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TimeWizard
2007-10-08, 09:50 PM
I was just wondering, hypothetically, if a someone with shapeshifting were to turn into a star fish, be cut in half, and regrow into two starfish... could they then revert into two of the same character?

Zincorium
2007-10-08, 10:09 PM
I was just wondering, hypothetically, if a someone with shapeshifting were to turn into a star fish, be cut in half, and regrow into two starfish... could they then revert into two of the same character?

The 2nd one wouldn't revert to anything. You'd simply have a character and a starfish that used to be part of him. Or at least that's the way I'd play it, there probably doesn't exist an official answer to this.

Citizen Joe
2007-10-08, 10:16 PM
I think they detailed that sort of thing under regeneration... check trolls for their regenerating from a separated part.

TimeWizard
2007-10-08, 10:17 PM
addendum: If you did have two characters, did their absorbed-into-their-body magic items double or get divided up?

ChomZ
2007-10-08, 10:22 PM
If I was DMing and ran into this situation, I'd treat is a two characters, the old one from the larger half, keeping all items, memories, experience, class features, etc. and a new born child that happened to be his exact twin.

NEO|Phyte
2007-10-08, 10:28 PM
I was just wondering, hypothetically, if a someone with shapeshifting were to turn into a star fish, be cut in half, and regrow into two starfish... could they then revert into two of the same character?

Depending on the magic used, no, or maybe.

Alter Self or Polymorph has severed parts immediately revert to their normal form. Shapechange and the Change Shape and Alternate Form abilities leave severed parts as they are, but whether the severed part would still be 'you' and able to change back is debatable.

Armads
2007-10-08, 11:47 PM
Doesn't this question also apply if a wizard cast Shapechange and turned into one of those splitting oozes? (Black Pudding, issit?)

averagejoe
2007-10-08, 11:51 PM
When this happened in Animorphs it created two Rachels, but her personality also split, making both halves together less effective than the whole personality.

Raolin_Fenix
2007-10-08, 11:52 PM
Were I DMing and this came up in the game, and the player made a nuisance of himself about it, I would accept it.

Then I would NPC the newly-regenerated part, and play it as the evil twin who absolutely loathes and despises his brother and seeks his death through any means necessary.

Devin
2007-10-09, 12:43 AM
When this happened in Animorphs it created two Rachels, but her personality also split, making both halves together less effective than the whole personality.

I was going to say that(most of it, anyway), but I didn't know how to do spoilers on this board, and I was afraid of breaking the rules. I guess it's not that much of a spoiler, then?

Townopolis
2007-10-09, 12:49 AM
Were I DMing and this came up in the game, and the player made a nuisance of himself about it, I would accept it.

Then I would NPC the newly-regenerated part, and play it as the evil twin who absolutely loathes and despises his brother and seeks his death through any means necessary.

Indeed

/steeplefingersandlaughevilly

TheOOB
2007-10-09, 01:21 AM
I would rule that when the creature is broken into two, only one half retains the powers and abilities of the original, the other is just a star fish. No normal magic can split a soul into multiple separate parts that retain the originals functions, thus the soul would remain in one part (likely the bigger part), while the new part would gain a new soul and become an independent creature of it's own right. Beings it is a star fish when it got it's soul, it has the skills and abilities of a star fish.

Through powerful magic (eg epic or artifact level) it may be possible to dub your soul into the new form, but the creature would be an independent copy, though there is a good chance that the cognitive dissonance from meeting an exact copy of oneself would make at least one of the pair seek to murder the other before anything else (like the mirror of opposition).

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-09, 02:07 AM
Since it was cut in half each creature gets half the magic items and thinks it is the original creature.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-09, 02:12 AM
No normal magic can split a soul into multiple separate parts that retain the originals functions, thus the soul would remain in one part (likely the bigger part), while the new part would gain a new soul and become an independent creature of it's own right.

