Cantrips vs Martial 20

[SirNibbles]

I was inspired by this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?591152-Why-do-damaging-cantrips-even-exist) to see how easily a Wizard or Sorcerer could take down a 20th level fighter using only cantrips. (Or Barbarian, if you prefer that).

The rules for both sides:
Magic items are allowed as long as they don't mimic spells higher than 0th level or require spells higher than 0th level to create
SLAs are allowed as long as they aren't higher than 0th level
Supernatural Abilities are allowed as long as they don't mimic spells higher than 0th level
Metamagic is allowed as long as the base spell being cast is 0th level (i.e. no preparing 1st or higher level spells with metamagic reducers to be 0th level)
Both characters generated with 32-point point buy
Both characters get 75% of max HP (Fighter gets 7.5 HP, Barb gets 9, Wizard/Sorc each get 3)
The fight takes place on a flat plain surrounded by a 100 foot radius sphere of force (which extends through the ground)

Bonuses:
No metamagic
Lowest level possible Wizard/Sorcerer

__

With Metamagic, I feel like it'd just be Fell Drain on DPS spells while trying to avoid getting charged or sniped.

Without Metamagic, I'm not sure.

[MisterKaws]

Twin Repeated Ocular Fell Drain Sonic Snap?

Well, at that point it's not really a level 0 spell anymore.

[StevenC21]

You realize that if you allow Metamagic, everyone is just going to use -1 Metamagic reducers to cast Wish as a cantrip, right?

[MisterKaws]

You realize that if you allow Metamagic, everyone is just going to use -1 Metamagic reducers to cast Wish as a cantrip, right?

I'd say Shadow Miracle, but that works too.

[Vizzerdrix]

Arcane thesis- launch bolt. Then use Reach twinned split ray invisable launch bolt. Stack a few more mm cost reducers for metamagic to get it back down to 0. I think this results is something like 42 arrows per casting, before cl boosts.

Use arrows that have their own innate damage increase (their are 3 or 4 metals that do this).

Boost your init with improved init a good dex (strongheart halfling is best) and a hummingbird.

For fun, invisable felldrain sculpted caltrops is nasty.

A handfull of black sand, and stick. In the hair. Good luck with that.

Felldrain snap + several bags of marbles.

[Anthrowhale]

A Violated Wounding Fell Frighten Twin Sonic Snap seems pretty potent.

The first Fell Frighten makes them Shaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#shaken). The second escalates to Frightened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#frightened).

Wounding causes 1 damage/round which becomes 2/round with Twin that can only be stopped with a heal check (DC = spell save DC) or a cure spell.

Violate Spell means that half of the damage cannot be healed.

This requires a 9th level slot without metamagic reduction.

[SirNibbles]

You realize that if you allow Metamagic, everyone is just going to use -1 Metamagic reducers to cast Wish as a cantrip, right?

Updated for clarity. The intent was to only use 0th level spells. A 1st level spell reduced to 0 by metamagic doesn't count.

Either way, if metamagic is allowed it seems like a pretty easy win for the caster if they win initiative.

[Kalkra]

Magic items are allowed as long as they don't mimic spells higher than 0th level or require spells higher than 0th level to create


So can you make Wondrous Items? Because you need CL 3 for that, even if you're making a CL 1 item. If you can, then 500 Acid Splash traps.

[SirNibbles]

Dragonscale Husk Fighter shuts down all elemental damage except sonic so I don't think acid splash would be all that useful.

[Mato]

Dragonscale Husk Fighter shuts down all elemental damage except sonic so I don't think acid splash would be all that useful.A thug fighter that spent a few rounds in a schiver is basically immune to damage and it's not like cantrips offer save-or-dies or ways to actually trap someone.

[Anthrowhale]

The Font of Life feat offers a way to resist Fell Drain.

[Gemini476]

Arcane thesis- launch bolt. Then use Reach twinned split ray invisable launch bolt. Stack a few more mm cost reducers for metamagic to get it back down to 0. I think this results is something like 42 arrows per casting, before cl boosts.

Use arrows that have their own innate damage increase (their are 3 or 4 metals that do this).

Boost your init with improved init a good dex (strongheart halfling is best) and a hummingbird.

For fun, invisable felldrain sculpted caltrops is nasty.

A handfull of black sand, and stick. In the hair. Good luck with that.

Felldrain snap + several bags of marbles.

For Launch Bolt, remember that it doesn't care about size. Colossal Bolts are 6d6 (21) damage each, compared to the 1d8 (4.5) of Medium ones. Getting them enchanted to +5 is "free", in that it doesn't have prerequisite spells, as is Spell Storing. As for the Spell to Store, well, stack as much metamagic as you can while keeping it below level 4 - I'd maybe recommend Fell Drain Slash Tongue since that's typeless damage.

Of course, the issue with this is that the Fighter presumably has +5 mithril armor and shield as well as a +5 Cloak of Resistance. If the fighter is optimized to counter Launch Bolt, they'd have an AC of 34 while the Wizard only has +19ish to hit and thus only a 30% hit rate. Twinned Split Ray only does four copies of the spell, so you probably want to replace Reach with Ocular Spell to make that eight copies.

At a 30% hit rate, we can expect to do just 50.4 damage. The 20th-level Fighter has 150hp at 10 CON, so your rounds-to-kill (since Ocular Spell is a one-time deal) are 5.

The Fighter, meanwhile, probably realizes that without Rings of Protection you only have, like, AC14 maybe unless you want to risk the failure chance? With 18 Strength, a +5 Greatsword and Greater Weapon Focus, their Full Attack with -13/+26 Power Attack averages 147.31 damage. You have 140 hp if you have 18 CON, which you probably don't.

Since the battlefield is a 100ft radius, the Fighter can catch up to you (given constant charges on their part and move+spells on yours) in at most three-and-a-half rounds. The Wizard is very dead in this simple version of the scenario.


Now, if you allow Chain Spell to work with rays (which is really iffy and arguably not rules-legal) then I think you're shooting 168 bolts for 1,058 average damage. The Fighter is very dead.
And also you're metamagicing a somewhat broken 0th-level spell into a really high spell slot, so, well.

[Heavenblade]

If you include pathfinder, you could take a mesmerist with the eclipse spell (+0 metamagic feat), 1 metamagic reducer for the shadow's grasp feat, the restriction and sluggishness bold stares. you didn't kill him, but he is entangled, in darkness, with his speed reduced. from here, you can just snipe at him with a cantrip until he dies.

[liquidformat]

The one issue I see for the wizard, is most of the level reducing feats are focused on one specific spell, so in this thought experiment if you are restricted to using only 0 level spells before feats and magic items (which rules out abuse for things like wish) then the wizard except for conjuration specialists has no way to deal with a charging martial. Which means the wizard must kill the martial in one hit or dies...

[SirNibbles]

The one issue I see for the wizard, is most of the level reducing feats are focused on one specific spell, so in this thought experiment if you are restricted to using only 0 level spells before feats and magic items (which rules out abuse for things like wish) then the wizard except for conjuration specialists has no way to deal with a charging martial. Which means the wizard must kill the martial in one hit or dies...

As long as the martial doesn't have some way to fly, Caltrops will stop a charge. Also, breaking line of sight by using smoke or something similar will prevent charging.

[heavyfuel]

the wizard except for conjuration specialists has no way to deal with a charging martial. Which means the wizard must kill the martial in one hit or dies...

Even Abrupt Jaunt can't deal with archers since it can only dodge one arrow per round.

[AnimeTheCat]

As long as the martial doesn't have some way to fly, Caltrops will stop a charge. Also, breaking line of sight by using smoke or something similar will prevent charging.

That won't, however, stop the same character from running. Especially on flat, open terrain. Just angle to the side around or beside the caltrops/smoke so you don't have to run through difficult terrain or where you can't see. Wearing medium armor, a human can run 120 feet in one round (so mithral plate). You forfeit your dex bonus to AC (but this likely isn't much anyway), but you've crossed the entire field in a single full-round action.

Just wanted to say that is all. 100 feet is a pretty tight playing field when you consider that.

[liquidformat]

As long as the martial doesn't have some way to fly, Caltrops will stop a charge. Also, breaking line of sight by using smoke or something similar will prevent charging.

