seems like something that should be representing a specialist wizard rather than a sorcerer.

I've heard this argument before, and I can see the rationale, and I'm not opposed to it. I tend to think that Wizards are classical Musicians, while Sorcerers are Jazz musicians. Metamagic is riffing, improvising on a spell. This is why I want the Sorcerer to know more Metamagic and have more interesting options.

But more importantly, it draws focus away from what should be the defining aspect of sorcerers - their bloodline. This is the entire source of their magical power and should be a huge influence on how they play (probably far more so than the base class). But the actual bloodlines are instead relegated to being little more than window-dressing, with Metamagic instead being the main focus of every sorcerer, regardless of their individual heritage.

Then we end up with the Pathfinder 2 Sorcerer, and I'm just not a fan of that implementation. I like a strong core class identity. When I evaluate the differences between the various arcane caster classes, it's a lot easier to ignore subclasses initially, because subclasses are additive, not transformative.

bendking

2019-07-15, 11:29 AM

bendking

2019-07-15, 11:37 AM

1. I want to give the Sorcerer more options without suddenly being able to match the Bard or Wizard in spell selection. I view the Sorcerer as a spell specialist, their array of spells may be smaller, but they can do more with them. Hence why I tend to focus on augmenting their access to Metamagic.
2. Purely a ribbon ability most of the time, but it does mean that, with Subtle Spell, Sorcerers almost always have complete access to their spells. Take away the arcane focus or component pouch from any other caster and they're restricted in spells, but not Sorcerers.
3. Thanks, though note I'm pairing this with adding more Metamagic.
4. It's a 50% bonus to Sorcery points, assuming a 20 Charisma at level 10. This is the same level all Bards gain access to spells from any class (and they have 14 known, compared to 11 as written, 12 if modified), and Wizards can prepare 15 spells (assuming 20 Intelligence). It's a significant power bump, but that's why I don't give it earlier. The other option I've toyed with is giving half of the capstone ability here and let Sorcerers recover 2 points every short rest, but I like the raw increase more.

1. I understand what you mean. Honestly, with 3. and 4., it's already quite a nice power bump. I'm just not sure it's enough. Sorcerers don't hurt just from being less versatile in comparison to Wizards, they also often times have lesser action economy. This is because while a Wizard can afford to learn & prepare a few nice non-concentration spells to cast while he is concentrating, a Sorcerer often can't justify taking them. This ends up in the Sorcerer a lesser amount of meaningful turns in combat, which a few more spells known could really shore up for him.
However, I think 3, 4 and my offer may be too strong, which is why I'm in favor of only increasing spells known and metamagics. Thus we're not messing with the number of metamagics a Sorcerer was meant to cast by the devs, but we're giving him more options and better action economy.

Alternatively, we could simply give him Spell Points the way I suggested in the comment above. I think it's a good solution as well.

Trickery

2019-07-15, 12:22 PM

I do wonder what you think about using the Spell Point system, but by limiting spell uses like so:
1st & 2nd level spells: 9 uses
3rd, 4th, & 5th level spells: 5 uses
6th & above: 1 use

I'm trying to get some feedback on this system. It seems Sorcerers were already built to be able to nova with Font of Magic, but it is simply too unfavorable unless you know you're going to have just one fight that day (in which case it is quite powerful and even overlooked by most, but that depends on your DM and campaign).
I think using Spell Points but limiting the nova capabilities of the Sorcerer makes a lot of sense and doesn't break away too much from the designers intent.

Tracking how many of which spell you've cast is too much paperwork to add onto a player who is already tracking spell points, I think. Additionally, the Sorcerer can already nova all that they want to. So can the Wizard. And it's generally what players do. They save their big spell slots for difficult encounters. It's not too much different from a Paladin saving their smites or a Rogue saving their poisons or a Monk saving their ki points. Most classes can nova. It's really only the Rogue, Fighter, and Ranger who don't have much nova potential - though action surge is a nice nova at some levels.

My way of limiting Sorcerer novas was to make them a hybrid between warlocks and wizards. They start off with some of their Sorcery Points and get the rest as recovery from short rests, thus detering them from saving all of their points to drop 9 points per round on the boss at the end of the day.

bendking

2019-07-15, 12:35 PM

Tracking how many of which spell you've cast is too much paperwork to add onto a player who is already tracking spell points, I think. Additionally, the Sorcerer can already nova all that they want to. So can the Wizard. And it's generally what players do. They save their big spell slots for difficult encounters. It's not too much different from a Paladin saving their smites or a Rogue saving their poisons or a Monk saving their ki points. Most classes can nova. It's really only the Rogue, Fighter, and Ranger who don't have much nova potential - though action surge is a nice nova at some levels.

My way of limiting Sorcerer novas was to make them a hybrid between warlocks and wizards. They start off with some of their Sorcery Points and get the rest as recovery from short rests, thus detering them from saving all of their points to drop 9 points per round on the boss at the end of the day.

I don't think it's that much more paperwork. Like, 5 seconds more of your time every time it's your turn? It's pretty minuscule in my mind.
I don't consider Spell Points to be more paperwork than Spell Slots, so combining the both is really not a big deal.

Perhaps you misundertsood what I meant by nova. What I mean by this is burning your lower level spell slots to get more of your highest one with Font of Magic.
A 10th level Sorcerer can cast 6 5th spells in a day. This is a bigger than nova than any class can do. A Wizard doesn't compare with his 2 casts.
However, when this nova is achieved, it burns the Sorcerer out big time. I'm simply suggesting a system that lets him do a nova like this but still remain useful, without letting you nova harder than you could have otherwise (regular Spell Points let you cast 9 5th level spells a day, 50% more).

I do like your system by the way, for mine I'm simply trying not to depart too much from vanillia.

Trickery

2019-07-15, 12:40 PM

I don't think it's that much more paperwork. Like, 5 seconds more of your time every time it's your turn? It's pretty minuscule in my mind.
I don't consider Spell Points to be more paperwork than Spell Slots, so combining the both is really not a big deal.

Perhaps you misundertsood what I meant by nova. What I mean by this is burning your lower level spell slots to get more of your highest one with Font of Magic.
A 10th level Sorcerer can cast 6 5th spells in a day. This is a bigger than nova than any class can do. A Wizard doesn't compare with his 2 casts.
However, when this nova is achieved, it burns the Sorcerer out big time. I'm simply suggesting a system that lets him do a nova like this but still remain useful, without letting you nova harder than you could have otherwise (regular Spell Points let you cast 9 5th level spells a day, 50% more).

How many encounters do you have per day that can be solved by 5th level spells? And are you thinking of 5th level spells in general, or the one or two maximum that a 9th level Sorcerer can know? In my experience, high level spells are best reserved for specific situations. Low level spells often get the job done for a small resource cost.

This seems to be a lot of theorycrafting. The truth is that we don't have good playtest data for how a spell point Sorcerer plays or, more importantly, how it feels to the player.

Nova or not, it would be a way to differentiate the Sorcerer as more than just a Wizard with Metamagic. As long as the Sorcerer doesn't do what a Wizard does - and it likely never will regardless of who's system you use - then players aren't stepping on each other's toes. Thus your system enjoys the best kind of balance: diversity.

bendking

2019-07-15, 12:53 PM

How many encounters do you have per day that can be solved by 5th level spells? And are you thinking of 5th level spells in general, or the one or two maximum that a 9th level Sorcerer can know? In my experience, high level spells are best reserved for specific situations. Low level spells often get the job done for a small resource cost.

This seems to be a lot of theorycrafting. The truth is that we don't have good playtest data for how a spell point Sorcerer plays or, more importantly, how it feels to the player.

Nova or not, it would be a way to differentiate the Sorcerer as more than just a Wizard with Metamagic. As long as the Sorcerer doesn't do what a Wizard does - and it likely never will regardless of who's system you use - then players aren't stepping on each other's toes. Thus your system enjoys the best kind of balance: diversity.

I would argue most (combat) situations can be solved using Animate Objects, Synaptic Static or Hold Monster. Concentrating on Animate Objects or some other, not broken spell & spamming 4/5 Synaptic Statics in a battle is a lot nicer than concentrating on a spell and casting 1 Synaptic Static. Sorcerers are the nova kings of 5e if they can afford it.
It's just that they most often can't, limiting the usefulness of Font of Magic pretty heavily.
And of course, you could pretty easily learn four 5th level spells by level 10, though you're probably better sticking to 3.

I do agree this is very theorycraft-y. I intend to use this system for my current PC, and see how it works out for us.
I also intend to compare my spell output per day to what I could have achieved using Font of Magic, and see how much it differs in practice (I suspect it won't be too much).
Hopefully this system won't make Sorcerer a whole lot stronger, but make him feel a whole lot better to play.

Trickery

2019-07-15, 01:15 PM

I would argue most (combat) situations can be solved using Animate Objects, Synaptic Static or Hold Monster. Concentrating on Animate Objects or some other, not broken spell & spamming 4/5 Synaptic Statics in a battle is a lot nicer than concentrating on a spell and casting 1 Synaptic Static. Sorcerers are the nova kings of 5e if they can afford it.
It's just that they most often can't, limiting the usefulness of Font of Magic pretty heavily.
And of course, you could pretty easily learn four 5th level spells by level 10, though you're probably better sticking to 3.

I do agree this is very theorycraft-y. I intend to use this system for my current PC, and see how it works out for us.
I also intend to compare my spell output per day to what I could have achieved using Font of Magic, and see how much it differs in practice (I suspect it won't be too much).
Hopefully this system won't make Sorcerer a whole lot stronger, but make him feel a whole lot better to play.

I'm interested to hear how it goes.

bendking

2019-07-15, 01:49 PM

I'm interested to hear how it goes.

Will probably take a while to get conclusions, I might update here when I have enough data.

ImperiousLeader

2019-07-15, 02:13 PM

I do wonder what you think about using the Spell Point system, but by limiting spell uses like so:
1st & 2nd level spells: 9 uses
3rd, 4th, & 5th level spells: 5 uses
6th & above: 1 use

I don't hate it, but I feel like this is reinventing the wheel, and introducing yet more bookkeeping in a method that is already bookkeeping intensive. The advantage of going to spell points is that one gains more flexibility in how one expends their points, if you're restricting them, why not just stay with spell slots?

It's been awhile since we've heard about the Psion, but last I heard, Mearls was thinking of making them more like a conventional caster that uses spell slots by default, with again, having an optional point system.

bendking

2019-07-15, 02:33 PM

I don't hate it, but I feel like this is reinventing the wheel, and introducing yet more bookkeeping in a method that is already bookkeeping intensive. The advantage of going to spell points is that one gains more flexibility in how one expends their points, if you're restricting them, why not just stay with spell slots?

1. This allows you to nova without blowing your entire load, as I explained in a previous comment.
2. It alleviates some of your troubles with spells known. No longer do you need to have both Synaptic Static and Fireball for when your 5th level spells run out, you can simply cast another Synaptic Static without hitting your spell slots bank like a truck with regular Font of Magic.

You could already do the first point, but at a steep cost, which made it quite a situational edge Sorcerer has on other casters (namely, Wizard). Now it's just an edge.
The second point is quite important too, as it lets you breathe a little bit when choosing your spells without actually increasing spells known.

EDIT:
As for why to limit the casts, I think I detailed this as well. Casting 9 5th level spells is a lot at level 10. 50% more than a regular Sorcerer can. Limiting it to 5, the most a 9th level Sorcerer can cast when burning all his other slots for 5th level slots, made sense to me sense it's the limit you have in vanilla as well.

Trickery

2019-07-15, 03:00 PM

1. This allows you to nova without blowing your entire load, as I explained in a previous comment.
2. It alleviates some of your troubles with spells known. No longer do you need to have both Synaptic Static and Fireball for when your 5th level spells run out, you can simply cast another Synaptic Static without hitting your spell slots bank like a truck with regular Font of Magic.

You could already do the first point, but at a steep cost, which made it quite a situational edge Sorcerer has on other casters (namely, Wizard). Now it's just an edge.
The second point is quite important too, as it lets you breathe a little bit when choosing your spells without actually increasing spells known.

EDIT:
As for why to limit the casts, I think I detailed this as well. Casting 9 5th level spells is a lot at level 10. 50% more than a regular Sorcerer can. Limiting it to 5, the most a 9th level Sorcerer can cast when burning all his other slots for 5th level slots, made sense to me sense it's the limit you have in vanilla as well.

The trouble I have is that, any time someone proposes giving a buff to Sorcerers, it's like we have to scale it back before we even see how it plays. People seem hesitant to change anything about the Sorcerer for fear of making the Sorcerer too good.

I don't think that's something we need to worry about. The Sorcerer has fewer spells known than the Wizard can prepare, let alone know, and that's true at every level. Their tiny number of spells known is their most major drawback compared to Wizards. That's why people have the idea to give them spell points. But every time someone proposes a system like that, everyone else says it would be too good and we have to make sure that the Sorcerer isn't casting more spells of a given level than they already could.

Why?

The entire point of changing Sorcerer is so that it will be more useful, more flexible, or more fun to play. If in doing so we place limitations on the class such that they can't really do anything they couldn't already do, then we haven't changed anything.

bendking

2019-07-15, 03:18 PM

The trouble I have is that, any time someone proposes giving a buff to Sorcerers, it's like we have to scale it back before we even see how it plays. People seem hesitant to change anything about the Sorcerer for fear of making the Sorcerer too good.

I don't think that's something we need to worry about. The Sorcerer has fewer spells known than the Wizard can prepare, let alone know, and that's true at every level. Their tiny number of spells known is their most major drawback compared to Wizards. That's why people have the idea to give them spell points. But every time someone proposes a system like that, everyone else says it would be too good and we have to make sure that the Sorcerer isn't casting more spells of a given level than they already could.

Why?

The entire point of changing Sorcerer is so that it will be more useful, more flexible, or more fun to play. If in doing so we place limitations on the class such that they can't really do anything they couldn't already do, then we haven't changed anything.

I do see what you're saying, but all the discussions around buffing Sorcerers circle around a single point which some people can't seem to agree on: how good is Sorcerer currently?
It seems like the majority of the community suggests it is weaker than the Wizard hands down, however there are some compelling arguements by a minority of members that suggest he is not as weak as he seems at first glance.

I take the stance in the middle. I do think the Sorcerer is more powerful than he is given credit for, but I still don't think he is as powerful as the Wizard, and thus needs some changes/buffs.
This is why I think it's appropriate to be careful with any buffs we give him, which is what I'm trying to do.
TheUser thinks even this is too much. You seem to think it's too little. There's no objective true answer. Each table will just have to play it by ear.

When it comes down to it, the way Sorcerer is right now feels like a hassle to play. That's why I'm in favor of changing him: to make him more fun.

Trickery

2019-07-15, 03:26 PM

I do see what you're saying, but all the discussions around buffing Sorcerers circle around a single point which some people can't seem to agree on: how good is Sorcerer currently?
It seems like the majority of the community suggests it is weaker than the Wizard hands down, however there are some compelling arguements by a minority of members that suggest he is not as weak as he seems at first glance.

I take the stance in the middle. I do think the Sorcerer is more powerful than he is given credit for, but I still don't think he is as powerful as the Wizard, and thus needs some changes/buffs.
This is why I think it's appropriate to be careful with any buffs we give him, which is what I'm trying to do.
TheUser thinks even this is too much. You seem to think it's too little. There's no objective true answer. Each table will just have to play it by ear.

When it comes down to it, the way Sorcerer is right now feels like a hassle to play. That's why I'm in favor of changing him: to make him more fun.

That's fair. I can't pretend to have all of the answers. The angle I'm coming from is more along the lines of: what will be fun to play and won't require too much bookkeeping? Wizards are the bookkeeping class, and they're rewarded for it. The ideal place for Sorcerers in my opinion is at the other end of the spectrum - ease of use.

Kane0

2019-07-15, 03:29 PM

Those that perceive the sorc as plenty good as-is usually cite specific metamagics such as subtle and twin in their arguments. Tackling those might lead to better discourse.

GeistInMachine

2019-07-15, 03:31 PM

The trouble I have is that, any time someone proposes giving a buff to Sorcerers, it's like we have to scale it back before we even see how it plays. People seem hesitant to change anything about the Sorcerer for fear of making the Sorcerer too good.

I don't think that's something we need to worry about. The Sorcerer has fewer spells known than the Wizard can prepare, let alone know, and that's true at every level. Their tiny number of spells known is their most major drawback compared to Wizards. That's why people have the idea to give them spell points. But every time someone proposes a system like that, everyone else says it would be too good and we have to make sure that the Sorcerer isn't casting more spells of a given level than they already could.

Why?

The entire point of changing Sorcerer is so that it will be more useful, more flexible, or more fun to play. If in doing so we place limitations on the class such that they can't really do anything they couldn't already do, then we haven't changed anything.

I've played a Sorcerer from 2-19, and in my experience, a Sorcerer is is the tough spot of having a very high skill floor, but also a very high skill ceiling.

I think the number one issue with sorcerers is that a thematic sorcerer is a bad sorcerer
Any theme you put into your choices, further restricts the spellist.

Now, purely mechanically, I will contend that a sorcerer is easily in contention for the strongest combat caster. Yes, their utility is reduced for it significantly, but several metamagics are basically build around breaking the mechanics of the game

Namely Twin breaks concentration and secondarily action economy
Quicken breaks action economy
Subtle breaks social encounters and combat counterplay

To build a sorcerer, I think first

-Battlefield Role i will play
-Metamagics to achieve that role
-Subclass that pairs with metamagics
-Race which complements my role

Now the issue of course is just how mechanical of an approach this is

New players do not have the game sense to build a sorcerer with enough forplanning to be satisfied, because what is needed to succeed is planning and a degree of detachment from the class and subclass fluff. If you build with a character concept first, you pidgeonhole yourself.

Its like a character in a MOBA or a class based shooter that is hard to pick up, but very OP by a skilled player

So back to your question, the concern is how to design any revamps to the class that make it friendlier to new players, that don't entirely break the strength of the class for someone who knows what they are doing.

We need to reduce the skill floor, not bump up power(or power as flexibility) across the board

Trickery

2019-07-15, 03:38 PM

Those that perceive the sorc as plenty good as-is usually cite specific metamagics such as subtle and twin in their arguments. Tackling those might lead to better discourse.

Twin I can understand. It's something only the Sorcerer can do that can inform playstyle and create some cool effects.

Subtle - less so. It's great in theory, making you able to get away with casting spells on people in public, preventing your spells from being countered, and allowing you to cast spells while hiding. In theory.

In practice...well, maybe I'm jaded. But the usual response I hear when I do this kind of unusual thing at the table goes something like this:

DM (not knowing about the option): that can't be right. It would be OP.

Me: no, it totally works, see page X.

DM and me: (long discussion that interrupts play).

DM, after five minutes or so: okay, I'll allow it, but (creates house rule that prevents it from actually accomplishing anything meaningful in the game, so it's basically flavor)

Me: but that's not...whatever.

Paladin: okay, I crit with my smite, so the boss is dead.

With subtle in particular, there's suddenly a court wizard investigating you, a blindsight mob who knows where you're hiding, and a counterspeller with Detect Magic who can see you casting.

Moral of the story: if it seems like a strong option and isn't something most people know about, then there's a high likelihood that your DM will either disallow or houserule it - yes, even in AL.

bendking

2019-07-15, 03:51 PM

The ideal place for Sorcerers in my opinion is at the other end of the spectrum - ease of use.
That's fair as well :smallsmile:
I'm not sure what's what I want out of Sorcerers. They are already a high-skill class, and I do want to keep it that way, though your approach is valid as well of course.

Those that perceive the sorc as plenty good as-is usually cite specific metamagics such as subtle and twin in their arguments. Tackling those might lead to better discourse.

I'm not sure I understand what ou mean by that last sentence. Do you mean we should tackle the effectiveness of those metamagics?

I think the number one issue with sorcerers is that a thematic sorcerer is a bad sorcerer
Any theme you put into your choices, further restricts the spellist.

Indeed, and while a Social God Sorcerer with Subtle Spell can break social encounter, that's about all he can do (that's hyperbole, of course, but there's truth to it).
That's one problem with Subtle Spell which I don't see mentioned too often. Sure, you can not pigeon hole yourself into spells that work best with Subtle Spell, but then your not as effective as a social master.
And besides, what if you don't want to be that role? That is literally the Sorcerer's most powerful niche.You're left with trying to be a good blaster with Empowered & Quickened to channel Sunbeam or whatever while blasting away.
So we're left with the conclusion that unless you want to be a social engineering god or a blaster (which arguably isn't better than a straight Evoker), you should play Wizard.
I don't think that's an indication of a well designed class, nor what people want when they want to play Sorcerer.
The class fantasy to me sounds like a caster who doesn't know many spells, but is very effective and flexbile with them. The reality of the Sorcerer is that he is very effective only when specializing, and isn't all that flexible.

Now back to your question, the concern is how to design any revamps to the class that make it friendlier to new players, that don't entirely break the strength of the class for someone who knows what they are doing.

We need to reduce the skill floor, not bump up power(or power as flexibility) across the board
This feels like an accurate assessment indeed. I don't know if there is a simple solution to this problem. It may very well be that a power bump is simply necessary.
I feel like the system I proposed in previous comments is a good power bump that isn't overly powerful, in that it makes lower-skilled players make use of Font of Magic more (since it's now compulsory) while not letting you nova super hard.

I will concede that in the hands of a high-skill Sorcrerer player and with the changes in mind, the class will be very powerful. But then again, so are a bunch of other builds when trying to.
Wizard in the hands of a high-skill player is also pretty broken. So is Sorcadin. Or just a straight Paladin, for that matter.
Is it that bad to buff a Sorcerer to a level which only high-skill players can break it? I think the answer is no, since there are already a bunch of ways to break the game.
Balancing around high-skill players in a PvE game is pretty bad form anyway, and I would argue isn't the philosophy of 5E's (nor D&D's) design (and if it is, it doesn't achieve that goal), since it's an inherently unbalanced game.
To summarise, I think if we can balance the class to be on-par with Wizard in terms of power level for most players, we should try for it. High skill players will optimize the crap out of anything anyway, and trying to balance around them is mostly going to take the fun out of the class for most other players, as polls regarding Sorcerer's power level and player satisfaction seems to be suggesting for a long time now.

DM (not knowing about the option): that can't be right. It would be OP.

Me: no, it totally works, see page X.

DM and me: (long discussion that interrupts play).

DM, after five minutes or so: okay, I'll allow it, but (creates house rule that prevents it from actually accomplishing anything meaningful in the game, so it's basically flavor)

Me: but that's not...whatever.

Paladin: okay, I crit with my smite, so the boss is dead.

I lol'd.

Kane0

2019-07-15, 03:52 PM

Sounds like you’ve had a poor experience using it, i’m sorry to hear.

Subtle also pairs well with twin/quicken because of its low cost relative to the other two.

Also, called it haha

/phone

Trickery

2019-07-15, 04:05 PM

I think Sorcerers will retain their high skill ceiling as long as their spell and Metamagic selection are both limited. All of the skill in using a Sorcerer comes from figuring out exactly what you're going to do, then how you're going to do it. Keep that mechanic, and the class will have a high skill cap no matter how it casts spells.

An aside about font of magic vs spell slots...

A Sorcerer who uses Font of Magic to create the sorcery points and spell slots they need does so at a loss, but only a 33-50% loss in total power when creating slots. If we assume Sorcerers blow away 40% of their spell slots in this way and use half (20%) of the gotten points to create spell slots, then they end up losing around 10% of their total power doing so.

It feels crapy to do and isn't exactly new-player friendly - can't do it in combat due to bonus actions, and can't do it too far ahead of time because you can never have more sorcery points at one time than your level. But it probably feels worse than it actually is.

That said, by my estimate, spell points probably change the way players play quite a bit, but probably only lead to about a 10-15% increase in actual power compared to FOM.

Something I'd be interested to see is what would happen if Sorcerers had spell points (or just simplified Sorcery Points, like I propose) and all full casters had access to Metamagic in some form - upcasting spells by one or two slots, for instance, or spending two spell slots to twin. That would be quite interesting.

Edit: typos, clarifications, phone

patchyman

2019-07-15, 04:41 PM

When it comes down to it, the way Sorcerer is right now feels like a hassle to play. That's why I'm in favor of changing him: to make him more fun.

To build on this very good post, unfortunately, some of the problems with Sorcerers go beyond low numbers of spells known and Metamagic being underwhelming.

Personally, I feel that many of the subclasses were poorly done (as much for fluff reasons as not), and since a sorcerer without Metamagic is a subpar wizard, their choice of spells is constrained by those that work well with the Metamagics chosen. Also, sorcerers are limited to very few Metamagics while Metamagics have greatly differing power, making Sorcerers even less fun to play.

patchyman

2019-07-15, 04:46 PM

Those that perceive the sorc as plenty good as-is usually cite specific metamagics such as subtle and twin in their arguments. Tackling those might lead to better discourse.

Choosing Metamagics is supposed to be a choice. Is a sorcerer who doesn’t take Twin competitive with a Wizard?

GeistInMachine

2019-07-15, 04:56 PM

Choosing Metamagics is supposed to be a choice. Is a sorcerer who doesn’t take Twin competitive with a Wizard?

Depends what spells the wizard takes.

There are plenty of examples of choices in class design that won't lead you to a great outcome.

But if we compare a wizard who makes good choices to a sorcerer that makes good choices, then a bad choice sorcerer should be compared to a bad choice wizard.

The conversation on how easy, impactful, or changeable the choices are is a different matter.

And depending on the build, a sorcerer that builds for a specific metamagic can be very strong even if they dont take a more popular one

Knowing how to use a metamagic is the higher degree of skill than knowing which ones are considered good. You need to design your spell list going forward with your chosen metamagics in mind

patchyman

2019-07-15, 05:26 PM

I think the number one issue with sorcerers is that a thematic sorcerer is a bad sorcerer
Any theme you put into your choices, further restricts the spellist.

I agree 100% with this, with the possible caveat that a Draconic fire or ice sorcerer can work as a thematic sorcerer.

Dr. Cliché

2019-07-15, 05:37 PM

I've heard this argument before, and I can see the rationale, and I'm not opposed to it. I tend to think that Wizards are classical Musicians, while Sorcerers are Jazz musicians. Metamagic is riffing, improvising on a spell. This is why I want the Sorcerer to know more Metamagic and have more interesting options.

See, if you really want Sorcerers to feel flexible, I think the solution would still be to ditch metamagic and to build them like the Mystic. Have them use spell points and choose Disciplines (rather than individual spells), which have scaling effects based on how any spell points you use. e.g. a fire Discipline might cast Scorching Ray (or something along those lines), but can then be scaled up to something akin to Fireball or even Meteor Swarm. Obviously it doesn't have to mimic those spells exactly, but the idea is fire powers that can be scaled/shaped according to the caster's needs.

Then we end up with the Pathfinder 2 Sorcerer, and I'm just not a fan of that implementation. I like a strong core class identity. When I evaluate the differences between the various arcane caster classes, it's a lot easier to ignore subclasses initially, because subclasses are additive, not transformative.

I normally agree, but I think Sorcerer should be an exception because its "subclass" is actually what defines the entire class. A Dragon Sorcerer isn't like a Necromancer-Wizard who's chosen to read up a bit more on Necromancy than other spell schools, rather, his magic is predicated entirely on his being descended from Dragons. It represents the whole of his magic - not just a small specialisation. Hence, I think the class design should reflect this by putting a greater emphasis on the subclasses.

patchyman

2019-07-15, 05:49 PM

But if we compare a wizard who makes good choices to a sorcerer that makes good choices, then a bad choice sorcerer should be compared to a bad choice wizard.

A sorcerer played from level 1 to 10 only gets 3 Metamagics, the last one at level 10. If he doesn’t choose Twin as a Metamagic at level 3, is he a bad Sorcerer?

As a thought experiment, I proposed a sorcerer who made a single bad choice (did not take the Twin Metamagic). Is their any single choice a wizard could make that could have an equivalent impact?

The point I was trying to make is that to be competitive with a wizard, you really have to lean into a small handful of builds (and for one of them, the blaster Sorcerer, the Evoker Wizard is arguably just as strong and more versatile) and if you don’t find those builds interesting, you are better off playing a wizard.

This is a shame, because the Sorcerer concept is fun (knows very few spells, can use them more flexibly than other casters).

ImperiousLeader

2019-07-15, 05:57 PM

Twin I can understand. It's something only the Sorcerer can do that can inform playstyle and create some cool effects.

Subtle - less so. It's great in theory, making you able to get away with casting spells on people in public, preventing your spells from being countered, and allowing you to cast spells while hiding. In theory.

I'm sorry you've had such a rough time with that. My experience is the opposite, my ability to cast spells invisibly has been quite useful, I've won counterspell wars that way, cast Subtle Suggestions ...

Mind you, I've had a good DM that even allows me to use Twin as written pre errata, so a Magic Missile with all missiles at one foe is Twinnable (I didn't ask for this, btw, my DM just allowed it).

Choosing Metamagics is supposed to be a choice. Is a sorcerer who doesn’t take Twin competitive with a Wizard?

I do consider Twin the best option available. It's not even really close. But I could see not taking it. A heavy blaster Sorcerer may not have many single-target spells. Empower, Quicken and Careful are better bets in those situations. And you do need to have spells that you can use Twin on.

The problem is that the others are way too situational or over costed. Heighten is too expensive especially for a single target, Extend and Distant are nice, but when you only learn 4 Metamagics over your whole career? Distant, in particular, there's not that many touch spells, and the doubled range isn't that great. Although I could see the Divine Soul making an argument for it.

Also, side rant, it annoys me that Empower is purely for damage spells, I'd broaden it to any dice rolled to determine the effect. Make it work with Sleep, for example. They had to add a feature to the Divine Soul Sorcerer to allow them to Empower Cure Wounds.

GeistInMachine

2019-07-15, 06:12 PM

A sorcerer played from level 1 to 10 only gets 3 Metamagics, the last one at level 10. If he doesn’t choose Twin as a Metamagic at level 3, is he a bad Sorcerer?

Depends on his spell choices and other metamagic

Did the Blaster take Empowered and Quicken? They will be just fine

Did the Controller or Social take Heightened and Subtle? Fine too

Did the Buffer not take Twin?
Yeah, probably a mistake, but if they are a Divine Soul, maybe they Extend Aid and Death Ward instead alongside Quicken

I could see things working if they didn't take Twin, Subtle, or Quicken, in certain builds

A Shadow sorc with careful and empowered, for example, may set up restraining disables with careful and their hound, then blast with empowered

Maybe a Divine Soul uses careful or empowered to control or blast, then extend for buffing.

The point is, i think most metamagics can be used to create strong builds, if you design around them. Treat metamagic like a secondary subclass.

My least favorite is Distant, but i could see niche uses if you built for it and were proactive using it

Kane0

2019-07-15, 06:28 PM

Okay, so we need some extra metamagic in here then!

2 MM @ lvl 3 (or 2 if you're playing around with SP and Font of Magic)
+1 @ lvl 5
+1 @ lvl 9
+1 @ lvl 13
+1 @ lvl 17
Total 6, and when you take a level in Sorcerer you can choose to swap one metamagic or spell known.

Accurate: 1 SP, adv on one attack roll as part of spell
Careful: 2 SP, Cha mod targets unaffected
Concussive: 1 SP, change damage to Force and targets reduced to 0 can be knocked unconscious instead of killed
Distant: 1 SP, double range or increase from touch to 30 feet, usable with other MM
Elemental: 0 SP, Change fire/cold/thunder/lightning to another type
Empower: 1 SP, reroll up to cha mod dice (any dice that aren't an attack roll or ability check), usable with other MM
Enlarge: 2 SP, double AoE
Extend: 1 SP, renew duration of spell
Heighten: SP=lvl, one target disadv on all saves against spell
Quicken: SP=lvl, bonus action cast
Secure: SP=lvl, spell immune to Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Remove Curse and you gain adv on Concentration to maintain it
Subtle: 1 SP, remove verbal/somatic components
Twin: SP=lvl, second target
Versatile: SP=2x lvl, change type of saving throw to another

Would have to adjust for spell points if you're going down that route however. You can just increase the cost but I prefer to remove the Sorcery Point pool entirely and use spell points to power both casting and MM, with some short rest recovery to avoid nova shenanigans.