Through powerful magic (eg epic or artifact level) it may be possible to dub your soul into the new form, but the creature would be an independent copy, though there is a good chance that the cognitive dissonance from meeting an exact copy of oneself would make at least one of the pair seek to murder the other before anything else (like the mirror of opposition).

Champions of Valor has the level 3 Conjuration Create Lantern Archon spell made from a small part of your life force.

Kurald Galain
2007-10-09, 04:06 AM
This shouldn't work in principle, except in the rare case where the Law of Drama dictates otherwise.

TimeWizard
2007-10-09, 07:36 AM
This shouldn't work in principle, except in the rare case where the Law of Drama dictates otherwise.

Yeah, I figured this much going in, but I was hoping to get my very own "RAW doesn't saw it doesn't work, so, hypothetically, yes" situation. Which is basically a gold star in forum going, is it not?

But the question at hand is, are there Rules As Written dictating the outcome?

DraPrime
2007-10-09, 07:47 AM
Things like this are completely up to the DM. I'd simply rule that one of the halves would keep the characters intelligence and personality. The other one would be a mindless version of the original character.

Alex12
2007-10-09, 08:07 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fission.htm

I'd do it something like this. Once you shift back (i.e. the duration of the spell that's making you a starfish ends) the "you" that was severed immediately comes back to you.

Overlard
2007-10-09, 08:22 AM
If a player tried this, I'd say that he was split into two, but the split wasn't perfect...

His conscious mind remained in one starfish, while his magical abilities (the spell effect) went into the other. So at the end of the spell's duration, you'd have one starfish turn back into the original form, but have the mind of a starfish, and back in the water, a now-permenant starfish with the mind of the character, desperately wishing someone would cast speak with animals. :smallbiggrin:

hewhosaysfish
2007-10-09, 08:29 AM
A starfish can survive being split in half. People can't. When the spell ends, he turns into two half-wizards and dies. Unless they were just curious rather than trying to abuse this idea, in which case they merge back into one, as others have suggested. Funny thing about RPGs: the physical (and magical) laws vary according to how much of an ass you're being. :smallbiggrin:

DraPrime
2007-10-09, 08:39 AM
I had another idea. You do in fact get 2 intelligent people, but neither of them is the original person. They have completely different personalities. One can be a mass murderer, while the other is a kind person. Neither of these new personalities can be the same as the original person. How you get the two personalities together into the original person is the PCs problem.

Kurald Galain
2007-10-09, 09:03 AM
Yeah, I figured this much going in, but I was hoping to get my very own "RAW doesn't saw it doesn't work, so, hypothetically, yes" situation. Which is basically a gold star in forum going, is it not?

No, according to the rules, it is that "RAW doesn't say it does work, so, therefore, it doesn't".

Raolin_Fenix
2007-10-09, 09:18 AM
No, according to the rules, it is that "RAW doesn't say it does work, so, therefore, it doesn't".

I don't think that's how it works. I mean, the rules don't say what happens when the Amulet of Yender is dunked in lava, either. Possibly because the Amulet of Yender is a magical item created by the DM rather than the book. I believe that what the rules say is, "Anything not covered by the rules is resolved by DM's discretion."

Kurald Galain
2007-10-09, 10:11 AM
DM's discretion figures into everything, but in essence what you're stating is equivalent to letting players rob the bank in Monopoly, because the rules don't state that you can't rob the bank.

Obviously a homebrew artifact like the Amulet of Yendor is a poor example, but any regular or magical object will, when dunked into lava, take 20d6 points of damage per round minus its hardness.

TheOOB
2007-10-09, 10:57 AM
If your player does this, just say they turned into one of the many species of star fish that don't regenerate in that way, medieval biology knowledge leaves much to be desired.

valadil
2007-10-09, 11:27 AM
As a GM I wouldn't allow players to clone themselves in this fashion.

I've heard that only the half of the starfish with the internal organs ends up surviving. A lone leg may wriggle off (in the same manner as a lizard's tail) but it wouldn't grow a new starfish.