We never specified race so building a dragon born with wings or raptoran clears that up quite easily. For the caltrops specifically leap attack feat makes them moot. Also having any character with hips will end up being quite deadly for the wizard. In this case I believe your only option for smoke is Smokestick which if I am reading correctly takes at least a standard action maybe a full round action if you are using flint and steel (pretty sure doing so will cause aoo) so that might be an issue. Also since magically enhanced sight is more or less out unless you are pulling prcs or races to get things like blindsight smoke is a double edged sword that is probably more in the martial's favor as level 0 aoes few and far between.

All together the question comes down to, one can the wizard win initiative, and two can the wizard one shot the martial. Winning initiative is a toss up and I am hesitant to believe the wizard can one shot the martial with a cantrip.

Twin Repeated Ocular Fell Drain Sonic Snap, nope, four negative levels +4 sonic damage max.

As Gemini476 points out for launch bolt, this probably isn't a winning strategy until you start going into some hardcore stacking of metamagic. However, in this case with only one target I don't think chain spell actually works based on my reading of the spell you have to have 2 or more targets to use it? (might be misunderstanding something) Also adding split ray halves all your damage so it gives you more chances to hit but less over all damage so not sure if you are really gaining much by adding it in...

[Gemini476]

You're going to be at most 200 feet away from eachother at the start. Assuming that the Fighter has 30ft base speed, they can run that distance in two rounds with light encumberance, three in medium encumbrance, and three-and-a-half with heavy encumbrance. When they become adjacent (or a bit before that, with some reach weapons), the Wizard had better kill them in one shot or else have some method to survive a Full Attack.

So that's your time limit, I guess. Three rounds in the worst case scenario for the melee Fighter. (Less so for the archer, of course, who misses out on Power Attack but also gets a bunch of attacks in while the others try to close the distance.)

I suppose there's also the curious case of the lightly encumbered Run+Dash Fighter, who runs 175ft in one round and then gets to charge or move+standard action on the second. Pounce isn't really easily accessible to single-classed Fighters, though, so it's more of a worry with Barbarians. (But given the Force Wall, beware the Dungeon Crasher.)


Looking further into things, I guess the Launch Bolt strategy just superbly backfires in the face of the Dragonwrought Kobold's Infinite Deflection+Snatch Arrows. That wizened old dragon-monk will just throw them all back at you, although I suspect that the DEX 25 requirement would require some horrific template abuse given the age categories and all.

[Vizzerdrix]

Sculpt spell caltrops will fill far more of the arena than can be jumped over. Any number of meta magic can make such a large area too dangerous to traverse. Cloudy conjuration comes to mind.

Shapesand can make structures. Now the fighter has to assault a fortress that is only ever a standard action away from being repaired. A tiny fortress but still a fortress.

Race is a circle arguement. Your flying martial cant touch a burrowing caster, etc, etc.

[heavyfuel]

Sculpt spell caltrops will fill far more of the arena than can be jumped over. Any number of meta magic can make such a large area too dangerous to traverse. Cloudy conjuration comes to mind.

Shapesand can make structures. Now the fighter has to assault a fortress that is only ever a standard action away from being repaired. A tiny fortress but still a fortress.

Race is a circle arguement. Your flying martial cant touch a burrowing caster, etc, etc.

You mean all the 35ft you can cover with it before it's out of spell range? I'm sure a fighter 20 will have great difficulty jumping 30ft. blue text isn't really necessary, is it?

Shapesand is a stupid item, but even if we allow it, the argument here is also a circle. Anything your wizard can create out of shapesand, so can the fighter. Create two fortress, and we have a stalemate, which mean a victory for the Fighter, since the point is "How easily could the caster take down the mundane". If you just hide from each other, then no one takes anybody down, which means caster loses cannot, in fact, take down the mundane.

[ben-zayb]

I mean, casters only have so much cantrip spell slots or spells per day. Can we use higher level spell slots? If so, that also opens up Reserve feats.

[Vizzerdrix]

You mean all the 35ft you can cover with it before it's out of spell range? I'm sure a fighter 20 will have great difficulty jumping 30ft. blue text isn't really necessary, is it?

Shapesand is a stupid item, but even if we allow it, the argument here is also a circle. Anything your wizard can create out of shapesand, so can the fighter. Create two fortress, and we have a stalemate, which mean a victory for the Fighter, since the point is "How easily could the caster take down the mundane". If you just hide from each other, then no one takes anybody down, which means caster loses cannot, in fact, take down the mundane.

1: here is a link. You can go read what can be done with caltrops. http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=4571.msg74932#msg74932

2: what you are and aren't willing to allow isn't part of this. Keep your house rules at your own table.

3: Far from circular, unless the theory martial can invest in wis to the same degree as a caster. Without that, the martial will never be able to maintain control over enough sand to make more than a towershield at best.

[liquidformat]

Sculpt spell caltrops will fill far more of the arena than can be jumped over. Any number of meta magic can make such a large area too dangerous to traverse. Cloudy conjuration comes to mind.

Shapesand can make structures. Now the fighter has to assault a fortress that is only ever a standard action away from being repaired. A tiny fortress but still a fortress.

Race is a circle arguement. Your flying martial cant touch a burrowing caster, etc, etc.

Abusing caltrops is a decent idea, though not sure how much bang you will get out of it. For example any marital with a backup bow makes filling the stage with uber caltrops moot...

Shapesand is straight out unless you expect the martial to sit around and wait the 20+ min for you to create it. Similarly once broken shapesand takes dc minutes to repair so it isn't exactly the godly end all be all you are claiming. The martial will just walk over and take his aoos while you are attempting your 30min castle construction...

Not clear on multiclassing, race, template, or prc restrictions from OP but I would probably start with barbarian 2 to pickup pounce and improved trip, and wolf berserker, then into dungeon crasher fighter with knockdown, power attack, leap attack, and shock trooper as a decent start...

[heavyfuel]

1: here is a link. You can go read what can be done with caltrops. http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=4571.msg74932#msg74932

3: Far from circular, unless the theory martial can invest in wis to the same degree as a caster. Without that, the martial will never be able to maintain control over enough sand to make more than a towershield at best.

Caltrops are still bound to Close range and 20 rounds of duration. These can be worked with metamagic, but give the fighter a bow or a tower shield (so he can wait it out) or ranks in Autohypnosis or healing (Martial Study / Combat Vigor / Martial Stance / Draconic Aura) and he couldn't care less about your caltrops

Having a smaller fort than yours because of slightly lower Wis is besides the point. You'll still end up in a stalemate which is a Fighter victory,

[SirNibbles]

You mean all the 35ft you can cover with it before it's out of spell range? I'm sure a fighter 20 will have great difficulty jumping 30ft. blue text isn't really necessary, is it?

Shapesand is a stupid item, but even if we allow it, the argument here is also a circle. Anything your wizard can create out of shapesand, so can the fighter. Create two fortress, and we have a stalemate, which mean a victory for the Fighter, since the point is "How easily could the caster take down the mundane". If you just hide from each other, then no one takes anybody down, which means caster loses cannot, in fact, take down the mundane.

Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

20*5/2 = 50. 50+25 = 75.
__

I agree that if you add in certain things like magical locations which allow you to gain full damage immunity, it becomes a bit silly, especially since both sides can do it. I don't think that using shapesand to create some cover would be completely unreasonable.

[heavyfuel]

Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

20*5/2 = 50. 50+25 = 75.
__

I agree that if you add in certain things like magical locations which allow you to gain full damage immunity, it becomes a bit silly, especially since both sides can do it. I don't think that using shapesand to create some cover would be completely unreasonable.

You're right. I suck at math. But the point still stands. This fighter should definitely fight using ranged weapons. He shouldn't care a bit about caltrops because he shouldn't ever move. I'm thinking Throwing Weapons since they can easily kill the Wizard in a single full-attack or single crit. As soon as the Wizard approaches the fighter (which is necessary for anything other than Long range spells), he full attacks (or uses his readied action).

Use shapesand to gain full cover, and the fighter wins by default.

[liquidformat]

I still don't think shapesand is a viable option unless you are given a lot of prep time...

[Gemini476]

One issue with shapesand is, well, counter-builds. Much like Launch Bolt gets beaten by infinite snatch arrows and caltrops by, well, ordinary arrows, shapesand has the issue of "hey, what if the Fighter has as much Wisdom as you do and wrests control of it from you?"

To succeed in overcoming the Fighter 20, you need to be able to do at least two things so that the Fighter can't be built to counter all of them simultaneously. Preferably you have two kill options, so they don't just build to counter Launch Bolts and then slowly wade through your low-damage caltrops like they're the Terminator.


