Days of the Week

[RatElemental]

We know from comic 1089 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html) that the meaning of the names of the days of the week are known in comic (Wednesday is, in short, a corruption of "The day of Woden" aka Odin.)

So that got me thinking, what might the other northern gods think of Tyr (tuesday), Odin, Thor (thursday), and Frigg (friday) having days named after them? Did the gods use Saturday as a sneaky way to honor the fallen eastern pantheon? The mortals aren't supposed to know Zeus even existed, much less know an alternate name of his, so it's unlikely that they named Saturday.

[Aeson]

Did the gods use Saturday as a sneaky way to honor the fallen eastern pantheon? The mortals aren't supposed to know Zeus even existed, much less know an alternate name of his, so it's unlikely that they named Saturday.
{scrubbed}

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Thing is people in the West and South continents still call them by the same names, in common. Don't read deep into it- it's just saying the days of the week simply as possible.

[Dion]

And why do they have Sunday? The star that shines on their world during the day isn’t the Sun!

[Aeson]

Thing is people in the West and South continents still call them by the same names, in common. Don't read deep into it- it's just saying the days of the week simply as possible.
It could also be argued that it's simply translation convention at play - maybe the Common and racial-language names for the weekdays are something else entirely, but they're given as the familiar English-language weekdays because the English-literate audience will understand where Monday and Wednesday are relative to one another in the week better than they'd understand where Ffapibona and Aibnoeigh are - especially if the calendar system was either never explained or was only explained once in some comic that everyone always forgets.


And why do they have Sunday? The star that shines on their world during the day isn’t the Sun!
The Northern Pantheon does, however, have a sun god named Sunna.

[Dion]

Why does OotS-world have gold? Doesn’t gold only forms in supernovas? Their universe isn't more than a few thousand years old! They haven’t had supernovas.

[Dion]

The Northern Pantheon does, however, have a sun god named Sunna.

I suppose you feel good about yourself, just because you’re smart and know smart things.

Well good. You should feel good about that.

[HorizonWalker]

Durkon, a devout worshipper of Thor, received his childhood religious education at "Thursday School."

[RatElemental]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}.

Ah nuts. Should've looked that one up before I posted this.

[The Pilgrim]

Whoever taught them to speak in english also taught them the days of the week. And the names of the months too.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Why does OotS-world have gold? Doesn’t gold only forms in supernovas? Their universe isn't more than a few thousand years old! They haven’t had supernovas.

They don't make a whole universe. They make a world and give it a night sky. {scrubbed} They are, in themselves as gods who created the world, supernovas.

EDIT: Not to mention the setting already has the plane of earth which is laden with gemstones and precious minerals.

[Fyraltari]

And why do they have Sunday? The star that shines on their world during the day isn’t the Sun!
What? Yes, it is.

Why does OotS-world have gold? Doesn’t gold only forms in supernovas? Their universe isn't more than a few thousand years old! They haven’t had supernovas.
They have elemantal planes instead. It works out.

[Jannoire]

And why do they have Sunday? The star that shines on their world during the day isn’t the Sun!

Belkar explicitly called it the sun in his hangover after the new year's incident

[hroþila]

They don't make a whole universe. They make a world and give it a night sky. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote} They are, in themselves as gods who created the world, supernovas.
No, they created a whole solar system at the very least, with actual planets and a sun, plus stars, not simply a heavenly dome or whatever.

[Reboot]

No, they created a whole solar system at the very least, with actual planets and a sun, plus stars, not simply a heavenly dome or whatever.

[Citation needed]

[hroþila]

[Citation needed]
HtPGHS, last panel.

[brian 333]

{scrubbed}

[Fyraltari]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

No, that's not right. (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Saturday)
Of note, that and Monday are the only correspondants between Germanic and Romance wekk names. {scrubbed}

[Honest Tiefling]

Ah nuts. Should've looked that one up before I posted this.

It's confusing. I have used mnemonics based on Sailor Moon to remember the days/symbols more often than I should have.

{scrubbed} I don't think the Germanic people even HAD the concept of a week before they took it from the Romans.

I'm not a historian, but I believe most of English can be explained with two people bumping into each other and exclaiming: "You got your Germanic Roots all over my Romance Language!" "You got your Romance loanwords all over my Germanic Language!"

[KorvinStarmast]

It's confusing. I have used mnemonics based on Sailor Moon to remember the days/symbols more often than I should have.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote} I don't think the Germanic people even HAD the concept of a week before they took it from the Romans.

I'm not a historian, but I believe most of English can be explained with two people bumping into each other and exclaiming: "You got your Germanic Roots all over my Romance Language!" "You got your Romance loanwords all over my Germanic Language!" And throw in a few Greek roots, to sweeten the soup.


The term pyromania comes from the Greek word πῦρ (pyr, fire).