Failing that, your character still only has one soul. That soul would end up in one of the two bodies. The extra copy would basically be a corpse of the character. I suppose if the body with the soul was destroyed beyond hope of raise dead, I'd allow raise dead into the other body.

Depending on the game though I would consider taking the soulless clone and using it against the party as was previously suggested. I like NPC teams that mirror the PCs and this would be a very effective way of achieving that. It would probably be something to the effect that the PCs get rid of the extra body because they can't use it, but the BBEG finds it and can turn it against them. Oooh. I really like the idea of switching that character in when the players don't notice. One of my groups likes to use PCs even when the player is absent. It helps alleviate the problems that arise when the cleric doesn't show up. I'd enjoy swapping in the clone and kidnapping the main character while covering for an absent player.

Rex Blunder
2007-10-09, 11:33 AM
I seem to remember this question was answered in a really old Sage Advice from 1e or 2e - regarding earthworms. As far as I remember, Skip Williams' answer agreed with hewhosaysfish - when the spell ends, you end up with the top and bottom half of a wizard.

kjones
2007-10-09, 12:33 PM
DM's discretion figures into everything, but in essence what you're stating is equivalent to letting players rob the bank in Monopoly, because the rules don't state that you can't rob the bank.

Obviously a homebrew artifact like the Amulet of Yendor is a poor example, but any regular or magical object will, when dunked into lava, take 20d6 points of damage per round minus its hardness.

I thought that sort of damage ignored hardness...

DraPrime
2007-10-09, 12:43 PM
I seem to remember this question was answered in a really old Sage Advice from 1e or 2e - regarding earthworms. As far as I remember, Skip Williams' answer agreed with hewhosaysfish - when the spell ends, you end up with the top and bottom half of a wizard.

I guess that works, but in the end, as always it's up to the DM.

goat
2007-10-09, 12:52 PM
Give each limb a number. When the bit gets chopped off roll a d4. Hunk of starfish becomes relevant limb, and the character later reverts to a form with one less limb, but a healed up stump. While in regenerating form, the starfish can become whole again, but that leg on the floor is still his leg on the floor.

Mr shape-changed into a giant starfish is thus harder to kill, but you better hope your Cleric has Regenerate for when you're finished.

TimeWizard
2007-10-09, 02:57 PM
Not that I'm a marine biologist, but a single starfish "leg" (appendage) will, in fact, regrow the whole starfish. All of it. For real. I do sort of like the one soul idea: One starfish revert is normal, one is a living but soulless body. For matters of ease, let's say the shapeshifter is a druid using wildshape, and for conveinence, doesn't revert until the healing is done.

Y'know what? I'm going right to the source on this one.

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-09, 03:00 PM
Give each limb a number. When the bit gets chopped off roll a d4. Hunk of starfish becomes relevant limb, and the character later reverts to a form with one less limb, but a healed up stump. While in regenerating form, the starfish can become whole again, but that leg on the floor is still his leg on the floor.

Mr shape-changed into a giant starfish is thus harder to kill, but you better hope your Cleric has Regenerate for when you're finished.

...But starfish can regenerate lost limbs. Easily. If you stay in the form of a starfish for long enough, you'll be whole again. Why would you be missing a limb when you change back?

goat
2007-10-09, 03:07 PM
...But starfish can regenerate lost limbs. Easily. If you stay in the form of a starfish for long enough, you'll be whole again. Why would you be missing a limb when you change back?

Because it's not you growing back the limb, it's the starfish.

valadil
2007-10-09, 03:14 PM
Not that I'm a marine biologist, but a single starfish "leg" (appendage) will, in fact, regrow the whole starfish. All of it. For real. I do sort of like the one soul idea: One starfish revert is normal, one is a living but soulless body. For matters of ease, let's say the shapeshifter is a druid using wildshape, and for conveinence, doesn't revert until the healing is done.