Come think of it, here's an issue: rather than worrying about how the Fighter can kill the Wizard, is it possible to build a defensive-only Fighter that the Wizard simply can't kill? A stalemate is a victory for the Fighter in this case, since the question is "can a Wizard kill a Fighter 20 with only cantrips, and if so how low level".I talked up that Dragonwrought Snatch Arrows thing because it kills the Wizard, but they could also just be an ordinary Fighter with Spinning Defense and be immune to arrows after their first turn. That takes four feats and 13 INT/DEX (Combat Expertise, IUS, Deflect Arrows, Spinning Defense), so they've got plenty to spare for other degenerate defensive strategies. This does mean that they have to win initiative, though, so perhaps that's exploitable.

Caltrops is entirely neutralized by simply moving at half speed. For example, by 5-foot stepping while Full Defense stick-twirling.

If they're a Warforged, they're immune to Energy Drain and thus Fell Drain isn't an issue. Also, they don't need to sleep so they can just spin away with that polearm forever.

If you don't have to attack, the Wizard being in a fort doesn't matter. The Fighter being in a fort kind of does, but Shapesand's a fool's game when either side could collapse it.

A twentieth-level Wizard has 60-70 spell slots. Is that enough to be able to kill a full-health Fighter in one day? Sixty unmetamagiced Rays of Frost is 180 damage, but averages 120 and the Fighter has 150hp before CON. STR is a dump stat and they only need 13 DEX/INT, so they can easily afford 24 for 290hp. If you can't average that in a day, you've got problems - you need to sleep to regain spells, which leaves you vulnerable.

Heck, if you need to sleep then the Fighter can shuffle over while you're unconscious and do a coup de grace. Scythes are polearms, and they can afford 13 STR for Power Attack and an automatic +160 damage. You don't want that happening, so I'd probably recommend the Wizard also being non-living.

[daremetoidareyo]

Outside of fell drain, is there any other option to deal non hp damage?


Hmm. 60-70 spell slots. Message is the spell that can kill the fighter, if, if they aren't immune to fatigue. 200 minutes duration per casting. Just keep the fighter awake for days.

As seen in the entry for the Appalling Fecundity sign; Elder Evils page 9:
"A living creature can go without sleep for a number of days equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum one). Thereafter it is fatigued, remaining in this state for a number of days equal to its Constitution modifier (again, minimum one); if it would become fatigued during that time, it is exhausted instead. Each day after that period, the creature takes 1 point of Wisdom damage. If the total Wisdom damage exceeds its Hit Dice, the creature is affected as if by an insanity spell.
(the effects above can only be alleviated by sleep, and the Wisdom damage continues to accumulate thereafter until the creature falls unconscious)"

So...stab your own ears to so that you're deaf to replies. Be immune to fatigue yourself, or not need to sleep (waeforged), or get really really bad sleep apnea, and cast message over and over for days. No save, they have to listen to you. If you have some sort of goad or intimidate boost, you can do that too. Eventually they die of wisdom damage.

[heavyfuel]

A twentieth-level Wizard has 60-70 spell slots. Is that enough to be able to kill a full-health Fighter in one day? Sixty unmetamagiced Rays of Frost is 180 damage, but averages 120 and the Fighter has 150hp before CON. STR is a dump stat and they only need 13 DEX/INT, so they can easily afford 24 for 290hp. If you can't average that in a day, you've got problems - you need to sleep to regain spells, which leaves you vulnerable

Battles of attrition aren't going to help since the Fighter can heal via Draconic Aura. With Dragonblood subtype it heals 4hp/round (once he's below 50%)

[Jowgen]

On the issue of getting concealment to prevent charges, I think an alchemical solution (pun intended) would work. In general, since Alchemy crafting requires casting, I think it is fair game to take full advantage of the stuff.

Liquid Smoke (OA) in an Oil Chamber or 4, Swift action to spray it out, should work since exposure to air is all that is required, only nets us 1 round at a time though.

I think Launch Item might make a good spell, combined with splash weapons of our choice.

For one by using Eggshell Grenades (Dust) from OA, we can inflict 1d4 rounds of blindess no save. Can be an extra layer of protection to the Liquid Smoke if need be.

For damage, I am personally a fan of using stoneglass flasks with Green Slime (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?574442-Fun-with-Green-Slime). 1d2 Con damage on hit IIRC, repeating unless actions are wasted on scraping it off. If we can get multiple hits, either via metamagic, the fighter being too stupid to scrape it off right away, or by making creative use of our familiar (they're a class feature, should be fair game), its a death sentence. Especially if multiple hits also stack to con damage. Aboleth Mucus is a close second, though it allows a save.

Neither will work on Undead though. If the undead fighter is evil, the Golden Ice ravage would work, since it's contact and can thus be applied to whatever splash weapon we want to launch. The stuff burns through poison immunity, undead have terrible fort saves. If not evil, Alchemical Flare stakes will work on all undead, but how to apply them in this scenario or deal with fire resistance is a different issue.

Those are my initial thoughts, sure there is more ways to murder mundanes through launching alchemical stuff.

EDIT: Note on familiar, giving a raven familiar a wand of Launch Item will easily double the amount of stuff we can chuck.

[liquidformat]

Outside of fell drain, is there any other option to deal non hp damage?


Hmm. 60-70 spell slots. Message is the spell that can kill the fighter, if, if they aren't immune to fatigue. 200 minutes duration per casting. Just keep the fighter awake for days.

As seen in the entry for the Appalling Fecundity sign; Elder Evils page 9:
"A living creature can go without sleep for a number of days equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum one). Thereafter it is fatigued, remaining in this state for a number of days equal to its Constitution modifier (again, minimum one); if it would become fatigued during that time, it is exhausted instead. Each day after that period, the creature takes 1 point of Wisdom damage. If the total Wisdom damage exceeds its Hit Dice, the creature is affected as if by an insanity spell.
(the effects above can only be alleviated by sleep, and the Wisdom damage continues to accumulate thereafter until the creature falls unconscious)"

So...stab your own ears to so that you're deaf to replies. Be immune to fatigue yourself, or not need to sleep (waeforged), or get really really bad sleep apnea, and cast message over and over for days. No save, they have to listen to you. If you have some sort of goad or intimidate boost, you can do that too. Eventually they die of wisdom damage.

Casting message spells is a joke of a strategy, your idea is to cast spells that does no damage and in no way restricts the fighter, he will just power attack you, shoot you with arrows, or whatever, no way you will be able to hide for long enough to make this strategy work.


I think Launch Item might make a good spell

Launch item is a level 1 spell so it is outside the frame work of this experiment and without it fighter archer wins before you can get close enough to use any alchemical items.

[heavyfuel]

Launch item is a level 1 spell so it is outside the frame work of this experiment and without it fighter archer wins before you can get close enough to use any alchemical items.

Spell Compendium made it a Cantrip with reduced range (from Long to Touch->Medium)

Although I wonder if Deflect Arrows could deflect an Eggshell grenade. If it can deflect, the strategy is useless.

[daremetoidareyo]

Casting message spells is a joke of a strategy, your idea is to cast spells that does no damage and in no way restricts the fighter, he will just power attack you, shoot you with arrows, or whatever, no way you will be able to hide for long enough to make this strategy work.



I dunno, paired with caltrops and some hiding and running, maybe after 8 days + 1 day per point of wisdom of nonstop messaging running caltropping and hiding.

[jintoya]

The easiest solution for the fighter.... Is just leaving and surviving, if you make a fighter focused entirely around move speed, take feats to up your move speed and go the opposite direction of the wizard, stack con So you can make the fortitude saves from a forced March and get lost... Then come back for a surprise attack while the wizard sleeps! (Warforged bypasses the need for sleep)

If this is some kind of chess board where tactical retreats are impossible... Then give the fighter a shovel and dig a trench with your great strength, play keep-away and when he comes closer, slay him.

I suppose a race with a grapple bonus could possibly end a wizard who gets close

And it could be argued that a snow shovel would deal with caltrops, but likely only if the ground was flat, so an arena stops the trench but allows for him to snow-plough the obstacles.

But I think we need to know:
the environment
The time limit on slaying the fighter (if any)
Prep time (if any)
Loadout (capability)

I'm assuming that stats are equal and distributed intelligently for each situationituation (plus additional ones to accommodate the fighter being 20th lvl
For instance, there aren't going to realistically be any fighters with low Con & Str, (or Dex for Dex builds) even the most glass-cannon fighter should put a good stat in con.