Rukelnikov

2019-07-15, 07:06 PM

Having played a Sorlock from lvl 1 to 17 (no coffee), I gotta say MM is an extremely powerful feature, I only had Quicken and Subtle, but that was more than enough. I was the party's face were Subtle allowed me to cast with impunnity, and in combat adding another spell onto my Eldritch Blasts (more often than not another EB) Made it so that I dealt very good damage with minimal investment, just an invocation and a MM at my early lvls carried me to tier 4.

ImperiousLeader

2019-07-15, 07:24 PM

I found an old homebrew file that had some Metamagics in it, I might as well post them.

Persistent Spell
When casting a spell with Concentration that you only target yourself with the spell, you can spend 3 sorcery points to remove Concentration from the spell. You may still end the spell early as if you had ceased concentrating on it. If you cast another Persistent spell before a Persistent spell ends, the Sorcery point cost increases by 2 for every Persistent spell currently active. For example, if Hennet wants to cast a Persistent Fly spell, while he already has a Persistent Greater Invisibility and Persistent Alter Self cast on himself, he must spend 7 Sorcery points.

Piercing Spell
When casting a spell that deals Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning or Poison damage, you can spend 3 Sorcery Points. The spell deals additional damage equal to twice the level of the spell, and any creature affected by the spell, if they are resistant to that damage type, they lose resistance for this spell. If a creature is immune, they are considered resistant instead.

Explosive Spell
When casting a spell with an instantaneous duration and that affects an area, you can spend 1 Sorcery point to make any creature in the area and affected by the spell make a Strength saving throw. Creatures that fail their save are either moved 10ft away from the origin of the spell, or knocked prone (your choice).

Warding Spell
When you cast a spell, you may spend 2 Sorcery Points to gain a defensive ward. The ward lasts 1 minute, during which you may expend your ward as a reaction to gain one of the following effects:

You gain +4 to AC until the start of your next turn.
You gain advantage on the next saving throw you make.
You gain temporary hitpoints equal to your Charisma Mod + your Sorcerer level. You lose these hitpoints after 1 minute.

Corrupting Spell
Whenever you cast a spell that deals Necrotic, Psychic or Poison damage, you can spend 3 Sorcery Points. Any foe damaged by the spell must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, they have disadvantage on attack roles, ability checks and saving throws for 1 minute. A creature affected by this cannot be affected again for 24 hours.

GeistInMachine

2019-07-15, 07:29 PM

JNAProductions

2019-07-15, 07:41 PM

Secure: SP=lvl, spell immune to Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Remove Curse and you gain adv on Concentration to maintain it
Versatile: SP=2x lvl, change type of saving throw to another

Secure feels pretty OP.

Versatile is RIDICULOUSLY OP. Cast Hold Person as a Strength or Dexterity save (doable as soon as level 4) and if they fail the initial save, they're stuck until your spell ends.

TheUser

2019-07-15, 07:41 PM

A majority of my sorcerers have not taken twinned spell, however, a majority have taken subtle. I don't play with DM's who throw a fit over subtle spell.

The example of a DM throwing in detect magic/true sight/shenanigans + counter spells well...
If your DM is going to be a jerk and go all out to shut down one of your abilities you've built your class around then in reality it's not the ability that's bad is it? This sort of argument is broadly applicable to literally any ability.

I suppose it was poor form to come in and bash spell points without offering alternatives.

If your gripe is spells known then the best hotfix I've seen is swapping one spell known after a long rest instead of after a level up. It lets you have a level of flexibility where you can experiment with spells without stepping on the wizards toes.

The other really nice alternatives to fudging the base class are as follows:

-Taking the ritual caster feat. It's a whole plethora of utility spells which, if your group wouldn't normally have, is excellent for providing extra spells out of combat.

-The Magic Initiate(Sorcerer) Feat adds a level 1 spell and two more cantrips with a free level 1 cast of the spell per long rest. Because it's of the same class you can cast that level 1 spell using slots and as such have now boosted your spells known by 1.

-Drow Sorcerers can learn 3 useful spells with their racial Feat. Detect Magic at will and a free cast of Levitate and Dispel Magic can also free up slots for more Font of Magic conversion. I find that Detect Magic and Dispel Magic are universally useful and lovely to have so at the very least it's 2 useful spells known. Having played a Drow Sorcerer I can vouch for potency of the ability to cast 4 free spells per day, combined with have 3 extra spells known (Drow get a free Faerie Fire and Darkness cast once per day as well).

To those of you wanting to give 2 extra metamagics at 7 and 13; sorcerers don't exactly have the sorcery points or the number of different spells to really capitalize on it. They all draw from the same resource pool afterall. However, Xanathar's gave 2 really nice virtual metamagics; firstly, the tiefling racial feat Flame of Phlethegos acts like a less powerful but free empowered spell for fire spells (re-rolling 1's adds just under 0.5 damage per d6 on average), and secondly Shadow sorcerer's level 6 is arguably better than heightened spell for affecting multiple saves as well as being combineable with other metamagics.

If you start combining these things like making a Drow Divine Soul Sorcerer who takes Drow High Magic at 12 and Magic Initiate at 16 you've slapped on 5 extra spells during a period when Sorcerer spells really start to slow down. If you count the free daily cast of Faerie Fire and Darkness...well that's 22 different spells you can cast.

EDIT: MORE SOLUTIONS in the form of Items! Essentially items that provide slot power or the ability to cast or mimic spells.

-Hat of Disguise: Unfortunately requires attunement.

-Staff of [Insert Element], but my preferred is Fire: Not only does it give slot power by giving you free spells but also means you don't need to have those spells known either; more font of magic conversion and more spells known.

-Pearl of Power/Ring of Spell Storing: slot power.

Rukelnikov

2019-07-15, 08:41 PM

Kane0

2019-07-15, 08:59 PM

Trickery

2019-07-15, 09:00 PM

I wanna adopt the SP variant for sorcerers, but I'm unsure how to pair it with MC:

Do I make them go back to using slots, thus "punishing" MC Sorcs?
Do I let them keep SP thus making them a 1 lvl dip wonder?
Do I keep SP and slots apart? (I think this makes them even better MC, no high lvl slots but loads of low level ones, smite ahoy!)

Probably keep the systems separate such that the Sorcerer's points don't count as spell slots. It makes some sense thematically since Sorcery is the only magic that comes from within the character, and it's because of font of magic interacting with short rest spell slots that sorlocks are such a strong option. Weird things happen when different spellcasting systems combine.

Regarding Metamagic, what I personally did is add a free Metamagic to each Sorcererous origin, thus making the origins distinct and encouraging players to take them in specific directions.

Draconic: can change damage type of spells to your element.

Wild: can cast a Sorcerer spell you don't know CHA per day, immediately triggering Wild Magic Surge table roll.

Shadow: can see through spells you cast, such as Darkness or Fog Cloud, and don't need to concentrate on Darkness to maintain it.

Divine: whenever you spend Sorcery Points, can heal a creature you can see for damage equal to Sorcery Points spent.

Storm: immune to strong winds, and non-damaging weather. When you cast spells that cause strong winds, inclement weather, or lightning or thundering damage, can exclude areas and creatures from the effect at your discretion.

Kane0

2019-07-15, 09:22 PM

Secure feels pretty OP.

Versatile is RIDICULOUSLY OP. Cast Hold Person as a Strength or Dexterity save (doable as soon as level 4) and if they fail the initial save, they're stuck until your spell ends.
Subtle already makes the spell immune to counterspell, but you could make it more conplicated by forcing an ability check regardless of spell level, with disadvantage if they were anyway

Double slot level in cost, thats 4 SP to change a Hold Person to a Cha or Int save, with the usual concentration. Heighten would be cheaper for just disadvantage on the save.
Better balanced than the lore wiz at any rate eh?

ProsecutorGodot

2019-07-15, 09:29 PM

Subtle already makes the spell immune to counterspell, but you could make it more conplicated by forcing an ability check regardless of spell level, with disadvantage if they were anyway

Double slot level in cost, thats 4 SP to change a Hold Person to a Cha or Int save, with the usual concentration. Heighten would be cheaper for just disadvantage on the save.
Better balanced than the lore wiz at any rate eh?

The issue is that as soon as you can change Hold Person to a Str or Dex save then it becomes impossible for the target creature to break out, as the condition it causes makes them automatically fail those saving throws. Any Humanoid presented to the party would pose virtually no challenge. At 10th level any creature period can be made into a non issue.

Add a small dip into Divination Wizard (something that Lore Wizard couldn't do) and you can not only guarantee they can't escape the spells effects, you can also guarantee that they fail the first save.

It's not a mechanic that would be so simple to make work, heavy limitations would need to be applied.

paladinn

2019-07-15, 09:44 PM

Forgive me if this has been asked already; but what about allowing a sorc to use sorc points to upcast their spells? Sorcs can twin or quicken or cast subtly using sorc points; is there an option to simply use to upcast? That way they don't need to burn a higher level spell slot, or exchange their SP at an unfair rate of exchange (assuming they have to use spell slots).

I'm already campaigning to give sorcs bonus sp equal to their Cha bonus.

Kane0

2019-07-15, 10:17 PM

Would probably make for a good metamagic option yeah

bendking

2019-07-15, 11:40 PM

I think if I had to make a change to sorcerer, it would be in improving the ability to fix mistakes, and making the class friendlier to newer players

1.Have Metamagic be swappable on level up
2.Give a blurb for each metamagic on common spells that work with them
3. Modify the fluff to encourage avoiding spells with overlapping effects. Perhaps through describing how sorcerers could often become known for their control over a signature single spell, but still have a variety in their back pocket.
A big weakness of dragon sorcs for example is the fluff supports getting all the fire damage spells. Realistically you need maybe 2-3 to be an effective blaster, yet still having other spells to cover mobility or other weaknesses and situations

First off, I must say I wrote quite a detailed and thought it (if possiblity erroneous) response to your earlier comment, and I would be quite curious to read your thoughts on it :)
Other than that, those are solid suggestions indeed.

Having played a Sorlock from lvl 1 to 17 (no coffee), I gotta say MM is an extremely powerful feature, I only had Quicken and Subtle, but that was more than enough. I was the party's face were Subtle allowed me to cast with impunnity, and in combat adding another spell onto my Eldritch Blasts (more often than not another EB) Made it so that I dealt very good damage with minimal investment, just an invocation and a MM at my early lvls carried me to tier 4.

Well, yeah, Sorlock is strong. Straight Sorcerer is more tricky.
In general Sorcerer is a very powerful MC class, but less so when single-classed. That's a problem.

A majority of my sorcerers have not taken twinned spell, however, a majority have taken subtle. I don't play with DM's who throw a fit over subtle spell.
The other really nice alternatives to fudging the base class are as follows...

I don't know, I think if you have to shore up the classes problems with feats & magic items, perhaps your better off changing the class to begin with.
See my above comment on balancing a classs around super high-skill players beind a bad idea anyway.

I wanna adopt the SP variant for sorcerers, but I'm unsure how to pair it with MC:

Do I make them go back to using slots, thus "punishing" MC Sorcs?
Do I let them keep SP thus making them a 1 lvl dip wonder?
Do I keep SP and slots apart? (I think this makes them even better MC, no high lvl slots but loads of low level ones, smite ahoy!)

I would either make them go back to using Spell Slots, or make SP a whole different thing, like Pact Magic. I kind of like this idea better, though I'm not sure how balanced it is in practice.

GeistInMachine

2019-07-16, 01:09 AM

Indeed, and while a Social God Sorcerer with Subtle Spell can break social encounter, that's about all he can do (that's hyperbole, of course, but there's truth to it).
That's one problem with Subtle Spell which I don't see mentioned too often. Sure, you can not pigeon hole yourself into spells that work best with Subtle Spell, but then your not as effective as a social master.
And besides, what if you don't want to be that role? That is literally the Sorcerer's most powerful niche.You're left with trying to be a good blaster with Empowered & Quickened to channel Sunbeam or whatever while blasting away.
So we're left with the conclusion that unless you want to be a social engineering god or a blaster (which arguably isn't better than a straight Evoker), you should play Wizard.
I don't think that's an indication of a well designed class, nor what people want when they want to play Sorcerer.
The class fantasy to me sounds like a caster who doesn't know many spells, but is very effective and flexbile with them. The reality of the Sorcerer is that he is very effective only when specializing, and isn't all that flexible.

While Social God is certainly the sorcerer's most unique role, I don't think its its strongest. At least, its unreliably strong, as its best in a more social campaign.
Blaster I think is actually Sorcerer's weakest build; primarily because being a blaster is just one of the weaker roles for a caster.

I think Sorcerer's strongest role is very counter-intuitively a Buffer. Primarily because you are doubling the effectiveness of any buff spell with twin. And then, a premier buffer build of a divine sorcerer takes Extend Spell to use with Aid and Death Ward, meaning you can spend any spare slots at the end of a day, or at the end of downtime, to have party wide HP and Death Ward buffs for the next adventuring day. Optimizing for Concentration here becomes very strong, and is easy to get reliable. Now you use Twin Haste or Polymorph or Greater Invis to be essentially two buff casters in combat.
Unfortunately, the class fluff really does not lend itself to this play-style.

Second strongest role I consider is the Controller. Its commonly accepted a controller wizard is the best wizard; its similar for a sorcerer. The difference is where the Wizard has the right tools for the job, a sorcerer has a few, stronger tools they can use to brute force control. The main toolsets here are Careful Spell, and Heightened Spell (or preferably, a Shadow Sorcerer's hound). Careful spell i think gets a bad reputation because it sounds similar to Sculpt spell, but its application is entirely different: Its sculpt spell for any control spell, not damage. So where a Wizard may take Slow to avoid friendly fire, a control sorc can use Hypnotic Pattern or Fear with impunity, as they remove friendly fire. It ends up making everything affect more enemies in a fight. A Shadow Sorc in particular, can also use a Hound on the same turn. Now, you have a combat where the mooks all get hit with an effect that the party ignores, and the big enemy of the encounter has disadvantage on their save at the same time.

I think in general too, that a sorcerer's playstyle is more efficient than a Wizards due to the Con Save proficiency. Less concentration spells going down means less spells cast over a day. I've seen a lot of people compare Arcane Recovery to Font of Magic, but they don't take into account that a sorcerer has the ability to stretch their spells further. And any Wizard that takes Res-Con or Warcaster is behind an entire Feat or ASI compared to a Sorcerer

This feels like an accurate assessment indeed. I don't know if there is a simple solution to this problem. It may very well be that a power bump is simply necessary.
I feel like the system I proposed in previous comments is a good power bump that isn't overly powerful, in that it makes lower-skilled players make use of Font of Magic more (since it's now compulsory) while not letting you nova super hard.

I will concede that in the hands of a high-skill Sorcrerer player and with the changes in mind, the class will be very powerful. But then again, so are a bunch of other builds when trying to.
Wizard in the hands of a high-skill player is also pretty broken. So is Sorcadin. Or just a straight Paladin, for that matter.
Is it that bad to buff a Sorcerer to a level which only high-skill players can break it? I think the answer is no, since there are already a bunch of ways to break the game.
Balancing around high-skill players in a PvE game is pretty bad form anyway, and I would argue isn't the philosophy of 5E's (nor D&D's) design (and if it is, it doesn't achieve that goal), since it's an inherently unbalanced game.
To summarise, I think if we can balance the class to be on-par with Wizard in terms of power level for most players, we should try for it. High skill players will optimize the crap out of anything anyway, and trying to balance around them is mostly going to take the fun out of the class for most other players, as polls regarding Sorcerer's power level and player satisfaction seems to be suggesting for a long time now.

I think there are varying degrees of power here. Wizards become broken with Preptime, because they have the spell flexibility to create many varying longterm or permanent effects, and bring them all to bear. But there is a degree of control from the DM with how much preptime they get, what materials they get, and how much cheese the DM allows.

I feel a Sorcerer is probably the single strongest in-the-moment caster, besides maybe a level 20 moon druid. And what i mean by that is a properly built sorcerer can often be performing with basically doubled effectiveness with a combination of Twin and Quickened, off the bat, with no preptime. The abilities they can bring to bear with metamagic are also more clear cut than the spell combinations that a Wizard can work with, and so fly at more tables.
That's why i offered some ideas on how the class fluff is presented, to make the class more accessible. Because i think there is a lot of really cool mechanics to sink one's teeth into, but its very opaque for newcomers. So I don't think just bumping the power levels up enough that a sorcerer is strong even un-optimized is healthy, as it raw power really overshadows the cool things a sorcerer can do with good system mastery. I think it may lead to players just using the easy way to a strong character that is ultimately less fulfilling because they have less meaningful choices

TheUser

2019-07-16, 05:39 AM

I don't know, I think if you have to shore up the classes problems with feats & magic items, perhaps your better off changing the class to begin with.
See my above comment on balancing a classs around super high-skill players beind a bad idea anyway.

I'd agree with your sentiment if I didn't think a handful of other classes were also held up by feats (especially fighter).

GWM and Sharpshooter in particular keep a majority of martials relevant by letting them fill a single target damage niche that otherwise leaves their single target damage contributions very similar to a caster (with the exception of the Paladin who can smite to stay relevant, and the Monk for forcing a boss to burn legendary resistance, but both of which require melee to do so).

If you want a strong analagous example of a caster hoisted up by feats; playing an illusionist without Keen Mind is -much- more difficult.

I think that WotC has done an excellent job of establishing an array of classes that reward different levels of research/system mastery with things like the Champion Fighter and Barbarian in the lower end of the spectrum while Sorcerers and certain Wizards, reside on the higher end of the learning curve.

The overwhelming sentiment to buff sorcerers because people percieve them as weak does not sit well with me; mostly because I have seen players other than myself, overwhelmingly succeed with the class. Buffing something that already performs so well, only because of the perceptions of the majority, seems counter intuitive to me (mob justice so to speak). This is doubly so with regards to implementing spell points, not only because it is a sideways solution to the biggest gripe the community holds (spells known) but also because it is pretty obvious the design team not only considered it but went ahead and implemented a toned down version of it in order to keep the class balanced. I really can't underscore this enough.

I can also appreciate that D&D is becoming more mainstream and so the notion of this ultra unforgiving caster class that is behind a skill wall is probably not in the best interest of the health of the game. And having it be the only class with metamagic must be doubly frustrating.

The irony here, of a self-proclaimed new player, assuming that the class is broken, based on the conjecture of a survey (filled out by people, who in many cases, have also reserved strong opinions despite only reading the class description), wanting to implement sweeping class changes before actually trying a less profound chand ....presents some interesting optics. (This is my polite way of saying "it's not a good look").

If you want to improve your sorcerer experience, I reccommend having a baseline to work with first.

This board and the community's complaints are not unfounded, but it might serve you (bendking) better to reserve judgement after actually at least playing the base class EDIT: with minimal changes to help find and address those pain points.

Adding +1 spell known per tier of sorcerer level combined with the ability to swap 1 spell per long rest is by far the most effective at addressing those pain points while keeping the sorcerer from dwarfing other casters, not spell points.

bendking

2019-07-16, 05:50 AM

This board and the community's complaints are not unfounded, but it might serve you (bendking) better to reserve judgement after actually at least playing the base class to help find and address those pain points.

What are you talking about? I'm playing the class right now.

bendking

2019-07-16, 06:21 AM

While Social God is certainly the sorcerer's most unique role, I don't think its its strongest. At least, its unreliably strong, as its best in a more social campaign.
Blaster I think is actually Sorcerer's weakest build; primarily because being a blaster is just one of the weaker roles for a caster.

I think Sorcerer's strongest role is very counter-intuitively a Buffer. Primarily because you are doubling the effectiveness of any buff spell with twin. And then, a premier buffer build of a divine sorcerer takes Extend Spell to use with Aid and Death Ward, meaning you can spend any spare slots at the end of a day, or at the end of downtime, to have party wide HP and Death Ward buffs for the next adventuring day. Optimizing for Concentration here becomes very strong, and is easy to get reliable. Now you use Twin Haste or Polymorph or Greater Invis to be essentially two buff casters in combat.
Unfortunately, the class fluff really does not lend itself to this play-style.

The Sorcerer can be an excellent buffer, but buffs aren't always the best solution. In most cases, the net gain you can get from debuffing a bunch of enemies is much greater than Hasting a couple of teammates (action economy-wise, at least).
Twin Spell is strong, but buffing isn't the be-all-end-all in D&D.

Second strongest role I consider is the Controller. Its commonly accepted a controller wizard is the best wizard; its similar for a sorcerer. The difference is where the Wizard has the right tools for the job, a sorcerer has a few, stronger tools they can use to brute force control. The main toolsets here are Careful Spell, and Heightened Spell (or preferably, a Shadow Sorcerer's hound). Careful spell i think gets a bad reputation because it sounds similar to Sculpt spell, but its application is entirely different: Its sculpt spell for any control spell, not damage. So where a Wizard may take Slow to avoid friendly fire, a control sorc can use Hypnotic Pattern or Fear with impunity, as they remove friendly fire. It ends up making everything affect more enemies in a fight. A Shadow Sorc in particular, can also use a Hound on the same turn. Now, you have a combat where the mooks all get hit with an effect that the party ignores, and the big enemy of the encounter has disadvantage on their save at the same time.

Indeed, a Sorcerer can main Hypnotic Pattern + Careful Spell, though I highly doubt most DM's will put up with it because Hypnotic Pattern is a broken (not to mention anti-fun for both the party and th DM) spell, and will eventually play around your BS. When the second best thing a class can do is exploit an already broken spell, you have a problem. Otherwise you can use Fear, but who wants to be casting 3rd level spells for the entire career?

Compare this to the Wizard who has a hell of a lot more options (especially in higher levels) and isn't confined so a highly specific play-style... We end up with the Sorcerer only being good as a specializer, and even then he isn't that much better than a Wizard that specializes in those areas (except for Subtle Spell, which like we agreed on isn't all that effective for most games).

TheUser

2019-07-16, 06:58 AM

What are you talking about? I'm playing the class right now.

Oh wow, sorry, early morning errors. Intended to say "Better served playing the base class with minimal changes..."
Which is to say the +1 spells known per tier buff and/or swapping 1 spell per short rest, which I view as less dramatic a change than implementing spell points.

Master O'Laughs

2019-07-16, 08:00 AM

I think in general too, that a sorcerer's playstyle is more efficient than a Wizards due to the Con Save proficiency. Less concentration spells going down means less spells cast over a day. I've seen a lot of people compare Arcane Recovery to Font of Magic, but they don't take into account that a sorcerer has the ability to stretch their spells further. And any Wizard that takes Res-Con or Warcaster is behind an entire Feat or ASI compared to a Sorcerer

Where as if a sorcerer wants ritual caster to do resource-less magic, they have to take the ritual caster feat.

Nagog

2019-07-16, 10:09 AM

I'd like to think it surprising that someone who's never experienced playing the class would have no humility with regards to their own opinions but frankly I'm unfazed.

It's funny because your bias over the issue coupled with a lack of actually having played the class is quite apparent; you've listed sorcerer as having only metamagic compared to the numerous features of other classes but completely gloss over Font of Magic as a feature.

I look forward to your no doubt nuanced opinions on a class you've never played let alone a variant casting system you've never experienced while playing that class.

As I said, I've DMed for quite a few sorcerers, so my "Lack of experience" with the class is an unfounded statement that only makes you sound like a whiny 12 year old who can't let go of their pride to listen to new information.
As for the point on Font of Magic, this change to the class is to boost Font of Magic. As is, it's woefully underpowered compared to other similar class features, as is stated by Trickery:

Want to address this one point. This is inaccurate. At level 10, a Sorcerer can use its full set of Sorcery points to create one 5th and one 2nd level spell slot, a total of 7 levels worth of spells. A 10th level wizard can recover 5 levels worth of spell slots on a short rest just using Arcane Recovery. Land Druids copy that feature with their Natural Recovery. And of course there's the Divination Wizard who can recover a spell slot every time they cast a 2nd level or higher Divination spell. If we include that on top of Arcane Recovery, Divination Wizards easily cast more spell slots worth of spells per day than the Sorcerer does, and that's before we count rituals.

So I'm curious to know what you mean by flexible. If you mean flexibility in terms of Metamagic, then yes - Sorcerers are the only class that gets Metamagic. However, if you're talking about Font of Magic, then what has the Sorcerer accomplished? By giving up all of his Sorcery Points and thus his Metamagic, he can get slightly ahead of some spell casters and behind others in terms of spell slots. In exchange, he doesn't get the Wizard's spell list or superior spells known or ritual casting, doesn't get the druids armor or wildshaping or extra hit points, doesn't get the bard's incredible class features and higher hp and ability to steal spells from other classes' spell lists...

I don't think anyone would seriously argue that Sorcerers are fine how they are. They don't have flexible casting compared to other spellcasters, and they only have one feature worth mentioning. Font of Magic is really good if you take Warlock levels, but I've seen so many DMs (online, at least) who flatly don't allow that multiclass. And, if a class needs multiclassing in order to be good, then is that really a good class? I don't think so. But I see a lot more excitement about Sorcadins, Sorlocks, and even Sorbards than I ever do about plain Sorcerers. Every now and then, someone has a clever idea about how to use some Metamagic, and that's about it as far as excitement about the class goes.

So, as an overview of the past few posts, I've given reasons why Metamagic alone is good but not great (or entirely unique), reasons this update could finally push Sorcerers out of Wizards' shadow, and various ways this could adjust playstyle in comparison with other casters. You have played only a shoddy defense, then resorted to attempting to attack me personally saying I have no experience with the class (a statement founded on a one-dimensional statement clipped from a larger statement in which I elaborated that I have DMed for plenty of sorcerers, all of which have had issues with the class competing or even keeping up with other spellcasting classes. So... Do you have a valid point to make or are you just going to continue throwing your tantrum that anybody would dare want to play a Sorcerer that works differently from yours?

ImperiousLeader

2019-07-16, 10:34 AM

Where as if a sorcerer wants ritual caster to do resource-less magic, they have to take the ritual caster feat.

True, but first, there's not really many rituals on the Sorcerer's list anyway. Also, IME, all one would have to give the Sorcerer an edge without actually giving them ritual casting is simply give them Detect Magic at will. Because 95% of the rituals cast in my campaigns are Identify and Detect Magic.

Master O'Laughs

2019-07-16, 10:55 AM

True, but first, there's not really many rituals on the Sorcerer's list anyway. Also, IME, all one would have to give the Sorcerer an edge without actually giving them ritual casting is simply give them Detect Magic at will. Because 95% of the rituals cast in my campaigns are Identify and Detect Magic.

With the ritual caster feat you would just pick wizard as the class to get all of their rituals.

patchyman

2019-07-16, 11:50 AM

I think Sorcerer's strongest role is very counter-intuitively a Buffer. Primarily because you are doubling the effectiveness of any buff spell with twin.

I agree that Buffer/Debuffer is probably the Sorcerer’s strongest role, and I would add, in support of your point regarding counterintuiveness, that none of the subclasses (from a fluff perspective) really suggest specialization in Buff/Debuff spells.

Trickery

2019-07-16, 11:55 AM

I agree that Buffer/Debuffer is probably the Sorcerer’s strongest role, and I would add, in support of your point regarding counterintuiveness, that none of the subclasses (from a fluff perspective) really suggest specialization in Buff/Debuff spells.

You could argue that the divine soul sort of suggests a support role. However, that's mostly due to it gaining access to the cleric spell list - which is a ridiculously good feature as far as Sorcerer subclasses go, but I digress.

Bobthewizard

2019-07-16, 12:43 PM

GeistInMachine

2019-07-16, 01:03 PM

You could argue that the divine soul sort of suggests a support role. However, that's mostly due to it gaining access to the cleric spell list - which is a ridiculously good feature as far as Sorcerer subclasses go, but I digress.

Unfortunately i think it suggest a Healing Role, which is not really a great role for any class. I see a lot of divine soul discussions suggesting distant cure wounds and revivify, which i think are really trap options. Revivify especially is such a tax for a spell you barely use. Ideally a sorcerer should be being proactive to avoid people going down.

So yes, buffing is 'support' but i dont think its the first thing implied by divine soul, especially since the in combat buffs all remain sorcerer spells

Trickery

2019-07-16, 01:22 PM

If I were playing another caster I would think it unfair to allow sorcerers to use spell points but not other classes.

I don't think you should buff sorcerer at low to mid tier at all. Wizards are more versatile and better at their chosen school, but with metamagic, sorcerers are more effective across their spell list. Until level 13, sorcerers are more powerful than wizards. At 13, when wizards get force cage and simulacrum, they overtake sorcerers.

And then, more importantly, the low number of spells added after level 11 really hurts high level sorcerers. If I were to buff sorcerers, I would change their spells known to one per level + 1 extra at 1st. This wouldn't affect them until level 12 but would help them keep up with wizards after that.

In 3.5e, nobody considered Sorcerers overpowered compared to Wizards and Clerics, despite Sorcerers being the only casters that could cast any spell they knew from any available slot. Everyone else had to load spells into specific slots during a long rest. Despite requiring more planning in that regard, the other spellcasters were considered better.

In 5e terms, you could say that Sorcerers used to have spell points while everyone else didn't, because the effect was basically just that. Yet they were the weakest of the casting classes by many people's judgment even then.

Now, Sorcerers are still considered the worst. The difference is that they don't have the comparative flexibility that they once did - unless you count Font of Magic, which you shouldn't considering that you lose 33-50% of your power by utilizing it. Instead, Sorcerers have Metamagic as their defining feature.

This is the worst situation for everyone. When 5e first launched, other casters were mad that only Sorcerers got Metamagic and wanted the class removed from the game. Sorcerers, meanwhile, were livid that they could only use Quicken once per day at level 3, and that things didn't get much better until after level 10 or so. They were more livid when they realized that they couldn't Quicken a fireball and throw another fireball, or even twin one, because of some ridiculous rules that seemed specifically designed to nerf Sorcerers. And Sorcerers were even angrier still when they realized that the best way to play their class was to use it as a dip for a Warlock or Paladin.

You have it backward. It's levels 10+ that Sorcerers can act as actual specialists in a limited sort of way. Playing a pure Sorcerer prior to about level 7 is a chore, with every other caster being much more capable on a consistent basis - especially clerics and druids at extreme low levels.

One thing most people don't realize about Metamagic is that is doesn't add raw power in the way that wildshape, channel divinity, bardic inspiration, or ritual casting do. All of those features are additional things the spellcaster can do on top of casting spells at no additional cost.

The Sorcerer's Metamagic is not added on. Sorcerers must spend their existing resources to use it. It's the same as a fighter picking up a new weapon - they have another option, but must choose which weapon to attack with. And Sorcery points, in terms of converted spell value, are only a little bit stronger than the Wizard and Land Druid's short rest recovery features. So that isn't much in the way of added power, either.

Spell points wouldn't add raw power, either. But they would add flexibility - flexibility that would be about on-par with the Wizard knowing twice as many spells but having the same number of castings of them.

Spell points for Sorcerers and Metamagic for everyone is the ideal solution. Sorcerers regain their identity, and everyone gains interesting features to play with - features that cost resources and thus add flexibility without adding raw power.

Bobthewizard

2019-07-16, 02:03 PM

You have it backward. It's levels 10+ that Sorcerers can act as actual specialists in a limited sort of way. Playing a pure Sorcerer prior to about level 7 is a chore, with every other caster being much more capable on a consistent basis - especially clerics and druids at extreme low levels.

I think we must have different experience with sorcerers. In one of my current games, for example, we're at level 6. My wizard is more versatile out of combat but the dragon sorcerer in my party is better at combat. She does more damage with fireball, can Twin a spell like suggestion, and can use Careful to cast hypnotic pattern or fear right on top of the frontline. My divination wizard usually but not always has one low portent role to make someone fail a save. While I have more spells known and ritual casting, she has a high Charisma which for us comes up much more than intelligence, and has proficiency in constitution saves. I don't think she needs any buffs at this point. As we plan out our higher level spells, though, it looks like there is a significant drop-off between wizard and sorcerer. Maybe metamagic will make up for even that though.