[zimmerwald1915]

{scrubbed}

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Closed for review.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: I'm re-opening this thread, but please keep all references relevant to the comic. This is a reminder that real-world religion is an Inappropriate Topic on these forums.

[brian 333]

No, that's not right. (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Saturday)
Of note, that and Monday are the only correspondants between Germanic and Romance wekk names. {scrubbed}

As I said, the source you cited failed to double-check.

Romans didn't use weeks. They named three days of the month then said x days until Ides, or whichever named day was next.

The Greek names of the seven 'planets' were used by refugees returning from Babylon. (They copied from the Babylonian astronomers.) But these refugees brought the idea of a seven-day week, and of naming the days after the planets, to Northern Europe some three centuries before the adoption of the week by Romans.

Which means the planet-name Kronus should have been used instead of Saturn. Nobody says Kronoday. Thus, like all the other weekdays, Saturday was given a northern transliteration from the Greek transliteration of the Babylonian names.

[RatElemental]

This isn't how I pictured this thread going at all. I think our time would be better spent (and less likely to get the thread locked again) arguing over whether the in comic gods named the days of the week or the in comic mortals did.

I stand by my position that the gods did it, at least in common which I assume all the characters are speaking, unless they actually are supposed to be speaking english. I'll have to comb through the archives again to see if there's evidence for that one way or the other...

[ti'esar]

In the Dragon magazine comics, at least, Vaarsuvius responds to Durkon snarking about them trying to gain the 'Uptight English Teacher' prestige class (or something like that) with "And what is this 'English' of which you speak?"

[Peelee]

In the Dragon magazine comics, at least, Vaarsuvius responds to Durkon snarking about them trying to gain the 'Uptight English Teacher' prestige class (or something like that) with "And what is this 'English' of which you speak?"

A language that totally allows ending sentences in prepositions. What now, Vaarsuvius? :smallamused:

[ti'esar]

A language that totally allows ending sentences in prepositions. What now, Vaarsuvius? :smallamused:

Dude, you just unlocked the thread; you really want to start a flame war?

[Dion]

Belkar explicitly called it the sun in his hangover after the new year's incident

That means the OotS world’s day star has the same name as our day star! I wonder if that’s just a coincidence, or if there’s a deeper meaning...

Like, for example:

Long ago, both Earth and OotS-World orbited the star call The Sun. But then one day, OOTS-World was destroyed. The end..

[Dion]

A language that totally allows ending sentences in prepositions. What now, Vaarsuvius? :smallamused:

That’s the type of errant pedantry up with with which Vaarsuvius will happily put.

[Jannoire]

That means the OotS world’s day star has the same name as our day star! I wonder if that’s just a coincidence, or if there’s a deeper meaning...

Like, for example:

Long ago, both Earth and OotS-World orbited the star call The Sun. But then one day, OOTS-World was destroyed. The end..

Or it's just because it's simpler.
Everybody knows what the sun is. There's no need to establish a new world and tell everybody "yeah, there's no sun in OOTS world. They have a feukveoc, which is exactly like the sun in our world, but they call it that way..."

[Peelee]

That’s the type of errant pedantry up with with which Vaarsuvius will happily put.

Reminds me of that scene in Canadian Bacon. Quality movie, that.

[Dion]

Or it's just because it's simpler...

Sure, but in a thread where we’re questioning the existence of the word SATURDAY, we might as well question other words as well...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We know from comic 1089 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html) that the meaning of the names of the days of the week are known in comic (Wednesday is, in short, a corruption of "The day of Woden" aka Odin.)

So that got me thinking, what might the other northern gods think of Tyr (tuesday), Odin, Thor (thursday), and Frigg (friday) having days named after them? Did the gods use Saturday as a sneaky way to honor the fallen eastern pantheon? The mortals aren't supposed to know Zeus even existed, much less know an alternate name of his, so it's unlikely that they named Saturday.

If "Woden's day" can become Wednesday, "Surtur's Day" can become Saturday.

Grey Wolf

[The Pilgrim]

If "Woden's day" can become Wednesday, "Surtur's Day" can become Saturday.

Grey Wolf

Except that all philological evidence shows that it didn't. Saturday comes straight from latin's Saturni Dies. The oldest records are already written with the root "Satur".

[Dion]

Except that all philological evidence shows that it didn't. Saturday comes straight from latin's Saturni Dies. The oldest records are already written with the root "Satur".

I’m not familiar with the comic you’re referencing. By “oldest records”, do you mean Start of Darkness?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Except that all philological evidence shows that it didn't. Saturday comes straight from latin's Saturni Dies. The oldest records are already written with the root "Satur".