Also, are these both PC's or NPC's?
It's worth asking to know if some things can affect them
(Example: you can't use charm on a PC because they lack a starting attitude)

[heavyfuel]

The easiest solution for the fighter.... Is just leaving and surviving

If this is some kind of chess board where tactical retreats are impossible... Then give the fighter a shovel and dig a trench with your great strength, play keep-away and when he comes closer, slay him.

But I think we need to know:
the environment

We know the environment.


The fight takes place on a flat plain surrounded by a 100 foot radius sphere of force (which extends through the ground)

[Jowgen]

Spell Compendium made it a Cantrip with reduced range (from Long to Touch->Medium)

Damn straight it did :smallcool:


Although I wonder if Deflect Arrows could deflect an Eggshell grenade. If it can deflect, the strategy is useless.

Questionable whether Deflect Arrows would work against splash weapons, considering they're designed to break on impact. Snatch Arrows would definitely work though, if the fighter has a free hand.

Either case though, since either feat only works/turn, it can still work once the familiar gets in on the fun with their wand of Launch Object. Plus there is the "not flatfooted/aware of attack" stipulation that can help.

As a side note, a Tanglefoot Bag would be the ideal thing to use on first lauch against a melee type, since even a made save limits them to half speed for 2d4 rounds, iirc preventing charging.

[liquidformat]

I dunno, paired with caltrops and some hiding and running, maybe after 8 days + 1 day per point of wisdom of nonstop messaging running caltropping and hiding.

Caltrops prevent running, hiding is completely dependent on acquiring hips as no level 1+ spells, still not buying this as a particularly viable much less good strategy.


Spell Compendium made it a Cantrip with reduced range (from Long to Touch->Medium)

Although I wonder if Deflect Arrows could deflect an Eggshell grenade. If it can deflect, the strategy is useless.

Oh missed that! Reading through Deflect Arrow it seems to cover alchemical items as they are a ranged weapons...

reading through splash weapons and deflect arrows I think deflect arrow does work and you would treat it as a missed attack.

[jintoya]

We know the environment.

I doofed it, I read the whole thread before posting, just slipped my mind due to input.
But, the rest is still relevant, I'd like to know what we are allowed for builds, for instance, can it be any variant of fighter (there are a metric ton of options there, assumed official only) and does the fighter have access to the expected total wealth he is expected to have?

Is the floor dirt, tile, stone etc?

Also... What about foot-wear that negates caltrops?
Wood sandals worked wonders for samurai, and it's something I do with my high level martials constantly by having custom sabatons made... Custom armor should be expected for an epic fighter

[Gemini476]

Spell Compendium made it a Cantrip with reduced range (from Long to Touch->Medium)

Although I wonder if Deflect Arrows could deflect an Eggshell grenade. If it can deflect, the strategy is useless.

Deflect Arrows work on pretty much everything except siege weaponry and actual spell effects. If you use the strategy I proposed (there might be a more difficult opponent), the Spinning DefenseDragon Compendium Warforged can be immune to thrown weapons pretty much forever.

You can still hit them with the splash, though, you just need to target their square instead of them. Eggshell grenades are kind of worthless since the blindness just stops the Fighter from killing you and they don't have to kill you to win, and Aboleth Mucus might not work on Warforged since they don't need to breathe (not sure on that). Looking up Jowgen's post on the matter it seems like Green Slime flasks don't have splash damage, so they're a no-go.

It's a tricky opponent, for sure. How much straight damage can you get out of 70 spell slots, anyhow? Twin, Split Ray, Maximized, Empower and Heighten can all combine to get quite the variety of damage numbers. As long as you keep moving while casting and have one slot reserved for an extremely metamagic'd Launch Bolt so the Fighter can't afford to get out of Full Defense, I wonder how much you could pump out. Maybe offence is the best defense after all.

[heavyfuel]

How much straight damage can you get out of 70 spell slots, anyhow?

Little to the point of being irrelevant.

The Fighter keeps its full defense until you show up from hiding and cast a single spell. Now it's the Fighter's turn and he full-attacks you to death from range.

[jintoya]

Maybe we should start high with the assured victory of the wizard, then crank the level down until we lose to the optimized fighter.

Let's just assume that we average HP values, how much damage can a melee focused fighter do at lvl 20?
and at what level does the wizard actually have the ability to win most of the time?

What level would the wizard have to be before he can kill the fighter without being outright killed a majority of the time?

[Gemini476]

Little to the point of being irrelevant.

The Fighter keeps its full defense until you show up from hiding and cast a single spell. Now it's the Fighter's turn and he full-attacks you to death from range.

If he can full attack from range, he's not using Spinning Defense (you need to use a polearm - I suggest a scythe for the Coup de Grace) and thus is susceptible to every single thrown item trick you can come up with. If he's using Spinning Defense, on the other hand, he's using a two-handed weapon and thus can't swap to a bow quick enough to matter unless he's got four arms (in which case they'd better still be undead etc. or die to Twinned Split Ray Fell Drain whatever).

Besides, ranged full attacks aren't quite as scary as melee ones. Hank's Energy Bow requires Magic Missile to craft and is thus unavailable, so they don't get Power Attack analogues. It'll kill the Wizard quickly, don't get me wrong, but it's not exactly the one-round kill threatened by melee.


But yeah, Dragontouched+Draconic Aura sure does negate the entire cantrip damage argument with its 4hp/turn healing, huh. Guess I'll add CHA 11 and two feats to the target build, then.


ENEMY BUILD SO FAR:
Warforged Fighter 20
CHA 11, DEX 13, INT 13, CON 24, STR 8, WIS 6, one PB point left and one levelup point. (Lowering CON is possible, it's just there for the hit points.)
1. Dragontouched
1b. Improved Unarmed Strike
2b. Combat Expertise
3. Draconic Aura (Vigor)
4b. Deflect Arrows
6. Spinning Defense
6b-20b are left empty for later use, skills likewise. Weapon is a scythe, strategy is to Spinning Defence until the cows come home and either wait for the Wizard to fall asleep or else win by stalemate.

[liquidformat]

Maybe we should start high with the assured victory of the wizard, then crank the level down until we lose to the optimized fighter.

Let's just assume that we average HP values, how much damage can a melee focused fighter do at lvl 20?
and at what level does the wizard actually have the ability to win most of the time?

What level would the wizard have to be before he can kill the fighter without being outright killed a majority of the time?

From what has been presented here I would say at no level does the wizard even have above average chance of winning given the constraints of this thought game. Level 0 spells are not good enough even with abuse to let wizards win. Their most powerful choice is launch bolt, or launch item either of which are countered by deflect arrow+Spinning Defense. All the martial has to do is move in slowly until the wizard runs out of spells and then game over.

Maybe we should look at level 1 spells?

[Maat Mons]

Are we sure the fighter can't craft alchemical items? I think a gnome's SLAs qualify him as "a spellcaster," even if he's a fighter 20.

Immunity to poison is probably going to be important for both sides.

A spirit hellbred gets telepathy at 15 HD. So the mindsight feat is on the table for both sides. I don't think hiding will work.



From what I've read so far, I feel like the necropolitain template applied to something with the dragonblood subtype is the fighter's best bet. Necropolitain provides immunity to many nasty things (like fell drain, fell frighten, and green slime). The dragonblood subtype is a requirement of the dragonscale husk ACF, which as noted before gives resistance 20 to acid, cold, electricity, and fire. And dragonblood also opens up feats to gain flight, which could be handy.



For class, I'm tempted to go with that Dragon Mag barbarian variant that gets heavy armor, so it can be traded for dragonscale husk. Then add in the Dragon Mag ACF that gives +5 to all saves, just in case. And the fangshield ACF (since undead aren't humanoids) for +60 feet to speed when charging. Oh, and the Cityscape one that lets you move 4x your speed on a charge. So that's 360 feet per charge.

[Jowgen]

Spinning Defense shuts down the per round limit of Deflect Arrows, but not the "not flatfooted & aware of attack" limitation of it, so we can still capitalize off that.

Unless the fighter gets uncanny dodge somehow (possible on barb unless traded out), as long as we can win initiative we or our familiar should be able to hit it with an Eggshell grenade on turn one. As long as the fighter is blinded, spinning defense should be disabled if I read it right, opening up other splash weapon attacks so long as we regularly re-apply.