Y'know what? I'm going right to the source on this one.

Looks like we're both right on this one. According to wikipedia whether or not an arm can grow a new starfish depends on the species of starfish:


Some species of starfish have the ability to regenerate lost arms and can regrow an entire new arm in time. Most species must have the central part of the body intact to be able to regenerate, but a few can grow an entire starfish from a single ray. Included in this group are the red and blue Linckia star. The regeneration of these stars is possible due to the vital organs kept in their arms.

I'd argue that without a huge knowledge nature, a PC would not know which type of starfish can regenerate from an arm and would probably get the wrong kind. Of course I really just like messing with players.

Yet another option for blocking PC cheese is that the regenerated arm doesn't realize its a polyshaped PC and lives out its life in starfish form.

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-09, 03:16 PM
Because it's not you growing back the limb, it's the starfish.

...But you are the starfish!

Are you saying that if you polymorph into a troll, then someone cuts you with a sword enough times to kill you several times over, and you immediately heal it (due to regenration), then polymorph back you'll immediately keel over, because it's the troll that healed, not you?

What if you polymorph into something else, then take some damage and the Cleric casts a cure spell on you? When you polymorph back, do you suddenly lose all that HP the Cleric cured for you?

goat
2007-10-09, 03:21 PM
Nah, you're just in the form of the starfish. Otherwise you could "go starfish", have a few limbs chopped off and come back naked from the waist down while your trousers are in two pieces with your two old legs. And that would be obscene. Such things have no place in the game.

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-09, 03:23 PM
Nah, you're just in the form of the starfish. Otherwise you could "go starfish", have a few limbs chopped off and come back naked from the waist down while your trousers are in two pieces with your two old legs. And that would be obscene. Such things have no place in the game.

...What?

...Seriously, what are you talking about?

I think you need to re-read alter self.

JoeFredBob
2007-10-09, 03:23 PM
DM's discretion figures into everything, but in essence what you're stating is equivalent to letting players rob the bank in Monopoly, because the rules don't state that you can't rob the bank.

Obviously a homebrew artifact like the Amulet of Yendor is a poor example, but any regular or magical object will, when dunked into lava, take 20d6 points of damage per round minus its hardness.


Monopoly and D&D are fundamentally different games. Monopoly is highly structured with a finite set of possible outcomes. D&D is loosely structured with an infinite (or at least practically infinite) set of possible outcomes. These can not all be covered in the rulebooks.

"The rulebooks don't say I can't, therefore I can," works for some things. Take, for example, "I'm going to do a hand stand." As far as I know, no rule book makes any mention of hand stands. However, no sane DM would default to "I'm sorry, there aren't rules for that, so your character can't do it." The DM's role would be to decide how to arbitrate that situation (probably a balance check).

On the other hand, in same cases "the rulebooks don't say I can, therefore I can't" is the proper way of handling things. The classic example is the fact that you can't shoot laser beams out of your eyes, precisely because the rulebooks don't say you can.

The difference lies in implied abilities. The rulebooks explicitly state that your character is capable of movement. In our experience, people who are capable of movement are capable of attempting a handstand. Therefore, your character can attempt a handstand. The handstand ability is implied in the ability of motion.

The same thing goes for a starfish. Some polymorphing abilities give you regeneration. Starfish can regenerate a whole body from any part, and will split into two separate organisms sometimes. Therefore it is reasonable to think that a wizard who is polymorphed in an appropriate manner into a starfish and is cut in half should regenerate into two whole starfish bodies. The end result can only be arbitrated by the DM.

(Sorry, but "the rulebooks don't say you can, therefore you can't" is a pet peeve of mine. A large reason I play D&D is the flexibility of deciding what to do and try.)

daggaz
2007-10-09, 03:26 PM
He reverts into two half-freaks. Each one half human, half starfish. As this is not exactly conducive to life, each freak stops living rather quickly. A very small chance (its magic) says if one lives after all, doomed to live a life as a horrid mutant beggar, its mind and face half devoured by a starfish tumor which lusts only after oysters and other shellfish.