I agree with Dion. I do wonder what evidence you have for these "philological evidence" that are within the bounds of the forum rules, and explicitly within the bounds of the mod voice:

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: I'm re-opening this thread, but please keep all references relevant to the comic. This is a reminder that real-world religion is an Inappropriate Topic on these forums.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

It is attested as sæterndæg in Old English (note the <n>), but I'm unclear to what extent we're being serious or talking about in-universe philology only.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It is attested as sæterndæg in Old English (note the <n>), but I'm unclear to what extent we're being serious or talking about in-universe philology only.

Again: OotS isn't real life. If the question is "why is a day of the week in OotS called saturday, when there isn't and has never been a god named Saturn", then my answer is "because it is not named after a non-existing god, but after an existing one called Surtur".

Grey Wolf

[HorizonWalker]

This may raise the question "then why does Surtur get a day, when most of the others don't? He's just a minor demigod!" and the answer is "Iunno, they drew straws or something."

[hroþila]

Again: OotS isn't real life. If the question is "why is a day of the week in OotS called saturday, when there isn't and has never been a god named Saturn", then my answer is "because it is not named after a non-existing god, but after an existing one called Surtur".

Grey Wolf
Hence what I said about not being sure everybody was on the same page as to what the discussion is about. Anyway, I think positing it comes from "Surtur" just adds an unnecessary complication. It's probably just a random name in-universe. These things can't be made sense of once you strip them of their etymology and phonological history, which by necessity are specific to our world.

In fact, I'm going to posit there's no link between "Wednesday" and "Odin" in the OotS world, and Wednesday is Odin's day entirely by coincidence.

[Keltest]

This may raise the question "then why does Surtur get a day, when most of the others don't? He's just a minor demigod!" and the answer is "Iunno, they drew straws or something."

Because they wanted to commemorate the day that Thor beat up Surtur for the first time this world, but Thorsday had already happened.

[Dion]

It is attested as sæterndæg in Old English (note the <n>), but I'm unclear to what extent we're being serious or talking about in-universe philology only.

We’re having a very important serious discussion about why Saturday is called Saturday in OotS-verse.

We might have a discussion about why it’s called Saturday in our universe, but probably not a serious one, and probably not on this forum.

[KorvinStarmast]

Wednesday is Odin's day entirely by coincidence. My bet is that Odin's day is Wednesday because Happy Hour on Wednesdays is a long standing tradition, and he wanted to get credit for all of the happiness during happy hour.

(Though I will say that in the last few decades, the "happy hour" tradition in general has been squashed by the zealotry that passes for "public interest" locally ...)

[137beth]

And why do they have Sunday? The star that shines on their world during the day isn’t the Sun!

Sigdi calls it the sun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html).

[Squire Doodad]

Sigdi calls it the sun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html).

Wasn't Sunna one of the gods at the Godsmoot? That bit of etymology should be fine in-universe I think.

[D.One]

Fun fact:

In portuguese, the days of the week (from monday to friday) are named "segunda-feira", "terça-feira", "quarta-feira", "quinta-feira" and "sexta-feira", meaning something like "second day", "third day", etc until the "sixth day".

Sunday is Domingo, as in spanish, meaning "Day of the Lord", and Saturday is Sábado, which is related to hebraic Shabbat.

[137beth]

Wasn't Sunna one of the gods at the Godsmoot? That bit of etymology should be fine in-universe I think.

Yes, Sunna voted yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yes, Sunna voted yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html)

Best reason, too.

Grey Wolf

[D.One]

Best reason, too.

Grey Wolf

Sunna, god of the Sun and thrower of Nukes...

[Fish]

In portuguese, the days of the week (from monday to friday) are named "segunda-feira", "terça-feira", "quarta-feira", "quinta-feira" and "sexta-feira", meaning something like "second day", "third day", etc until the "sixth day".
Same in Mandarin: 星期一, 星期二, 星期三, etc.

There’s no use overthinking this. OOTS is a self-aware world based on D&D, either implicitly or explicitly, based on the introduction of Dale Arneson, Gary Gygax, version changes, references to specific rules, etc. In turn, D&D follows in the footsteps of Tolkien. Tolkien wrote in “On Fairy Stories” that the Secondary World is satisfying inasmuch as it is familiar to the Primary World where the reader lives. Bilbo Baggins has a great many familiar things in his tale that the reader will recognize, despite there being no in-world economic or logical reasons for them to exist (a clock on the mantelpiece that operates on a recognizable Earth timekeeping system, names of months and weekdays, a liquid economy, pocket handkerchiefs, good silverware for company, bound books, etc). Bilbo’s home is that of a 19th-century English gentleman in order to give a jumping-off point for like-minded readers.

In other words, it’s possible to build a world from first principles where everything is internally consistent and the characters really do speak Common and the biology is inhuman and the weapons are alien and the timekeeping is different.* It’s just not advisable to change too much.

*Weeks are 60 days long and the days are called Mugday, Thugday, Bugday, and Glugday, and they repeat, so there are 15 Glugdays per week.