Alternatively, we could spend a feat to get Hide as a class skill and use Liquid Smoke or another alchemical/mundane concealment provider to make attacks that avoid awareness. Would synergize with the initiative thing, and unless a feat is spent, neither standard fighters nor barbarians get spot as a class skill (plus they're likely dumping Wisdom anyway).

EDIT: Also, are we assuming that the fighter has means to protect his equipment? Because IIRC nothing would prevent us from targeting his weapon with Slime or another corrosive agent.

[heavyfuel]

If he can full attack from range, he's not using Spinning Defense

Besides, ranged full attacks aren't quite as scary as melee ones. Hank's Energy Bow requires Magic Missile to craft and is thus unavailable, so they don't get Power Attack analogues.

Free action drop + quick draw and yes he is.

You can still power throw, which is what I've been suggesting. And whatever do you mean by "not as scary"? Boomerang daze means every hit you need a Fort save vs Daze, and the Fighter gets a bunch of attacks per round.

[Gemini476]

Free action drop + quick draw and yes he is.

You can still power throw, which is what I've been suggesting. And whatever do you mean by "not as scary"? Boomerang daze means every hit you need a Fort save vs Daze, and the Fighter gets a bunch of attacks per round.

It's "not as scary" because if a Fighter gets in melee you're dead the next round, while boomerang daze is in the "you might survive a round or two, maybe" area. In any case, no matter the build it seems like the Cantrip Wizard is in dire straights and only maybe wins if they win initiative and can blind the Fighter.


Actually, you know what? Let's make that impossible. We're pulling out the big guns here:
Level 9 feat: Sacred Vow.
Level 12 feat: Vow of Nonviolence.
Level 15 feat: Vow of Peace.

Nonmagical weapons (such as eggshell grenades) now just straight-up shatter harmlessly against the Fighter's highly pious wood-metal-alloy body, and even magical weapons (such as Launched +5 Bolts) have at most a +12 bonus vs. DC27 (a 30% chance of success).


Really, though, the failure of this entire exercise should probably have been expected. It's somewhat common knowledge that Wizards don't become really overpowered until ~4th level spells (and only actually godlike with ~9th), with them being somewhat low-tier at level 1 - the Cantrip-Only Wizard is a level 1 Wizard with more cantrips and the ability to, a limited number of times per day, cast four cantrips at once. They don't even have the actually broken stuff the level 1 Wizard has access to, like Sleep and so on.

[SirNibbles]

Free action drop + quick draw and yes he is.

You can still power throw, which is what I've been suggesting. And whatever do you mean by "not as scary"? Boomerang daze means every hit you need a Fort save vs Daze, and the Fighter gets a bunch of attacks per round.

You can't attack at all while using total defense.

[heavyfuel]

You can't attack at all while using total defense.

So...? You total defense to block alchemical weapons. If the caster ends his turn on your line of sight, you simply don't use the total defense in your next round

[jintoya]

Let's not forget that the fighter could just pull a nice bow out and snipe any bottles you pull out by attacking your weapon, I've had bandits do this when the party alchemist was getting cocky and a lil OP, when he got hit by his own concoctions, he sobered up quickly.

Yes it's a hard target, but he's an epic level fighter

[Gemini476]

So...? You total defense to block alchemical weapons. If the caster ends his turn on your line of sight, you simply don't use the total defense in your next round

If they're optimized for that single task, they can just get one of the many split-move feats out there. Shot on the Run, for thrown weapons, or Mobile Spell-Casting for spells like Launch Item. Move out of cover, cast, move back into cover.

It still gets completely nullified by Vow of Peace (which is a terrible feat for ordinary games, but very useful for one-shot defensive scenarios like this).

[heavyfuel]

If they're optimized for that single task, they can just get one of the many split-move feats out there. Shot on the Run, for thrown weapons, or Mobile Spell-Casting for spells like Launch Item. Move out of cover, cast, move back into cover.

It still gets completely nullified by Vow of Peace (which is a terrible feat for ordinary games, but very useful for one-shot defensive scenarios like this).

Tbh, the total defense action isn't really necessary since the Wizard can only Launch one item per round (not even gonna consider the Raven with UMD since it needs to get close to you and it dies with a stern look) and since Launch Bolt can be dealt with by having Adamantine heavy armor and also by arguing that no DM would allow 42 free actions in a round, since it's something explicitly up to the DM.

Just keep one hand free and Deflect/Snatch whatever the Wizard is throwing, then ready your action to attack the wizard. Even if he Abrupt Jaunts away, you just wait for him to show up again.

[Troacctid]

I think the martial character is going to win the vast majority of times unless there's a reeeally significant disparity in optimization between the two. Cantrips are fundamentally just doing the same thing a martial character is doing, except worse. I think your best bet as the caster here is to play a gish build, do roughly the same thing your opponent is doing, and use quickened cantrips to close the gap between your class features. If you play your cards right, you might be able to get it above 50/50.

[Heliomance]

Gnome Illusionist sub level casts Silent Image as a cantrip. Go full Shadowcraft Mage casting Heightened Silent Images mimicking Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation with >100% quasireality.

[heavyfuel]

Gnome Illusionist sub level casts Silent Image as a cantrip. Go full Shadowcraft Mage casting Heightened Silent Images mimicking Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation with >100% quasireality.

The OP specifies Wizard or Sorcerer. Even if we're allowing PrCs, the OP specifies that Supernatural abilities (such as Shadow Illusion (Su)) cannot mimic higher level spells. You even used the term mimic there.

[Jowgen]

What we have covered so far for pretty certain is that dealing straight up damage to the Fighter is most likely going to fail, as we can't outpace whatever source of fast healing is at work.

Ability damage by means of alchemical/poison stuff seems to be the best bet to kill/disable the fighter, but we are struggling dealing with the multitude of defensive options the fighter can get from feats.

Adapting to immunities has been touch and go, since the wide range of alchemical items there are give a lot of options to target various weaknesses, but not all are equally effective.

Meanwhile, the fighter has several viable means of killing us that we are having to counter, which largely boil down to line of sight stuff.

Using our familiar to win via action economy abuse has been touched upon not thoroughly explored.

One weakness of martials that hasn't been properly considered as a weakness yet is their absolute reliance on equipment.

Assuming the fighter is under the same magic item constraints as we are (which seems to have been assumed, though I don't think nailed down as a strict stipulation), their equipment remains vulnerable to destruction.

Riverine weaponry would likely remedy this, but as its creation references wall of force, I don't think it fits the constraints.

[daremetoidareyo]

That gnome illusionist/UA illusionist can get access to HIPS, which means that the message them to death technique over the course of 18-25 days might work. Plus you have silent image and ghostsounds to create all sorts of mental interference.

[Jowgen]

That gnome illusionist/UA illusionist can get access to HIPS, which means that the message them to death technique over the course of 18-25 days might work. Plus you have silent image and ghostsounds to create all sorts of mental interference.

In this line, The Failed Shadow Gate magical location from Cormyr The Tearing of the Weave grants dark template for 5000 gp. Since it's a magical location benefit that counts against WBL, the LA shouldn't apply any more than it does with the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (though that can also be argued about).

Also makes us faster and harder to spot, with Cold Resistance. Which, if we're undead, opens up using shadow slime for a bit of pseudo fast healing, for all the good that does.


And since we're already in this line, where do the Ritual-granted Su abilities from Lords of Darkness fall in terms of legality? Ritual of Shadow Walking & Ritual of the Dark flames don't reference being based on spells and might be useful.

[liquidformat]

That gnome illusionist/UA illusionist can get access to HIPS, which means that the message them to death technique over the course of 18-25 days might work. Plus you have silent image and ghostsounds to create all sorts of mental interference.

spirit hellbred Necropolitan takes mindsight at level 15 when he gains telepathy which forces the caster to take darkstalker, Guerilla Scout feat makes listen and spot only cast 1 skill point for fighter. If all the wizard is doing is hiding and casting non threatening spells, even with maxed hide skill the fighter is going to find him whenever he moves and with blind-fight feat it isn't going to be that hard to kill him either...

[Gemini476]

You don't need 42 free actions to launch 42 bolts, you just need drop a bundle of bolts on the floor and then Chain Spell automatically works its way through the rest. Chain spell only works on ranged spells, remember, so you no longer need to manually grab each bolt to affect it.