I agree that Clerics and Druids are more powerful than Sorcerers and Wizards before level 5.

ImperiousLeader

2019-07-16, 03:14 PM

You know, I'm in favour of Spell Points for only Sorcerers if that nerfs or disincentives the dip into the Warlock.

Trickery

2019-07-16, 03:15 PM

I think we must have different experience with sorcerers. In one of my current games, for example, we're at level 6. My wizard is more versatile out of combat but the dragon sorcerer in my party is better at combat. She does more damage with fireball, can Twin a spell like suggestion, and can use Careful to cast hypnotic pattern or fear right on top of the frontline. My divination wizard usually but not always has one low portent role to make someone fail a save. While I have more spells known and ritual casting, she has a high Charisma which for us comes up much more than intelligence, and has proficiency in constitution saves. I don't think she needs any buffs at this point. As we plan out our higher level spells, though, it looks like there is a significant drop-off between wizard and sorcerer. Maybe metamagic will make up for even that though.

I agree that Clerics and Druids are more powerful than Sorcerers and Wizards before level 5.

If you were playing an Evocation Wizard, you could do most of the things that Sorcerer is doing in combat but better. Evokers can drop evocation AoE spells without hitting their allies, the difference being that they can do so for free and the effect lasts more than one round. Evokers also do more damage with Fireball.

But you're a Diviner. That's the strongest Wizard subclass. Have you forced the boss to fail his save versus Polymorph yet?

There's nothing stopping Wizards from having high CHA if that's a thing you want. Sorcerers don't get any special expertise.

She has Con saves, but you have Wis saves. Wisdom saves come up about as often and is generally more devastating to fail. If you're a Wizard and you're getting hit trying to concentrate on your spells, you probably should be playing more carefully. And you can always take a feat for that. You may count this as a "feat tax," but consider what will happen to your Sorcerer the first time she fights something resistant to fire. That sort of Sorcerer also has a "feat tax."

Level 6 is also right around the time that Wizard rituals start to really take off. If you're using your rituals as often as you should be, you should be casting about 1.5 times as many spells per day as the Sorcerer, especially if she's using very much Metamagic. Detect Magic and Identify are two extremely commonly used spells starting at level 1 in my experience, and it only gets better from there for the Wizard.

Like you said, experiences differ. However, for the sake of comparing the two, I assume that we're comparing like to like rather than comparing this specific build to that specific build in a specific campaign. Because, obviously, if your campaign is all about social encounters followed by big fights with no puzzles, traps, traveling, or strange dungeon features to deal with, then the blaster-face is going to do well.

Monster Manuel

2019-07-16, 04:38 PM

I had a weird thought about how to balance out Spell Points for sorcerers. I haven't really thought it through beyond the very initial stages, so I have no idea if this helps balance out the boost that SP casting would give to Sorcerers or not, but it might be an interesting intellectual exercise.

So, in 3.5 the Sorcerer came about in order to have a spontaneous arcane caster that didn't have to prepare specific spells in specific slots, and now in 5E, that's the universal mechanic for all casters. So, what if we reversed the roles, and made sorcerers the prepared casters in 5E?

So, they get Spell Points for spells on top of the SP they get for Metamagic. BUT, instead of using the SP to prepare spell slots, they have to prepare specific spells. You're not spending 5 SP to prep a 3rd level slot, you're spending 5 SP to prep a Fireball. Any remaining SP can be spent on the fly on metamagic, as per normal.

So you get the flexibility of SP devoid of any arbitrary limits on slots. But you're locked into the spells you prepared. For a well-built sorcerer, this may not hurt as much as for other casters; you have so few spells known, you can probably make a good guess as to what you'll be casting in a given day. And if you guess wrong, and you didn't need that Dispel Magic spell you prepped, you can still use Font of Magic to eat it and recoup some of the SP.

Like I said, I haven't dug very deep into this idea to see if it's viable, or playable, but I thought it was an interesting bit of theorycrafting...

GeistInMachine

2019-07-16, 04:40 PM

If you were playing an Evocation Wizard, you could do most of the things that Sorcerer is doing in combat but better. Evokers can drop evocation AoE spells without hitting their allies, the difference being that they can do so for free and the effect lasts more than one round. Evokers also do more damage with Fireball.

But you're a Diviner. That's the strongest Wizard subclass. Have you forced the boss to fail his save versus Polymorph yet?

By this logic, a Controller sorcerer is going to outperform a Diviner.

If you played a control sorc, you could do most of the things a diviner wizard could but better. Careful spell can drop crowd control AOE spells without hitting their allies, the difference being that they can do so for negligible cost and they can use careful spells round after round. Control sorcs can also give disadvantage on an enemy's save to a hypnotic pattern

Or causes a few bosses per day to fail their saves vs polymorph using heightened spell or a Hound of Ill Omen

Nagog

2019-07-16, 05:07 PM

Trickery

2019-07-16, 05:16 PM

By this logic, a Controller sorcerer is going to outperform a Diviner.

If you played a control sorc, you could do most of the things a diviner wizard could but better. Careful spell can drop crowd control AOE spells without hitting their allies, the difference being that they can do so for negligible cost and they can use careful spells round after round. Control sorcs can also give disadvantage on an enemy's save to a hypnotic pattern

Or causes a few bosses per day to fail their saves vs polymorph using heightened spell or a Hound of Ill Omen

There are a lot of control options, and spells in general, that Wizards get but nobody else does. Additionally, portent is often a guaranteed failure whereas disadvantage is a more likely failure - still not very likely unless you target a weak save, which is why Heighten is an unpopular option - it's expensive. Notably, portent is added on top of the Wizard's spellcasting. Sorcerers eat into their Sorcery Points by using Metamagic, points they would have used to get more spell slots otherwise (similar to Arcane Recovery, which is free).

Speaking of extra spell slots, the Diviner Wizard is the one that gets to recover a spell slot when it uses a Divination spell. That's a big deal.

That said, if I wanted to build a Wizard controller, I'd build an enchanter. They can Twin some spells for free starting at 10 and can use a feature to take out a target without using concentration or even casting a spell. Sorcerers can't do that.

But, even with these features, the major draw of the Wizard is their sheer number of spells known and the many rituals they can cast. It's hard to express on paper why and how this is good. When we compare two classes, we normally come up with a scenario and explain how they might use their features to resolve it. We can talk about how a 5th level Sorcerer can use Fireball to AoE a group, or Gaseous Form to get out of a bad situation or even scout, or Counterspell to beat an enemy caster. The problem is that a Sorcerer can't have all of those spells at level 5; they have to give up another spell known just to get two of them. The Wizard automatically learns two spells every level and can get new ones from scrolls, libraries, and enemy spellbooks.

The biggest difference between a Wizard who's a controller and a Sorcerer who's a controller is that the Wizard isn't just a controller. The Wizard can take as many control spells as the Sorcerer has spells known and still have more spells left over than the Sorcerer knows.

But, again, I'm not trying to make Sorcerers more powerful, to fix their shortcomings, or to make them competitive with the Wizard. Rather, I'm trying to fix their identity crisis. I want Sorcerers to be different from Wizards to as high a degree as possible.

Sorcerers are supposed to be the source of their own magic, but that doesn't express itself at all in their spellcasting. Forget Metamagic for a moment as Sorcerers can't afford to use it on most of the spells they cast. How does a Sorcerer cast a spell? The same way a Wizard or Cleric or Bard or Druid does. That doesn't make sense. Those classes gain their spells through learning or are given them. They have to follow someone else's rules.

Sorcerers shouldn't. They cast spells from their own power. It doesn't make sense for that power to express itself in a specific configuration of spell slots. And they shouldn't need several rounds and a lot of lost power just to change that configuration.

GeistInMachine

2019-07-16, 05:22 PM

The difference between these two is that Heightened Spell just gives disadvantage, which lowers their chance to succeed at the save, but the chance is still there. Div Wizards can guarantee it, while also using those pre-destined dice to guarantee a hit (or pretty darn close to it). Also, Careful Spell only guarantees they succeed the save, which means you should only use it for non-damaging spells, otherwise those allies will still be taking damage. So while essentially they do the same thing, they also should not/cannot be used on the same spells. All in all, Controller Sorc probably could not out-perform a Diviner. While their control spells can use Careful Spell, the expanded Wizard Spell List and the superiority of Arcane Recovery to Well of Magic simply doesn't compare.

The difference between these two is that Heightened Spell gives disadvantage, which lowers their chance to succeed at the save, and can be done multiple times. Div Wizards can guarantee it if they are lucky with their rolls maybe once per day, or also using those pre-destined dice to come close to making a hit. Also, Careful Spell uniquely guarantees they succeed the save, which means you are able to use it use it for non-damaging spells! Otherwise those allies will still be making saves against your control AOE. So while Sculpt Spell sounds similar, Careful spell can be used on the more tactically powerful control spells. All in all, Controller Sorc probably could out-perform a Diviner. Their control spells can use Careful Spell, the expanded Wizard Spell List and Arcane Recovery compares poorly to Well of Magic and the battlefield flexibility of metamagic.

patchyman

2019-07-16, 05:36 PM

BUT, instead of using the SP to prepare spell slots, they have to prepare specific spells. You're not spending 5 SP to prep a 3rd level slot, you're spending 5 SP to prep a Fireball. Any remaining SP can be spent on the fly on metamagic, as per normal.

I think a simpler system may be the one I proposed. As part of the Font of Magic class feature, at the end of a long rest, while the clerics and wizards are choosing their spells, you create the spell slots you will use during the day (without possible waste) with the leftover being sorcery points.

If you miscalculated, during the day you can create SP and spell slots using the existing (less efficient) Font of Magic rules.

You get more flexibility than the Wizard, but without the unlimited flexibility of the spell point system. More importantly, you approach to magic feels different from the wizard and the warlock. Plus this mitigates the downside of your limited spells known, as you can, for example, not take any level 2 spells and simply never create level 2 slots.

GeistInMachine

2019-07-16, 05:41 PM

But, even with these features, the major draw of the Wizard is their sheer number of spells known and the many rituals they can cast. It's hard to express on paper why and how this is good. When we compare two classes, we normally come up with a scenario and explain how they might use their features to resolve it. We can talk about how a 5th level Sorcerer can use Fireball to AoE a group, or Gaseous Form to get out of a bad situation or even scout, or Counterspell to beat an enemy caster. The problem is that a Sorcerer can't have all of those spells at level 5; they have to give up another spell known just to get two of them. The Wizard automatically learns two spells every level and can get new ones from scrolls, libraries, and enemy spellbooks.

The biggest difference between a Wizard who's a controller and a Sorcerer who's a controller is that the Wizard isn't just a controller. The Wizard can take as many control spells as the Sorcerer has spells known and still have more spells left over than the Sorcerer knows.

I think this just isnt the right way to look at it

In any combat encounter, the amount of spells a sorcerer and wizard can bring to bear is about the same. Anything talking about more spells is talking about out of combat utility or planning flexibility. But the wizard on not using their entire book in any one combat

A wizard is not going to have Fireball, Gasseous form, and Counterspell at 5 either, because its only 2 spells per level, and they cant swap

A sorcerer evolves their spellist over time. A Wizard takes burning hands and has it forever, but stops preparing it at level 5. A sorcerer basically does the same thing: swapping it out for a bigger gun
Any flexibility of possibly preparing burning hands again is easily replicated by the flexibility of metamagic

So wizards will always have this problem, that they get spells and never use them again once they are outgrown

While wizards are the horders of the spell world, Sorcerers are the Marie Kondos of spellcasters. If the Spell doesn't give you joy, throw it away.

This ends up meaning that the number of actually usable combat spells between the classes is pretty similar. And when Metamagic makes spells behave more flexibly, you don't need several similar spells for slightly different situations. You run lean with your versatile spells, and have plenty of room for utility or movement spells.

Nagog

2019-07-16, 05:50 PM

The difference between these two is that Heightened Spell gives disadvantage, which lowers their chance to succeed at the save, and can be done multiple times. Div Wizards can guarantee it if they are lucky with their rolls maybe once per day, or also using those pre-destined dice to come close to making a hit. Also, Careful Spell uniquely guarantees they succeed the save, which means you are able to use it use it for non-damaging spells! Otherwise those allies will still be making saves against your control AOE. So while Sculpt Spell sounds similar, Careful spell can be used on the more tactically powerful control spells. All in all, Controller Sorc probably could out-perform a Diviner. Their control spells can use Careful Spell, the expanded Wizard Spell List and Arcane Recovery compares poorly to Well of Magic and the battlefield flexibility of metamagic.

There are a lot of control options, and spells in general, that Wizards get but nobody else does. Additionally, portent is often a guaranteed failure whereas disadvantage is a more likely failure - still not very likely unless you target a weak save, which is why Heighten is an unpopular option - it's expensive. Notably, portent is added on top of the Wizard's spellcasting. Sorcerers eat into their Sorcery Points by using Metamagic, points they would have used to get more spell slots otherwise (similar to Arcane Recovery, which is free).

Speaking of extra spell slots, the Diviner Wizard is the one that gets to recover a spell slot when it uses a Divination spell. That's a big deal.

That said, if I wanted to build a Wizard controller, I'd build an enchanter. They can Twin some spells for free starting at 10 and can use a feature to take out a target without using concentration or even casting a spell. Sorcerers can't do that.

But, even with these features, the major draw of the Wizard is their sheer number of spells known and the many rituals they can cast. It's hard to express on paper why and how this is good. When we compare two classes, we normally come up with a scenario and explain how they might use their features to resolve it. We can talk about how a 5th level Sorcerer can use Fireball to AoE a group, or Gaseous Form to get out of a bad situation or even scout, or Counterspell to beat an enemy caster. The problem is that a Sorcerer can't have all of those spells at level 5; they have to give up another spell known just to get two of them. The Wizard automatically learns two spells every level and can get new ones from scrolls, libraries, and enemy spellbooks.

The biggest difference between a Wizard who's a controller and a Sorcerer who's a controller is that the Wizard isn't just a controller. The Wizard can take as many control spells as the Sorcerer has spells known and still have more spells left over than the Sorcerer knows.

But, again, I'm not trying to make Sorcerers more powerful, to fix their shortcomings, or to make them competitive with the Wizard. Rather, I'm trying to fix their identity crisis. I want Sorcerers to be different from Wizards to as high a degree as possible.

Sorcerers are supposed to be the source of their own magic, but that doesn't express itself at all in their spellcasting. Forget Metamagic for a moment as Sorcerers can't afford to use it on most of the spells they cast. How does a Sorcerer cast a spell? The same way a Wizard or Cleric or Bard or Druid does. That doesn't make sense. Those classes gain their spells through learning or are given them. They have to follow someone else's rules.

Sorcerers shouldn't. They cast spells from their own power. It doesn't make sense for that power to express itself in a specific configuration of spell slots. And they shouldn't need several rounds and a lot of lost power just to change that configuration.

Just thought I'd tie these two together for you Geist. Also, I have no idea how or why you think Font of Magic is better than Arcane Recovery, because while they have essentially the same function, Arcane Recovery is much more powerful, and I have no idea what the downside of having a larger spell list is. Like, "Oh no, I have access to more spells and I can change what spells I have prepared on a daily basis? I'm sorry that's just far too much customization for me. Obviously Wizards are inferior due to their greater versatility."
To be quite frank, it appears you copied and pasted my message and changed a few words here and there without doing any of the proper research.

GeistInMachine

2019-07-16, 06:07 PM

To be quite frank, it appears you copied and pasted my message and changed a few words here and there without doing any of the proper research.

That's exactly what I did; It just seemed to be an unsubstantiated argument, so i just flipped the direction the claim went in, because it makes just as much sense.

To me, that's what the original text seemed like, claims without proper research that overstate the pros of the wizard and undersell the pros of a sorcerer

I did the same with Trickery just before
The arguments he was using to put Evoker over a Blaster sorc would be the incredibly similar points that put a control sorc over a Diviner

"Oh no, I have access to more spells and I can change what spells I have prepared on a daily basis? I'm sorry that's just far too much customization for me. Obviously Wizards are inferior due to their greater versatility."

And i'm not making this argument
Obviously more spells is better than less spells

But in practical terms, a wizards's prepared spellist is going to be 90% the same day-to-day. So then a Sorcerer, having more flexibility per spell, pulls even with the combat versatility by having 2 metamagic paired spells with the versatility of 3 spells, and have an extra spell left over to just have a spell known all the time that a wizard may choose to swap in.
Im arguing its basically a wash in practical terms for combat.
Then with Sorcerer metamagic allowing a sorcerer to do more per turn in combat, the improved combat efficiency takes up the class power budget that ritual casting does for wizards

TheUser

2019-07-16, 06:08 PM

... I have no idea how or why you think Font of Magic is better than Arcane Recovery....
Funny because I kind of think the exact opposite:

One requires a short rest, the other does not.
One can only give you 1 extra 5th level slot until level 19, the other can give you as many 5th level slots as you're willing to dump into it.
One is free, the other costs points but comes with enough free points per day to match or overtake it...

..I have no idea what the downside of having a larger spell list is. Like, "Oh no, I have access to more spells and I can change what spells I have prepared on a daily basis? I'm sorry that's just far too much customization for me. Obviously Wizards are inferior due to their greater versatility."
This argument is not being made in good faith; he clearly is saying that once you get to higher tiers of play with access to better spells using your actions or higher level slots on the lower level spells a wizard would not really use means they are quintessentially useless and just taking up space in the spell book and as such not much of a factor; or did you plan on preparing and casting burning hands as a level 9 wizard?

Nagog

2019-07-16, 06:10 PM

I think this just isnt the right way to look at it

In any combat encounter, the amount of spells a sorcerer and wizard can bring to bear is about the same. Anything talking about more spells is talking about out of combat utility or planning flexibility.

I'm starting do doubt you know how Wizard's Spellcasting works. A wizard essentially has 2 spell lists: a huge one that they have access to prepare each day (their spellbook), and the spells from the larger list that they prepare. If the Wizard prepared Magic Missile and Burning Hands for their 2 1st level spells, they can cast either one as many times as they have spell slots, not as many times as they prepared it for. It's extremely versatile and they can change their spells prepared based on where they're at (Having a list of Prepared Spells for when they're out in the wild in case of combat, or when they plan on staying in town, or when they're exploring, etc). They aren't limited by the spells they chose when they leveled up, and they have just as many spell slots as a Sorcerer.

A wizard is not going to have Fireball, Gasseous form, and Counterspell at 5 either, because its only 2 spells per level, and they cant swap

While you're right that they cannot swap, they can indeed have all 3 at level 5 if they found a spellbook or a scroll with such a spell on it. A Wizard can have spells in his spellbook that they don't have slots for yet, but it's uncastable until they have the proper slots for it.

A sorcerer evolves their spellist over time. A Wizard takes burning hands and has it forever, but stops preparing it at level 5. A sorcerer basically does the same thing: swapping it out for a bigger gun
Any flexibility of possibly preparing burning hands again is easily replicated by the flexibility of metamagic.

So wizards will always have this problem, that they get spells and never use them again once they are outgrown

This isn't true in all cases, in fact it's only true in very few cases. While Burning Hands can be replaced with twinned Fire Bolt, nothing you can twin or otherwise do with metamagic will ever replace spells such as Magic Missile, Sleep, or Feather Fall. The party finds themselves stranded on a very high and very steep mesa. The Wizard has Feather Fall in his spellbook, but did not prepare it. No matter, the party can spend the night there and he'll prepare it tomorrow. The Sorcerer used to have Feather Fall, but swapped it out to take Scorching Ray at a later level. Oops. I guess the party can grind for EXP here until they level up, then the Sorcerer can swap back to Feather Fall for the party.

While wizards are the horders of the spell world, Sorcerers are the Marie Kondos of spellcasters. If the Spell doesn't give you joy, throw it away.

This ends up meaning that the number of actually usable combat spells between the classes is pretty similar. And when Metamagic makes spells behave more flexibly, you don't need several similar spells for slightly different situations. You run lean with your versatile spells, and have plenty of room for utility or movement spells.

Ooooor, you simply use a versatile spell in different ways, and learn from your experience. You see the problem with hoarding is the space consumption. It never hurts to be prepared for anything, and as a Wizard, you could feasibly have the entire Wizard spell list in your spellbook and it would be none the heavier for it. Sorcerers would still be stuck at their maximum spells known, and once it's gone, you need to wait for a long time to get it back, at the cost of some of your scaling up power. It simply doesn't compare.

GeistInMachine

2019-07-16, 06:13 PM

Nagog

2019-07-16, 06:56 PM

Funny because I kind of think the exact opposite:

One requires a short rest, the other does not.
One can only give you 1 extra 5th level slot until level 19, the other can give you as many 5th level slots as you're willing to dump into it.
One is free, the other costs points but comes with enough free points per day to match or overtake it...

This argument is not being made in good faith; he clearly is saying that once you get to higher tiers of play with access to better spells using your actions or higher level slots on the lower level spells a wizard would not really use means they are quintessentially useless and just taking up space in the spell book and as such not much of a factor; or did you plan on preparing and casting burning hands as a level 9 wizard?

I mean sure you could cycle all your spells through Font of magic by converting them to points and back, but you'd end up losing a lot of your points and slots in the process. The whole point of this thread is to boost that system and use it exclusively for spellcasting, which I feel is a wonderful way to make the Sorcerer stand out from the other spellcasting classes.

As for having Burning Hands prepared at 9th level, hell yeah I would. It's basically a shotgun blast of fire damage, perfect for using on minions that break through the front line of tanks and martial classes.

But to bring this whole convoluted argument back to the topic at hand (I swear this thread gets off topic more frequently than my players do), I think this variant rule is a wonderful way for Sorcerers to stand out more as a class and as a playstyle.

And before you go attacking this (again), please not the use of the word "Variant". Like Variant Humans, they are not mandatory, in fact, they're simply another option. If you feel this Variant Rule is too OP for you to handle DMing, disallow it. I'm not here to tell you how to run your games or play your characters, I'm here to analyze, provide insights from my experience playing and DMing 5e, and provide feedback. As for me and my games, I'd definitely allow my players to choose this style of spellcasting instead of spell slots, and if the DM allowed it, I'd love to play a sorcerer in this fashion myself. If you have feedback relating to this system and it's pros and cons, feel free to share them and contribute to the OP's question. If not, don't. If you wish to further discuss the various differences between Sorcerers and Wizards and argue which is better, feel free to create your own thread to discuss that.

Ok, now that that's done, Here are my thoughts on this fix:

1. This rule allows the power scaling of Sorcerers to be more consistent, with a flat slope rather than suddenly rising in power at certain spell levels (3, 5, 8, etc.).

2. This allows the Sorcerer to more freely use their Metamagic abilities, as instead of having to use a bonus action to convert their unused spell slots to points when they run low, it's automatically all there and ready to go, freeing up your bonus action for other things, like a Quickened Spell.

3. Sorcerers, with this tweak, feel more like Sorcerers of lore. Jafar, from Aladdin, summoning a sandstorm, growing to giant size, and banishing Aladdin to the far reaches of the earth. All very powerful stuff, and that's only the stuff Aladdin was there for. Would Jafar bother with something like Magic Missile? Probably not. but would he cast like 4 Fireballs? You better believe he would. This tweak allows Sorcerers to either Nova or slow burn, depending on their situation. Allows them the flexibility they've lost over the years.

Corran

2019-07-16, 11:39 PM

I think Sorcerer's strongest role is very counter-intuitively a Buffer..
...
Second strongest role I consider is the Controller.
While I wouldn't necessarily say that one is better than the other for a sorcerer, I too think that these are the two areas where a sorcerer can do best in combat.

Blaster I think is actually Sorcerer's weakest build; primarily because being a blaster is just one of the weaker roles for a caster.

I don't think that blasting is a bad option for casters (unless you are talking about single target blating, in which case I agree). AoE damage can solve many problems, and sometimes it can even be the best course of action and the way you go about winning an encounter. Lacking the ability to make it party friendly means that a sorcerer should not bet their tactics on it, because without having relative control over initiative and positioning (ie factors on which sculpt spell blasting does not have to rely on, at least most of the time), AoE blasting wont be reliable. Even evokers will be better off not relying exclusively on damage AoE for dealing with may foes. Usually damage AoE will be what you'll be using instead of a cantrip, after you cast an appropriate concentration spell with which you plan help your side win.

The Sorcerer can be an excellent buffer, but buffs aren't always the best solution. In most cases, the net gain you can get from debuffing a bunch of enemies is much greater than Hasting a couple of teammates (action economy-wise, at least).
Twin Spell is strong, but buffing isn't the be-all-end-all in D&D.

Buffing wont always be the strongest option, but it will always work well. How well? That mostly depends on what your allies are playing. That's the good thing about buffing. That you'll never be out of a suitable course of action with it. While if you go with battlefield control or debuffing, then you have to find contingencies for when you are facing enemies with strong saves and/or resistances, and the sorcerer's limited number of known spells makes that harsh. So, in short, buffing isn't always the best, but it always works well (assuming you have the allies for it).

You have it backward. It's levels 10+ that Sorcerers can act as actual specialists in a limited sort of way. Playing a pure Sorcerer prior to about level 7 is a chore, with every other caster being much more capable on a consistent basis - especially clerics and druids at extreme low levels.
Funnily enough, I think sorcerers are at their best around these levels. Comparing to wizards for a moment, yes, wizards are going to have all the delicious out of combat utility they want and a lot more spells to prepare, but I think that when combat starts, the sorcerer will be the strongest caster (unless some rare enough cases where you are facing an encounter which a wizard spell can fit perfectly). Comparisons aside though, I find the interaction between spells and metamagic at its strongest during these levels. But later on, this doesn't keep up. Wizards start getting better and better spells than the sorcerer can get, and the interaction between higher level sorcerer spells and metamagic is lacking. Or at least I think that it is lacking, perhaps someone more creative than me has found something exciting that I don't know about.

Which brings me to what I think is missing from the class. Better high-ish and high level spells. I'd love some unique, and why not, sorcerer exclusive spells, designed around each and every metamagic for the 10+ level play.

Trickery

2019-07-17, 12:40 AM

This is such a strange thread. We have people arguing that Wizards aren't all that good, that having more than twice as many spells known isn't all that useful, that consuming two third level slots to create one fourth level slot is somehow something the Sorcerer should be excited about doing, that levels 10+ (when Sorcerers actually have a good number of sorcery points) are actually the Sorcerer's weakest levels...

What is going on?

Spell Diversity: an Evoker wizard has tricks that are comparable to what a blaster Sorcerer will do and has the same spells. However, the Evoker also has additional spells, and he has more of those additional spells than the Sorcerer has spells at all. This is true at every level. The Wizard also has many spells that the Sorcerer can't know.

Spells do not have fixed value. A fireball is a lot more useful when there are lots of enemies to hit than when there's just one. Similarly, there are cases where Enemies Abound is better than Hypnotic Pattern. Having the right spell for the job at hand is a big deal. Wizards are more than twice as likely to have the right spell for the job even assuming they don't find a single spell scroll or book over their entire career.

Consuming slots to create slots: you lose power in the process. If you didn't, this would be a good ability to have. As is, it's sometimes useful, but usually it isn't. You lose power in order to gain a relatively small amount of flexibility, and players know better than to sacrifice power. More often, players consume spell slots so they can use more Metamagic. I can consume a third level slot to twin a third level slot - that makes sense. So why do I have to consume a third level slot and a second level slot to make a third level slot?

People are saying the Sorcerer's limited spell list past level 6 is a big weakness for the class at later levels. I want to stress that the spell list isn't the problem - it's spells known.

The Sorcerer only knows fifteen spells by max level. Fifteen! And they can't create slots of levels 6+ meaning they can't spam these spells. If a Sorcerer is stupid enough to waste more than one spell known on each spell level past 5, what are they going to do with their other slots?

No wonder their spell list is so small.

Sorcerers have enough spells known to know two spells each of levels 1-5 and one each of levels 6-9. If a a Sorcerer is smart, they won't stray too far from that configuration lest they prematurely run out of usable slots.

Now, we can potentially just change that. We can give Sorcerers three spells known at first level and one more per level up all the way to 20, bringing the total to 23. Wouldn't that be better? Not exactly. That just makes the Sorcerer closer to being a Wizard. It's better for the class mechanically, but they lose their identity in the process.

Spell points, on the other hand, would allow the Sorcerer to diversify their spell selection (perhaps taking two first level spells and three fourth level spells and none at levels 2 or 3, etc.) without running out of usable slots or having to lose power converting slots.

The Sorcerer's identity is being a specialist. We should focus on ways to make them a better specialist, not on ways to make them more like a wizard.

But half the people in this thread seem to be doing the opposite. They make a big deal out of anything the Sorcerer can do that rhe Wizard can't while underselling all of those things the Wizard can do. The same people oppose features like spell points that would make the Sorcerer more distinct, but promote features like more spells known that would make the Sorcerer more like a Wizard.

The Sorcerer is already too much like a Wizard. We should be going in the other direction.

Kane0

2019-07-17, 01:14 AM

I'm not sure how long you've been lurking here Trickery, but some prior reading may be in order if you're up for it:
Just another Sorcerer Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?587078-Just-another-Sorcerer-Thread)
Why Ever use Sorcerer? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571807-Why-Ever-use-Sorcerer)
The Sorcerer & Warlock frustrate me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?546548-The-Sorcerer-amp-Warlock-frustrate-me)
I don't get the Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?538605-I-don-t-get-the-Sorcerer)
Sorcerer: the most unsatisfying class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?534114-Sorcerer-the-most-unsatisfying-class)
Why do people hate the sorcerer? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493063-Why-do-people-hate-the-sorcerer)

Corran

2019-07-17, 02:11 AM

... that levels 10+ (when Sorcerers actually have a good number of sorcery points) are actually the Sorcerer's weakest levels...
The sorcery points are there, but you are lacking substantial interactions between them and your higher level spells as far as I can tell. Wizards get better spells during all levels of play, but early on I have to show some things in response (stuff like twinning a haste or using a careful hypnotic pattern). It doesn't matter that wizards will have a bigger arsenal and better spells, because I can specialize enough to be the best in a couple of things that actually make for some very effective tactics. But as I level up more and more, I am stuck with the same mid level tricks. And I wouldn't say that they are bad, even for high level play, but imo they don't make up for all the strong spells a wizard starts getting, not to mention that they get a plethora of them. Sorcerers are great specialists in buffing and debuffing at early/mid level play, but then they stop getting spells that synergize significantly well with metamagic, or so I think. So they start lagging behind. If that's the case (and I say if, because there could very well be such combos that I haven't thought or heard of), then the solution would be to get some higher level spells that work well with the various metamagic options. Bottom line, metamagic options is not a bad idea (imo) to set the sorcerer apart from other casters, and their design is not bad for the most part (again, imo). But you need to have spells to make metamagic work, and metamagic has to work well for the sorcerer to be [enter the word of your preference].

People are saying the Sorcerer's limited spell list past level 6 is a big weakness for the class at later levels. I want to stress that the spell list isn't the problem - it's spells known.
I disagree. And that's because...

The Sorcerer's identity is being a specialist. We should focus on ways to make them a better specialist
… to do that, we need strong combinations between metamagic and spells across the various levels of play. If there is a problem at higher level play, the easiest way to fix it, is by designing new spells (with the intention of having said new spells work well with metamagic) and adding them to the sorcerer's list.

bendking

2019-07-17, 06:02 AM

Spell Diversity: an Evoker wizard has tricks that are comparable to what a blaster Sorcerer will do and has the same spells. However, the Evoker also has additional spells, and he has more of those additional spells than the Sorcerer has spells at all. This is true at every level. The Wizard also has many spells that the Sorcerer can't know.

Spells do not have fixed value. A fireball is a lot more useful when there are lots of enemies to hit than when there's just one. Similarly, there are cases where Enemies Abound is better than Hypnotic Pattern. Having the right spell for the job at hand is a big deal. Wizards are more than twice as likely to have the right spell for the job even assuming they don't find a single spell scroll or book over their entire career.