[Fyraltari]

It should be noted that because Tolkien was Tolkien, the Appendixes of LotR expalins that there is a good deal of translation convention going on regarding the names of the months, days and people in Middle-Earth.

[Squire Doodad]

It should be noted that because Tolkien was Tolkien, the Appendixes of LotR expalins that there is a good deal of translation convention going on regarding the names of the months, days and people in Middle-Earth.

Somewhere along the way, someone translated Bilbo into a fine gentleman from the 1800s too :smallbiggrin:

[Fish]

It should be noted that because Tolkien was Tolkien, the Appendixes of LotR expalins that there is a good deal of translation convention going on regarding the names of the months, days and people in Middle-Earth.
And Arthur Conan Doyle’s writing says that “Dr Watson” wrote the Sherlock Holmes stories. It’s a convenient fiction. There was no translation. It was a choice by Tolkien to present a recognizable world and then justify that choice with more story.

[Fyraltari]

And Arthur Conan Doyle’s writing says that “Dr Watson” wrote the Sherlock Holmes stories. It’s a convenient fiction. There was no translation. It was a choice by Tolkien to present a recognizable world and then justify that choice with more story.
Yes I know, I didn't challenge that.

(Edited for uncalled for aggressivity.)

[hroþila]

It always bugged me how many small details in Tolkien's languages only worked as English calques. They should have taken his conlanging license. :smallyuk:

I just can't get mad at the Baranduin/Branda-nîn/Bralda-hîm/Brandywine/[insert language of translation] joke though.

[Fyraltari]

It always bugged me how many small details in Tolkien's languages only worked as English calques. They should have taken his conlanging license. :smallyuk:

Also, "hey, let's state in the Appendixes that the hobbit version of Westron lost its T-V distinction but unlike english it lost the formal form, not the informal AND that no other form of Westron had lost it at the time meaning that to everybody who is not a hobbit sound weirdly bold and disrepectful by addressing complete strangers (raoyaly even) as if they were friends. And then, let's absolutely NOT reflect that in the dialog I wrote".
What a great idea...

I don't think you can take the conlang license of the guy who founded the conlang club.

[Peelee]

They should have taken his conlanging license. :smallyuk:


I don't think you can take the conlang license of the guy who founded the conlang club.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/57e5b1257bbfe74f1c6c7c49a067eb51/tenor.gif

[hroþila]

Oh, the thing with the lack of T-V distinction in the hobbit dialect was a stroke of genius.

Tolkien may cry treason all he wants, Hildegard of Bingen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_Ignota) has the last word on his membership status.

[Fyraltari]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/57e5b1257bbfe74f1c6c7c49a067eb51/tenor.gif
https://media3.giphy.com/media/oikZuO15F6mI/100.webp?cid=790b7611e5d981db025985b93e99910547350 871720a7b05&rid=100.webp

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It always bugged me how many small details in Tolkien's languages only worked as English calques. They should have taken his conlanging license. :smallyuk:

I just can't get mad at the Baranduin/Branda-nîn/Bralda-hîm/Brandywine/[insert language of translation] joke though.

I judge conlangs on a single point: do they employ non-base 10 counting systems.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4bmZ1gRqCc

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Oh, the thing with the lack of T-V distinction in the hobbit dialect was a stroke of genius.
It would have been if he had let any way for the translations to a T-V distinguishing language to use that.


Tolkien may cry treason all he wants, Hildegard of Bingen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_Ignota) has the last word on his membership status.
The guy who founds the theater club is not the guy who invented theater but the one who makes it popular 'round these parts. Same with conlang.

But hey, I learned a thing today! :smallsmile:

EDIT:

I judge conlangs on a single point: do they employ non-base 10 counting systems.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4bmZ1gRqCc

Grey Wolf
I seem to remember elves having a base-12 system, but I couldn't give you a quote, right now.

[Emanick]

It would have been if he had let any way for the translations to a T-V distinguishing language to use that.


The guy who founds the theater club is not the guy who invented theater but the one who makes it popular 'round these parts. Same with conlang.

But hey, I learned a thing today! :smallsmile:

EDIT:

I seem to remember elves having a base-12 system, but I couldn't give you a quote, right now.

They apparently used a base-12 system because when the Elves first awoke, there were 144 of them, arranged in 12 groups of 12. Why this led to the development of a base-12 system I don't know, but one of Tolkien's letters makes the point that such a system makes arithmetic much easier, which I certainly don't dispute.


It always bugged me how many small details in Tolkien's languages only worked as English calques. They should have taken his conlanging license. :smallyuk:

I just can't get mad at the Baranduin/Branda-nîn/Bralda-hîm/Brandywine/[insert language of translation] joke though.