But the real reason that doesn't work is because using Chain Spell with rays is really iffy since rays are generally an effect.


That gnome illusionist/UA illusionist can get access to HIPS, which means that the message them to death technique over the course of 18-25 days might work. Plus you have silent image and ghostsounds to create all sorts of mental interference.

Messaging them to death doesn't work if they don't need to sleep in the first place, like with the suggested (dragonblooded) necropolitan or warforged Fighters. Good call on the Wizard survivability front, although it still doesn't solve the "Fighter wins in a draw" issue. Or the bit where you eventually run out of spells and need to rest for multiple hours during which the Fighter could find you.

[liquidformat]

You don't need 42 free actions to launch 42 bolts, you just need drop a bundle of bolts on the floor and then Chain Spell automatically works its way through the rest. Chain spell only works on ranged spells, remember, so you no longer need to manually grab each bolt to affect it.

But the real reason that doesn't work is because using Chain Spell with rays is really iffy since rays are generally an effect.

You are overlooking the fact that this in no way works, in fact chain spell is worthless in this scenario:


Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch can be chained so as to affect that primary target normally, then arc to a number of secondary targets equal to your caster level (maximum 20). Each arc affects one secondary target chosen by you, all of which must be within 30 feet of the primary target, and none of which can be affected more than once. You can choose to affect fewer secondary targets than the maximum. If the chained spell deals damage, the secondary targets each take half as much damage as the primary target (rounded down) and can attempt Reflex saving throws for half damage (whether the spell allows the original target a save or not). For spells that don't deal damage, the save DCs against arcing effects are reduced by 4. For example, if a 10th-level wizard normally casts cause fear at DC 14, a chained cause fear could target a goblin chieftain at DC 14 and up to ten of his nearby guards at DC 10. A chained spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.

Chain spell affects the primary target and then secondary targets and each can only be affected once. In this situation we only have one target so chain spell is worthless.

[daremetoidareyo]

You are overlooking the fact that this in no way works, in fact chain spell is worthless in this scenario:



Chain spell affects the primary target and then secondary targets and each can only be affected once. In this situation we only have one target so chain spell is worthless.

Could one choose armor or weapons as targets? using ranged sunder rules?

[AnimeTheCat]

Here's a question, are we considering a +1 weapon to be replicating or mimicking a magic weapon spell? I personally dont think it does, I think that they are the same term (enhancement bonus) but different.

The only reason I say this is because if the fighter has a magic weapon, you can't sunder it unless you also are using a magic weapon (of equal or greater enhancement bonus). I think this same rule applies to armor as well, so unless you're throwing a bundle of +1 bolts on the ground, sundering with ranged sunder won't work.

[Troacctid]

Here's a question, are we considering a +1 weapon to be replicating or mimicking a magic weapon spell? I personally dont think it does, I think that they are the same term (enhancement bonus) but different.

The only reason I say this is because if the fighter has a magic weapon, you can't sunder it unless you also are using a magic weapon (of equal or greater enhancement bonus). I think this same rule applies to armor as well, so unless you're throwing a bundle of +1 bolts on the ground, sundering with ranged sunder won't work.
What rule is this?

[AnimeTheCat]

What rule is this?

Dmg PG 222 under hardness and hit points

An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon or shield struck.
That's the one, but like I said, I dunno if that applies to armor.

[Troacctid]

Dmg PG 222 under hardness and hit points

That's the one, but like I said, I dunno if that applies to armor.
Okay, I see your problem.

Hardness and Hit Points
Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 222
Problem: The first paragraph is not consistent with similar information for shields on page 217.
Solution: Delete the first sentence after the boldface header. Change the next sentence to read as follows: Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points.
Looks like you missed an errata.

[Heliomance]

The OP specifies Wizard or Sorcerer. Even if we're allowing PrCs, the OP specifies that Supernatural abilities (such as Shadow Illusion (Su)) cannot mimic higher level spells. You even used the term mimic there.

Except it's not the supernatural ability doing the mimicking, the ability is modifying the cantrip - you're casting a 0th level spell which is then mimicking a higher level spell. That's entirely within the rules as written, assuming PrCs are allowed.

[SirNibbles]

Except it's not the supernatural ability doing the mimicking, the ability is modifying the cantrip - you're casting a 0th level spell which is then mimicking a higher level spell. That's entirely within the rules as written, assuming PrCs are allowed.

I don't see an issue with allowing PrCs as long it's still the same idea of full martial vs full caster.

As for the spells, the intent was to limit your spells known to cantrips. As you seem to be doing that, I would say it's fine in the spirit of the challenge. EDIT: Serves me right for half-reading late at night. I'd actually lean toward not allowing it. The rules are mostly there to try to make us actually have to use the cantrips, not 8th level spells being mimicked by a heightened cantrip.

__

Either way, it seems like this challenge favours the martial because every time someone comes up with an idea that could work, someone else counters what the martial could do to counter it. Of course, nobody would build a 20th level fighter just to counter a wizard who can only cast cantrips.

Still, it is quite fun to see the great ideas being tossed around to deal with a massive handicap.

[Heliomance]

Either way, it seems like this challenge favours the martial because every time someone comes up with an idea that could work, someone else counters what the martial could do to counter it. Of course, nobody would build a 20th level fighter just to counter a wizard who can only cast cantrips.

I suspect the martial would be hard put to beat my Shadowcraft Mage idea - I think access to the whole of Evocation and half of Conjuration up to 9th level is probably enough to take anything the martial can dish out.

[AnimeTheCat]

Okay, I see your problem.

Looks like you missed an errata.

derp on me... I even have the errata in the back of my book and didn't think to check. That's kind of a dumb thing to errata out IMO. It makes sense that nonmagical weapons wouldn't work against magical ones... oh well.

[Heliomance]

EDIT: Serves me right for half-reading late at night. I'd actually lean toward not allowing it. The rules are mostly there to try to make us actually have to use the cantrips, not 8th level spells being mimicked by a heightened cantrip.

8th? Nah, Earth Spell gets you all the way to 9th, and Shadowcaster means that if your targets make their save to disbelieve, the spell has something like 130% of its normal effect. I fully admit that this is not remotely within the spirit of the contest rules, but it is absolutely within the letter of them!

[liquidformat]

Could one choose armor or weapons as targets? using ranged sunder rules?

Hum, an interesting way to go about it. I can't find anything going over treating armor, weapons, and equipment as separate 'targets' from the creature wearing them. Maybe my rules fu isn't high enough. For the moment I will go with possibly valid but up to DM fiat?


Except it's not the supernatural ability doing the mimicking, the ability is modifying the cantrip - you're casting a 0th level spell which is then mimicking a higher level spell. That's entirely within the rules as written, assuming PrCs are allowed.

I still think this is covered by premise of the thread, using spells above level 0 is a hard no, just because you have a sneaky way to get those spells doesn't change the fact that it is against the rules as stated.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is there any cantrip use (barring perhaps shadowcraft shenanigans) that could deal with this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863)?

Honestly, I think this is the most versatile non-casting, non-manifesting, non-ToB martial build I've ever encountered, as well as one of the most powerful ones. Note that only a couple of monk levels are actually necessary; the rest of the monk levels are there strictly to meet the trial specifications. Exchanging most of the monk levels for more powerful non-monk levels (such as psychic warrior) would boost its power and versatility considerably.

[jintoya]

I am usually all for shenanigans, but let's assume this fight is overseen By Mephistopheles, it's a controlled environment to test magic and he won't allow a technicality to muck up his tests.

Anything over 0-level spells, mimicking or effectively acting as them will auto fail. Otherwise it trivializes the whole point of the test.

[Troacctid]

Is there any cantrip use (barring perhaps shadowcraft shenanigans) that could deal with this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863)?

Honestly, I think this is the most versatile non-casting, non-manifesting, non-ToB martial build I've ever encountered, as well as one of the most powerful ones. Note that only a couple of monk levels are actually necessary; the rest of the monk levels are there strictly to meet the trial specifications. Exchanging most of the monk levels for more powerful non-monk levels (such as psychic warrior) would boost its power and versatility considerably.
I imagine it's a lot easier to deal with once you remove the stuff that doesn't work in the rules.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I imagine it's a lot easier to deal with once you remove the stuff that doesn't work in the rules.You mean Tippy's rules? Because I don't see any.