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-09, 03:30 PM
He reverts into two half-freaks. Each one half human, half starfish. As this is not exactly conducive to life, each freak stops living rather quickly. A very small chance (its magic) says if one lives after all, doomed to live a life as a horrid mutant beggar, its mind and face half devoured by a starfish tumor which lusts only after oysters and other shellfish.

I think you need to re-read alter self, too.

goat
2007-10-09, 06:38 PM
Alter self doesn't let you get regeneration.

Let's take polymorph instead. Which I think does allow it, but may not have the other specifics, I'm without books so working only from SRD.

Anyway, I'm more concerned with the "Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form" clause that's present in Alter self.

So, if they chop off a "leg", it reverts to being your leg, lying on the floor. If you were then regenerated while in that form, to being whole, and then died causing you to revert to your original state, would you have the SAME leg again? Would your original leg be both attached to your hip, AND lying on the floor over there, or would one vanish?

I'm sure duplicating legs would allow some sort of grafting cheese.

Anxe
2007-10-09, 06:52 PM
With a simple polymorph you don't get the starfish's regeneration. With an advanced one where you do get Extraordinary abilities then the second starfish would disappear when you went back to your original form.

Zeal
2007-10-09, 06:52 PM
I'd rule that, when the spell ends, the caster reverts to his regular form and the severed limb will in essence clone the caster. However, the mind of the 'clone' wll be that of a starfish, utterly useless. The clone would also have a high chance of not being able to understand human movement.

By the RAW, I'm almost certain it wouldn't work.

TimeWizard
2007-10-10, 09:13 AM
Anyway, I'm more concerned with the "Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form" clause that's present in Alter self.

So, if they chop off a "leg", it reverts to being your leg, lying on the floor. If you were then regenerated while in that form, to being whole, and then died causing you to revert to your original state, would you have the SAME leg again? Would your original leg be both attached to your hip, AND lying on the floor over there, or would one vanish?

I'm sure duplicating legs would allow some sort of grafting cheese.

You hit it on the nerve- A seperated leg reverts (using alter self), but you can just grow it back as a starfish "ray" (being the proper term), and revert back with a nice fully-regenerated new leg. The question at hand is weather or not this works with your whole body.

goat
2007-10-10, 11:43 AM
You hit it on the nerve- A seperated leg reverts (using alter self), but you can just grow it back as a starfish "ray" (being the proper term), and revert back with a nice fully-regenerated new leg. The question at hand is weather or not this works with your whole body.

I don't see how it could. Chopped off bits stop being starfish the instant they're chopped off. Even if you are regenerating, there's only ever one chunk-o'-starfish there to regenerate anything.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-10-10, 12:08 PM
Given that D&D objectively has the presence of a soul (or ghost, or spirit, or whatever you'd like to call it) that is a necessary part of the 'person' (see rules on Resurrection, Reincarnation, Outsiders, etc.)
I'd rule that, although the body could theoretically be split, the soul wouldn't. It would occupy one of the two halves, the other, lacking personhood, would be basically a "meat puppet," and, lacking the presence to maintain the wild shape, revert to it's original form-a severed humanoid torso-and die.

Furthermore, the duration of wild-shape is not nearly long enough to encompass the regenerative period of the starfish.

Neek
2007-10-10, 01:08 PM
You hit it on the nerve- A seperated leg reverts (using alter self), but you can just grow it back as a starfish "ray" (being the proper term), and revert back with a nice fully-regenerated new leg. The question at hand is weather or not this works with your whole body.

I believe this is the end all argument. Any separation while in polymorph, it reverts back to the original form. Once separated, it reverts to being your leg. Although when you reform (after the starfish regeneration), you have an extra leg. For, you know, whatever. Now polymorph that leg into a starfish and see what happens!