Well put. I perceive this to be one of the biggest disadvantages of the Sorcerer. Because of your limited spells known you will often not have much to do other than concentrating on a spell.
Let's take this 10th level Sorcerer spell list built in mind with the Spell Points system and see what it can do. Keep in mind I tried pretty hard to have a spell for every occasion (only for battle of course, because the Sorcerer doens't have space for more than one or two utility spells).
Seperated by '|' to indicate different levels, metamagics are Twin, Empowered & Quickened:
Shield, Mage Armor | Mirror Image, Blindness/Deafness | Haste, Slow, Counterspell | Storm Sphere, Polymorph | Synaptic Static, Hold Monster
All first three spells are spell tax a Sorcerer should take to not die, and Counterspell is another spell tax unless you already have it in the party. This is without Absorb Elements & Dispel Magic which some also consider must-have spells, because I just couldn't fit them in this list. Already we have 4 whole spells known taken out of our 11 spells known, and gave up another two amazing spells.

Continuing, we have Blindness/Deafness to be able to cast something while concentrating. Next is Haste for buffing, Slow for debuffing when enemies are intermingled with allies, Storm Sphere for when enemies are not intermingled with our allies. Polymorph is a general utility and combat spell which a Sorcerer should probably take considering its flexibility, Synaptic Static is our one blasting spell, and Hold Monster is our single target boss killer. Notice how after concentrating on of our concentration spells tailored to a specific situation, we can either cast Synaptic Static when enemies are separate from allies or upcast Blindndess when intermingled. Nothing else.

Also, this spell list was built with Spell Points in mind, so I could afford not having other blasting spells other than Synaptic Static. Otherwise, I probably should have kept Fireball and give up another spell out of this already tight list.
Perhaps someone can build a better spell list than this, but I think this stresses the point pretty well. There aren't that many non-concentration spells a Sorcerer can afford, and even the ones he does have to be extremely general.

A Wizard, on the other hand, can easily afford all these spells and more, getting Absorb Elements, Misty Step, Shatter, Blindness, Dispel Magic, Erupting Earth, Invisibility, Magic Missile, Lightning Bolt, etc.
All of these are non-concentration spells the Wizard can easily pick up while levelling up. Of course, he can't take all of them (though with a non-stingy DM, he can), but even half of them would give him a bunch more options in combat than my Sorcerer has. Even though the Sorcerer can be more effective with the spells he has, he is much more likely to not have an appropriate spell to cast. In my opinion Metamagic doesn't make up for even one turn in combat in which you're casting a cantrip while a Wizard could have cast a different spell.

… to do that, we need strong combinations between metamagic and spells across the various levels of play. If there is a problem at higher level play, the easiest way to fix it, is by designing new spells (with the intention of having said new spells work well with metamagic) and adding them to the sorcerer's list.

This is also true. It comes out that most cool metamagic combinations happen with 3rd-5th level spells, which you don't want to be casting your entire career.

EDIT: Just to further my point, let's see how many non-concentration spells a Wizard has in comparison to the Sorcerer to pick from:
Sorcerer (https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells?filter-class=0&filter-class=6&filter-search=&filter-level=1&filter-level=2&filter-level=3&filter-level=4&filter-level=5&filter-verbal=&filter-somatic=&filter-material=&filter-concentration=2&filter-ritual=&filter-sub-class=), Wizard (https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells?filter-class=8&filter-search=&filter-level=1&filter-level=2&filter-level=3&filter-level=4&filter-level=5&filter-verbal=&filter-somatic=&filter-material=&filter-concentration=2&filter-ritual=&filter-sub-class=). Would you look at that, the Wizard doesn't only know twice as much non-concentration spells than the Sorcerer, but can also pick from twice as many! And this isn't even counting the blatantly broken 6th & 7th level spells the Wizard can access which the Sorcerer can't.

TheUser

2019-07-17, 07:23 AM

bendking

2019-07-17, 07:50 AM

Your spell selection skills need serious work.

I swear, you are really bad at being polite. Let's discuss human interaction for a moment (probably more important than fixing the Sorcerer).
You could have said "this spell list isn't optimal", or "I wouldn't say that's a good representation of a diverse spell list", or a plethora of other things other than directly insulting my "spell selection skills". It seems you have a tendency to, and have done so quite a few times just in this thread, to subtly/not-so-subtly attack people whom you discuss with.
That sentence literally contributes nothing to the discussion. I can't fathom any reason pertaining to the efficacy of the discussion to include it. I also can't say why did you include it and won't be guessing why, but I thought I'd let you know you make discussing with you unpleasant, which can easily both demotivate discussion and cause the discussion to derail. Not to mention it's just a **** move.

On to the relevant part of your post.

If you're going spell points you can even leave an entire level of spells empty. I would highly suggest level 2 with the metamagics you've chosen (unless your DM allows Twinned Dragon's Breath).

No, you can't, because no character starts at level 10. This is a spell-list was made from the ground up.

Slow gets 2-3 rounds unless you are level 13+ (when your DC is 18).

What debuff doesn't, except for the broken Hypnotic Pattern?

Took empower but no fireball?

I took Synaptic Static instead of Fireball. No need to have two blasty spells with Spell Points.

Twin but no Greater Invis?

You can just as well replace Haste with Greater Invisibility. It's not a big deal.

Quicken hardly interacts with any of the spells you've opted for and even has counter synergy with Storm Sphere.

This build picks up Quicken at level 10, so I wasn't going to build an entire spell-list from the ground up just for a metamagic the PC picks up at level 10.

What subclass did you have in mind?

Wild Magic Sorcerer, which Storm Sphere synergizes extremely well with as a dump for Tides of Chaos (which is why I took it over Wall of Fire).

You're more than welcome to build a spell progression from level 1 to 10 to argue against the point I was making (which you haven't even approached in your comment, instead choosing to badmouth my spell selection which I acknowledged wasn't perfect).

Composer99

2019-07-17, 08:21 AM

bendking

2019-07-17, 09:01 AM

I crunched some numbers, and here are some spell slots totals:

Thanks, this is quite useful! However I wouldn't burn the Sorcerer's Sorcery Points which he starts in for the sake of the comparison, since realistically you'd like to use those for your Metamagic.

Justin Sane

2019-07-17, 09:14 AM

I crunched some numbers, and here are some spell slots totals:Thanks for that. My DM has been slightly miffed with our group's Mystic, saying "he casts too much", so it's nice to have concrete evidence on how it compares to a Bard or a Warlock.

Not that the Mystic does not have other issues, mind, but at least this helps us decide what to nerf - and Spell / Psi Points won't be it.

Composer99

2019-07-17, 10:17 AM

Thanks, this is quite useful! However I wouldn't burn the Sorcerer's Sorcery Points which he starts in for the sake of the comparison, since realistically you'd like to use those for your Metamagic.

Oh, I agree. I was just figuring out the maximum number of spell slots a sorcerer could create for the sake of comparison.

TheUser

2019-07-17, 10:32 AM

-snip-

Yeah my forum decorum needs work.
I don't view D&D system mastery as something to pride oneself on so I don't see it as a slite on someone when they aren't particularly experienced at it. Not trying to insult.

However you can have a level 2 void; as you level up you can swap 1 spell every level up. So by level 10 it's easy to have a void.

bendking

2019-07-17, 10:59 AM

Yeah my forum decorum needs work.
I don't view D&D system mastery as something to pride oneself on so I don't see it as a slite on someone when they aren't particularly experienced at it. Not trying to insult.

However you can have a level 2 void; as you level up you can swap 1 spell every level up. So by level 10 it's easy to have a void.

I appreciate you owning up to it.
Anyway, I'd like to see you make a spell list progression to counter my original point, ideally for a regular Sorcerer. But a Spell Point one could also be nice, just to see the difference.

Oh, I agree. I was just figuring out the maximum number of spell slots a sorcerer could create for the sake of comparison.

Right, I just though I'd mention that it's fair including it as well for the sake of the Sorcerer, but I can't tell you what to do with your spare time :)

GeistInMachine

2019-07-17, 11:14 AM

Let's take this 10th level Sorcerer spell list built in mind with the Spell Points system and see what it can do. Keep in mind I tried pretty hard to have a spell for every occasion (only for battle of course, because the Sorcerer doens't have space for more than one or two utility spells).
Seperated by '|' to indicate different levels, metamagics are Twin, Empowered & Quickened:
Shield, Mage Armor | Mirror Image, Blindness/Deafness | Haste, Slow, Counterspell | Storm Sphere, Polymorph | Synaptic Static, Hold Monster

I'm going to agree with TheUser here, this list is pretty unfocused. You seem to be trying to cover all your bases, but in doing so are not really leveraging the strengths of a sorcerer
To be frank, i can see why you may consider sorcerers needing spellpoints if this is your go-to build.

First off, you said in another comment this is a wild magic sorc, so lets work with that.
Wild magic is best suited to a Control build using Bend Luck. I do usually consider Sorcerers having room for a secondary role, but you are stretching this build across Blast, Control, and Buff. Lets focus on a Control with secondary Buffer for fights where legendary resists come into play

I find it odd you use Empowered here with only one full blast spell, so instead we take Careful spell. Twin and Quickened are fine

1st: Shield, Mage Armor, Absorb Elements

Mirror Image is just too much of an action economy cost here, Absorb Elements is going to be much more effective at reducing damage in the long run.

2nd: Blindness/Deafness
Though a Con Save, having a non conc Debuff is the right idea

3rd: Haste, Counterspell, Hypnotic Pattern

Now that we have careful, we can upgrade to a stronger CC without worrying about hurting allies

4th: Polymorph, Dimension Door

Storm Sphere is just going to be a far worse use of our concentration than our control or buff spells, so lets replace it with DDoor for escapes or mobility. . Polymorph is of course a switch hitter control and buff spell

5th: Synaptic Static, Telekinesis

I'm fine keeping Synaptic here, but we don't empower it, but instead use it as a non conc control spell with a respectable damage rider

Grabbing Telekinesis because it combos really well with Quicken, either giving two shots to grab one creature, or grabbing two creatures in a turn, and is a control spell we can use against creatures with legendary resistances. Also lasts 10min, which can be several combats. Even works with Bend Luck

Level progression:

1: Mage Armor, Sleep
2: Shield
3: Web
4: Misty Step | Sleep -> Blindness/Deafness
5: Hypnotic Pattern | Web -> Absorb Elements
6: Haste
7: Polymorph
8: Dimension Door | Misty Step -> Counterspell
9: Synaptic Static
10: Telekinesis

As you can see, some spells go through musical chairs, but in general we are removing obsolete spells and replacing them with more useful ones.

bendking

2019-07-17, 11:18 AM

This is most likely inaccurate, since I just reduced the higher level slots, but just thought I'd include this one to be a bit more fair to the Sorcerer.

Sorcerer burning slots via Font of magic and maximising higher-level slots without using starting Sorcery Points

Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
1
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
1
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
0
0
4
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
0
0
5
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
0
0
0
4
-
-
-
-
-

8th
0
0
0
5
-
-
-
-
-

9th
0
0
1
0
5
-
-
-
-

10th
0
0
0
1
6
-
-
-
-

11th
0
0
0
0
6
1
-
-
-

12th
0
0
0
0
6
1
-
-
-

13th
1
0
0
0
6
1
1
-
-

14th
0
1
0
0
6
1
1
-
-

15th
0
1
0
0
6
1
1
1
-

16th
0
0
1
0
6
1
1
1
-

17th
0
0
0
1
6
1
1
1
1

18th
0
0
0
0
7
1
1
1
1

19th
0
0
0
0
7
2
1
1
1

20th
0
0
0
0
7
2
2
1
1

bendking

2019-07-17, 11:20 AM

I find it odd you use Empowered here with only one full blast spell, so instead we take Careful spell. Twin and Quickened are fine.

Like I said, this was made with Spell Points in mind, so you don't need more than one full blast spell. Fireball was replaced earlier in this progression.
This was the full progression, which I understand needs some work, but just for you to see.

1 - Mage Armor, Sleep
2 - Mage Armor, Shield, Sleep
3 - Mage Armor, Shield | Web, Scorching Ray
4 - Mage Armor, Shield | Web, Scorching Ray, Mirror Image
5 - Mage Armor, Shield | Web, Mirror Image | Fireball, Haste
6 - Mage Armor, Shield | Mirror Image | Fireball, Haste, Slow, Counterspell
7 - Mage Armor, Shield | Mirror Image | Haste, Slow, Counterspell | Storm Sphere, Vitriolic Sphere
8 - Mage Armor, Shield | Mirror Image | Haste, Slow, Counterspell | Storm Sphere, Vitriolic Sphere, Polymorph
9 - Mage Armor, Shield | Mirror Image | Haste, Slow, Counterspell | Storm Sphere, Polymorph | Synaptic Static, Hold Person
10 - Shield, Mage Armor | Mirror Image, Hold Person | Haste, Slow, Counterspell | Storm Sphere, Polymorph | Synaptic Static, Hold Person

A few things:
1. I see Wild Magic Sorcerer as a blaster/controller type, with buffing on the side (when all else fails).
I won't go too much into detail why, but you can read this fantastic guide (https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468899-GUIDE-Playing-Dice-with-the-Universe-A-Slant-Guide-to-Wild-Magic-Sorcerer) that analyses the Wild Magic Sorcerer's role in combat well.
Basically, if you're just going to play her as a controller you're completely missing out on Tides of Chaos and the Wild Magic Surge features of the class, which is truly a shame.
With this role in mind, Storm Sphere make a whole lot more sense, being a perfect spell which you can dump your Tides of Chaos into to trigger Wild Magic Surge every turn (if your DM is reasonable and lets you trigger Wild Magic Surge after every 1st level and above cast after using Tides of Chaos).
2. Hypnotic Pattern is a broken spell. Really, it is. It's the most ridiculous save-or-suck spell with no saves in later turns and it's only at level 3. It's the Fireball of control spells, and easily overtakes 4th and 5th level controll spells (poor Confusion can't compete). As such, I don't really feel it's fair to take it on any caster, but that doesn't mean your spell list isn't effective, simply that I can't take it in good faith (nor will anyone in the party or the DM enjoy me using it), which is why I take Slow instead.
3. Point taken with Telekinesis. It makes much more sense than Hold Person which I wasn't that keen on anyway.
4. I agree with Blindness not being ideal, but I don't see a better choice.

Lastly, your spell list still demonstrates my point, which is that the Wizard has plenty of more options to cast besides Blindness & Synaptic Static in each battle, and is much more likely to have the right spell for the job, especially when already concentrating on a spell.

GeistInMachine

2019-07-17, 11:58 AM

A few things:
1. I see Wild Magic Sorcerer as a blaster/controller type, with buffing on the side (when all else fails).
I won't go too much into detail why, but you can read this fantastic guide (https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468899-GUIDE-Playing-Dice-with-the-Universe-A-Slant-Guide-to-Wild-Magic-Sorcerer) that analyses the Wild Magic Sorcerer's role in combat well.
Basically, if you're just going to play her as a controller you're completely missing out on Tides of Chaos and the Wild Magic Surge features of the class, which is truly a shame.

With this role in mind, Storm Sphere make a whole lot more sense, being a perfect spell which you can dump your Tides of Chaos into to trigger Wild Magic Surge every turn (if your DM is reasonable and lets you trigger Wild Magic Surge after every 1st level and above cast after using Tides of Chaos).

I agree, buffing isn't my first choice on a Wild Magic Sorc, mainly due to the chance to turn into a potted plant, but your initial example had more of a buff focus than a blasting one.

Even with that, this build has plenty of opportunities for Tides. Tides can give advantage on Concentration saves, which is very important.
Telekinesis is also a target for Tides, to up your ability check. It makes it very reliable when you can Tides your check and Bend the enemy's. Use Quickened at this point to recharge.

2. Hypnotic Pattern is a broken spell. Really, it is. It's the most ridiculous save-or-suck spell with no saves in later turns and it's only at level 3. It's the Fireball of control spells, and easily overtakes 4th and 5th level controll spells (poor Confusion can't compete). As such, I don't really feel it's fair to take it on any caster, but that doesn't mean your spell list isn't effective, simply that I can't take it in good faith (nor will anyone in the party or the DM enjoy me using it), which is why I take Slow instead

I think this is a very table dependant statement, at least i don't think its really a sentiment that should affect how strong a sorc is.
If you want an alternative, Fear also becomes more effective with Careful Spell

Lastly, your spell list still demonstrates my point, which is that the Wizard has plenty of more options to cast besides Blindness & Synaptic Static in each battle, and is much more likely to have the right spell for the job, especially when already concentrating on a spell.

Yes, Wizards are more likely to have a tool for the job, but variety is the strength of the wizard. We arnt trying to make a sorcerer a wizard, we should lean into them being specialists.
But in general, if a problem is a door, the wizard is the rogue that picks the lock
The Sorcerer is the barbarian that just knocks the door down

Yes the Wizard has more tools, but the brute force a sorcerer adds to their tools is enough to compensate and accomplish the same tasks. But then in the moment the sorcerer does have the right tool for the job, its going to be much more effective than the wizard.

patchyman

2019-07-17, 12:14 PM

A wizard is not going to have Fireball, Gasseous form, and Counterspell at 5 either, because its only 2 spells per level, and they cant swap

This is incorrect. Since wizards can copy spells to their spell books, they can have 3 level 3 spells in their spell book at level 5.

The point is relevant to the discussion because it is another little perk wizards get that sorcerers don’t have access to.

This ends up meaning that the number of actually usable combat spells between the classes is pretty similar. And when Metamagic makes spells behave more flexibly, you don't need several similar spells for slightly different situations. You run lean with your versatile spells, and have plenty of room for utility or movement spells.

Wizards also have more prepared spells each level than sorcerers have known, and they don’t have to prepare spells they can cast as rituals. Overall, wizards will always be able to prepare several more combat spells than sorcerers per day.

Trickery

2019-07-17, 12:19 PM

Yes the Wizard has more tools, but the brute force a sorcerer adds to their tools is enough to compensate and accomplish the same tasks. But then in the moment the sorcerer does have the right tool for the job, its going to be much more effective than the wizard.

That would be true if we had 3.5e metamagic. However, Metamagic is much less powerful this edition.

Extend is nothing compared to Persist of the past. Persist made the spell last all day and would be a really strong option. Extend is just okay.
Spellcasters used to buff themselves up before a fight, and extend would be a good use for that. However, concentration makes what you can do extremely limited on this front.
Spellcasters used to throw repeat enhanced maximized fireballs and the like. Can't do that anymore. One metamagic per spell with only one exception.
Empower this edition lets you reroll a few dice, which doesn't add that much damage. it's okay. But it pales in comparison to Empower and Maximize of the past.
If you quicken a spell, you're limited to cantrips this round. Cantrips suck if you're not a warlock. You're better of dodging, dashing, disengaging, or hiding. This is a good option for Sorlocks and Sorcadins, but is actually a trap option for a regular Sorcerer in most cases.
Used to be able to Widen spells, which would be great for things like Web. Imagine a Sleet Storm twice as wide as usual. Would be cool, right? Can't do that anymore.

Sorcerers don't have as much brute force as you suggest. Saying that Sorcerers have brute force suggests that whatever spell they cast, it's more powerful. That's true, isn't it? Not so much. A level 10 Sorcerer can spend 5 Sorcery points to twin Dominate Person, but a level 10 Enchanter Wizard can do so for free. There are a lot of cases like that where a Sorcerer can spend sorcery points to do something that some other true specialist can do for free.

So then what are Sorcerers? Generalists? Clearly no. But they aren't really specialists either since true specialists don't have to spend extra resources to be specialists. But Sorcerers can use their metamagic options on more types of spells than the true specialists. So, Sorcerers are...general specialists? It's confusing.

GeistInMachine

2019-07-17, 12:21 PM

This is incorrect. Since wizards can copy spells to their spell books, they can have 3 level 3 spells in their spell book at level 5.

The point is relevant to the discussion because it is another little perk wizards get that sorcerers don’t have access to.

Sure, the perk exists, but that's a DM giving a player magic items. Spell Scrolls exist in the treasure tables.

If we are counting that, then its just as easy to argue that sorcerers get flexibility through Wands and other spellcasting items.

With the fact that you can use metamagic on spells cast from items, and we have a case where both classes have features that make them stronger recipients of different magic items.

But i don't think its fair to assume one class is rewarded by their DM and the other is not

GeistInMachine

2019-07-17, 12:38 PM

Sorcerers don't have as much brute force as you suggest. Saying that Sorcerers have brute force suggests that whatever spell they cast, it's more powerful. That's true, isn't it? Not so much. A level 10 Sorcerer can spend 5 Sorcery points to twin Dominate Person, but a level 10 Enchanter Wizard can do so for free. There are a lot of cases like that where a Sorcerer can spend sorcery points to do something that some other true specialist can do for free.

If we are delving into subclasses, we should look at Sorcerer subclasses too. A sorcerer is just a different variety of specialist. So a Shadow Sorcerer uses Dominate Person with their Hound of Ill Omen. Now, the save is made at disadvantage, including every time the person dominated makes a save from being damaged. This is a much more resilient dominate, which is more likely to occur. That's what i mean by strength. Everything a properly build sorcerer does is more likely to stick or will stick more people.

And if they did the exact same thing, there would be no reason to have the two classes.
It should be a positive that the methods a sorc vs a wizard uses are different.

Composer99

2019-07-17, 12:43 PM

I crunched some numbers, and here are some spell slots totals:
(1) If you are a bard or cleric, a non-land druid, or a sorcerer who doesn't use sorcery points to create new slots
(2) A land druid or wizard who uses arcane recovery to get the highest possible level slots
(3) A sorcerer with spell slots who maximises creating spell slots at the highest possible level
(4) A warlock who gets 2 short rests (the slots from 6th level spells on are the mystic arcanum spells)
(5) A sorcerer with the spell point variant who maximises creating spell slots at the highest possible level - the DMG variant doesn't let you make additional 6th and 7th level slots, but I'm assuming here allowing that at 19th and 20th level.

(In both sorcerer cases, I'm assuming 2 short rests for the 20th-level capstone)

The sorcerer who focuses on creating spell slots certainly can get a lot of spell slots, although they only pull ahead of the warlock when they use the spell point variant, and even then it's only at 9th and 10th level where the sorcerer's slots look really out of line compared to warlock. But that's at the cost of maybe having 1 spell point to spare for metamagic each adventuring day. Also, in reality the sorcerer will create (or not burn) lower-level slots to use spells such as Mage Armour.

Normal Spell Slots

Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
4
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
4
3
2
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
4
3
3
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
4
3
3
1
-
-
-
-
-

8th
4
3
3
2
-
-
-
-
-

9th
4
3
3
3
1
-
-
-
-

10th
4
3
3
3
2
-
-
-
-

11th
4
3
3
3
2
1
-
-
-

12th
4
3
3
3
2
1
-
-
-

13th
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
-
-

14th
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
-
-

15th
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
-

16th
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
-

17th
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
1

18th
4
3
3
3
3
1
1
1
1

19th
4
3
3
3
3
2
1
1
1

20th
4
3
3
3
3
2
2
1
1

Spell Slots + Recovery

Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
4
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
4
3
3
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
4
3
4
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
4
3
3
2
-
-
-
-
-

8th
4
3
3
3
-
-
-
-
-

9th
4
3
3
3
2
-
-
-
-

10th
4
3
3
3
3
-
-
-
-

11th
5
3
3
3
3
1
-
-
-

12th
5
3
3
3
3
1
-
-
-

13th
4
4
3
3
3
1
1
-
-

14th
4
4
3
3
3
1
1
-
-

15th
4
3
4
3
3
1
1
1
-

16th
4
3
4
3
3
1
1
1
-

17th
4
3
3
4
3
1
1
1
1

18th
4
3
3
4
4
1
1
1
1

19th
4
3
3
3
5
2
1
1
1

20th
4
3
3
3
5
2
2
1
1

Sorcerer burning slots via font of magic and maximising higher-level slots

Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
1
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
1
5
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
0
0
5
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
0
0
6
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
0
0
0
5
-
-
-
-
-

8th
0
0
0
6
-
-
-
-
-

9th
0
0
1
0
6
-
-
-
-

10th
0
0
0
1
7
-
-
-
-

11th
0
0
0
0
8
1
-
-
-

12th
0
0
0
0
8
1
-
-
-

13th
1
0
0
0
8
1
1
-
-

14th
0
1
0
0
8
1
1
-
-

15th
0
1
0
0
8
1
1
1
-

16th
0
0
1
0
8
1
1
1
-

17th
0
0
0
1
8
1
1
1
1

18th
0
0
0
0
10
1
1
1
1

19th
0
0
0
0
10
2
1
1
1

20th
0
0
0
0
11
2
2
1
1

Warlock Pact Magic Slots + Mystic Arcanum

Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
6
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
0
6
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
0
6
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
0
0
6
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
0
0
6
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
0
0
0
6
-
-
-
-
-

8th
0
0
0
6
-
-
-
-
-

9th
0
0
0
0
6
-
-
-
-

10th
0
0
0
0
6
-
-
-
-

11th
0
0
0
0
9
1
-
-
-

12th
0
0
0
0
9
1
-
-
-

13th
0
0
0
0
9
1
1
-
-

14th
0
0
0
0
9
1
1
-
-

15th
0
0
0
0
9
1
1
1
-

16th
0
0
0
0
9
1
1
1
-

17th
0
0
0
0
12
1
1
1
1

18th
0
0
0
0
12
1
1
1
1

19th
0
0
0
0
12
1
1
1
1

20th
0
0
0
0
16
1
1
1
1

Sorcerer Spell Point Variant

Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
1
5
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
0
7
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
1
0
6
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
0
1
7
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
0
1
0
7
-
-
-
-
-

8th
0
1
0
8
-
-
-
-
-

9th
0
1
0
0
9
-
-
-
-

10th
0
1
0
0
10
-
-
-
-

11th
0
0
1
0
10
1
-
-
-

12th
0
0
0
1
10
1
-
-
-

13th
0
0
0
0
11
1
1
-
-

14th
0
0
0
0
11
1
1
-
-

15th
1
0
0
0
11
1
1
1
-

16th
0
1
0
0
11
1
1
1
-

17th
0
1
0
0
11
1
1
1
1

18th
0
0
1
0
12
1
1
1
1

19th
0
0
0
1
12
2
1
1
1

20th
0
0
0
0
14
2
2
1
1

I've made two more tables for reference: a sorcerer using spell slots, and a sorcerer using spell points. In both cases they use the sorcery/spell points they get from font of magic (1/level starting at 2nd level) for metamagic, except at 2nd level when they don't have any. In addition, they will cast 4 1st-level spells each day (mage armour and shield as required). The extra sorcery points gained per short rest at 20th level are used to create a 5th-level slot.

In-Between Sorcerer (Spell Slots)

Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
4
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
4
1
3
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
4
1
4
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
4
0
0
3
-
-
-
-
-

8th
4
0
0
4
-
-
-
-
-

9th
4
0
0
1
4
-
-
-
-

10th
4
0
0
1
5
-
-
-
-

11th
4
0
0
1
5
1
-
-
-

12th
4
0
0
1
5
1
-
-
-

13th
4
0
0
1
5
1
1
-
-

14th
4
0
0
1
5
1
1
-
-

15th
4
0
0
1
5
1
1
1
-

16th
4
0
0
1
5
1
1
1
-

17th
4
0
0
1
5
1
1
1
1

18th
4
0
0
1
6
1
1
1
1

19th
4
0
0
1
6
2
1
1
1

20th
4
0
0
1
7
2
2
1
1

In-Between Sorcerer (Spell Points)

Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
4
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
4
1
3
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
4
1
4
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
4
0
0
4
-
-
-
-
-

8th
4
0
0
5
-
-
-
-
-

9th
4
0
0
0
7
-
-
-
-

10th
4
0
0
0
8
-
-
-
-

11th
4
0
0
0
8
1
-
-
-

12th
4
0
0
0
8
1
-
-
-

13th
4
0
0
0
8
1
1
-
-

14th
4
0
0
0
8
1
1
-
-

15th
4
0
0
0
8
1
1
1
-

16th
4
0
0
0
8
1
1
1
-

17th
4
0
0
0
8
1
1
1
1

18th
4
0
0
0
9
1
1
1
1

19th
4
0
0
0
9
2
1
1
1

20th
4
0
0
0
10
2
2
1
1

This gets closer to how many non-cantrip spells a sorcerer is likely to cast during an adventuring day - except it still isn't very realistic as they're likely to use 2nd-/3rd-/4th-level spells that they know without upcasting (unless they only pick spells that can be upcast), and at higher levels they'll probably not use all 20 sorcery points for metamagic.

I would say that if you consider the 3.5 idea of the sorcerer who keeps on trucking after the wizards etc. have run out of mojo to be an essential component of the sorcerer's identity - or ought to be if it isn't - then spell points is the way to go. With the entropy PHB Font of Magic imposes, a PHB sorcerer who actually wants to use metamagic really can't burn spell slots for sorcery points at all if they want to end up with more slots in raw numbers than do wizards and land druids, and keeping pace with warlocks is out of the question.

A sorcerer using spell points, by contrast, can use piles of metamagic on their spells, cast spells waaaay more often than anyone else can, or cast their highest-level spells at a pace that matches or outpaces a warlock with 2 short rests, but they can't do all three at the same time - it's probably more of a "pick two" situation. Also, this only happens from about 7th level on - before that point they're not really manipulating their slots that much, so the only thing they're doing other casters aren't is metamagic.

Trickery

2019-07-17, 01:19 PM

If we are delving into subclasses, we should look at Sorcerer subclasses too. A sorcerer is just a different variety of specialist. So a Shadow Sorcerer uses Dominate Person with their Hound of Ill Omen. Now, the save is made at disadvantage, including every time the person dominated makes a save from being damaged. This is a much more resilient dominate, which is more likely to occur. That's what i mean by strength. Everything a properly build sorcerer does is more likely to stick or will stick more people.

And if they did the exact same thing, there would be no reason to have the two classes.
It should be a positive that the methods a sorc vs a wizard uses are different.

We can keep going back and forth on this forever, diving into endless details and specific builds and circumstances. I'm not really interested in that kind of debate. Besides, we're getting off-topic.

The general statement I'd like to make is that a Wizard is both a generalist and a specialist, generally, as we can see with Enchanter as one example. A Sorcerer, as written, is a limited specialist at the best of times and is just a worse Wizard at the worst of times. I don't think that's a good identity for the class. I suppose you either agree with that stance or you don't.

Because I don't think Sorcerers have a good identity as written, I think they, more than any other caster, would benefit from Metamagic. It suits the identity they once had and even plays well into the identity of being a specialist - they specialize in casting these spells, and are therefore better at casting these spells than other casters by being able to do so efficiently.

Call me Joseph, because you're about to say "they're already better at casting the spells they have because of Metamagic and Font of Magic." No. Metamagic is tacked on - it has nothing to do with the actual mechanism of casting the spell. Additionally, true specialists replicate those same Metamagic options for their actual specialties. That's not a specialist caster.

The Warlock is, in fact, closer to being a specialist caster than the Sorcerer is. They gain just twenty spells over their career counting arcanums. Their casting is more limited than any other caster in the sense that they have to use the highest slot every time. But they supplement that with short rest recovery, alongside invocations that help them further specialize. Whatever spells they cast, they're always casting the most powerful version of that spell, and they can do so quite often considering the power.

As written, Sorcerers aren't really a specialist class so much as a Trick class. You play them because you want to Twin Haste, Extend Aid, Subtle Suggestion, or multiclass into Paladin or Warlock. That's why I called them a gimmick.

Again, you either agree with that or you don't. But that's my outlook on the class.

TheUser

2019-07-17, 02:39 PM

Trickery

2019-07-17, 02:43 PM

Ahh yes the ol' double-sunbeam-with-quickened-spell-opener-into-more-sunbeams-while launching-fireballs-with-quickened-spell gimmick. Hardly impactful at all really....

Sunbeam: cannot be Twinned. Affects more than one creature.
D&D 5e Basic Rules (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/spellcasting): "A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."