[Troacctid]

You mean Tippy's rules? Because I don't see any.
No, I mean using the whole body as an unarmed strike. The rules for the monk only allow for fists, elbows, knees, and feet.

(I'm sure some of the magic items break the rules of this thread as well.)

[daremetoidareyo]

Snowcasting, flashfrost spell caltrops.

Heighten spell touch of fatigue black lore of moil in all 8th level slots. Empowered heightened moiled fatigues touches in 6th level slots. 36 damage each. Arcane thesis on empowered looked heightened touch of fatigue to fill up 9th level slots. 14d6 damage each.

Energy sub (cold) and admixture to double all of those damage dice. Reach spell to your liking. You should be able to crest the hp threshold with enough moil runes.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No, I mean using the whole body as an unarmed strike. The rules for the monk only allow for fists, elbows, knees, and feet.

(I'm sure some of the magic items break the rules of this thread as well.)What would you consider a clothesline, then? Or a shoulder-check? Body slam? Headbutt? Knee-to-the-groin?

The entire monk's body can be used as a weapon. It would have to be, else none of those would be possible, and they very much are IRL. I doubt a monk (especially at high level) is less proficient in smacking people than real people, and unarmed strikes are any attacks made without a weapon (which would include the above, by default).

[Maat Mons]

Before we get into a debate over the RAW of a monk gaining hardness via effects that affect weapons, can we just check to see if any of those hardness-granting effects are legal for this competition in the first place?

This competition doesn't allow spells of 1st level or higher. So the castings of Hardening, Matter Manipulation, and Greater Magic Weapon are right out.

This competition even rules out magic items that have a spell of 1st level or higher as a prerequisite. So the Crystal of Adamant Armor and the Crystal of Adamant Weaponry are out too.

Does that actually leave any hardness-granting effects to argue over?

[liquidformat]

Snowcasting, flashfrost spell caltrops.

Heighten spell touch of fatigue black lore of moil in all 8th level slots. Empowered heightened moiled fatigues touches in 6th level slots. 36 damage each. Arcane thesis on empowered looked heightened touch of fatigue to fill up 9th level slots. 14d6 damage each.

Energy sub (cold) and admixture to double all of those damage dice. Reach spell to your liking. You should be able to crest the hp threshold with enough moil runes.

Hum, so we said above spirit hellbred Necropolitan as the race, so touch of fatigue is just flat out as it requires a fort save (also immune ti fatigue). Even ignoring that I am unsure if Black Lore of Moil can have its damage type changed since it isn't an energy type. Though might be wrong on that, maybe Maxi or Troacctid would know?

Also if you can somehow pull dragonblood subtype in there like Maat Mons suggests and take dragonscale husk ACF you would give cold res, add The Failed Shadow Gate magical location like Jowgen suggests for more cold res and a couple sources of fast healing...

[Jowgen]

No, I mean using the whole body as an unarmed strike. The rules for the monk only allow for fists, elbows, knees, and feet.

This holds true in PHB only, but if web material is on the table then the relevant characters with class article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050310a)it extends to "Unarmed Strike: A monk's hands and feet (and the rest of her body, when necessary) are effective weapons when she begins play, and they just keep getting better as she progresses."

Not that it matters though, since...


Does that actually leave any hardness-granting effects to argue over?

Arguably that one Planar Touchstone site that reduces damage from any source by 1, but that isn't explicitly defined as Hardness, even though it works like it...


Hum, so we said above spirit hellbred Necropolitan as the race, so touch of fatigue is just flat out as it requires a fort save (also immune ti fatigue). Even ignoring that I am unsure if Black Lore of Moil can have its damage type changed since it isn't an energy type. Though might be wrong on that, maybe Maxi or Troacctid would know?

Also if you can somehow pull dragonblood subtype in there like Maat Mons suggests and take dragonscale husk ACF you would give cold res, add The Failed Shadow Gate magical location like Jowgen suggests for more cold res and a couple sources of fast healing...

Getting dragonblood would probably mean taking Dragontouched as a feat, since going Dragonborn pre-Necropolitan would do away with our Telepathy. Then Draconic Aura and Dragonscale husk are on the table, netting the resistances and a first source of fast healing.

Though on that topic, even with Mindsight the Fighter isn't guaranteed to completely counter Hide-based strats. After all, even if it pinpoints the square, it doesn't mean he automatically beats our hide with a spot or ignores whatever source of concealment we are using.

[daremetoidareyo]

Hum, so we said above spirit hellbred Necropolitan as the race, so touch of fatigue is just flat out as it requires a fort save (also immune ti fatigue). Even ignoring that I am unsure if Black Lore of Moil can have its damage type changed since it isn't an energy type. Though might be wrong on that, maybe Maxi or Troacctid would know?

Also if you can somehow pull dragonblood subtype in there like Maat Mons suggests and take dragonscale husk ACF you would give cold res, add The Failed Shadow Gate magical location like Jowgen suggests for more cold res and a couple sources of fast healing...

I thought you were warforged. Doesn't disrupt undead work on necropolitans? Just snowcast it. If there are any feats left over, violate spell should get in there.



I've been working on a bard version. Notably summon instrument (a summoning spell) and fine tuning. Especially in conjunction with the lute-bow... particularly if you take a super lenient reading of imbued summoning.

If imbued summoning is allowed to target a summoned instrument, could you treat the second level animate instrument spell as a metamagic cost for a weird effects, turning the lute bow into an animated object? And if it is an animated object, could it shoot its own arrows? Or, if you have darkspeech can you summon a bunch of imbued animated instruments and then hive mind them?

If you take arcane preparation, can you nest imbued summons inside each other? imbued summon instrument with imbued swift ready with animate instrument.

Imbued with shadow cache on a planar bard, just escape. hey, you lost, but you didn't die.

[ekarney]

imo the biggest issue with this 'problem' is that we don't really have anything too concrete.
namely this whole floating build issue that "well if the wizard does this, then the fighter is specifically built to avoid this, so that's moot and the wizards dies"

Can OP give us an actual build for the fighter? Since we're trying to build around an encounter that couldn't happen.

[Troacctid]

What would you consider a clothesline, then? Or a shoulder-check? Body slam? Headbutt? Knee-to-the-groin?

The entire monk's body can be used as a weapon. It would have to be, else none of those would be possible, and they very much are IRL. I doubt a monk (especially at high level) is less proficient in smacking people than real people, and unarmed strikes are any attacks made without a weapon (which would include the above, by default).
Elbow, bull rush, grapple check, natural weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/satyr.htm), knee.

Some creatures do legitimately have slam attacks that use their entire body (e.g. porpoise), but for monk unarmed strikes, that's not supported by RAW.

[Vizzerdrix]

You are overlooking the fact that this in no way works, in fact chain spell is worthless in this scenario:

Chain spell affects the primary target and then secondary targets and each can only be affected once. In this situation we only have one target so chain spell is worthless.

Wrong. Your target for Launch Bolts are the bolts themselves. Its right in the target line for the spell. You need to apply reach for launch bolt to be chainable, then twin effects a further CL number of bolts. The primary bolt is a valid target for twin, and does not violate any individual instance of chained.

[EldritchWeaver]

imo the biggest issue with this 'problem' is that we don't really have anything too concrete.
namely this whole floating build issue that "well if the wizard does this, then the fighter is specifically built to avoid this, so that's moot and the wizards dies"

Can OP give us an actual build for the fighter? Since we're trying to build around an encounter that couldn't happen.

Isn't there an example build which can deal with all proposed strategies?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Elbow, bull rush, grapple check, natural weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/satyr.htm), knee.Unarmed strike, unarmed strike during a bull rush, unarmed strike during a grapple check, unarmed strike (humanoids don't have horns, in case you haven't noticed, and yet we can still do this), unarmed strike. Since when are "elbow" and "knee" defined as anything but unarmed strikes, anyway?


Some creatures do legitimately have slam attacks that use their entire body (e.g. porpoise), but for monk unarmed strikes, that's not supported by RAW.What did Jowgen just get done saying, exactly?

We can do all of the above IRL. Are you saying we have natural attacks? Why aren't humans given a wide variety of martial body-only strikes as natural weapons, then? Would it not be because we're capable of training ourselves to strike unarmed? Wouldn't that be considered an unarmed strike? Any unarmed attack without a natural weapon is an unarmed strike, according to the rules for unarmed strikes as weapons and Improved Unarmed Strike, and monks gain that as a feat. Are you saying they're worse at attacking unarmed than someone who just takes the feat despite explicitly gaining that feat? Are monks worse than real life people with a tiny fraction of the training and experience than even a level 1 monk would have?