Better than C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy, which claims in the first volume's appendix that the name of the protagonist (who was modeled after Tolkien) is a pseudonym invented to protect his anonymity, then uses its literal meaning in English as a crucial plot element in the next book. It's a great series - one of my favorites - but Tolkien must have facepalmed when Lewis read that section to him.

[Fyraltari]

Better than C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy, which claims in the first volume's appendix that the name of the protagonist (who was modeled after Tolkien) is a pseudonym invented to protect his anonymity, then uses its literal meaning in English as a crucial plot element in the next book. It's a great series - one of my favorites - but Tolkien must have facepalmed when Lewis read that section to him.

I don't know, Tolkien has a fondness to translate names based on meaning rather than phonetical approximation (ex Imladriss becoming Rivendell rather than, say, Imadres). Is it possible that the protagonist's name has that same meaning in his native tongue?

[Emanick]

I don't know, Tolkien has a fondness to translate names based on meaning rather than phonetical approximation (ex Imladriss becoming Rivendell rather than, say, Imadres). Is it possible that the protagonist's name has that same meaning in his native tongue?

I think it's just a simple mistake - his name was changed, not translated, unfortunately. It's made pretty clear that he's an Englishman, and after it's stated in the first book that Ransom is not the protagonist's real name, you then get this passage in the second book (which I'm going to quote at length mostly because it's beautiful, not because it's strictly necessary):


“It is not for nothing that you are named Ransom,” said the Voice.

And he knew that this was no fancy of his own. He knew it for a very curious reason—because he had known for many years that his surname was derived not from ransom but from Randolf’s son. It would never have occurred to him thus to associate the two words. To connect the name Ransom with the act of ransoming would have been for him a mere pun. But even his voluble self did not now dare to suggest that the Voice was making a play upon words. All in a moment of time he perceived that what was, to human philologists, a mere accidental resemblance of two sounds, was in truth no accident. The whole distinction between things accidental and things designed, like the distinction between fact and myth, was purely terrestrial. The pattern is so large that within the little frame of earthly experience there appear pieces of it between which we can see no connection, and other pieces between which we can. Hence we rightly, for our use, distinguish the accidental from the essential. But step outside that frame and the distinction drops down into the void, fluttering useless wings. He had been forced out of the frame, caught up into the larger pattern. He knew now why the old philosophers had said that there is no such thing as chance or fortune beyond the Moon. Before his Mother had borne him, before his ancestors had been called Ransoms, before ransom had been the name for a payment that delivers, before the world was made, all these things had so stood together in eternity that the very significance of the pattern at this point lay in their coming together in just this fashion. And he bowed his head and groaned and repined against his fate—to be still a man and yet to be forced up into the metaphysical world, to enact what philosophy only thinks.

[Peelee]

https://media3.giphy.com/media/oikZuO15F6mI/100.webp?cid=790b7611e5d981db025985b93e99910547350 871720a7b05&rid=100.webp

https://media1.tenor.com/images/f153f8a2af1a3096fc6b9d3ec9806707/tenor.gif

[Fyraltari]

I think it's just a simple mistake - his name was changed, not translated, unfortunately. It's made pretty clear that he's an Englishman, and after it's stated in the first book that Ransom is not the protagonist's real name, you then get this passage in the second book (which I'm going to quote at length mostly because it's beautiful, not because it's strictly necessary):
Ah. Because of the title I had assumed the protagonist to be an extra-terrestrial.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/f153f8a2af1a3096fc6b9d3ec9806707/tenor.gif

https://media0.giphy.com/media/Rv8a2yUwTNrry/giphy.webp?cid=790b761135f7c89707a5ca969f90bbf1418 7553c2d3416cc&rid=giphy.webp]

[RatElemental]

I judge conlangs on a single point: do they employ non-base 10 counting systems.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4bmZ1gRqCc

Grey Wolf

There was a (fallen) fictional society in a game called Looming that counted in base two and revered scientific subjects as gods unto themselves.

[Peelee]

I judge conlangs on a single point: do they employ non-base 10 counting systems.

Grey Wolf

They all use base 10 as far as they're concerned. :smallwink:

Besides, if but a non-base-10 system better if the adherers had more or fewer than ten digits on their appendages.

[Schroeswald]

They all use base 10 as far as they're concerned. :smallwink:

Besides, if but a non-base-10 system better if the adherers had more or fewer than ten digits on their appendages.

Then Oots should be using base 6.

[Squire Doodad]

Then Oots should be using base 6.

Base 6 easily evolves into Base 12, thus meaning that the OotS probably has a much more convenient educational system. Skill points notwithstanding.

[Fyraltari]

They all use base 10 as far as they're concerned. :smallwink:
This is not how this work.


Besides, if but a non-base-10 system better if the adherers had more or fewer than ten digits on their appendages.
Tell that to the various cultures throughout history who used other bases than ten.