You cannot Twin Sunbeam. If you Quicken Sunbeam, you cannot cast Sunbeam this turn. You cannot cast Fireball on the same round that you cast Quicken Fireball.

If what you're suggesting was possible, then Sorcerers would be absolutely crazy not to take Twin and Quicken every single time.

Master O'Laughs

2019-07-17, 02:46 PM

Sunbeam: cannot be Twinned. Affects more than one creature.
D&D 5e Basic Rules (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/spellcasting): "A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."

You cannot Twin Sunbeam. If you Quicken Sunbeam, you cannot cast Sunbeam this turn. You cannot cast Fireball on the same round that you cast Quicken Fireball.

If what you're suggesting was possible, then Sorcerers would be absolutely crazy not to take Twin and Quicken every single time.

What he is referring to is:

Turn 1:
BA: Quickened Sunbeam for damage
A: Activate Sunbeam again for damage (not casting just using its ability as an action)

Turn 2:
A: Activate Sunbeam for damage
BA: Quickened Fireball

rinse and repeat until things die.

Trickery

2019-07-17, 02:54 PM

What he is referring to is:

Turn 1:
BA: Quickened Sunbeam for damage
A: Activate Sunbeam again for damage (not casting just using its ability as an action)

Turn 2:
A: Activate Sunbeam for damage
BA: Quickened Fireball

rinse and repeat until things die.

Got it. That's a gimmick using spells that allow you to use your action to do X round after round. That actually supports my point that Sorcerers are a gimmick class, a trick class, and not a magical specialist class. Every time someone tries to defend the Sorcerer as written, they point to some specific Metamagic trick. That's like saying Fighter is a good class because of Polearm Mastery + Quarterstaff + Shield. That's not a class identity, it's a mechanical trick.

It's also something my current DM would ban calling it an exploit, but that's neither here nor there.

And I have yet to see one person reply to my proposition of giving Sorcerers spell points and all full casters Metamagic. If someone did reply and I didn't see it, then I apologize.

TheUser

2019-07-17, 03:01 PM

Sunbeam: cannot be Twinned. Affects more than one creature.
[B][URL="https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/spellcasting"]
If what you're suggesting was possible, then Sorcerers would be absolutely crazy not to take Twin and Quicken every single time.

Whoawhoa slow down. Nowhere do I mention Twinned spell in that Sunbeam combo. It's all quicken.
-But-
It is possible; using your action to trigger sunbeam does not count as casting a spell. You can quicken it, then use it again on the same turn. On following turns activate it with your action and sling spells with quicken.
I've been trying to say that sorcerers are absolutely bonkers and don't need spell poonts at alllll but apparently -I'm- the one who's clueless....

EDIT: there are loads of other spells that function this way. It's not a gimmick so much as it's a combo that exists with at least 4 other spells (6 maybe?). If your DM would ban this then I'm not sure what to tell you...It carries a hefty resource cost and makes the sorcerer dunk through slots and sorc points. This is one of the reasons metamagic is actually not just mediocre but extremely useful.
You've clearly dug in your heels and don't want to acknowledge what people are tryiing to explain to you. Good luck in life with that attitude.

Trickery

2019-07-17, 03:08 PM

Whoawhoa slow down. Nowhere do I mention Twinned spell in that Sunbeam combo. It's all quicken.
-But-
It is possible; using your action to trigger sunbeam does not count as casting a spell. You can quicken it, then use it again on the same turn. On following turns activate it with your action and sling spells with quicken.
I've been trying to say that sorcerers are absolutely bonkers and don't need spell poonts at alllll but apparently -I'm- the one who's clueless....

See:

Got it. That's a gimmick using spells that allow you to use your action to do X round after round. That actually supports my point that Sorcerers are a gimmick class, a trick class, and not a magical specialist class. Every time someone tries to defend the Sorcerer as written, they point to some specific Metamagic trick. That's like saying Fighter is a good class because of Polearm Mastery + Quarterstaff + Shield. That's not a class identity, it's a mechanical trick.

It's also something my current DM would ban calling it an exploit, but that's neither here nor there.

And I have yet to see one person reply to my proposition of giving Sorcerers spell points and all full casters Metamagic. If someone did reply and I didn't see it, then I apologize.

You posted a gimmick in response to me calling Sorcerers a gimmick class. You're supporting my point. You'll notice that I have seldom discussed power in this thread because I don't really care which class is most powerful nearly as much as I care about feel and identity. My last three classes played are Ranger, Monk, and Sorcerer, for Pete's sake.

Sorcerer is a class whose design is best-suited for players who want to take specific, clever little options that take advantage of wording to try to game extra power out of the system. It's all mechanics without soul. That's not a class identity; it's a DM's nightmare.

EDIT: there are loads of other spells that function this way. It's not a gimmick so much as it's a combo that exists with at least 4 other spells (6 maybe?). If your DM would ban this then I'm not sure what to tell you...It carries a hefty resource cost and makes the sorcerer dunk through slots and sorc points. This is one of the reasons metamagic is actually not just mediocre but extremely useful.
You've clearly dug in your heels and don't want to acknowledge what people are tryiing to explain to you. Good luck in life with that attitude.

I'm not digging in my heels; we're just talking about different things. I keep saying Sorcerers feel crappy to play and are more a collection of tricks than they are a class with soul, with an identity, a Class Fantasy. And your response is to continually assert how powerful you think Sorcerers are. You assert this in response to pushes to give Sorcerers a unique method of casting spells that wouldn't result in more power, just more versatility with existing options. And you ignore my push to give every other caster the same power you believe Sorcerers possess.

You are completely avoiding my points. That's why you think I've dug in my heels; you haven't yet made it to the ground where my heels are planted.

Bobthewizard

2019-07-17, 03:40 PM

You assert this in response to pushes to give Sorcerers a unique method of casting spells that wouldn't result in more power, just more versatility with existing options. And you ignore my push to give every other caster the same power you believe Sorcerers possess.

I think your spell point system is significantly more powerful than the current spell slot system. It lets you trade low level slots for higher ones more efficiently than Sorcerers can currently. I'd always rather cast more 3-5th level spells and less 1st and 2nd level spells. Giving other casters meta magic would be a boost to them, of course. I just don't think the caster classes need such boosts in power. Casters are already more powerful than non-casters.

Do what you want in your game. I wouldn't want to DM with this rule or play anything other than a Sorcerer if I was a player. If I implemented this rule, my players would come to the table with a Dragon sorcerer, a Divine soul, a Sorcadin and a Sorlock. Sorcerers are already pretty popular in our games.

TheUser

2019-07-17, 03:51 PM

You posted a gimmick in response to me calling Sorcerers a gimmick class. You're supporting my point. You'll notice that I have seldom discussed power in this thread because I don't really care which class is most powerful nearly as much as I care about feel and identity. My last three classes played are Ranger, Monk, and Sorcerer, for Pete's sake.

Sorcerer is a class whose design is best-suited for players who want to take specific, clever little options that take advantage of wording to try to game extra power out of the system. It's all mechanics without soul. That's not a class identity; it's a DM's nightmare.

I think we perceive the word "gimmick (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gimmick)" differently.
I think the other thing is that you have these negative opinions and so we are left with only spoon-feeding you powerful niche options instead of detailing just how powerful the literal 100+ interactions are.

I mean...if careful spell is just a gimmick then what exactly is sculpt spells for the invoker?

The gamechanger that is subtle spell; 100% just a trick meant to draw people into the class.

Does this make other spell modification features a handful of gimmicks?

What about smite? It's literally burning spell slots (an equivalent power exchange to spending sorcery points) to add damage to a melee attack. It's like empowered spell for melee attacks. Is it a gimmick too?

I'm not digging in my heels; we're just talking about different things. I keep saying Sorcerers feel crappy to play and are more a collection of tricks than they are a class with soul, with an identity, a Class Fantasy. And your response is to continually assert how powerful you think Sorcerers are. You assert this in response to pushes to give Sorcerers a unique method of casting spells that wouldn't result in more power, just more versatility with existing options. And you ignore my push to give every other caster the same power you believe Sorcerers possess.

You are completely avoiding my points. That's why you think I've dug in my heels; you haven't yet made it to the ground where my heels are planted.

Bro. Your point is; sorcerer identity and power levels are bleak and that somehow giving them spell points is a balanced solution and that somehow giving metamagic to other casters is also in anyway balanced.

You've labelled (without any sort of detailed analysis) metamagic as a "gimmick" when it's a diverse and powerful feature set that holds hundreds of interactions to be considered and balanced.

Did you ever wonder why the sorcerer list of spells to choose from was so trim?
Consider for a moment what giving metamagic to wizards would do....

I don't want to insult your intelligence but this has 1 of 2 outcomes. Either metamagic as a feat becomes so ineffectual that it's not worth taking (because it has to be balanced around interacting with Bard's Magical Secrets/Wizard spell list, or it takes the already potent casters that dominate tier 3 and 4 and shoots them into the stratosphere of overpowered. You want a DM's nightmare? I'm getting the sweats just thinking about a level 13 Eldritch Knight or Bladesinger with Quickened Spell. At least if a Wizard multi-classes at 17 into 3 sorcerer levels they get only 2 metamagics and have to start burning slot power to get lots of use out of it....they are also level 20 (or crap on their spell progression).

But naw bro, you cling to the gimmick label and continue to believe that metamagic is just this little "trick" that doesn't completely change the way a sorcerer can play. I mean what can a person really do with just an action while casting spells right? Quicken doesn't put hide, disengage, dodge, cantrips, dashing, using an object, grappling, attacking, persuasion, or the like on the table. It's just some dumb trick meant to infuriate DM's right?

bendking

2019-07-17, 04:15 PM

I've made two more tables for reference: a sorcerer using spell slots, and a sorcerer using spell points. In both cases they use the sorcery/spell points they get from font of magic (1/level starting at 2nd level) for metamagic, except at 2nd level when they don't have any. In addition, they will cast 4 1st-level spells each day (mage armour and shield as required). The extra sorcery points gained per short rest at 20th level are used to create a 5th-level slot.

Awesome, thanks!
I'll put these all together for myself, and add another table with my system in place just for comparison:

In-Between Sorcerer (Spell Slots)

Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
4
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
4
1
3
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
4
1
4
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
4
0
0
3
-
-
-
-
-

8th
4
0
0
4
-
-
-
-
-

9th
4
0
0
1
4
-
-
-
-

10th
4
0
0
1
5
-
-
-
-

11th
4
0
0
1
5
1
-
-
-

12th
4
0
0
1
5
1
-
-
-

13th
4
0
0
1
5
1
1
-
-

14th
4
0
0
1
5
1
1
-
-

15th
4
0
0
1
5
1
1
1
-

16th
4
0
0
1
5
1
1
1
-

17th
4
0
0
1
5
1
1
1
1

18th
4
0
0
1
6
1
1
1
1

19th
4
0
0
1
6
2
1
1
1

20th
4
0
0
1
7
2
2
1
1

In-Between Sorcerer (Spell Points)

Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
4
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
4
1
3
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
4
1
4
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
4
0
0
4
-
-
-
-
-

8th
4
0
0
5
-
-
-
-
-

9th
4
0
0
0
7
-
-
-
-

10th
4
0
0
0
8
-
-
-
-

11th
4
0
0
0
8
1
-
-
-

12th
4
0
0
0
8
1
-
-
-

13th
4
0
0
0
8
1
1
-
-

14th
4
0
0
0
8
1
1
-
-

15th
4
0
0
0
8
1
1
1
-

16th
4
0
0
0
8
1
1
1
-

17th
4
0
0
0
8
1
1
1
1

18th
4
0
0
0
9
1
1
1
1

19th
4
0
0
0
9
2
1
1
1

20th
4
0
0
0
10
2
2
1
1

In-Between Sorcerer (Spell Points Variant)

Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
4
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
4
1
3
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
4
1
4
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
4
0
0
4
-
-
-
-
-

8th
4
0
0
5
-
-
-
-
-

9th
4
0
0
2
5
-
-
-
-

10th
4
0
0
3
5
-
-
-
-

11th
4
0
0
3
5
1
-
-
-

12th
4
0
0
3
5
1
-
-
-

13th
4
0
0
3
5
1
1
-
-

14th
4
0
0
3
5
1
1
-
-

15th
4
0
0
3
5
1
1
1
-

16th
4
0
0
3
5
1
1
1
-

17th
4
0
0
3
5
1
1
1
1

18th
4
0
0
4
5
1
1
1
1

19th
4
0
0
5
5
2
1
1
1

20th
4
0
2
5
5
2
2
1
1

bendking

2019-07-17, 04:23 PM

Yes, Wizards are more likely to have a tool for the job, but variety is the strength of the wizard. We arnt trying to make a sorcerer a wizard, we should lean into them being specialists.
But in general, if a problem is a door, the wizard is the rogue that picks the lock
The Sorcerer is the barbarian that just knocks the door down

Yes the Wizard has more tools, but the brute force a sorcerer adds to their tools is enough to compensate and accomplish the same tasks. But then in the moment the sorcerer does have the right tool for the job, its going to be much more effective than the wizard.

I think you misunderstood me. Not only am I saying Wizard has more utility than Sorcerer, which is a given, but that he also more likely to have a good cast to spell at any point in combat which doesn't require concentration. Looking at the spell list you built, you have only two options once your concentrating on a spell: Synaptic Static & Blindness. That's it.
Synaptic Static is only useful as an opener when enemies and allies aren't intermingled, and then you'll be spamming Blindness for the rest of the battle, which is as we agreed sub-optimal.
A Wizard is much more likely to have left over spells that could still fit many situation in combat while the Sorcerer will be stuck spamming Blindness or casting cantrips.
I'm arguing that not only does the Wizard have more utility outside of combat, but also in combat due to having a wider selection of spells to cast.
It's true the Sorcerer's spells will be more potent, but he will have much less ability to fit the spell to the combat: Blindness isn't always effective, Synaptic Static isn't always appropriate, what happens then? Your Sorcerer is SOL and stuck casting cantrips the entire battle while concentrating on his one control spell.

Also, to further strengthen my point, your Sorcerer only has 2 slots of 5th level spells. Once he cast them both he is even out of blast spells (since he can't fit Fireball in, which a Wizard would simply have lying around because of course he does), and can now literally only cast Blindness.
This problem is mitigated by Spell Points, since you could keep casting Synaptic Static and thus not run out of blast options (which are half of your non-conc combat spells) and not have to keep Fireball in your spell list. Again, the Wizard doesn't even have this problem since he keeps all his spells without having to cycle them out and thus has blast options (if so inclined) for almost every spell level.

Talsin

2019-07-17, 04:39 PM

You guys keep the argument that Sorcerer is the weakest class...
But have any of you ever heard of the Sorcerer King?

On a more serious note: I see that a lot of argumentation is being made between Sorc and Wiz-Subclass. I don't think we even need to go that far into its assessment...

Arcane Recovery vs (Font of Magic + Metamagic)

Arcane Recovery is not nearly as good as Font of Magic & Metamagic (and I combine these for a reason).
At lowest level when the values are most even, Arcane recovery gives back the same amount of slot value. Additionally, AR takes a Short Rest, where Font/Metamagic can be done in combat. Low-spectrum, AR cannot compare.
At 20th level, Font gives an entire extra 4th level slot if used entirely for slots, PLUS all the benefit of quicker, on-the-fly recovery.

Seems pretty cut and dry. Sorcerer is better than Wizard...But wait...
Why was I calling it Font of Magic + Metamagic when I never mentioned using Metamagic?
because this is a big reason people see Sorcerer as a weaker class.

Font/Metamagic uses the same resource. They are tied together. They should have called the ability "Sorcery" with abilities such as "Font of Magic" and "Metamagic" in the same way Monks have an ability called "Ki" in the form of "Ki Points". In this way, it feels like Sorcerer was planned as a Wizard subclass with "Sorcery" as the primary ability.

So the question really becomes, is Font/Metamagic better than the majority of the Wizard Chassis?
-Arcane Recovery
-Ritual Spellcasting
-Ability to Learn more spells
-Ability to Prepare more spells
-Spell Mastery
-Signature Spells

So lets look at these abilities and compare them as a whole against Font/Metamagic (and at the high-end include Sorcerous Restoration)

Arcane Recovery
Okay, we've already looked at this above, but lets do a little bit more theorycrafting.
This is dedicated spell recovery. Wizards will always have spell recovery if they get a short rest (similar to Warlock and Land Druid). This beats out Cleric, and Bard, but we could argue is just about on-par with Warlock until Level 10, then beats it out for a while. So what? Sorcerer still has Font/Metamagic. It can do more than Arcane Recovery. But how much more? Well, at 20th level (highest return comparison), a single 4th level spell; equivalent to 6 Sorcery Points. Just 6. That's enough for 2 Heightens, or 3 Quickens in a day (capstone aside). With the requisite short rest of Arcane Recovery, we can call it 10 points given Sorcerous Restoration, heck, let's call it 14 points - We can expect 2 short rests in a day can't we? That's two Fifth level spells! That beats Arcane Recovery by a lot!

So how does it show up to the rest?

Signature Spells
Wait, what happened to Spell Mastery - jumping the gun a little aren't we? Well, we've declared short rests in a previous statement, how much return we can expect. 2 short rests for 4 extra Sorcery points. How does that compare with the Wizard capstone then hmmm? It falls pretty short. The Wizard Capstone Signature Spells Snaps Sorcerous Restoration in half. It gives a pretty bomb two 3rd level spells to cast during a day, followed up by returning them back every short rest. Equivalent to 10 sorcery points you might think? No, I'm not going to say that. These are set in stone from the start. Picked long prior to a rest or a bonus action or otherwise. At best, this is 6 sorcery point equivalents from having to return them to the pool before being spit back out. However, that's still 6. Which is greater than 4. Which I might add, 6 is the number that Sorcerer's have from Font/Metamagic at the start of the day, before they would have turned two 3rd level slots into points. Oh, and they come back on a short rest, giving better ROI than Sorcerous Restoration.

Long story short: Font/Metamagic + Sorcerous Restoration is roughly outclassed by Arcane Recovery and Signature spells alone in regards to slot acquisition efficiency. Best slots for you buck without having to pay a tax.

But then again, Sorcerer can do more with it's resources right? It's got the ability to USE METAMAGIC, which we haven't touched on...

Oh man, Metamagic is cool. Really, You can quicken a Sunbeam and use it the same turn, follow it up afterwards with a beam and a quickened Synaptic Scream or Disintegrate to really show those baddies who's boss, or even at high levels double down and True Polymorph two buddies into Apollo and Artemis because they're level 20 and who wouldn't want to be a pair of diametrically opposed yet cooperating deities? Well, it's pretty awesome to do all this stuff, or break the action economy to really get in there and twist the knife into your DM's "carefully planned" encounters - social or otherwise. How could anything compare?

Ability to Learn and Prepare more Spells
Variety. Variability. Planning. That's the key to Wizardly Power. With the ability to cast 66% more types of spells on the fly than a Sorcerer (not including Signature Spells), you can React to save your buns against a charging barbarian with the "Shield" spell, or get ready to give some of the fiery pain right back to a Remorhaz with the "Absorb Elements" spell, or Shoot down that pack of animated silver sporks the sorcerer used on your friends with a quickened 5th level spell (along with a sunbeam to blind the opponent first) using a "Shatter" Spell, or make the Sorcerer blatantly fail their concentration save because you felt it necessary to blast her with 7 magic missiles in a comparable spray of "Magic Missiles" pushed to a 5th level slot (If your DM rolls that way), or lock them away in a transparent baby-cage made out of force without any chance to make a plea bargain with the "Forcecage" spell. But you know who wouldn't do all of that on a regular day out? Someone who can't afford to have those on hand without losing out on efficiency or value. Someone who can't prepare as many limes on a given day. Someone who doesn't have access to all those special limes that make a difficult encounter into something less trivial. Someone who can't sit down for ten minutes and pull a lime out of their handy-haversack to figure out what this scroll of "Key-Lime Pies" does before they scribble down the recipe to manufacture it later. Someone who can't adapt their spells into limes because they think it's funny to joke about old memes. Someone who doesn't get the largest selection of spells, nearly double the next largest list, and realistically can write it all down in a few books and access it within a day of needing specialized magic, maybe even 10 minutes away. Someone who didn't study magic, but who get it intuitively. A Sorcerer.

I'm rambling and forgot my point. OH WAIT, WIZARD CHASSIS OVERALL JUST GETS MORE THAN THE SORCERER.

Kane0

2019-07-17, 04:45 PM

Talsin

2019-07-17, 04:53 PM

I'm rambling and forgot my point. OH WAIT, WIZARD CHASSIS OVERALL JUST GETS MORE THAN THE SORCERER.

I'm sorry, I forgot to address Spell Mastery.
A 1st level and a 2nd level spell to cast at will as long as you prepare them can really add a lot to your day. Unlimited Shield spell. Unlimited Expeditious Retreat? - probably better to go with misty step. Unlimited invisibility. Unlimited Suggestion, Web, See Invisibility, feather fall, magic missile, (Seriously I could list a lot of spells). Oh, and with essentially a day of downtime, you can swap them out for different ones. -_-

They're called "Wizards of the Coast". Think they're gonna give a hand to Sorcerers?

Look, I guess what I'm saying is that Wizard is a more Powerful class. That doesn't mean Sorcerer is weak, but what it does mean, is that we are expecting more from it than we are getting.

Composer99

2019-07-17, 05:12 PM

IMO the number crunching on slots shows that spell points are not, in fact, overpowered. Even if you burn every point you have just to cast spells at the highest possible level, you're usually not that far ahead of warlocks.

But that means you're not using metamagic, and you're not casting low-level "workhorse" spells (especially shield and mage armour). That's a pretty severe opportunity cost, and it also defeats the purpose of playing a sorcerer as compared to some other spellcaster - that is, getting to use metamagic. If you want to just spam 5th-level spells and spam cantrips when blowing a spell slot doesn't make sense, you'd play a warlock.

If I were going to "fix" the sorcerer, I'd:
(1) Use spell points, with the benefit that you can create a second 6th-level spell slot each day starting at 19th level and a second 7th-level slot starting at 20th. I'd rename spell points sorcery points and bundle in the 1 sorcery point/level you get from Font of Magic. Having sorcerers cast spells entirely by creating spell slots on the fly also makes sense from a flavour perspective, rather than having the same slot system as wizards, druids, and clerics.
(2) Rename metamagic as "spell shaping". This divorces the mechanic from its 3.5 roots, flavour-wise, and aligns it more closely with the idea of the sorcerer manipulating their inherent/inborn magical power, shaping the raw currents of magic according to their will.
(3) Give one cantrip and one fixed spell known at each of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th level from their sorcerous origin. These spells ought to be thematic to the origin, and it's best if they can be utility spells that a sorcerer might not otherwise feel they can take. They also can't be swapped. This would pad a sorcerer's spells known while ideally not giving them a bunch of extra flexibility in combat. It also makes each sorcerous origin more important in defining each individual sorcerer's identity.

With these changes, while sorcerers still have fewer spells (save cantrips) than other classes, but could cast more spells overall than other spellcasters if they wanted, or cast fewer spells but more potent ones if they wanted, and/or use spell shaping/metamagic to boost their spells - but they can't do all three. They have to choose.

TheUser

2019-07-17, 05:15 PM

I'm sorry, I forgot to address Spell Mastery.
A 1st level and a 2nd level spell to cast at will as long as you prepare them can really add a lot to your day. Unlimited Shield spell. Unlimited Expeditious Retreat? - probably better to go with misty step. Unlimited invisibility. Unlimited Suggestion, Web, See Invisibility, feather fall, magic missile, (Seriously I could list a lot of spells). Oh, and with essentially a day of downtime, you can swap them out for different ones. -_-

They're called "Wizards of the Coast". Think they're gonna give a hand to Sorcerers?

Look, I guess what I'm saying is that Wizard is a more Powerful class. That doesn't mean Sorcerer is weak, but what it does mean, is that we are expecting more from it than we are getting.

Sorcerers use short rests to synthesize infinite sorcery points and therefore 5th level spell slots and can in essence boost their simulacrums of themselves with constant new 5th level slots; even though simulacrums cannot -regain- slots it doesn't stop them from creating all new ones with font of magic.
I'll take my unlimited 5th level slots on level 20 sorcerers vs unlimited 1st and 2nd level spells on wizard thanks.

Composer99

2019-07-17, 05:16 PM

If one was to humor me for a moment: if we took one class feature away from each caster class, would they still be considered good classes or worth playing? A bard without inspiration, a cleric without channel, a druid without wildshape, a warlock without invocations, a wizard without recovery, a sorcerer without metamagic.

Maybe it is the case that metamagic is good, which is not the same as saying that sorcerers are good. Ideally one could say that a class is more than just one, or even two, key features.

They're all still capable of casting high-level spells, so I don't know that I'd consider any of them "bad", but the sorcerer and warlock would certainly become a lot more boring. The bard arguably loses the least because Bardic Inspiration is probably weaker than any of the other options in terms of its effects, but losing arcane recovery isn't really that bad for the wizard because they're not losing anything new or different, just the ability to do more of the things they can already do. Clerics and druids would lose a lot in the exchange because channel divinity and especially wild shape are such potent features, but I think sorcerers and warlocks would lose the most because then all they have to fall back on are their limited number of spells known.

Talsin

2019-07-17, 05:30 PM

Sorcerers use short rests to synthesize infinite sorcery points and therefore 5th level spell slots and can in essence boost their simulacrums of themselves with constant new 5th level slots; even though simulacrums cannot -regain- slots it doesn't stop them from creating all new ones with font of magic.
I'll take my unlimited 5th level slots on level 20 sorcerers vs unlimited 1st and 2nd level spells on wizard thanks.

OOF, You got me! My cheese must have been Swiss, so full of holes! Your cheese was much stronger, maybe something like a blue or a Taleggio...

Ah yeah, that's a good point.

Nhorianscum

2019-07-17, 05:31 PM

Oh no. In the 18 round adventuring day the sorc as is can only cast 18 level 5+ spells and never bother with any of that peasant **** other casters are stuck with. I mean we can juice this but... no we really can't.

Oh no. 7th+ is where this trend shows. Hard.

Oh man font of magic is only the best spell recovery in the game. We need to buff this.

Guess we should... let them do this even more??????

I am so confused by spellpoint threads.

As for why metamagic was ignored? Spellpoints encourage ignoring metamagic.

bendking

2019-07-17, 05:45 PM

Sorcerers use short rests to synthesize infinite sorcery points and therefore 5th level spell slots and can in essence boost their simulacrums of themselves with constant new 5th level slots; even though simulacrums cannot -regain- slots it doesn't stop them from creating all new ones with font of magic.
I'll take my unlimited 5th level slots on level 20 sorcerers vs unlimited 1st and 2nd level spells on wizard thanks.

What sane DM will ever let you short rest beyond twice is beyond me. Why are we even discussing abilities the Sorcerer gets at level 20 which 99% of people will never get to?
Also, Sorcerer doesn't have access to Simulacrum..? This comment is puzzling to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

Nhorianscum

2019-07-17, 05:58 PM

What sane DM will ever let you short rest beyond twice is beyond me.
Also, Sorcerer doesn't have access to Simulacrum..? This comment is puzzling to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

Wise up
In this
Sorcerer thread
How's that?

Kane0

2019-07-17, 05:59 PM

OOF, You got me! My cheese must have been Swiss, so full of holes! Your cheese was much stronger, maybe something like a blue or a Taleggio...

Ah yeah, that's a good point.

Sorcerers don't get Simulacrum.

Nhorianscum

2019-07-17, 06:02 PM

Sorcerers don't get Simulacrum.

What are these
Inebriated friggin
Slobs talking about
Hover on L9

Bobthewizard

2019-07-17, 06:25 PM

If I were going to "fix" the sorcerer, I'd:
(1) Use spell points, with the benefit that you can create a second 6th-level spell slot each day starting at 19th level and a second 7th-level slot starting at 20th. I'd rename spell points sorcery points and bundle in the 1 sorcery point/level you get from Font of Magic. Having sorcerers cast spells entirely by creating spell slots on the fly also makes sense from a flavour perspective, rather than having the same slot system as wizards, druids, and clerics.
(2) Rename metamagic as "spell shaping". This divorces the mechanic from its 3.5 roots, flavour-wise, and aligns it more closely with the idea of the sorcerer manipulating their inherent/inborn magical power, shaping the raw currents of magic according to their will.
(3) Give one cantrip and one fixed spell known at each of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th level from their sorcerous origin. These spells ought to be thematic to the origin, and it's best if they can be utility spells that a sorcerer might not otherwise feel they can take. They also can't be swapped. This would pad a sorcerer's spells known while ideally not giving them a bunch of extra flexibility in combat. It also makes each sorcerous origin more important in defining each individual sorcerer's identity.

With these changes, while sorcerers still have fewer spells (save cantrips) than other classes, but could cast more spells overall than other spellcasters if they wanted, or cast fewer spells but more potent ones if they wanted, and/or use spell shaping/metamagic to boost their spells - but they can't do all three. They have to choose.

This might work at level 20, but it's overpowered at level 10. At level 10, a wizard can prepare 15 spells and cast 3 5th level spells. This system would give the sorcerer 16 spells and they could cast up to 8 5th level spells if they wanted. You could cast Wall of Stone or Animate Objects in every combat and still have points left over.

ImperiousLeader

2019-07-17, 06:25 PM

As written, Sorcerers aren't really a specialist class so much as a Trick class. You play them because you want to Twin Haste, Extend Aid, Subtle Suggestion, or multiclass into Paladin or Warlock. That's why I called them a gimmick.

Again, you either agree with that or you don't. But that's my outlook on the class.

I disagree. Or, if that's you define a gimmick, I'd also describe warlock invocations or most subclass features as gimmicks.

I do think that a Sorcerer has to evaluate spells differently than a Wizard. After considering the power of a spell, Wizards only really care if they're in their school of expertise or not. A Sorcerer is looking for spells that pair well with their Metamagic and subclass choices. A Sorcerer with Twin Spell is going to more seriously consider learning Haste and Polymorph than the Sorcerer without. But that means it's not a gimmick, it's a core decision of how your Sorcerer functions, just like a Warlock's choice of Pact Boon.

Kane0

2019-07-17, 06:30 PM

They're all still capable of casting high-level spells, so I don't know that I'd consider any of them "bad", but the sorcerer and warlock would certainly become a lot more boring. The bard arguably loses the least because Bardic Inspiration is probably weaker than any of the other options in terms of its effects, but losing arcane recovery isn't really that bad for the wizard because they're not losing anything new or different, just the ability to do more of the things they can already do. Clerics and druids would lose a lot in the exchange because channel divinity and especially wild shape are such potent features, but I think sorcerers and warlocks would lose the most because then all they have to fall back on are their limited number of spells known.

So to indulge own thought process;
Bards get song of rest and skill features plus a decent chassis and full casting capabilities including magical secrets. More spells known than the Sorc and Lock too, plus rituals.
Clerics still have a great chassis and excellent casting. Divine intervention and rituals are gravy
Druids have a good chassis and casting, but they don't look as great standing next to cleric unless the spell list really pulls you in.
Sorcerers... it doesn't look good for sorcerers. Their chassis and casting is done better elsewhere except for con save prof, but they do keep Font of Magic for more spells which becomes unique with the Wizard losing their equivalent (land druid aside)
Warlocks also suffer pretty badly. They retain their unique casting and pact boons however, and the ever popular eldritch blast still stands out amongst other cantrips.
Wizards still have plenty going for them. Their chassis sucks but their casting is top notch and their capstones are amazing.

This helps clarify my own tendencies actually. Now I think I know why I trend away from Druids and Sorcerers.

GeistInMachine

2019-07-17, 06:40 PM

I do think that a Sorcerer has to evaluate spells differently than a Wizard. After considering the power of a spell, Wizards only really care if they're in their school of expertise or not. A Sorcerer is looking for spells that pair well with their Metamagic and subclass choices. A Sorcerer with Twin Spell is going to more seriously consider learning Haste and Polymorph than the Sorcerer without. But that means it's not a gimmick, it's a core decision of how your Sorcerer functions, just like a Warlock's choice of Pact Boon.