Isn't that more than a little ridiculous?

[liquidformat]

Wrong. Your target for Launch Bolts are the bolts themselves. Its right in the target line for the spell. You need to apply reach for launch bolt to be chainable, then twin effects a further CL number of bolts. The primary bolt is a valid target for twin, and does not violate any individual instance of chained.

Launch bolt isn't a valid choice for a reach spell as reach spell specifies the range of the spell must be 'touch' and the range of launch bolt is Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) so no still not buying what you are selling but nice try.

[Vizzerdrix]

Launch bolt isn't a valid choice for a reach spell as reach spell specifies the range of the spell must be 'touch' and the range of launch bolt is Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) so no still not buying what you are selling but nice try.

Launch Bolt. Spell Compendium. Page 130. Listed Range: Touch.

[liquidformat]

Launch Bolt. Spell Compendium. Page 130. Listed Range: Touch.

Ah so it has I have been using the Magic of Faerûn version all this time...

[Vizzerdrix]

Ah so it has I have been using the Magic of Faerûn version all this time...

Shhhh. Don't speak. Let me take you up in my muscly wings and show you the glory that is the mountain peak of launch bolt. Only then will I show you how to crush it in your mighty fist like an over ripe peach!

[Troacctid]

Unarmed strike, unarmed strike during a bull rush, unarmed strike during a grapple check, unarmed strike (humanoids don't have horns, in case you haven't noticed, and yet we can still do this), unarmed strike. Since when are "elbow" and "knee" defined as anything but unarmed strikes, anyway?
By RAW, unarmed strikes can be with fists, feet, knees, and elbows. A body slam is when you lift an opponent's body into the air and slam them to the ground, which would require you to grapple them first, hence, grapple check. You could rule that it makes sense for headbutts to be a logical form of unarmed strike, but by RAW it's not a listed option for monks.


Are you saying they're worse at attacking unarmed than someone who just takes the feat despite explicitly gaining that feat? Are monks worse than real life people with a tiny fraction of the training and experience than even a level 1 monk would have?

Isn't that more than a little ridiculous?
Hey, look, you're the one here arguing that licking someone should be as effective as punching them, and that as a result, monks should be able to fly by enchanting their bodies as throwing weapons and throwing themselves. I don't think you get to talk about ridiculous.

[Vizzerdrix]

By RAW, unarmed strikes can be with fists, feet, knees, and elbows. A body slam is when you lift an opponent's body into the air and slam them to the ground, which would require you to grapple them first, hence, grapple check. You could rule that it makes sense for headbutts to be a logical form of unarmed strike, but by RAW it's not a listed option for monks.


Hey, look, you're the one here arguing that licking someone should be as effective as punching them, and that as a result, monks should be able to fly by enchanting their bodies as throwing weapons and throwing themselves. I don't think you get to talk about ridiculous.

Hmm... this gives me an idea. A monk that had its hands enchanted to be intelligent items. Multiclass with bard and have the ultimate traveling sock puppet show!

[Endarire]

Can we use major creation to make antimatter or highly radioactive particles, attach that to some bolts, then use launch bolt?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Can we use major creation to make antimatter or highly radioactive particles, attach that to some bolts, then use launch bolt?Launch Bolt, Usaine at them?

[Jowgen]

Can we use major creation to make antimatter or highly radioactive particles, attach that to some bolts, then use launch bolt?

I didn't want to bring this up, but... there is always Voidstone. We can make bolts out of it (craft is a class skill for us after all) and use launch bolt, or use launch item.

Issue is how we can transport the stuff when all magic (-items) are limited to cantrips.

[Troacctid]

Can we use major creation to make antimatter or highly radioactive particles, attach that to some bolts, then use launch bolt?
Last I checked major creation isn't a cantrip.

[Endarire]

Major creation isn't a cantrip, but neither is, for example, a +1 Holy Human Bane bolt (or something otherwise unobtainable via cantrips) that I thought we were using.

[liquidformat]

Major creation isn't a cantrip, but neither is, for example, a +1 Holy Human Bane bolt (or something otherwise unobtainable via cantrips) that I thought we were using.

When did anyone say we were using a +1 Holy Human Bane bolt? I know someone mentioned having +1 since it doesn't require a specific spell to make but Both Holy and bane require spells that are beyond cantrips which makes them a no go. Also we have been talking about undead, dragon born, and warforged, none of which would human bane be useful against...

[Jowgen]

This is probably a good time to check, what magic items are there that only have cantrips as prereqs and are therefore valid for this?

[daremetoidareyo]

I think stacking a buttload of energy admixtures, the 14th level planar sub level to extend and maximize, and deflect arrows gives you a fighting chance of pulling this off

[SirNibbles]

This is probably a good time to check, what magic items are there that only have cantrips as prereqs and are therefore valid for this?

There are quite a few with no prereqs at all which could be useful, such as a Lens of Ray Widening (to target a ridiculous number of bolts for Launch Bolt).

Offhand, I know there is one crystal that requires Ray of Frost, but I'd have to get home and check books for any others.

___

Regarding what someone above said about nailing down concrete builds to compete against, let's try to come up with three standard martials that would be limited by the magic rules, but not optimised for fighting a Wizard 1v1.

Dungeoncrasher Fighter, Streetfighter Barbarian, and Archery Scout should still be decent Martial builds in this ruleset, though I'm not sure exactly how they'd be built.

[Maat Mons]

I'll take a stab at a couple of builds for the mundane side.



Build 1: Pouncing Barbarian

Necropolitan Hellbred Barbarian 20

ACFs, Sub Levels, and Variants
Fangshields Sub Level 3
Ferocity ACF
Spiritual Totem (Lion) ACF
Streetfighter ACF

Ability Scores
Str: 16 (base) +6 (ferocity) = 22
Dex: 17 (base) +5 (level) +6 (ferocity) = 28 (ferocity can be activated before initiative)
Con: -
Int: 8
Wis 15
Cha 9 (base) +2 (race) = 11

Feats
Race: Devil's Favor
1: Dragontouched
Flaw: Dragon Wings
Flaw: Power Attack
3: Improved Bull Rush
6: Shock Trooper
9: Leap Attack
12: Improved Dragon Wings
15: Devil's Sight
18: Mindsight

Highlights
Blindsight 30 ft. (swift action 2/day, lasts 5 rounds)
Fly Speed 30 ft. (90 ft. when charging; can move 4x speed on charge)
Mindsight 100 ft.
Ubercharging
Undead Immunities



Build 2: Energy-Resistant Barbarian

Necropolitan Hellbred Barbarian 20

ACFs, Sub Levels, and Variants
Dragonscale Husk
Implacable (gain heavy armor proficiency)
Fangshields Sub Level 3
Streetfighter ACF

Ability Scores
Str: 17 (base) +5 (level) = 22
Dex: 16 (base) +6 (implacable rage) = 22
Con: -
Int: 8
Wis 15
Cha 9 (base) +2 (race) = 11

Feats
Race: Devil's Favor
1: Dragontouched
Flaw: Dragon Wings
Flaw: Power Attack
3: Improved Bull Rush
6: Shock Trooper
9: Leap Attack
12: Improved Dragon Wings
15: Devil's Sight
18: Mindsight

Highlights
Blindsight 30 ft. (swift action 2/day, lasts 5 rounds)
Fly Speed 30 ft. (90 ft. when charging; can move 4x speed on charge)
Mindsight 100 ft.
Resistance 20 to Acid, Cold, Electricity, and Fire
Ubercharging (sans pounce)
Undead Immunities

[SirNibbles]

I'll take a stab at a couple of builds for the mundane side.



Build 1: Pouncing Barbarian

Necropolitan Hellbred Barbarian 20

*snip*

Build 2: Energy-Resistant Barbarian

Necropolitan Hellbred Barbarian 20



How are you getting cursed nails (for necropolitan) without Bestow Curse?

[Maat Mons]

Not all of the cursed items described in Dungeon Master's Guide have Bestow Curse as a prerequisite. So I don't see any reason to assume that Bestow Curse would be a prerequisite for crafting Cursed Nails.

Or were you suggesting that Cursed Nails are just regular nails that someone has cast Bestow Curse on? That can't be true however, because nails aren't a creature, so they're not a valid target for the spell.