(By the way, you can count to twelve on your fingers by using your thumbs to count your phalanges, that's about as instinctive as counting your fingers).

[Peelee]

This is not how this work.

Why not? 1,10, bam! Base 10. Not their fault you count in base 1010.

[Fyraltari]

Why not? 1,10, bam! Base 10. Not their fault you count in base 1010.

He said, in the year MMXIX.

[Peelee]

He said, in the year MMXIX.

I'm offended that English is German based but muddy it with Latin and Greek yet we use a nice, simple base 10, while it was the Romans who had a base 10 number system and muddied it with base 2 and base 5. Why can't our number system be as bad as our language?

[Schroeswald]

I'm offended that English is German based but muddy it with Latin and Greek yet we use a nice, simple base 10, while it was the Romans who had a base 10 number system and muddied it with base 2 and base 5. Why can't our number system be as bad as our language?

We must develop British numerals to fix this controvosy!

[Squire Doodad]

We must develop British numerals to fix this controvosy!

This is where we start talking about whether 199X means somewhere between 1990 and 1999 or if it means 2000, right?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There was a (fallen) fictional society in a game called Looming that counted in base two and revered scientific subjects as gods unto themselves.

Trolls in discworld count in base 4: one, two, three, many, many one, many two, many three, lots. It already puts them ahead of most serious sci-fi and fantasy societies, as far as I am concerned.

Grey Wolf

[Reboot]

This is where we start talking about whether 199X means somewhere between 1990 and 1999 or if it means 2000, right?
Nah, x stands for an unknown digit, which means those first three digits are known to be 1, 9 and 9 in that order.

Now, if you're talking about the end of the 20th century, that should absolutely be the 31st of December 2000, not 1999...

[Squire Doodad]

Nah, x stands for an unknown digit, which means those first three digits are known to be 1, 9 and 9 in that order.

Now, if you're talking about the end of the 20th century, that should absolutely be the 31st of December 2000, not 1999...

I'm well aware of how variables work, thank you :smallbiggrin:

Still though I once ran into a group of people arguing about the canonical timing of two events, and one of them argued that 199X meant 2000 because it was a roman numeral...fun times!

[Fyraltari]

I'm offended that English is German based but muddy it with Latin and Greek yet we use a nice, simple base 10, while it was the Romans who had a base 10 number system and muddied it with base 2 and base 5. Why can't our number system be as bad as our language?
No, no, no the romans did use base 10, as you can see here (http://villemin.gerard.free.fr/Wwwgvmm/Numerati/Latin.htm), original names from 1 to nine (zero wasn't invented yet), original names for all tens (based on the first names) and combination of those lists for individual numbers, same goes for hundreds and thousands. What they didn't have was positionnal value which is just a way to write the number, not how to construct it.

Trolls in discworld count in base 4: one, two, three, many, many one, many two, many three, lots. It already puts them ahead of most serious sci-fi and fantasy societies, as far as I am concerned.

And Detritus the troll counts in base two. The hidden joke baing that he has a sillicon-based brain, just like a computer.

[Peelee]

No, no, no the romans did use base 10, as you can see here (http://villemin.gerard.free.fr/Wwwgvmm/Numerati/Latin.htm)

Blocked in the ol' US, I'm afraid.

[Emanick]

Blocked in the ol' US, I'm afraid.

I am allegedly in the United of States, and it works fine for me. Maybe you’ve got a browser extension that blocks it somehow?

[Peelee]

I am allegedly in the United of States, and it works fine for me. Maybe you’ve got a browser extension that blocks it somehow?

More likely it doesn't like my phone.

[hroþila]

Why have we moved from conlangs to arithmetics, I don't approve of this.

[Fyraltari]

Why have we moved from conlangs to arithmetics, I don't approve of this.

Ooh, I was expecting an explanation of the runic numeral system...

Anyway, we haven’t, we are only discussing how numbers are named and written which are purely linguistics concerns. If we were talking about which base is best for what use, then we’d be moving into arithmetics.

[CriticalFailure]

Is there such thing as a mathematical conlang or is that just making a new notation?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is there such thing as a mathematical conlang or is that just making a new notation?

There isn't. But every conlang should address that numbers are a thing that languages have to address, and not automatically assume every language employs base 10. Admittedly, conlangs tend to be created by people who probably had less-than-average love for math, but still, as per the video above, they should at least be aware that other cultures found other ways of counting.

Grey Wolf

[Fish]

There isn't. But every conlang should address that numbers are a thing that languages have to address...
Not all (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirahã_language) languages. Many, yes of course, but oddities exist.

[hroþila]

Ooh, I was expecting an explanation of the runic numeral system...