I think you could take it a step further

If a level 10 wizard has 15 spells they can cast at any one time, you may be tempted to compare that to 11 spells of a sorcerer and find it lacking

But Sorcerer thrives on combinitorix
Lets say that a sorc has Quickened, Twin, and Heightened

Off the bat, 11 spells becomes 22 options when you account for quicken
In essence, its giving you 11 more spells all with a bonus action cast time

Twin, add another four spells, two for twinned debuffs, 2 for twinned buffs

That's 26 choices now

Heightened can be used on maybe 2-3 other spells. Some giving another option to spells you could instead twin

So 29 options

Thats a lot more options than a wizard has at any one moment

A sorcerer just in this example has about double the options to more flexibly apply to a situation on any given turn than a wizard from this perspective.

TheUser

2019-07-17, 06:46 PM

What sane DM will ever let you short rest beyond twice is beyond me. Why are we even discussing abilities the Sorcerer gets at level 20 which 99% of people will never get to?

Imagine you run an adventuring day and you are about to long rest; but it was an exploration day, or mostly a social day, heck let's call it 24 hours of just resting.

"I take 24 short rests and smash down all 96 sorc points into 14 level 5 spell slots and minus 2 out of my 20 sorc points."
"Instead of taking a long rest I take 8 short rests get 32 sorc points to turn into 5 extra 5th level slots minus 3 out of my 20 sorc points."

Also, Sorcerer doesn't have access to Simulacrum..? This comment is puzzling to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

Also, there's this level 9 sorcerer spell that lets you mimic any spell of 8th level or lower....

Kane0

2019-07-17, 07:00 PM

TheUser

2019-07-17, 07:14 PM

Bolded for emphasis, does this actually happen? Even the total noobs at my table would give me a funny look, laugh, and/or throw dice at me for a declaration like that.

Only if I am playing a divine soul sorcerer so I can use greater restoration to get rid of the level of exhaustion I accrue for not long resting/sleeping :P

(Considering it's a level 20 campaign the table should be ready for shenanigans)

Trickery

2019-07-17, 11:11 PM

Bolded for emphasis, does this actually happen? Even the total noobs at my table would give me a funny look, laugh, and/or throw dice at me for a declaration like that.

Not in the way some would imagine. People forget about rule 0 which is that the DM can change anything, thus has to approve whatever is being done. It's the ultimate defense against rules abuse. It's assumed that nobody knows better how to balance a mechanic at your table than your DM does. It's why we all put up with DMs who ban perfectly legal tactics and builds. We know the DM is just trying to keep their game balanced and that they know things about their campaign that the player doesn't.

If a DM chooses to ignore concentration requirements but asks the players not to use the spell Detect Thoughts this campaign, we understand that the DM is trying to run a particular campaign and not a hypothetical one.

If D&D was a video game, we'd all play Wizards and Paladins. But it isn't. We play what we want because we know the DM can and will change things to suit their campaign. Just as important, we don't always want to play the strongest guy in the room. We want to play a concept.

That's why I don't worry about power too much anymore. if there are balance issues, the DM will take care of it. He knows what will and won't work in his campaign. He'll make things flow, and he'll ensure that engaged players do well regardless of their class.

Instead, I worry about the feel, the fantasy. At the end of the day, that's what matters. And that feel is where I think the Sorcerer is lacking. They don't feel like they're the source of their own magic, or like a bloodline or unusual event blessed them with strange gifts. They just feel like a different Wizard.

Talsin

2019-07-17, 11:40 PM

I think you could take it a step further

If a level 10 wizard has 15 spells they can cast at any one time, you may be tempted to compare that to 11 spells of a sorcerer and find it lacking

But Sorcerer thrives on combinitorix
Lets say that a sorc has Quickened, Twin, and Heightened

Off the bat, 11 spells becomes 22 options when you account for quicken
In essence, its giving you 11 more spells all with a bonus action cast time

Twin, add another four spells, two for twinned debuffs, 2 for twinned buffs

That's 26 choices now

Heightened can be used on maybe 2-3 other spells. Some giving another option to spells you could instead twin

So 29 options

Thats a lot more options than a wizard has at any one moment

A sorcerer just in this example has about double the options to more flexibly apply to a situation on any given turn than a wizard from this perspective.

The trouble with considering them as additional options, is two-fold.
1: They cost a resource - Sorcery Points - which can equate to more spell slots which can leave a sorcerer casting less spells overall than a wizard (subclass not included).
2: They aren't exactly unique options. They can make your spells better fit a situation, but not all the time. Quicken lets you get better action economy with non-spell abilities (or cantrips), Twin spreads the same effect as before to a second target, but it's the same effect. Heighten may make it more difficult for a target to resist, but the spell's effect is the same. All of these changes from metamagic do not change the use of the spell on the same kind of utility scale as preparing 66% more spells alongside ritual.

Sorcerers lack the same kind of utility that a wizard has. That's fine. But when the wizard gets to be the utility mage AND is nearly as effective in combat (if not higher, again subclass not included) the competition really isn't really there.
I think the Sorcerer needs a focus, a niche, a thing role they can fill better - clearly better than anyone else, and right now they don't. Make it a blaster, or utility, or highly efficient in casting, or a controller, or whatever. Just make it better at that than anyone else.

Trickery

2019-07-17, 11:51 PM

I think the Sorcerer needs a focus, a niche, a thing role they can fill better - clearly better than anyone else, and right now they don't. Make it a blaster, or utility, or highly efficient in casting, or a controller, or whatever. Just make it better at that than anyone else.

They also need an identity. Their origins are supposed to be the source of their magic, but the origins can barely even be called specialties. They don't really do much to push the Sorcerer in a direction.

Kane0

2019-07-17, 11:52 PM

Kane0

2019-07-18, 12:05 AM

That's why I don't worry about power too much anymore. if there are balance issues, the DM will take care of it. He knows what will and won't work in his campaign. He'll make things flow, and he'll ensure that engaged players do well regardless of their class.

Instead, I worry about the feel, the fantasy. At the end of the day, that's what matters. And that feel is where I think the Sorcerer is lacking. They don't feel like they're the source of their own magic, or like a bloodline or unusual event blessed them with strange gifts. They just feel like a different Wizard.

To offer as simple an answer as possible, yes I believe Spell Points for sorcs only gives them that feel. They get a much needed second point of uniqueness, a casting method different to all others (like the warlock) to set them apart and that also functions 'as advertised'.

With the (poor) analogy of spells being gadgets that casters power throughout the day:
Slot casters: an assorted bundle of different sized batteries
Pact casters: fewer batteries that are all the same size, but they're rechargeable
Point casters: a charge cable with a time limit

Edit: Regarding handing out MM to everybody, I'm fine with that as a feat (in fact I offer that already (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22979646&postcount=4)) but if you're thinking without an opportunity cost then that's significantly more worrisome.

bendking

2019-07-18, 12:11 AM

Imagine you run an adventuring day and you are about to long rest; but it was an exploration day, or mostly a social day, heck let's call it 24 hours of just resting.

"I take 24 short rests and smash down all 96 sorc points into 14 level 5 spell slots and minus 2 out of my 20 sorc points."
"Instead of taking a long rest I take 8 short rests get 32 sorc points to turn into 5 extra 5th level slots minus 3 out of my 20 sorc points."

Also, there's this level 9 sorcerer spell that lets you mimic any spell of 8th level or lower....

What sane DM will ever let you short rest beyond twice is beyond me. Why are we even discussing abilities the Sorcerer gets at level 17 which 99% of people will never get to?

Come on man.

TheUser, i'm curious what you'd think of this houserule when using Spell Points: 'You can cast spells of any given level a number of times up to your proficiency bonus'

As in, up until level 5 you can only cast two spells of each level, a third up until level 9, four until level 13, five until 17 and six from there. Puts a hard cap on how many times you can spam the highest slot available to you.

Edit: This would bite at low levels, level 2 specifically. Hmm, maybe only implement it after you leave Tier 1.

I suggest simply limiting 1st & 2nd level casts to 9 per day, 3rd, 4th & 5th level casts to 5 per day, and 6th & above to one as usual.
Your houserule lets you cast more than one 6th level spell at level 11 which is already gamebreaking.
I've included a table that shows how much you can cast with my houserule, if you'd like to peruse it and share your thoughts :)

Nhorianscum

2019-07-18, 12:31 AM

Whoa whoa whoa. Are we really saying. That tier 2 sorc needs a buff?

Cause I'm pretty sure the "sorc is already good" crowd has been mostly using tier 1 and tier 4 arguments to sidle around the part where tier 2/tier3 sorc is unapologeticly busted as all hell without considering the common multi dips.

Kane0

2019-07-18, 12:33 AM

I suggest simply limiting 1st & 2nd level casts to 9 per day, 3rd, 4th & 5th level casts to 5 per day, and 6th & above to one as usual.
Your houserule lets you cast more than one 6th level spell at level 11 which is already gamebreaking.
I've included a table that shows how much you can cast with my houserule, if you'd like to peruse it and share your thoughts :)

Nay, would not override the existing spellpoint rules so no more than one spell of levels 6+ as usual.

Well, it seems our ideas aren't really that different. Really 1st and 2nd level spells aren't a concern (to me) and 6th+ is already accounted for, so it's only the 3rd-5th band we have to worry about. Sticking those spell levels with a Prof bonus max would mean this takes effect at level 5 when you have a +3 (which sounds reasonable to my initial eyeball) and caps at +6, only one off your rule and still under what you'd expect a warlock to be pulling off at the same level.

Hmm. Interested to see what TheUser reckons.

bendking

2019-07-18, 12:51 AM

Nay, would not override the existing spellpoint rules so no more than one spell of levels 6+ as usual.

Well, it seems our ideas aren't really that different. Really 1st and 2nd level spells aren't a concern (to me) and 6th+ is already accounted for, so it's only the 3rd-5th band we have to worry about. Sticking those spell levels with a Prof bonus max would mean this takes effect at level 5 when you have a +3 (which sounds reasonable to my initial eyeball) and caps at +6, only one off your rule and still under what you'd expect a warlock to be pulling off at the same level.

Hmm. Interested to see what TheUser reckons.

I just feel like your system isn't even that different to regular Sorcerer. I mean, at level 10 you can cast one more 5th level spell than a regular Sorcerer.
I guess it's a buff, but you also lose some flexibility that the original Sorcerer had, which could have to 6 5th level casts at level 10 if he needed to (though in between encounters, which is a weakness).
Not totally oppposed to it, just not sure it's enough :)

vexedart

2019-07-18, 12:59 AM

I haven’t experienced any of these feelings that the sorcerer is underpowered at all.

Tier 1 and beginning of 2 might of been harder than a wizard, but tiers 3 and 4 (I’ve played both from tier 1, to 20) I would say my sorceress outclassed my wizard in combat, and as the party face. It mostly depends on your spell selection. You’re strangled by spell choices, yes. But metamagic lets you do things that make other classes look on with envy.

Dominating with twin or subtle is very strong. Believe I had scag cantrips for dpr and kept up with the melee in damage. Beating them in melee damage in tiers 2 and 3 (the majority of the game) with a simple and cheap quickened scag cantrip and a +2 weapon. I chose subtle, and quicken in t1, and twin at lvl 10, finishing with heighten.

I really think the problem is that players choose sub optimal spells, or have poor spell knowledge of the sorcerers class list. They’re plenty powerful and play the face almost as well as a bard or rogue(expertise though), and out cast either in combat. (well I suppose a bard with find steed can pull some tricks, that amount to free twin on self target spells.)

Either way, with the spells you know, you cast them better than any other class in the game. That’s the sorcerers power. And this was before the favored soul came out. Which adds even more power opening up some cleric spells to you.

You want more versatility in casting? Talk to your DM, Grab a ravnica guild, it’s like adding a domain to any caster class. Hexblade dip exists if you want even more power. If you’re willing to open up spell points to them, than adding another book to the phb+1 rule shouldn’t be a problem.

In fact if I felt that sorcerers were underpowered(they’re not) I’d just remove the phb+1 book limit from them and probably ranger too, rangers fall off in power drastically after tier 2 it feels. But I won’t, because sorcs are strong. Subtle spell let’s you abuse the crap out of NPC’s, and that is plenty of power, behind a creative mind. Unless your d&d happens to only be combat, and you should do well in that regard too.

Also tier 4, I don’t think any caster is as strong as the sorcerer. Having wish and metamagic opens up so many cans of worms that other classes can’t even afford to pull. Besides maybe a million glyphs of warding.

Kane0

2019-07-18, 01:15 AM

You want more versatility in casting? Talk to your DM, Grab a ravnica guild, it’s like adding a domain to any caster class.

Interesting idea: if you're looking at a guild have it replace bonus spells granted from domain, oath, pact, etc. Sorcs don't get bonus spells from a source like that so more for them. Only downside is that the same also applies to wizards.

bendking

2019-07-18, 01:52 AM

@GeistInMachine I'm guessing you haven't noticed my comment, but I'd like hearing your thoughts on what I replied to you if you care to share them.

GeistInMachine

2019-07-18, 02:19 AM

I think you misunderstood me. Not only am I saying Wizard has more utility than Sorcerer, which is a given, but that he also more likely to have a good cast to spell at any point in combat which doesn't require concentration. Looking at the spell list you built, you have only two options once your concentrating on a spell: Synaptic Static & Blindness. That's it.
Synaptic Static is only useful as an opener when enemies and allies aren't intermingled, and then you'll be spamming Blindness for the rest of the battle, which is as we agreed sub-optimal.
A Wizard is much more likely to have left over spells that could still fit many situation in combat while the Sorcerer will be stuck spamming Blindness or casting cantrips.
I'm arguing that not only does the Wizard have more utility outside of combat, but also in combat due to having a wider selection of spells to cast.
It's true the Sorcerer's spells will be more potent, but he will have much less ability to fit the spell to the combat: Blindness isn't always effective, Synaptic Static isn't always appropriate, what happens then? Your Sorcerer is SOL and stuck casting cantrips the entire battle while concentrating on his one control spell.

I would argue this is the generally more efficient option. If the initial spell is more efficient, either a Twinned Buff, which is basically as efficient as two different turns of casting, if not more , or using a control spell, which has the opportunity to hit twice as many targets due to careful, or maybe a Heightened spell which CCs the target on turn 1 instead of turn 2; then i don't think this is a bad thing. The sorcerer stretches their spells further, and is making an impact on the battlefield that is more effective and more efficient. Combined with Con saves to not lose concentration, and a sorcerer is going to be riding higher on slots for the whole day whereas the wizard is losing spells to losing concentration and having to cast something else, or having to use more CC spells when less targets are affected or when enemies save vs the spells more often.

Also, to further strengthen my point, your Sorcerer only has 2 slots of 5th level spells. Once he cast them both he is even out of blast spells (since he can't fit Fireball in, which a Wizard would simply have lying around because of course he does), and can now literally only cast Blindness.
This problem is mitigated by Spell Points, since you could keep casting Synaptic Static and thus not run out of blast options (which are half of your non-conc combat spells) and not have to keep Fireball in your spell list. Again, the Wizard doesn't even have this problem since he keeps all his spells without having to cycle them out and thus has blast options (if so inclined) for almost every spell level.

The issue is also mitigated by font of magic. If you need more 5th slots, make more 5th slots. But this sorc, being a specialist, doesn't need blast spells that often. They have made their concentration spell up to twice as effective, so can spend turns using cantrips. Which, as an aside, can be twinned cheaply, to double cantrip DPR

A wizard spends turn 1 on Slow, turn 2 on Synaptic Static, turn 3 on fireball. 3 Actions. A 5th and 2 3rd level slots

A sorcerer spends turn 1 on Slow, turn 2 on Quickened Synaptic Static and twin Firebolt, turn 3 on twin firebolt. Cast without metamagic, that's 6 actions for a 5th, a 3rd, and 4 sorc points.

Very similar resource costs, and the sorcerer achieved 6 actions worth of effect in 3 turns. In a game of action economy, this is just a huge advantage. Again, you get past not having a perfectly matching tool-set by simply being more effective.

bendking

2019-07-18, 02:30 AM

I would argue this is the generally more efficient option. If the initial spell is more efficient, either a Twinned Buff, which is basically as efficient as two different turns of casting, if not more , or using a control spell, which has the opportunity to hit twice as many targets due to careful, or maybe a Heightened spell which CCs the target on turn 1 instead of turn 2; then i don't think this is a bad thing. The sorcerer stretches their spells further, and is making an impact on the battlefield that is more effective and more efficient. Combined with Con saves to not lose concentration, and a sorcerer is going to be riding higher on slots for the whole day whereas the wizard is losing spells to losing concentration and having to cast something else, or having to use more CC spells when less targets are affected or when enemies save vs the spells more often.

I see what your saying. However, I don't consider Careful Spell all that good considering it mainly meshes well with two 3rd level spells - Hypnotic Pattern & Fear and that's about it.
Other than that I do concede that the spells the Sorcerer does cast are more potent, but at this point it becomes hard to measure just how the potent Sorcrerer's spells measure up to the better action economy usage achieved by the Wizard. I don't think this comparison is as clear cut as you make it seem, saying the Sorcerer is straight up more effective in combat.

The issue is also mitigated by font of magic. If you need more 5th slots, make more 5th slots. But this sorc, being a specialist, doesn't need blast spells that often. They have made their concentration spell up to twice as effective, so can spend turns using cantrips. Which, as an aside, can be twinned cheaply, to double cantrip DPR

A wizard spends turn 1 on Slow, turn 2 on Synaptic Static, turn 3 on fireball. 3 Actions. A 5th and 2 3rd level slots

A sorcerer spends turn 1 on Slow, turn 2 on Quickened Synaptic Static and twin Firebolt, turn 3 on twin firebolt. Cast without metamagic, that's 6 actions for a 5th, a 3rd, and 4 sorc points.

Very similar resource costs, and the sorcerer achieved 6 actions worth of effect in 3 turns. In a game of action economy, this is just a huge advantage. Again, you get past not having a perfectly matching tool-set by simply being more effective.

OK, I'd argue the example you gave is a pretty and gable-y usage of your Sorcery Points. Realistically, you wouldn't twin all your cantrips like this nor quicken a Synaptic Static just to get out a Twinned Firebolt... Sure, you could, but YMMV a lot, and you're better off saving those Sorcery Points for something else.

A more realistic comparison would be:
A Wizard spends turn 1 on Slow, turn 2 on Synaptic Static, turn 3 on Fireball, turn 4 on Fireball, turn 5 on Fireball...
A Sorcerer spends turn 1 on Slow, turn 2 on Empowered Synaptic Static, turn 3 on Blindness/Firebolt, turn 4 on Blindness/Firebolt, turn 5 on Blindness/Firebolt...
Also, even in your example in which you haphazardly burn all your Sorcery Points on mediocre twinned firebolts, they still don't even begin to approach the power of a Fireball.

And it doesn't stop there, since Wizard has a bunch more options other than Fireball & Blindness, while Sorcerer is stuck spamming those spells.

ProsecutorGodot

2019-07-18, 02:41 AM

A more realistic comparison would be:
A Wizard spends turn 1 on Slow, turn 2 on Synaptic Static, turn 3 on Fireball, turn 4 on Fireball, turn 5 on Fireball...
A Sorcerer spends turn 1 on Slow, turn 2 on Empowered Synaptic Static, turn 3 on Blindness/Firebolt, turn 4 on Blindness/Firebolt, turn 5 on Blindness/Firebolt...

And it doesn't stop there, since Wizard has a bunch more options other than Fireball & Blindness, while Sorcerer is stuck spamming those spells.

The Sorcerer knows 11 spells by 10th level, how would he be stuck choosing between Blindness and a Cantrip? Why isn't he using his Metamagic? This example doesn't seem realistic in the slightest.

bendking

2019-07-18, 02:55 AM

The Sorcerer knows 11 spells by 10th level, how would he be stuck choosing between Blindness and a Cantrip? Why isn't he using his Metamagic? This example doesn't seem realistic in the slightest.

I'm using the spell list established by @Geist.
Feel free to replace Slow with Careful Hypnotic Pattern/Fear, I don't think it changes much.

And of course, you're more than welcome to show a spell list with more non-conc spells than those included in this one.

ProsecutorGodot

2019-07-18, 03:04 AM

I'm using the spell list established by @Geist.
Feel free to replace Slow with Careful Hypnotic Pattern/Fear, I don't think it changes much.

And of course, you're more than welcome to show a spell list with more non-conc spells than those included in this one.

Even with that spell list in mind, why do you think this Sorcerer shouldn't be using his metamagic to augment his spells?

What exactly does he gain by not using these metamagic options? How is it a realistic example when you're deliberately leaving out the feature that allows the Sorcerer to have versatility over other spellcasters.

GeistInMachine

2019-07-18, 03:07 AM

Note, my turn example was showing how with a similar resource cost, a sorcerer can frontload the effects they put out

You quicken the synaptic static and then twin firebolts on weakened targets to nab two kills immediately

Actions early in a fight are inherantly more valuable than later in a fight. So if that early nova nabs kills in this example, you don't have to cast fireball turn after turn down the line. And in the end you end up saving slots at the cost of your secondary resource in sorc points.

And maybe Blindness just is the right choice
When upcasted, it can affect a lot of foes

Maybe you do a careful hypnotic pattern then a 5th level blind the next turn for 4 targets

Encounter can be mopped up by the martials at that point

bendking

2019-07-18, 04:07 AM

Even with that spell list in mind, why do you think this Sorcerer shouldn't be using his metamagic to augment his spells?

What exactly does he gain by not using these metamagic options? How is it a realistic example when you're deliberately leaving out the feature that allows the Sorcerer to have versatility over other spellcasters.

I was leaving out the Twinned Firebolt combo because it's a bad use of SP if you're planning to have more than one fight in the day.
I don't see the point of comparing a front-loading Sorcerer to a Wizard since in most games and most days you wouldn't front-load all your Sorcery Points in one fight.

Note, my turn example was showing how with a similar resource cost, a sorcerer can frontload the effects they put out

You quicken the synaptic static and then twin firebolts on weakened targets to nab two kills immediately

Actions early in a fight are inherantly more valuable than later in a fight. So if that early nova nabs kills in this example, you don't have to cast fireball turn after turn down the line. And in the end you end up saving slots at the cost of your secondary resource in sorc points.

And maybe Blindness just is the right choice
When upcasted, it can affect a lot of foes

Maybe you do a careful hypnotic pattern then a 5th level blind the next turn for 4 targets

Encounter can be mopped up by the martials at that point

Alright, I'm not sure using 3 SP just to pump out a couple of 2d10 at rays which might not hit at level 10 is a good use of your SP, but let's say I agree that it is earlier in the fight due to the value of early nova kills (which is already kind of a stretch).

Now, let's look at this again more favorably for the Sorcerer, but also for the Wizard who we neglected to include a School for.
I'm not going to use twinned firebolt every turn because it is a pretty big waste of SP, instead I will upcast Blindness:
An Evocation Wizard spends turn 1 on Hypnotic Pattern, turn 2 on Synaptic Static, turn 3 on Vitriolic Sphere, turn 4 on Vitriolic Sphere, turn 5 on Vitriolic Sphere, turn 6 on Fireball, turn 7 on Fireball, turn 8 on Fireball...
A Sorcerer spends turn 1 on Careful Hypnotic Pattern, turn 2 on Quickened Empowered Synaptic Static + Twinned Firebolt, turn 3 on Upcasted Blindness, turn 4 on Upcasted Blindness, turn 5 on Upcasted Blindness, turn 6 on Upcasted Blindness, turn 7 on Upcasted Blindness, turn 8 on Upcasted Blindness...

You'll notice I added Vitriolic Sphere because a Wizard can easily afford it by level 10.
It is very likely he'll have them both lying around as leftovers.

This still doesn't look very good for the Sorcerer, does it?
@ProsecutorGodot If you intend to criticize this attack routine, please offer an alternative. We can do this all day but it'd go much quicker if you just offered your own superior spell list and attack routine.

ProsecutorGodot

2019-07-18, 04:50 AM

I was leaving out the Twinned Firebolt combo because it's a bad use of SP if you're planning to have more than one fight in the day.
I don't see the point of comparing a front-loading Sorcerer to a Wizard since in most games and most days you wouldn't front-load all your Sorcery Points in one fight.

How do you figure it's a bad use of Sorcery points? It only costs 1 sorcery point. Is it better for the Wizard to use all of their 3rd level spells in one fight, how is that not frontloading?

Twinning Firebolt is often going to be stronger than simply casting a 1st level spell (especially post 11), so you can instead just spend those 1st level slots to regain sorcery points and cast another cantrip. You could even give up just one 2nd level spell for an additional 2 twins of Firebolt, that's potentially 4d10 more damage.

TheUser

2019-07-18, 04:57 AM

TheUser, i'm curious what you'd think of this houserule when using Spell Points: 'You can cast spells of any given level a number of times up to your proficiency bonus'

As in, up until level 5 you can only cast two spells of each level, a third up until level 9, four until level 13, five until 17 and six from there. Puts a hard cap on how many times you can spam the highest slot available to you.

Edit: This would bite at low levels, level 2 specifically. Hmm, maybe only implement it after you leave Tier 1.

It struck me as simple and elegant at first glance but after some deeper thought,
It does seem problematic at levels 1-4 like you said. It presents almost identically to slots levels 5-12 and then a little strong at 13-19 and is a straight up nerf at level 20 when the sorcerer and their simulacrum can "power battery"

The biggest gripe over and over seems to be that Sorcerers aren't Wizards.

Pages and pages of detailed analysis on just what exactly a wizard gets that sorcerers do not.

"Look at a wizards potential in these areas and how much they dwarf Sorcerers."

To which I say:

Given enough time in the presence of subtle spell and a creative player nobody will ever again think twice about the limitations of a sorcerer vs a wizard.

Feel free to quote me on that.

The amount of shenanigans I have beheld from this one metamagic puts the ball firmly in the sorcerer's court for me. Until maybe level 13-16 but that's a very trim area of dominance.

Wizards are extremely potent, but a head being dunked in water, a garrote string round the neck or even just a simple hand cupped over the mouth turns that demigod into just another dude getting wrestled to the ground. Even a stolen spellbook will make a player start stressing out. If you've ever played D&D as war (as opposed to D&D as sport) you'll understand. If the opportunity to play with people in or previously involved in the army (especially ground forces), presents itself I highly reccommend you take that opportunity.

Playing with army dudes showed me the cruelty of combat and the cunning of the enemy. Wizards are powerful but very vulnerable, whereas a subtle sorcerer shores up a handful of the more rudimentary means for completely shutting down casters.
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"The **** do you mean you took 3 mastiffs with your starting gold!? Oh wow they sniff out traps, keep watch while you sleep and distract enemies in combat....trained to go for the throat on casters you say?"

bendking

2019-07-18, 05:43 AM

How do you figure it's a bad use of Sorcery points? It only costs 1 sorcery point. Is it better for the Wizard to use all of their 3rd level spells in one fight, how is that not frontloading?

Twinning Firebolt is often going to be stronger than simply casting a 1st level spell (especially post 11), so you can instead just spend those 1st level slots to regain sorcery points and cast another cantrip. You could even give up just one 2nd level spell for an additional 2 twins of Firebolt, that's potentially 4d10 more damage.

@ProsecutorGodot If you intend to criticize this attack routine, please offer an alternative. We can do this all day but it'd go much quicker if you just offered your own superior spell list and attack routine.

I'm not about to make incremental changes to the attack routine until your satisfied as that's a waste of both of ours time. Just offer an alternative.

ProsecutorGodot

2019-07-18, 05:52 AM

I'm not about to make incremental changes to the attack routine until your satisfied as that's a waste of both of ours time. Just offer an alternative.
I agree with what Geist posted, that should be clear by now. You've done nothing to convince me that a small investment to Twin Fire Bolt isn't worthwhile and your only argument saying that it isn't is "it just isn't". Forgive me for not being persuaded.

Why isn't it? What would you be doing instead with those sorcery points? He took Twin/Quicken metamagic to use it not look at it longingly on his character sheet.

If you make a claim that something isn't worthwhile, you should offer an alternative with better value. All you offered was a Sorcerer completely ignoring their metamagic, claiming "it isn't worth using".

Why is it not worth Twinning Fire Bolt, I think it is, why do you disagree?

bendking

2019-07-18, 06:01 AM

I agree with what Geist posted, that should be clear by now. You've done nothing to convince me that a small investment to Twin Fire Bolt isn't worthwhile and your only argument saying that it isn't is "it just isn't". Forgive me for not being persuaded.

Why isn't it? What would you be doing instead with those sorcery points? He took Twin/Quicken metamagic to use it not look at it longingly on his character sheet.

If you make a claim that something isn't worthwhile, you should offer an alternative with better value. All you offered was a Sorcerer completely ignoring their metamagic, claiming "it isn't worth using".

Why is it not worth Twinning Fire Bolt, I think it is, why do you disagree?

Fine, since you won't offer an alternative let me offer another one:
An Evocation Wizard spends turn 1 on Hypnotic Pattern, turn 2 on Synaptic Static, turn 3 on Vitriolic Sphere, turn 4 on Vitriolic Sphere, turn 5 on Vitriolic Sphere, turn 6 on Fireball, turn 7 on Fireball, turn 8 on Fireball...
A Sorcerer spends turn 1 on Careful Hypnotic Pattern, turn 2 on Quickened Empowered Synaptic Static + Twinned Firebolt, turn 3 on Quickened Upcasted Blindness + Twinned Firebolt, turn 4 on Quickened Upcasted Blindness + regular Firebolt, turn 5 on Upcasted Blindness, turn 6 on Upcasted Blindness, turn 7 on Upcasted Blindness, turn 8 on Upcasted Blindness...

This still doesn't look good for the Sorcerer. Wouldn't you agree a guaranteed damage Vitriolic Sphere/Fireball is superior to an Upcasted Blindness targetting the strongest save monsters usually have, plus a couple of 2d10 which might not hit?
This doesn't even take into account that you just burned out the Sorcerer's whole usage of Metamagic & spell recovery for the day, and that the Wizard still has Arcane Recovery left.

Trickery

2019-07-18, 06:57 AM

The biggest gripe over and over seems to be that Sorcerers aren't Wizards.

Cent speak for others, but my personal issue is just the opposite. Sorcerers are too much like Wizards. The class needs an identity of its own that isn't just the Metamagic tricks that player decides to use.

I only bring up Wizards in response to balance concerns. I do it to show that any reasonable change to Sorcerer is not going to result in them replacing Wizards. But I'm not that interested in fine details of game balance anyway, just big picture stuff. The DM will handle the fine details in the moment better than we can on paper.

Bobthewizard

2019-07-18, 07:23 AM

Fine, since you won't offer an alternative let me offer another one:
An Evocation Wizard spends turn 1 on Hypnotic Pattern, turn 2 on Synaptic Static, turn 3 on Vitriolic Sphere, turn 4 on Vitriolic Sphere, turn 5 on Vitriolic Sphere, turn 6 on Fireball, turn 7 on Fireball, turn 8 on Fireball...
A Sorcerer spends turn 1 on Careful Hypnotic Pattern, turn 2 on Quickened Empowered Synaptic Static + Twinned Firebolt, turn 3 on Quickened Upcasted Blindness + Twinned Firebolt, turn 4 on Quickened Upcasted Blindness + regular Firebolt, turn 5 on Upcasted Blindness, turn 6 on Upcasted Blindness, turn 7 on Upcasted Blindness, turn 8 on Upcasted Blindness...

This still doesn't look good for the Sorcerer. Wouldn't you agree a guaranteed damage Vitriolic Sphere/Fireball is superior to an Upcasted Blindness targetting the strongest save monsters usually have, plus a couple of 2d10 which might not hit?
This doesn't even take into account that you just burned out the Sorcerer's whole usage of Metamagic & spell recovery for the day, and that the Wizard still has Arcane Recovery left.

I think the sorcerer wins hands down in your example. You almost never use damage AOE after casting Hypnotic Pattern. Also I've never been in a combat where indiscriminate AOE was still useful after round 2. Everybody is intermingled and you are probably getting targeted. Blindness/cantrip combo is way better than Synaptic static, vitriolic sphere, and fireball in 99% of combats after round 2. After round 1-2, your job is mostly to not get hit so the Hypnotic Pattern stays up and the martials can clean things up. Wizard has to choose one of Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern to cast before melee starts. Sorcerer can cast Fireball first and then cast a careful Hypnotic Pattern once melee starts, along with cantrips every round if they want.

As far as Wizards getting more spells to prepare, at level 11 they have 16 vs. the Sorcerer's 11. But the Wizard is expected to take more utility spells - Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Detect Thoughts, See Invisibility, Feather Fall, Fly, Dimension Door, Arcane Eye - so they don't really have any more combat spells. I may be more likely to take Misty Step and Mirror Image as a Wizard but that's about it for combat. So the Wizard is more versatile out of combat but the Sorcerer is much better in combat. There is no reason to buff a Sorcerer in combat.

ProsecutorGodot

2019-07-18, 07:42 AM

Fine, since you won't offer an alternative let me offer another one:
An Evocation Wizard spends turn 1 on Hypnotic Pattern, turn 2 on Synaptic Static, turn 3 on Vitriolic Sphere, turn 4 on Vitriolic Sphere, turn 5 on Vitriolic Sphere, turn 6 on Fireball, turn 7 on Fireball, turn 8 on Fireball...
A Sorcerer spends turn 1 on Careful Hypnotic Pattern, turn 2 on Quickened Empowered Synaptic Static + Twinned Firebolt, turn 3 on Quickened Upcasted Blindness + Twinned Firebolt, turn 4 on Quickened Upcasted Blindness + regular Firebolt, turn 5 on Upcasted Blindness, turn 6 on Upcasted Blindness, turn 7 on Upcasted Blindness, turn 8 on Upcasted Blindness...

This still doesn't look good for the Sorcerer. Wouldn't you agree a guaranteed damage Vitriolic Sphere/Fireball is superior to an Upcasted Blindness targetting the strongest save monsters usually have, plus a couple of 2d10 which might not hit?
This doesn't even take into account that you just burned out the Sorcerer's whole usage of Metamagic & spell recovery for the day, and that the Wizard still has Arcane Recovery left.

Firstly, your Sorcerer in this example has 4 metamagics. You only get 3 of them at 10th level. Second, What kind of ridiculous idea do you have in your head that you would have to be casting an upcasted blindness every single turn. Are you honestly taking the statement "Blindness might be the right choice" as "Blindness is the only choice"? Of course I can't flatout say that upcasting blindness for 6 turns is better than fireball, the comparison is insane.

The Sorcerer can also know Vitriolic Sphere and Fireball. Even with all of those spells we've listed for the Sorcerer they know 6 more spells.

Third, this Sorcerer is not spent on resources. The metamagics used only add up to 9 spent SP (Taking into account the unusable Empowered Metamagic). Since you upcasted Blindness each time (I counted 6 castings from highest to lowest slot) that sorcerer still has all of their 1st and 2nd level slots remaining. That's 10 potential Sorcery Points, 11 including the unspent point.

The Wizard has spent all of their high level spells (including a magical fourth 3rd level slot), all the way down to 2nd level. They can only recover 1 spell slot, since they didn't expend a 2nd level slot to pair with the expended 3rd. Gods forbid the Wizard doesn't receive a short rest between encounters, then he'd really be tapped. The Sorcerer has the option to recover that 5th level spell slot even during combat, he could have spent all those Blindness turns with his BA converting spell slots.

Frankly they look about even in terms of what's left resource wise, however the Sorcerer is a lot more flexible in what he can do with his remaining spell slots and sorcery points. He could regain a 5th level slot and be on par with the Wizard, he could hold all of those points to Twin or Quicken cantrips (likely outpacing the Wizards remaining low level spells) or he could get a few 3rd level slots back and cast more fireballs than the wizard.

So no, the Sorcerer doesn't look all that much worse than the Wizard in this case. That's even despite the errors in favor of the Wizard and in opposition to the Sorcerer.

bendking

2019-07-18, 08:00 AM

I think the sorcerer wins hands down in your example. You almost never use damage AOE after casting Hypnotic Pattern. Also I've never been in a combat where indiscriminate AOE was still useful after round 2. Everybody is intermingled and you are probably getting targeted. Blindness/cantrip combo is way better than Synaptic static, vitriolic sphere, and fireball in 99% of combats after round 2. After round 1-2, your job is mostly to not get hit so the Hypnotic Pattern stays up and the martials can clean things up. Wizard has to choose one of Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern to cast before melee starts. Sorcerer can cast Fireball first and then cast a careful Hypnotic Pattern once melee starts, along with cantrips every round if they want.

As far as Wizards getting more spells to prepare, at level 11 they have 16 vs. the Sorcerer's 11. But the Wizard is expected to take more utility spells - Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Detect Thoughts, See Invisibility, Feather Fall, Fly, Dimension Door, Arcane Eye - so they don't really have any more combat spells. I may be more likely to take Misty Step and Mirror Image as a Wizard but that's about it for combat. So the Wizard is more versatile out of combat but the Sorcerer is much better in combat. There is no reason to buff a Sorcerer in combat.

The Wizard was an Evoker, he has Scult Spell, and you can just as easily replace Hypnotic Pattern with Slow. And the fact the Wizard can afford preparing Fireball & Vitriolic sphere just in case he wants to shine in combat, while the Sorcerer can't fit those in his spell-list without missing out on other good stuff is the issue here.
This is the problem with you guys not offering a replacement. It'd be so much easier if you just offered your own spell list and action routine, but instead you choose to only criticise without offering replacement so we are just going back and forth wasting everyone's time.

Firstly, your Sorcerer in this example has 4 metamagics. You only get 3 of them at 10th level. Second, What kind of ridiculous idea do you have in your head that you would have to be casting an upcasted blindness every single turn. Are you honestly taking the statement "Blindness might be the right choice" as "Blindness is the only choice"? Of course I can't flatout say that upcasting blindness for 6 turns is better than fireball, the comparison is insane.

The Sorcerer can also know Vitriolic Sphere and Fireball. Even with all of those spells we've listed for the Sorcerer they know 6 more spells.

Third, this Sorcerer is not spent on resources. The metamagics used only add up to 9 spent SP (Taking into account the unusable Empowered Metamagic). Since you upcasted Blindness each time (I counted 6 castings from highest to lowest slot) that sorcerer still has all of their 1st and 2nd level slots remaining. That's 10 potential Sorcery Points, 11 including the unspent point.

The Wizard has spent all of their high level spells (including a magical fourth 3rd level slot), all the way down to 2nd level. They can only recover 1 spell slot, since they didn't expend a 2nd level slot to pair with the expended 3rd. Gods forbid the Wizard doesn't receive a short rest between encounters, then he'd really be tapped. The Sorcerer has the option to recover that 5th level spell slot even during combat, he could have spent all those Blindness turns with his BA converting spell slots.

Frankly they look about even in terms of what's left resource wise, however the Sorcerer is a lot more flexible in what he can do with his remaining spell slots and sorcery points. He could regain a 5th level slot and be on par with the Wizard, he could hold all of those points to Twin or Quicken cantrips (likely outpacing the Wizards remaining low level spells) or he could get a few 3rd level slots back and cast more fireballs than the wizard.

So no, the Sorcerer doesn't look all that much worse than the Wizard in this case. That's even despite the errors in favor of the Wizard and in opposition to the Sorcerer.

Please, just offer a decent spell list and an action routine. This is seriously getting old.
You say a Sorcerer can have both Vitriolic Sphere and Fireball. Go ahead. Show me a spell list in which he includes them both that isn't bad.
You say you wouldn't cast Blindness every turn, then what would you and how would you fit it in your spell list?

I'm not going to keep doing this back & forth, constantly adjusting my spell list and action routine.
Just offer an alternative.

ProsecutorGodot

2019-07-18, 08:05 AM

Please, just offer a decent spell list and an action routine. This is seriously getting old.
You say a Sorcerer can have both Vitriolic Sphere and Fireball. Go ahead. Show me a spell list in which he includes them both that isn't bad.
You say you wouldn't cast Blindness every turn, then what would you and how would you fit it in your spell list?

I'm not going to keep doing this back & forth, constantly adjusting my spell list and action routine.
Just offer an alternative.

I did, it's the one where they can have Blindness, Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Vitriolic Sphere, Synaptic Static and 6 other spells of their choice. Careful not to call this spell list bad because it's just a slightly smaller version of that Wizards prepared spells.

Hypothetical action routines do nothing, combat isn't always going to be formulaic to the degree that you can have one perfect plan every time. Just like the Sorcerer can't rely on Blindness at all times like you seem to think we're advocating for, a Wizard doesn't end up casting all of their highest level spells in descending order.

I've tried to convince you, you're not having it. I'm not sure anything I've typed out has even registered in your mind at this point.

Master O'Laughs

2019-07-18, 08:07 AM

Ignimortis

2019-07-18, 08:18 AM

ProsecutorGodot

2019-07-18, 08:24 AM

It's a great idea and probably how sorcerer should've worked from the beginning. Uncoupling them from vancian casting introduces some mechanical diversity, too. The fact that high-level sorcerers can suddenly cast high-level spells more often than once or twice per day is also fine IMO - unless you have specific problems in your game that four Meteor Swarms would solve, but one somehow wouldn't.

You're capped at one spell of 6th level or higher per long rest. It's a gigantic swing in power for the mid levels but a slight nerf to high level magic.

Personal experience shows that it did nothing for spell diversity. If anything it only made the party sorcerer cast few different spells, Synaptic Static and Fireball were enough due to how affordable they were.

bendking

2019-07-18, 08:31 AM

I did, it's the one where they can have Blindness, Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Vitriolic Sphere, Synaptic Static and 6 other spells of their choice. Careful not to call this spell list bad because it's just a slightly smaller version of that Wizards prepared spells.

Hypothetical action routines do nothing, combat isn't always going to be formulaic to the degree that you can have one perfect plan every time. Just like the Sorcerer can't rely on Blindness at all times like you seem to think we're advocating for, a Wizard doesn't end up casting all of their highest level spells in descending order.

I've tried to convince you, you're not having it. I'm not sure anything I've typed out has even registered in your mind at this point.

Right, it seems I've been wasting my time, since you refuse to give a full spell list which I could then judge with context. Saying 6 out of 10 spells known isn't enough to judge a spell list.
If you think otherwise... Well, that's fine, I guess.

Trickery

2019-07-18, 08:46 AM

When people say "The wizard is expected to prepare utility spells so they do not actually have more spells for combat as the sorcerer," why do they believe the sorcerer is not trying to know some of those spells as well?

In said party you either have a wizard or a sorcerer, not both. Assuming the only arcane caster, you will need to waste some spells known on those "must haves" like counter spell.

Two points:

The Wizard has enough spells known and rituals to fill the Utility role and another role at the same time. This is because the Wizard learns two spells automatically each level, can learn new ones from scrolls and such, and can cast any ritual it knows without preparing the spell. Some example roles the Wizard can fill on top of utility include controller, support, party face, blaster, summoner, and Batman.
You could have both a Wizard and Sorcerer in the same group. You'd want them to fill different roles, ex: Batman + Blaster.

Nhorianscum

2019-07-18, 09:09 AM

Right, it seems I've been wasting my time, since you refuse to give a full spell list which I could then judge with context. Saying 6 out of 10 spells known isn't enough to judge a spell list.
If you think otherwise... Well, that's fine, I guess.

Stock standard list for Quicken/Subtle/Twinned/x PHB only no sub no multi no level dumping support sorc.

L0: Presdidigitation, Minor Image, Mage hand/Shape water/Friends, damage cantrip x4

L1: Shield, Magic Missile*

L2: Suggestion/Phan Image, Enhance Ability

L3: Counterspell, Flight*, Fireball, Haste

L4: Ddoor, Ginvis/Poly

L5: Wall of Stone, Animate objects/Telekinisis

L6: Mass suggestion

L7: Revgrav

L8: Empty

L9: Wish

*Flight and MM can be swapped for whatever. I just put flight on here to have it in a theoretical whiteroom party with no sub.

This is horribly unrealistic as at 20 we normally have access to between 20 and 25 spells "known" along with a slew of sub features but for the sake of sanity here's the bare bones.

Talsin

2019-07-18, 09:30 AM

Two points:

The Wizard has enough spells known and rituals to fill the Utility role and another role at the same time. This is because the Wizard learns two spells automatically each level, can learn new ones from scrolls and such, and can cast any ritual it knows without preparing the spell. Some example roles the Wizard can fill on top of utility include controller, support, party face, blaster, summoner, and Batman.
You could have both a Wizard and Sorcerer in the same group. You'd want them to fill different roles, ex: Batman + Blaster.

If the Wizard fills so many niches, would it be reasonable then to nerf the wizard?
Cut down the # of spells a Wizard can prepare to the same as a sorcerer, what do you think would happen?
Does it curtail their utility so much more that they cannot fill the same number of roles? Would that open things up for the Sorcerer if there were one of each in a group?

TheUser

2019-07-18, 10:20 AM

Ok let's do the list shall we?
Your first was a Wild Mage with Quicken, Empower and Twinned.

Here's my list:
1. Shield, Mage Armor, Absorb Elements.
2. Web
3. Fireball, Haste, Counter Spell or Dispel Magic (depending on your group, both spells should be present).
4. Polymorph, Greater Invis, DDoor
5. Telekinesis, and Dominate Person.

Dominate Person with Twinned and Quickened can be exceptionally mean. You spend an action controlling two humanoids fully and then quicken out spells. It's -very- energy intensive but will quash encounters fast if humanoids are involved. Bend luck to make it stick better. If there's very little in the ways of humanoids take Lightning Bolt or Animate Objects.

With spell points we'd drop Web, Haste (If a paldin or rogue is part of the group it makes more sense to keep it) and Fireball.

We'd take Animate Objects, Synaptic Static and Lightning Bolt. Why? Because we have psychic-int-save-fireball and can use it very liberally but without careful spell we can't afford friendly fire so Lightning Bolt becomes very important. Haste is there normally because it's efficient but now we don't need to worry about that either so we just twin Greater Invis or polymorph all the time until the enemies can see invis in which case we dominate, and if they aren't human we animate objects. Bosses with Legendary saves get telekinesis grappled. When polymorph stops being a DPR upgrade for our friends (very soon) we swap it to Enervate or Hold Monster (Twinned Enervate with Quicken is some fun stuff; if you have allies that can Restrain it's 100% worthwhile).

New spell list with spell points:
1. Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements
2. (Nothing)
3. Lightning Bolt, Counter/Dispel
4. Polymorph, Greater Invis
5. Animate Objects, Dominate Person, Synaptic Static, Telekinesis

We have answers for everything and even though there's concentration glut we can cast non-concentration spells to our heart's content so having a limited number of non-concentration is now meaningless.

This is a sub-optimal load-out of metamagics+class but I did the best with what I had.

You might also be thinking "Gee, this build burns out fast." Ayup. You can conserve slots with your many concentration spells or twinning cantrips. (Double Polymorph rolls over non-deadly encounters btw).

Does the potential for this seem fair and balanced?

Talsin

2019-07-18, 10:45 AM

Does the potential for this seem fair and balanced?

How difficult was it for you to pick these lists? Are there any choices you think are pretty variable, or are all the choices pretty set-in to fill for circumstances that need to be addressed?

TheUser

2019-07-18, 10:55 AM

How difficult was it for you to pick these lists? Are there any choices you think are pretty variable, or are all the choices pretty set-in to fill for circumstances that need to be addressed?

Lots of variability I'd say. Animate Objects and Wall of Fire are always on the table so far as I am concerned. Twinned Empowered Blight is good for single target.

Cone of Cold is fun and easy to spam.
Twinned Stoneskin is a nice alternative to Greater Invis if your team can't capitalize on being invisible too well or needs some good physical mitigation.

Thunderstep is a cool alternative to dimension door too.

Talsin

2019-07-18, 11:00 AM

Lots of variability I'd say. Animate Objects and Wall of Fire are always on the table so far as I am concerned. Twinned Empowered Blight is good for single target.

Cone of Cold is fun and easy to spam.
Twinned Stoneskin is a nice alternative to Greater Invis if your team can't capitalize on being invisible too well or needs some good physical mitigation.

Thunderstep is a cool alternative to dimension door too.

So you're saying that even having a list of spells known/prepared that is less than any other caster at the same level was not hampering your decisions overall - there aren't a large number of "I need this spell regardless of build" choices? Would you say that having more choices would make the sorcerer more powerful, more utilitarian, something else?

Trickery

2019-07-18, 11:05 AM

If the Wizard fills so many niches, would it be reasonable then to nerf the wizard?
Cut down the # of spells a Wizard can prepare to the same as a sorcerer, what do you think would happen?
Does it curtail their utility so much more that they cannot fill the same number of roles? Would that open things up for the Sorcerer if there were one of each in a group?

I don't think that's the right approach. I think the real issue is that Sorcerer and Wizard are too similar.

Counterexample: Barbarian and Fighter. Both can do competent melee damage and are beefy, but Fighter can also handle ranged damage. In fact, Fighter has enough features and bonus ASIs to handle both ranged and melee damage on the same build.

So, what gives. Is the Fighter OP compared to the Barbarian. No. We all know that the Fighter is not OP. No. In fact, the Fighter and Barbarian are sufficiently different that we don't consider one to be universally better than the other.

With Sorcerers, their defining feature is Metamagic. If we took that away from them and we took away the Wizard's additional spells known, we'd basically have the same class - but one would have an inferior spell list. That's no good. If we go back to our Fighter and Barbarian example, if we took away the Fighter's Action Surge and the Barbarian's Rage, the classes would still be quite different from each other due to all of their unique features.

Sorcerer is where the issue is. We don't need to nerf Wizards to be more like Sorcerers or buff Sorcerers to be more like Wizards. The Wizard is popular and plays well. The Sorcerer is unpopular and relies heavily on its one defining feature. We should differentiate the Sorcerer.

Nagog

2019-07-18, 11:09 AM

The sorcery points are there, but you are lacking substantial interactions between them and your higher level spells as far as I can tell. Wizards get better spells during all levels of play, but early on I have to show some things in response (stuff like twinning a haste or using a careful hypnotic pattern). It doesn't matter that wizards will have a bigger arsenal and better spells, because I can specialize enough to be the best in a couple of things that actually make for some very effective tactics. But as I level up more and more, I am stuck with the same mid level tricks. And I wouldn't say that they are bad, even for high level play, but imo they don't make up for all the strong spells a wizard starts getting, not to mention that they get a plethora of them. Sorcerers are great specialists in buffing and debuffing at early/mid level play, but then they stop getting spells that synergize significantly well with metamagic, or so I think. So they start lagging behind. If that's the case (and I say if, because there could very well be such combos that I haven't thought or heard of), then the solution would be to get some higher level spells that work well with the various metamagic options. Bottom line, metamagic options is not a bad idea (imo) to set the sorcerer apart from other casters, and their design is not bad for the most part (again, imo). But you need to have spells to make metamagic work, and metamagic has to work well for the sorcerer to be [enter the word of your preference].

I disagree. And that's because...

… to do that, we need strong combinations between metamagic and spells across the various levels of play. If there is a problem at higher level play, the easiest way to fix it, is by designing new spells (with the intention of having said new spells work well with metamagic) and adding them to the sorcerer's list.

Excellent point, I hadn't noticed that!

This is most likely inaccurate, since I just reduced the higher level slots, but just thought I'd include this one to be a bit more fair to the Sorcerer.

Sorcerer burning slots via Font of magic and maximising higher-level slots without using starting Sorcery Points

Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
1
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
1
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
0
0
4
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
0
0
5
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
0
0
0
4
-
-
-
-
-

8th
0
0
0
5
-
-
-
-
-

9th
0
0
1
0
5
-
-
-
-

10th
0
0
0
1
6
-
-
-
-

11th
0
0
0
0
6
1
-
-
-

12th
0
0
0
0
6
1
-
-
-

13th
1
0
0
0
6
1
1
-
-

14th
0
1
0
0
6
1
1
-
-

15th
0
1
0
0
6
1
1
1
-

16th
0
0
1
0
6
1
1
1
-

17th
0
0
0
1
6
1
1
1
1

18th
0
0
0
0
7
1
1
1
1

19th
0
0
0
0
7
2
1
1
1

20th
0
0
0
0
7
2
2
1
1

Very useful! This would be a great tool for a Nova sorcerer with this build, I'll be sure to save it for a rainy day

Sure, the perk exists, but that's a DM giving a player magic items. Spell Scrolls exist in the treasure tables.

If we are counting that, then its just as easy to argue that sorcerers get flexibility through Wands and other spellcasting items.

With the fact that you can use metamagic on spells cast from items, and we have a case where both classes have features that make them stronger recipients of different magic items.

But i don't think its fair to assume one class is rewarded by their DM and the other is not

I feel the difference here is less so of spells from spell scrolls and more on copying from enemy Wizard's spellbooks, so a smart player for a Wizard could nab a defeated enemy Wizard's spellbook and copy their spells over to their own, so if the DM had the enemy Wizard using spells like Gaseous Form or Counterspell (more likely Counterspell because it's darn useful), the party's Wizard has it upon defeating them (and paying the requisite costs to copy it over)

GeistInMachine

2019-07-18, 11:16 AM

I feel the difference here is less so of spells from spell scrolls and more on copying from enemy Wizard's spellbooks, so a smart player for a Wizard could nab a 2 enemy Wizard's spellbook and copy their spells over to their own, so if the DM had the enemy Wizard using spells like Gaseous Form or Counterspell (more likely Counterspell because it's darn useful), the party's Wizard has it upon defeating them (and paying the requisite costs to copy it over)

Having it be a wizard with a book is still the gift here. If the enemy had a Wand that dropped for a sorcerer its basically the same thing.

DM is deciding what loot has the potential to drop. Seeding a enemy Wizard is as much a gift as an enemy with a magic sword, an enemy sorcerer with a wand, or the enemy cleric with magic plate armor

patchyman

2019-07-18, 11:49 AM

They also need an identity. Their origins are supposed to be the source of their magic, but the origins can barely even be called specialties. They don't really do much to push the Sorcerer in a direction.

1000%. This is where I feel 5th ed has failed Sorcerers the most. Metamagic encourages players to choose spells that match their Metamagics, not their origins, and (with the limited exception of Draconic and Storm) their origins don’t encourage them to choose any spells.

Shadow sorcerers look on the list of Warlock spells with envy. Wild sorcerers have about 5 spells that work with their theme, and apart Chaos Bolt, none of them work particularly well with their origin. Draconic sorcerer is a subclass despite dragons not being spellcasters in this edition. The whole thing seems lazy and half-assed.

Talsin

2019-07-18, 11:56 AM

I don't think that's the right approach. I think the real issue is that Sorcerer and Wizard are too similar.

Counterexample: Barbarian and Fighter. Both can do competent melee damage and are beefy, but Fighter can also handle ranged damage. In fact, Fighter has enough features and bonus ASIs to handle both ranged and melee damage on the same build.

So, what gives. Is the Fighter OP compared to the Barbarian. No. We all know that the Fighter is not OP. No. In fact, the Fighter and Barbarian are sufficiently different that we don't consider one to be universally better than the other.

With Sorcerers, their defining feature is Metamagic. If we took that away from them and we took away the Wizard's additional spells known, we'd basically have the same class - but one would have an inferior spell list. That's no good. If we go back to our Fighter and Barbarian example, if we took away the Fighter's Action Surge and the Barbarian's Rage, the classes would still be quite different from each other due to all of their unique features.

Sorcerer is where the issue is. We don't need to nerf Wizards to be more like Sorcerers or buff Sorcerers to be more like Wizards. The Wizard is popular and plays well. The Sorcerer is unpopular and relies heavily on its one defining feature. We should differentiate the Sorcerer.

So then lets look at Barbarian vs Fighter a little more to see what kinds of differences they had done to make them distinct, yet equitable.

Fighter seems like more the wizard equivalent in the comparison - it's more of a generalist than the Barbarian (I can go into detail on that if needed).
Barbarian gets Unarmored Defense, Reckless Attack, Rage, Danger Sense, Faster Movement, Feral Instinct, Brutal Criticals, Indomitable Might, a larger hit die, & a capstone that buffs them very well. Would we say that Rage is the primary factor in what makes a barbarian? Along their leveling they get an increase in the frequency of raging, damage bonus from raging, a further bonus to survivability while raging, and a bonus to keeping rage going. This, all with Subclasses that build on rage even more.

Let's compare this kind of focus with Sorcerer a little...

Sorcerer leveling increases the frequency one can use metamagic by an increase in sorcery points to 5x their starting quantity at level 10. Additionally, the capability of metamagic increases by more than 50% at level 10, despite having 3 metamagic options instead of 2. This comes from having more spells available with-which to work metamagic on - Barbarians don't exactly get newfangled ways to smash their opponents, but they do get buffs and bonuses to the effectiveness of their rage. Would it be reasonable to say these can be considered a roughly equivalent boon - I think so. So what then do Barbarians get that Sorcerers don't? Subclass benefits to their primary mechanic. This is one of the reasons I like your homebrew - it addresses this shortcoming. Though I think I would do this a little differently, I would perhaps give each subclass 1 or 2 unique metamagics that tie in with their theme. (while also considering a removal of Arcane Recovery from Wizard because I envision a sorcerer having more juice to either cast more or do metamagic).

These are being thought up on the fly, and may need better balancing.

Draconic Might: When you cast a spell that does your heritage's elemental damage, you can maximize the damage for 3 sorcery points
Draconic Aura: When you cast a spell, you can create an aura of fear like a dragon for 2 sorcery points: Creatures you choose within 30 feet of you make a Wisdom save against your Spell DC or be frightened for 1 round. Dragons and Creatures immune fear are unaffected by this effect.

Chaotic Magics: 1 SP to roll twice on the wild magic table. Choose 1 effect to be applied to one target affected by your spell.
Wild Power: 3SP to roll a D6 and flip a coin. On a heads, add the value of D6 to the DC or Attack bonus of your spell. On Tails, heal for a value of the spell level x half the d6 value. (idunno, I wanted something)

Consider these as examples of what I mean. Does that seem like a good, appropriate way to buff Sorc, while separating them from Wizard, yet giving them more of niche to fill? Any other ideas for stuff like this?

Talsin

2019-07-18, 11:59 AM

My concern with what I offered above, is that I fear there aren't enough Sorcery Points to go around, although many classes seem to work fine with similar resource restrictions.

Trickery

2019-07-18, 12:06 PM

My concern with what I offered above, is that I fear there aren't enough Sorcery Points to go around, although many classes seem to work fine with similar resource restrictions.

If we add sorcery point-based Metamagic unique to each origin, there probably won't be enough Sorcery Points to go around at most levels. With my homebrew, I added one unique magical, Metamagic-like thing that each origin could freely do (seeing through its spells, small healing when using sorcery points, changing damage types to match draconic type, etc.).

I think that's the approach to take. We don't want to create more features that compete for Sorcery Points if we want players to actually use the new features.

Talsin

2019-07-18, 12:15 PM

If we add sorcery point-based Metamagic unique to each origin, there probably won't be enough Sorcery Points to go around at most levels. With my homebrew, I added one unique magical, Metamagic-like thing that each origin could freely do (seeing through its spells, small healing when using sorcery points, changing damage types to match draconic type, etc.).

I think that's the approach to take. We don't want to create more features that compete for Sorcery Points if we want players to actually use the new features.

How about this on top:

Give Sorcs an appropriately themed Arcane Recovery.
Additional sorcery point equal to CHA bonus.
and
SP can only be used for metamagic.

Makes sure they can still cast, but also makes metamagic more directly relevant to casting if you want your value.

Nhorianscum

2019-07-18, 12:23 PM

Talsin

2019-07-18, 12:29 PM

I feel like a lot of posters here are missing a few key points.

1: The trick to enjoying sorc as is and the trick to getting the most out of it gameplay wise is simple. Accept that you are a hammer and the world is a nail. Any problem not solved by hitting that nail normally can be solved by hitting that nail really, really, hard.

2: Hitting the nail really really hard costs effort. Who cares. Hammer hits nail.

3: Sorc and wizard have... wish? Sorc has more in common with druid. Apples are apples and hammers are hammers.

4: Subclass is actually super impactful on spell choice and metamagic. More so than any other class due to the limited pool. The combination of metamagic, spells, and origin is what makes each sorc distinct for better or worse. (Then we consider multi's and the class goes nuts but that's not significant here)

5: The entire debate seems based on the fallacy of loss with those engaged in the fallacy being dissatisfied with the class and hammer hits nail players ignoring the fallacy entirely. If you can't just punch things really really hard with your Magical Competency Hammer I'd advise not touching this, class as no fix adequately addresses this core issue.

I think your argument is itself fallacious: The trick to enjoying sorcerer isn't necessarily that you are a hammer in a nail-world. This may be why other people are still debating.

Talsin

2019-07-18, 12:43 PM

I feel like a lot of posters here are missing a few key points.

1: The trick to enjoying sorc as is and the trick to getting the most out of it gameplay wise is simple. Accept that you are a hammer and the world is a nail. Any problem not solved by hitting that nail normally can be solved by hitting that nail really, really, hard.

2: Hitting the nail really really hard costs effort. Who cares. Hammer hits nail.

3: Sorc and wizard have... wish? Sorc has more in common with druid. Apples are apples and hammers are hammers.

4: Subclass is actually super impactful on spell choice and metamagic. More so than any other class due to the limited pool. The combination of metamagic, spells, and origin is what makes each sorc distinct for better or worse. (Then we consider multi's and the class goes nuts but that's not significant here)

5: The entire debate seems based on the fallacy of loss with those engaged in the fallacy being dissatisfied with the class and hammer hits nail players ignoring the fallacy entirely. If you can't just punch things really really hard with your Magical Competency Hammer I'd advise not touching this, class as no fix adequately addresses this core issue.

I should address this post more seriously.
For those who see Hammer hits Nail as the primary purpose of a sorcerer, we have in many ways already discussed that other classes perform the hammer hits nail method with less effort or in a more hammery way. In other words, there are better hammers than sorcerer that come with other stuff too. What I see people trying to do here, however, is make Sorcerer a better hammer on its own to make it more distinct from other classes, in ways that make a hammer-hits-nail philosophy more attracted to the sorcerer as a choice among other. A way for the hammer to be a bigger hammer, or harder hammer, and better at hammering hammer, or faster hammer.

Bobthewizard

2019-07-18, 12:53 PM

How about this on top:

Give Sorcs an appropriately themed Arcane Recovery.
Additional sorcery point equal to CHA bonus.
and
SP can only be used for metamagic.

Makes sure they can still cast, but also makes metamagic more directly relevant to casting if you want your value.

I like this a lot just by itself. It makes sorcerers more of what makes them different without just making them more like wizards or giving them more higher level spell slots. It also gives them an incentive to take a short rest.

Nhorianscum

2019-07-18, 03:00 PM

I should address this post more seriously.
For those who see Hammer hits Nail as the primary purpose of a sorcerer, we have in many ways already discussed that other classes perform the hammer hits nail method with less effort or in a more hammery way. In other words, there are better hammers than sorcerer that come with other stuff too. What I see people trying to do here, however, is make Sorcerer a better hammer on its own to make it more distinct from other classes, in ways that make a hammer-hits-nail philosophy more attracted to the sorcerer as a choice among other. A way for the hammer to be a bigger hammer, or harder hammer, and better at hammering hammer, or faster hammer.

Nah.

Other classes have a toolbox with all the gubs and a smaller hammer in it. Lots of specific elegant workarounds have been listed to make other things outperform big hammer. As they should. But at the end of the day....

Sorc has a REALLY BIG HAMMER. We swing big hammer. Big hammer in this case being metamagic/upcasting from the largest raw pool of casting in the game. It's inelegant yes. It also works on every single problem, accepting that inelegance is hammer hits nail.

Making the hammer bigger will not make it not a hammer. Making the hammer not a hammer means playing a class not named sorcerer.

You are not a hammer person. You are a toolbox person. That's fine. Not every class should be for everyone.