Anyway, we haven’t, we are only discussing how numbers are named and written which are purely linguistics concerns. If we were talking about which base is best for what use, then we’d be moving into arithmetics.
Unfortunately, it seems I can't learn runes no matter how many times I try. All I can say about runes is that they're super hard to read because someone decided to make 13th-century Icelandic the written standard for Old Norse (which is 200-400 years older) and I think this is wack.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not all (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirahã_language) languages. Many, yes of course, but oddities exist.

... It feels like this exemplifies my point even further? My complaint is that way too many conlangs assume base 10, when the reality is that base 10 is nowhere near universal.

Grey Wolf

[Fish]

If your point was that numbers were a thing that all languages must take into account, which is the part I quoted, then no. Not all languages have or need numbers. However, those that do not are rare and unusual.

If your point is that bases other than 10 are possible, then yes, (http://mentalfloss.com/article/31879/12-mind-blowing-number-systems-other-languages) it certainly is possible. Plenty of languages use special words for numbers beyond ten (eg, eleven, twelve) and transition to a more positional ten-based system, despite having base 10 mathematics. Other bases persist (12 inches to the foot, 14 pounds to the stone) in special cases.

However, note how many of the outliers on this list are in Papua New Guinea, an area with hundreds if not thousands of fragmented and mutually unintelligible languages. It may well be that exposure to a common system of mathematics, rather than what is linguistically or biologically probable, is the key. It seems that a lot of languages have vestigial remnants of other bases which were mostly wallpapered over when they encountered base-10 mathematics. It makes for an interesting window into the history of one’s conlang.

[hroþila]

I'm not sure to what extent "eleven" and "twelve" are examples of that, though, as etymologically they mean "one left over" and "two left over". Well, the etymology of the second element is not completely clear, but at any rate they're based on "one" and "two" respectively and thus they're clearly built around base-10.

[georgie_leech]

... It feels like this exemplifies my point even further? My complaint is that way too many conlangs assume base 10, when the reality is that base 10 is nowhere near universal.

Grey Wolf

It is amusing to note though that regardless of which base it is, we users of Arabic numerals and the Latin alphabet would (using that base) write it as 10. What 2 in binary? 10. 16 in hexadecimal? 10. 459 in base 459? 10. :smallamused:

[HeraldOfExius]

It is amusing to note though that regardless of which base it is, we users of Arabic numerals and the Latin alphabet would (using that base) write it as 10. What 2 in binary? 10. 16 in hexadecimal? 10. 459 in base 459? 10. :smallamused:

Perhaps I'm just a generic Latin alphabet and Arabic numerals kind of person, but how else would we write things in other bases? 10 in base n is just 1*n1+0*n0. We don't write it as 10 because we use base 10, but because writing n in base n (where n is a positive integer greater than 1) is a 1 followed by a 0. This is a separate cultural property of language and has more to do with the fact that 0 is one of our digits.

[georgie_leech]

Perhaps I'm just a generic Latin alphabet and Arabic numerals kind of person, but how else would we write things in other bases? 10 in base n is just 1*n1+0*n0. We don't write it as 10 because we use base 10, but because writing n in base n (where n is a positive integer greater than 1) is a 1 followed by a 0. This is a separate cultural property of language and has more to do with the fact that 0 is one of our digits.

Right, so anyone using our system of writing can truthfully say they use base 10, regardless of what n is. When we write it, we mean "base ten," but someone in binary-land would read it as "base two," someone in hexadecimal-stan as "base sixteen," and so on. I find that kind of amusing in discussions like this.

[Peelee]

It is amusing to note though that regardless of which base it is, we users of Arabic numerals and the Latin alphabet would (using that base) write it as 10. What 2 in binary? 10. 16 in hexadecimal? 10. 459 in base 459? 10. :smallamused:

I made that joke two days ago!

They all use base 10 as far as they're concerned. :smallwink:

I'm clearly on the cutting edge of math comedy.

[georgie_leech]

I made that joke two days ago!


I'm clearly on the cutting edge of math comedy.

Somehow I missed that. Wow was I ever ninja'd :smallredface:

[Squire Doodad]

I'm clearly on the cutting edge of math comedy.

Well, not if you claimed it was also true for base 13, because no one makes jokes in base 13. That's why you tell people what's 6*9 in a base 13 system!

[Reboot]

Well, not if you claimed it was also true for base 13, because no one makes jokes in base 13. That's why you tell people what's 6*9 in a base 13 system!

Go take a hitchhike :p

[Fyraltari]

Don't forget to take a towel with you!

[D.One]

Don't forget to take a towel with you!

Unless you hitchhike to a galaxy far far away. There, your towel may become full of sand, and the sand there seems to be more irritating and murder-inducing, so be sure to stay away fron that sand.

[Fyraltari]

Unless you hitchhike to a galaxy far far away. There, your towel may become full of sand, and the sand there seems to be more irritating and murder-inducing, so be sure to stay away fron that sand.