As for proving that another class has a bigger hammer. No. You have proven to toolbox people that the toolbox is a toolbox. The hammer people are still very much convinced our hammer is bigger.

This post is phrased to demonstrate that there are two VERY different conversations happening in this thread... and while I'm pretty sure the hammers get it (we do live in the toolbox) I'm not entirely sure.

Trickery

2019-07-18, 03:20 PM

Nah.

Other classes have a toolbox with all the gubs and a smaller hammer in it. Lots of specific elegant workarounds have been listed to make other things outperform big hammer. As they should. But at the end of the day....

Sorc has a REALLY BIG HAMMER. We swing big hammer. Big hammer in this case being metamagic/upcasting from the largest raw pool of casting in the game. It's inelegant yes. It also works on every single problem, accepting that inelegance is hammer hits nail.

Making the hammer bigger will not make it not a hammer. Making the hammer not a hammer means playing a class not named sorcerer.

You are not a hammer person. You are a toolbox person. That's fine. Not every class should be for everyone.

As for proving that another class has a bigger hammer. No. You have proven to toolbox people that the toolbox is a toolbox. The hammer people are still very much convinced our hammer is bigger.

This post is phrased to demonstrate that there are two VERY different conversations happening in this thread... and while I'm pretty sure the hammers get it (we do live in the toolbox) I'm not entirely sure.

Classes aren't broken down into hammers and toolboxes. When you read the flavor text for a class and see its abilities, you get an idea how what kind of character you could make and what you could do with it. Nothing in the flavor text of the Sorcerer implies that they're a class that "has the biggest hammer." Instead, the implication is that they have unexplained powers tied to a special origin that blessed them with specific abilities. Because their magic is innate, they use it differently from other spellcasters.

The Warlock's features fit that description far better than the Sorcerer's.

I don't really give a damn who has the biggest hammer, who's in the toolbox, where the shed is, what nail we're supposed to be hitting, or any of that crap. I care about players being able to play the class they're trying to play. Sorcerers play nothing like their description would imply. Even worse, if you read their Metamagic features and Font of Magic feature, the ways you initially come up with to use it are completely at odds with what you seem to think is the correct way to do so.

Do you think the average player reading the class realizes that it's a good buffer, that they should dip into Warlock if they want to be a blaster, or that it would be a good idea to Quicken spells like Witch Bolt?

The class mechanics don't fit the fantasy. That's a problem. And it has nothing to do with hammers.

Nhorianscum

2019-07-18, 03:46 PM

Classes aren't broken down into hammers and toolboxes. When you read the flavor text for a class and see its abilities, you get an idea how what kind of character you could make and what you could do with it. Nothing in the flavor text of the Sorcerer implies that they're a class that "has the biggest hammer." Instead, the implication is that they have unexplained powers tied to a special origin that blessed them with specific abilities. Because their magic is innate, they use it differently from other spellcasters.

The Warlock's features fit that description far better than the Sorcerer's.

I don't really give a damn who has the biggest hammer, who's in the toolbox, where the shed is, what nail we're supposed to be hitting, or any of that crap. I care about players being able to play the class they're trying to play. Sorcerers play nothing like their description would imply. Even worse, if you read their Metamagic features and Font of Magic feature, the ways you initially come up with to use it are completely at odds with what you seem to think is the correct way to do so.

Do you think the average player reading the class realizes that it's a good buffer, that they should dip into Warlock if they want to be a blaster, or that it would be a good idea to Quicken spells like Witch Bolt?

The class mechanics don't fit the fantasy. That's a problem. And it has nothing to do with hammers.

Well the PHB does market WM sorc as a support mage. So. Yes?

The mechanics are a hammer. Big, strong, not really technical. With some physical manifestations caused by the bloodline that induced this hammerness. As our flavor is big untrained magic hammer. This matches nicely.

As far as is possible sorc matches flavor to fluff as long as we remember that we are a sorcerer OF a bloodline not a Bloodline Sorcerer.

This is called common sense and I've never actually seen a player take issue with this irl as your basic out of the box "baster" sorc doesn't fall off until late tier 3. Where we have 3 metamagics going on 4 and have had HUNDREDS of hours in game to learn that sorc is low key a sick BC/social.

So if a new player (and this is the build I recomend to newbies) plays a nukem sorc from level 1 into tier three we wind up with... a BC/Buffer sorc capable of inflicting the "dead" condition.

Similarly if a new player focused on the social side... well good on em buffs and bluffs go together nicely. They'll be a fully fledged BC/Buffer/Social in tier 3

The class does everything it claims to do in fluff and in intended mechanics as much as the spells in 5e allow. Your issues with this will be resolved as splatbooks continue to be issued as they are issues with the ever-expanding-spell-list.

Talsin

2019-07-18, 04:03 PM

Well the PHB does market WM sorc as a support mage. So. Yes?

The mechanics are a hammer. Big, strong, not really technical. With some physical manifestations caused by the bloodline that induced this hammerness. As our flavor is big untrained magic hammer. This matches nicely.

As far as is possible sorc matches flavor to fluff as long as we remember that we are a sorcerer OF a bloodline not a Bloodline Sorcerer.

This is called common sense and I've never actually seen a player take issue with this irl as your basic out of the box "baster" sorc doesn't fall off until late tier 3. Where we have 3 metamagics going on 4 and have had HUNDREDS of hours in game to learn that sorc is low key a sick BC/social.

So if a new player (and this is the build I recomend to newbies) plays a nukem sorc from level 1 into tier three we wind up with... a BC/Buffer sorc capable of inflicting the "dead" condition.

Similarly if a new player focused on the social side... well good on em buffs and bluffs go together nicely. They'll be a fully fledged BC/Buffer/Social in tier 3

The class does everything it claims to do in fluff and in intended mechanics as much as the spells in 5e allow. Your issues with this will be resolved as splatbooks continue to be issued as they are issues with the ever-expanding-spell-list.

So aren't you contradicting yourself then - Claiming that a Hammer sorc will wind up as a buffer in tier 3? As in, they find out that the class isn't really a hammer?

Nhorianscum

2019-07-18, 04:20 PM

So aren't you contradicting yourself then - Claiming that a Hammer sorc will wind up as a buffer in tier 3? As in, they find out that the class isn't really a hammer?

Nope.

The hammer is an analogue for managing problems less efficiently with greater resources used due to limited tools. Burning 10+ points/levels in a round is the hammer.

That's the class. It's got oodles of deep dive technical tricks for veterans, but the hammer is always there as a solution.

Kane0

2019-07-18, 05:04 PM

It struck me as simple and elegant at first glance but after some deeper thought,
It does seem problematic at levels 1-4 like you said. It presents almost identically to slots levels 5-12 and then a little strong at 13-19 and is a straight up nerf at level 20 when the sorcerer and their simulacrum can "power battery"

Given enough time in the presence of subtle spell and a creative player nobody will ever again think twice about the limitations of a sorcerer vs a wizard.
Feel free to quote me on that.

Thanks, I think this warrants further thought and testing.

I suppose over time I've ended up in the position of Metamagic is good, Sorcerers are not.
Sorcerers should have more than just metamagic to their name, but anything you actually give them has to contend with how big a factor metamagic is.

bendking

2019-07-19, 01:28 AM

Stock standard list for Quicken/Subtle/Twinned/x PHB only no sub no multi no level dumping support sorc.

L0: Presdidigitation, Minor Image, Mage hand/Shape water/Friends, damage cantrip x4

L1: Shield, Magic Missile*

L2: Suggestion/Phan Image, Enhance Ability

L3: Counterspell, Flight*, Fireball, Haste

L4: Ddoor, Ginvis/Poly

L5: Wall of Stone, Animate objects/Telekinisis

L6: Mass suggestion

L7: Revgrav

L8: Empty

L9: Wish

*Flight and MM can be swapped for whatever. I just put flight on here to have it in a theoretical whiteroom party with no sub.

This is horribly unrealistic as at 20 we normally have access to between 20 and 25 spells "known" along with a slew of sub features but for the sake of sanity here's the bare bones.

OK, so you didn't grab Mage Armor nor Absorb Elements, and you said I can switch Flight and MM, so I will do that because without Mage Armor & Absorb Elements you will be horribly squishy.
Now, let's look at this new spell-list at level 10 since that was the point of the discussion:

L0: Presdidigitation, Minor Image, Mage hand/Shape water/Friends, damage cantrip x4

L1: Shield, Mage Armor, Absorb Elements

L2: Suggestion/Phan Image, Enhance Ability

L3: Counterspell, Fireball, Haste

L4: Ddoor, Ginvis/Poly

L5: Wall of Stone, Animate objects/Telekinisis

What do you do in battle once your concentrating on a spell? I would assume you'd try to cast Fireball, but you usually after turn 1/2 it's hard to land one without hitting an ally.
All of your other spells are combat spells concentration so I just don't see what you would be doing while concentrating other than Twinned Firebolt.
The one other option I can see is if you casted Telekinesis and have something to do with your action.

My point is that the a simple Evoker Wizard, at level 10, can also squish into this list Blindness, Lightning Bolt, Vitriolic Sphere, Synaptic Static, and be able to land all of these spells without trouble, and thus in practice have a better action economy than your Sorcerer.
EDIT: Even a non-Evoker Wizard is much more likely to be able to land the spells mentioned above, since they have various AoE's. Blindness is guaranteed to land. Lightning Bolt is easier to land than Fireball. Vitriolic Sphere and Synaptic Static have differing AoE's to the other spells.

Feel free to say what your battle routine is since I might be representing it somehow.

Ok let's do the list shall we?
Your first was a Wild Mage with Quicken, Empower and Twinned.

Here's my list:
1. Shield, Mage Armor, Absorb Elements.
2. Web
3. Fireball, Haste, Counter Spell or Dispel Magic (depending on your group, both spells should be present).
4. Polymorph, Greater Invis, DDoor
5. Telekinesis, and Dominate Person.

Same as before: once you're concentrating on a spell, what do you do? Fortunately Telekinesis & Dominate Person offer an outlet for your actions, but once you're out of them you're stuck trying to land Fireballs (again, no easy task after turn 1/2 if you're not an Evocation Wizard) or spamming Twinned Firebolts. See my comment above on what a Wizard can do instead.

Again, I might be missing something, it would have been nice if you guys had included the battle routine in the first place.

Corran

2019-07-19, 02:14 AM

Same as before: once you're concentrating on a spell, what do you do? Fortunately Telekinesis & Dominate Person offer an outlet for your actions, but once you're out of them you're stuck trying to land Fireballs (again, no easy task after turn 1/2 if you're not an Evocation Wizard) or spamming Twinned Firebolts. See my comment above on what a Wizard can do instead.

Again, I might be missing something, it would have been nice if you guys had included the battle routine in the first place.
Most of the times, like 50% of your contribution will come from the spell you are concentrating on, and like another 40% will come from just keeping up your concentration. Or if you can blast, that may do it instead, at least for some encounters. There are exceptions to that, but the key thing is to have spells that work well under the various scenarios you can expect to come across. And there's a lot of optimization to be done on that front. But combat routine? Not so much. It could vary. So, after using your appropriately chosen concentration big gun, you might want to use frebolt, or disengage and run away, or dimension door somewhere safe, or use mirror image, or throw a damage AoE (usually you do those at the beginning though), or whatever else. You can pick spells that use your action (or bonus action) and don't use concentration, and it's good to do so (cause whatever they will do, they will add to your odds of winning the fight), so there is some optimization to be done in that respect, though I think it's better to get spells like teleportation ones, or counterspell, dispel magic, absorb elements, mirror image, and the like.

I think that what you are missing, is how stronger concentration spells tend to be when compared to non-concentration ones; at least as far as winning fights goes, and also talking about sorcerers specifically who lack the most notable exceptions of the previous statement. For example, if your sorcerer twins a haste, because that happens to be the best you can do (and that's where optimization comes in; is that the best thing you could be doing during that encounter?), then the combat routine of subsequent rounds comes to keeping yourself safe from blows that would risk your concentration. That may use some of your subsequent turns or it might not. Once you think you are safe enough, then it's mostly a choice between single target damage (so I'd say cantrip) or AoE damage, or any other odd thing you might have and is not using concentration.

bendking

2019-07-19, 02:25 AM

Most of the times, like 50% of your contribution will come from the spell you are concentrating on, and like another 40% will come from just keeping up your concentration. Or if you can blast, that may do it instead, at least for some encounters. There are exceptions to that, but the key thing is to have spells that work well under the various scenarios you can expect to come across. And there's a lot of optimization to be done on that front. But combat routine? Not so much. It could vary. So, after using your appropriately chosen concentration big gun, you might want to use frebolt, or disengage and run away, or dimension door somewhere safe, or use mirror image, or throw a damage AoE (usually you do those at the beginning though), or whatever else. You can pick spells that use your action (or bonus action) and don't use concentration, and it's good to do so (cause whatever they will do, they will add to your odds of winning the fight), so there is some optimization to be done in that respect, though I think it's better to get spells like teleportation ones, or counterspell, dispel magic, absorb elements, mirror image, and the like.

I think that what you are missing, is how stronger concentration spells tend to be when compared to non-concentration ones; at least as far as winning fights goes, and also talking about sorcerers specifically who lack the most notable exceptions of the previous statement. For example, if your sorcerer twins a haste, because that happens to be the best you can do (and that's where optimization comes in; is that the best thing you could be doing during that encounter?), then the combat routine of subsequent rounds comes to keeping yourself safe from blows that would risk your concentration. That may use some of your subsequent turns or it might not. Once you think you are safe enough, then it's mostly a choice between single target damage (so I'd say cantrip) or AoE damage, or any other odd thing you might have and is not using concentration.

I've demonstrated that not only can the Wizard concentrate on spells but also chuck massive and effective AoE spells without issue, and that's just one sub-class.
I realize concentration spells are the major contribution of casters to battles, but surely being able to both concentrate and have a bevy of effective non-concentration spells is better than only concentrating?

Also, I don't think twinning Haste is the best a Sorcerer can do, but I digress.

ProsecutorGodot

2019-07-19, 02:38 AM

I've demonstrated that not only can the Wizard concentrate on spells but also chuck massive and effective AoE spells without issue, and that's just one sub-class.
I realize concentration spells are the major contribution of casters to battles, but surely being able to both concentrate and have a bevy of effective non-concentration spells is better than only concentrating?

Also, I don't think twinning Haste is the best a Sorcerer can do, but I digress.

At this point I'm just wishing that I could have such formulaic encounters that I could plan out my 100% always useful plan of attack.

Here I am, however, having enemies that would resist my fire damage, fighting in populated areas where my magic could harm bystanders if I resorted to fireball every time and to top it all off I'm all on my lonesome without a team who might deal more effective damage than I would if they were hasted. Boy wouldn't it be simple if DND was just a big white room where my Wizard could chuck fireballs to his heart's content.

If you don't think the Twinned Fire Bolt is good, or Twinned Haste is good, you should offer an alternative. Play a Wizard instead is not a viable alternative. We're talking about what's good that a Sorcerer can do.

Corran

2019-07-19, 02:42 AM

I've demonstrated that not only can the Wizard concentrate on spells but also chuck massive and effective AoE spells without issue, and that's just one sub-class.
Evoker, yes. That's their specialty, being very good (I'd say the best) at AoE damage.

I realize concentration spells are the major contribution of casters to battles, but surely being able to both concentrate and have a bevy of effective non-concentration spells is better than only concentrating?
Sure, I agree. Having effective non-concentration options is important. Especially if they add in some way to successfully using the spell that will be your main contribution to winning the fight.

Also, I don't think twinning Haste is the best a Sorcerer can do, but I digress.
It could be.

Edit:

At this point I'm just wishing that I could have such formulaic encounters that I could plan out my 100% always useful plan of attack.
Yeah, that's probably impossible. But it pays off to base your tactics around some assumed scenarios so that you can adapt better to the actual combat scenarios. If the actual encounter is the task, then what we are doing is practicing for said task. Adapting (a possibly a bit of improvisation) becomes easier along the way, as we get more and more experienced with the game system and with the tools we have at hand.

bendking

2019-07-19, 02:44 AM

Sure, I agree. Having effective non-concentration options is important. Especially if they add in some way to successfully using the spell that will be your main contribution to winning the fight.

Right, and so far all the spell lists specified in this thread have had 2 non-concentration options at most, one of them always being Fireball which a Sorcerer can't throw with impunity like an Evoker.
Do you see my point here? Even the arguement that Sorcerers are better at combat isn't true since their limited spell list doesn't let them fit in many non-concentration spells like the Wizard can, thus making their action economy worse (unless using a channel spell, which most aren't).

bendking

2019-07-19, 02:47 AM

Boy wouldn't it be simple if DND was just a big white room where my Wizard could chuck fireballs to his heart's content.

I've specifially stated I'm using an Evoker Wizard for this comparison, since he can throw AoE spells with impunity thus have an amazing action economy in which he is making a big difference every turn in addition to concentrating on a spell.

Other than that, you are, as always, most welcome to share your spell list and battle routine to counter my arguement.

ProsecutorGodot

2019-07-19, 02:52 AM

I've specifially stated I'm using an Evoker Wizard for this comparison, since he can throw AoE spells with impunity thus have an amazing action economy in which he is making a big difference every turn in addition to concentrating on a spell.

Other than that, you are, as always, most welcome to share your spell list and battle routine to counter my arguement.

And again, there is no reasonable battle routine that will always be useful for any class, even this evoker wizard. White Room scenarios are completely unhelpful in practice.

Also, the fact that the Wizard can cast fireballs constantly doesn't at all make their action economy more efficient. A fireball cast for a Wizard means a bonus action not spent casting a spell, a Sorcerer can quicken spells so that they are casting more per turn.

Action economy is about making use of your Actions, not the level of spells you're casting.

Yeah, that's probably impossible. But it pays off to base your tactics around some assumed scenarios so that you can adapt better to the actual combat scenarios. If the actual encounter is the task, then what we are doing is practicing for said task. Adapting (a possibly a bit of improvisation) becomes easier along the way, as we get more and more experienced with the game system and with the tools we have at hand.

Didn't meant to imply that you can't have a general idea of what you're doing, just that no perfect solution exists. Making a "battle routine" to rank two spellcasters against each other is a nonsensical way of gauging their power. They can accomplish different things, they're being built to accomplish different things, why are they trying to compete at the strengths of just the Wizard?

How am I supposed to argue that a Support Sorcerer is going to effectively pump out the same damage as an Evoker Wizard when they're not trying to do the same thing? Of course the Sorcerer isn't pumping out comparable damage all on his own, he isn't trying to.

bendking

2019-07-19, 03:08 AM

And again, there is no reasonable battle routine that will always be useful for any class, even this evoker wizard. White Room scenarios are completely unhelpful in practice.

Also, the fact that the Wizard can cast fireballs constantly doesn't at all make their action economy more efficient. A fireball cast for a Wizard means a bonus action not spent casting a spell, a Sorcerer can quicken spells so that they are casting more per turn.

Action economy is about making use of your Actions, not the level of spells you're casting.

What do you mean? A Sorcerer can only cast a cantrip as his second spell when quickening.
Anyway, while I could respond to your arguments, it seems we are going around in circles and are obviously not going to reach common ground, so I'm going to save us both time and say we'll agree to disagree.

ProsecutorGodot

2019-07-19, 03:11 AM

What do you mean? A Sorcerer can only cast a cantrip as his second spell when quickening.
Anyway, while I could respond to your arguments, it seems we are going around in circles and are obviously not going to reach common ground, so I'm going to save us both time and say we'll agree to disagree.

Cantrips aren't bad. Fireball + Quickened Cantrip is more potential damage than just Fireball. The Wizard isn't doing anything with their bonus action in your examples, the Sorcerer is. That is what action economy is. Metamagic allows Sorcerer's better action economy than a Wizard.

You made the claim that for some reason an Evoker Wizard has better action economy because they can cast Fireball better. That has nothing to do with action economy. The classes have different strengths, comparing them 1 to 1 is ridiculous. All it proves is that a Sorcerer isn't a Wizard, I don't see anyone arguing that.

Corran

2019-07-19, 03:20 AM

Let's take it one thing at a time.

Right, and so far all the spell lists specified in this thread have had 2 non-concentration options at most, one of them always being Fireball which a Sorcerer can't throw with impunity like an Evoker.
If you are saying that evokers are better blasters than sorcerers, then yes, I agree. That's mainly because they can rely on blasting for winning encounters a lot more often than non evoker wizards can. Maybe we are both right or we might be both wrong about this one, but we agree on that, and there's not much else to say about it.

Do you see my point here? Even the arguement that Sorcerers are better at combat isn't true since their limited spell list doesn't let them fit in many non-concentration spells like the Wizard can, thus making their action economy worse (unless using a channel spell, which most aren't).
No, I don't see your point. Which non concentration spells that help so much at winning fights are you referring to? The ones I can think of are high level ones, and if we are discussing high levels, then once again I would agree in that I also think the sorcerers get left behind (I wouldn't say though that my preferred fix would be to give them the spells that make wizards unique). But at lower levels? Sure, I can think of some useful applications of stuff like blindness or grease or whatever, but these spells are only situationally very useful. Most of the times they are just ok, so I wouldn't mind trading access to more of them in exchange of boosting my main guns with metamagic.

Edit:

Didn't meant to imply that you can't have a general idea of what you're doing, just that no perfect solution exists. Making a "battle routine" to rank two spellcasters against each other is a nonsensical way of gauging their power. They can accomplish different things, they're being built to accomplish different things, why are they trying to compete at the strengths of just the Wizard?
Gotcha.
And clearly the best way to compare casters is to create a thread where posters will create builds and use their builds to duel one another. Because, you know, that's a good approximation of the typical dnd adventuring day. :smallsmile:
(though usually such threads bring out the best optimization skills of some people, so they could be a good place to look for creative ideas you wouldn't have though of your own; that is, if you have the patience to go through tons of passive aggressive posts).

bendking

2019-07-19, 03:36 AM

If you are saying that evokers are better blasters than sorcerers, then yes, I agree. That's mainly because they can rely on blasting for winning encounters a lot more often than non evoker wizards can. Maybe we are both right or we might be both wrong about this one, but we agree on that, and there's not much else to say about it.

My point is that an Evoker Wizard has better action economy than any Sorcerer already.
I'm saying that an Evoker can take the same exact spells a controller Sorcerer can take and more, so that he could be casting both the control spells the Sorcerer is casting (though less effectively), and also be casting blast spells left and right while the Sorcerer is most likely not going to have much space in his spells known to include a lot of non-concentration spells, as has been demonstrated by every spell list shared in this thread thus far (edit: though to be fair, the authors of those spell lists haven't detailed what battle routine they had in mind, so I might be missing something).
I'm saying the the simple Evoker already comes out on top of every Sorcerer in most generalized combat scenarios in terms of usage of his action economy and contribution to the fight.

No, I don't see your point. Which non concentration spells that help so much at winning fights are you referring to? The ones I can think of are high level ones, and if we are discussing high levels, then once again I would agree in that I also think the sorcerers get left behind (I wouldn't say though that my preferred fix would be to give them the spells that make wizards unique). But at lower levels? Sure, I can think of some useful applications of stuff like blindness or grease or whatever, but these spells are only situationally very useful. Most of the times they are just ok, so I wouldn't mind trading access to more of them in exchange of boosting my main guns with metamagic.

As I said before: "a simple Evoker Wizard, at level 10, can also squish into this list Blindness, Lightning Bolt, Vitriolic Sphere, Synaptic Static, and be able to land all of these spells without trouble".
I'd say all these spells help quite a lot in winning fights, Blindness being the least helpful (though but coincidently the one I perceive a non-blaster Sorcerer most likely to take as his non-concentration spell, but that's beside the point).

ProsecutorGodot

2019-07-19, 03:50 AM

My point is that an Evoker Wizard has better action economy than any Sorcerer already.
I'm saying that an Evoker can take the same exact spells a controller Sorcerer can take and more, so that he could be casting both the control spells the Sorcerer is casting (though less effectively), and also be casting blast spells left and right while the Sorcerer is most likely not going to have much space in his spells known to include a lot of non-concentration spells, as has been demonstrated by every spell list shared in this thread thus far (edit: though to be fair, the authors of those spell lists haven't detailed what battle routine they had in mind, so I might be missing something).
I'm saying the the simple Evoker already comes out on top of every Sorcerer in most generalized combat scenarios in terms of usage of his action economy and contribution to the fight.
I think I'm seeing the misunderstanding now. What do you define "action economy" as? How is a single Fireball spell better action economy than Fireball + Cantrip?

Action economy is about taking more actions, in this specific example, having something to use as a Bonus Action. Someone who is able to use their Action, Bonus Action and Reaction regularly has good action economy. Someone who has many different spells or features competing for their action and little or no use for their reaction or bonus action has poor action economy.

Your Wizard in this example is only able to use an action to cast Fireball on his turn while the Sorcerer can cast fireball and use his bonus action to quicken a cantrip or even quicken the fireball and twin a cantrip. The Wizard has worse action economy in this example.

Corran

2019-07-19, 04:10 AM

My point is that an Evoker Wizard has better action economy than any Sorcerer already.
I'm saying that an Evoker can take the same exact spells a controller Sorcerer can take and more, so that he could be casting both the control spells the Sorcerer is casting (though less effectively), and also be casting blast spells left and right while the Sorcerer is most likely not going to have much space in his spells known to include a lot of non-concentration spells, as has been demonstrated by every spell list shared in this thread thus far (edit: though to be fair, the authors of those spell lists haven't detailed what battle routine they had in mind, so I might be missing something).
I'm saying the the simple Evoker already comes out on top of every Sorcerer in most generalized combat scenarios in terms of usage of his action economy and contribution to the fight.

As I said before: "a simple Evoker Wizard, at level 10, can also squish into this list Blindness, Lightning Bolt, Vitriolic Sphere, Synaptic Static, and be able to land all of these spells without trouble".
I'd say all these spells help quite a lot in winning fights, Blindness being the least helpful (though but coincidently the one I perceive a non-blaster Sorcerer most likely to take as his non-concentration spell, but that's beside the point).
Yes, they can help, but most of the times not nearly as much as some other concentration spell will.
Either way, essentially you are discussing the merits of AoE blasting, which is a far broader topic than just discussing the strengths of the sorcerer class. For example, your whole premise could very well be a thread of how evoker compares to the rest of the wizard archetypes, which would have nothing to do with the sorcerer.

bendking

2019-07-19, 04:41 AM

I think I'm seeing the misunderstanding now. What do you define "action economy" as? How is a single Fireball spell better action economy than Fireball + Cantrip?

Action economy is about taking more actions, in this specific example, having something to use as a Bonus Action. Someone who is able to use their Action, Bonus Action and Reaction regularly has good action economy. Someone who has many different spells or features competing for their action and little or no use for their reaction or bonus action has poor action economy.

Your Wizard in this example is only able to use an action to cast Fireball on his turn while the Sorcerer can cast fireball and use his bonus action to quicken a cantrip or even quicken the fireball and twin a cantrip. The Wizard has worse action economy in this example.

I was indeed saying the Wizard can take more actions. Using the spell list provided, the only non-conc spell the Sorcerer had were Fireball & Firebolt.
1. In most cases, after the first or second turn, casting a Fireball becomes unlikely to be fruitful since enemies and allies tend to be intermingled, thus the Evoker is always able to cast Fireball without harming his allies. Even if positioning wasn't a huge issue or the Wizard wasn't an Evoker, the Wizard in this example could also afford to take Blindness, Lightning Bolt, Vitriolic Sphere, and Synaptic Static, having many more options to cast while concentrating, once of which is almost guaranteed to land without harming one of his allies
2. For the Wizard all these additional blast spells are spread out between spell levels, so he could continue blasting after using all his Fireballs while the Sorcerer is tapped out for the day.

To me these points paint a clear picture of the Wizard, by only having 4 more spells prepared (at 10th-level), can outperform a Sorcerer both at burst and throughout the day, and having more potent control spells + being able to Quicken Fireball + Twin Firebolt doesn't make up for it in my mind.

Yes, they can help, but most of the times not nearly as much as some other concentration spell will.
Either way, essentially you are discussing the merits of AoE blasting, which is a far broader topic than just discussing the strengths of the sorcerer class. For example, your whole premise could very well be a thread of how evoker compares to the rest of the wizard archetypes, which would have nothing to do with the sorcerer.
1. Indeed, but you can only concentrate on one spell. I was comparing the Wizard & Sorcerer after they had already cast it, otherwise if we would try to take into consideration re-applying concentratin spells the comparison would get too muddled.
2. I really wasn't. I was merely using an Evoker Wizard as an example, but as I specified above, even a non-Evoker Wizard is much more likely to have spells that would land without hurting his allies simply to the credit of his breadth of spells prepared.

ProsecutorGodot

2019-07-19, 04:50 AM

I was indeed saying the Wizard can take more actions.
Well that's just flat out untrue. A wizard casting fireball each turn can't possibly cast more spells per turn than a Sorcerer, the game rules don't allow it.

You obviously don't know what the term Action Economy (https://www.dungeonsolvers.com/2018/06/01/understanding-the-action-economy-in-dd-5e/) means.

To me these points paint a clear picture of the Wizard, by only having 4 more spells prepared (at 10th-level), can outperform a Sorcerer both at burst and throughout the day, and having more potent control spells + being able to Quicken Fireball + Twin Firebolt doesn't make up for it in my mind.

Who does more burst is irrelevant and I've gone over with you before that a Sorcerer isn't as spent as you seem to believe at the end of the day. They can cast several more high level spells in a day than the Wizard. A 10th level Wizard can only ever cast three 5th level spells in a day, a Sorcerer could cast as many as six if they needed to. This comparison favors the Sorcerer even more if we're just talking Fireball.

A 10th level Wizard, given a short rest, can cast a maximum of four Fireballs in a day.

A 10th level Sorcerer, without a rest, can cast between three and eleven Fireballs in a day.

bendking

2019-07-19, 04:56 AM

Well that's just flat out untrue. A wizard casting fireball each turn can't possibly cast more spells per turn than a Sorcerer, the game rules don't allow it.

You obviously don't know what the term Action Economy (https://www.dungeonsolvers.com/2018/06/01/understanding-the-action-economy-in-dd-5e/) means.

I literally went into detail and explained why a Wizard can take more meaningful actions (aka not casting a firebolt) each turn. Why do you focus on terminology instead of actually responding to my arguements?

Who does more burst is irrelevant and I've gone over with you before that a Sorcerer isn't as spent as you seem to believe at the end of the day. They can cast several more high level spells in a day than the Wizard. A 10th level Wizard can only ever cast three 5th level spells in a day, a Sorcerer could cast as many as six if they needed to.

Again, I've explained how a Wizard can take more than just Fireball (Vitriolic Sphre, Synaptic Static, Blindness, Lightning Bolt) and thus not be tapped out after casting 3 Fireballs that day.
I'm not going to attribute you ignoring my arguments to malice, so are you actually reading my comments or are you just skimming?

ProsecutorGodot

2019-07-19, 05:01 AM

I literally went into detail and explained why a Wizard can take more meaningful actions (aka not casting a firebolt) each turn. Why do you focus on terminology instead of actually responding to my arguements?
Who's decided that those actions are more meaningful? You're not the arbiter here, I think what the Sorcerer can do is just as valid. You've demonstrated that it's your opinion that what the Wizard is doing is more effective but that doesn't make it a definite fact.

Every proposal from another user has been shot down by you. Clearly you have a large bias towards burst damage but that's not the only metric you can measure effective spellcasting with.

Again, I've explained how a Wizard can take more than just Fireball (Vitriolic Sphre, Synaptic Static, Blindness, Lightning Bolt) and thus not be tapped out after casting 3 Fireballs that day.
I'm not going to attribute you ignoring my arguments to malice, so are you actually reading my comments or are you just skimming?
I'm directly addressing them as blatantly false. Sorcerer's have the potential to cast more Fireballs per day than a Wizard (more than twice as many in fact). By your own metrics, that alone is enough to make them "better".

You seem also to discount Cantrips as being at all useful. A spellcaster is never "tapped out", cantrips allow them to remain largely effective even with reckless slot expending.