No, you just need to remember to always keep to the high ground.

[D.One]

No, you just need to remember to always keep to the high ground.

And always trust your instincts when you have a bad feeling about something.

[Peelee]

No, you just need to remember to always keep to the high ground.

That always bugged me.


Kenobi: It's over Anakin. I have the high ground.
Anakin: You underestimate my power!
Kenobi: Don't try it.
Anakin: *flips over Kenobi and chops him in half because despite having Obi Wan's lightsaber lit up and being higher up he just watches it happen because apparently that's how Star Wars works, DAMMIT MAUL YOU WERE SO USELESS*

[Dion]

That always bugged me.

I’ve ways been willing to suspend my disbelief and overlook that one tiny flaw in the prequels.

[Fyraltari]

That always bugged me.

Are you bugged by the fact that Obi-Wan saw something he has done himself coming? Why?

https://i.imgflip.com/xkzsb.jpg

[Peelee]

Are you bugged by the fact that Obi-Wan saw something he has done himself coming? Why?

I'm bugged by the fact that Obi-Wan knows that the high ground does not mean victory, yet acts like it does. Or, conversely, how ridiculous it was for Maul to just gape.

[Fyraltari]

I'm bugged by the fact that Obi-Wan knows that the high ground does not mean victory, yet acts like it does. Or, conversely, how ridiculous it was for Maul to just gape.

Yeah it's a wee bit arbitrary that he suddenly decides he has won, not to mention that the symbolism really could have been more subtle. But in-universe it could simply be because he knows Anakin's moves well enough to know he's not fast enough to jump over him like that.

As for Maul, well, you know the rule of perception? "The audience always see things more clearly than the characters" which is why they don't shoot scenes that are in the dark in the actual dark? I think we kind of need to assume the fights are happening much faster than we see them. Since they have super reflexes and all. And at this point in the fight, it's hardly surprising that Maul would drop his guard since Obi-Wan was barely olding on to dear life the moment before.

[Peelee]

Yeah it's a wee bit arbitrary that he suddenly decides he has won, not to mention that the symbolism really could have been more subtle. But in-universe it could simply be because he knows Anakin's moves well enough to know he's not fast enough to jump over him like that.
See, Anakin should have used the Force to fling a nice large glob of lava at Kenobi before jumping. Either the lava does the trick, or it distracts him so Annie can cross over. Stuff like that's why he was never made a master!

As for Maul, well, you know the rule of perception? "The audience always see things more clearly than the characters" which is why they don't shoot scenes that are in the dark in the actual dark? I think we kind of need to assume the fights are happening much faster than we see them. Since they have super reflexes and all. And at this point in the fight, it's hardly surprising that Maul would drop his guard since Obi-Wan was barely holding on to dear life the moment before.

You still run into the Terminator problem; Obi-Wan was down, hanging, unarmed, and Maul just paced around and made sparkies on the floor. Also, Kenobi jumps up and comes down, and while going up may be whatever speed he could manage, you can only come down at 9.8. Cool people don't need units.

[Fyraltari]

See, Anakin should have used the Force to fling a nice large glob of lava at Kenobi before jumping. Either the lava does the trick, or it distracts him so Annie can cross over. Stuff like that's why he was never made a master!
No, but see, lava is molten rock which is just bigger sand and that stuff is coarse, rough and irritating and it gets everywhere, so Anakin would never use that. And Obi-Wan knows Anakin wouldn't!



You still run into the Terminator problem; Obi-Wan was down, hanging, unarmed, and Maul just paced around and made sparkies on the floor.
It's been my headcanon that Maul was under instructions to kill Qui-Gon but try to let his padawan live without making it too obvious since Sidious needs the Jedi's attention away from the Senate and is using the return of the Sith as a distraction to that purpose later on.

Also, Kenobi jumps up and comes down, and while going up may be whatever speed he could manage, you can only come down at 9.8. Cool people don't need units.
This is Star Wars you know, whare anti-grav is easier to come by than whells, ships need constant accelaration not to slow down, nuages of a debris are static and you can get a motion blurs of the stars.
Obi-Wan might be using the force to accelerate his fall. Also falling three meters by gravity alone still only takes a split second.

[137beth]

Since no one mentioned it yet, and it is relevant to the OP, the PDF version of DStP has excerpts from the abandoned OOTS d20 sourcebook. On page 276, there is an explanation of the OOTSverse's calendar.

King Monarch IV of That Kingdom decided that year 0 was when That Kingdom was founded, and the calendar he chose spread throughout the rest of the world. King Monarch also came up with names for the months and days of the week, but even the citizens of That Kingdom thought that his names were silly and hard to remember, and that he was trying too hard to establish that this was a fantasy world. Hence, the people of That Kingdom continued to refer to the months as January, February, etc, and to the days as Sunday, Monday, etc.