Help finding a role on a adventurer's group I just join as a binder

[Lazarock]

Hey !

I will soon join a group of lvl 9 adventurers (a minmax druid with his giant polar bear (only 152hp, yay), a paladin, a ranger and an artificer with his warblade familiar) as a kobold binder.
No multiclass allowed, only prestige classes.
The campaign will stop before arriving lvl 10.

I usually take caster classes so this time I choose to be polyvalent.

But I face a dilemma : what can I do in this group ?
Druid is spellcaster,
his bear, the paladin & the warblade take the frontlane
Ranger take the ranged spot

And I'm here.
I could take any spot (outside of the spellcaster one) but, it doesn't feel "right".

So i choose to be a binder 6 / KoSS 3 (we will face dragons, so immunity to fear seems right)

My original plan was to use Malphas to scout and when I saw a bunch of ennemies, turn invisible and launch a whirlmind attack (with Paimon binded) with a shortblade with the "sudden stunning" enchantment and then let the frontlane do their job (when already done like 5d6 damages from malphas & Andromalius + normal weapon damages). If their is not so much of them, then no whirlmind and just a dance followed by a flicker from Tenebrous.

But, now it seems vain for me, and I'm a bit lost I confess.

I have already read the two best handbook there is, but can't really choose what I can do.

It started by choosing feats (spoiler alert, I couldn't choose between bind Balam (instead of Malphas) or take the Weapon finesse feat, and I took a ring who gives me advantage on initiative roll so Improved initiative seems a bit overkill RN) and know I'm questionning every choice I made

ahahah help ?

TL.DR :
What can a Binder do on a party already well made, and which feat can he takes to be useful ?
No caster wanted, no multiclass allowed, lvl 9 and no chance to see Zceryll or Chuboclops

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Level 9 is a bad level for a Binder. You get Zceryll at level 10 (which is amazing!) if you took Improved Binding, but at level 9 you can just do a lot of things badly and nothing extremely well.

Being in the same group as a minmaxed druid and an artificer will make your weakness even worse, as they are extremely powerful and can do basically everything better than you can. So my first suggestion is : don't play a Binder if you're afraid of having no role in the party. A Druid can scout better than you, can be more useful in combat, and has strong and versatile utility magic. What's left for you?
Answer : not much.
And that's why it's best to pick a class that's in the same Tier as everyone else at character generation.

If you still want to play someone who can do a little bit of everything, here are some suggestions :

Beg your GM to let you use Zceryll a level early. That vestige alone makes you incredibly versatile : see the Binder handbook and the Binder's Spell List handbook to see all the amazing stuff you can do with that Vestige. It's amazing!
Play an Anima Mage. It's a prestige class that lets you be a Binder with Arcane spells, and it vastly increases the versatility of a normal Binder. There are early entry-tricks, so assuming feat retraining (see the Player's handbook 2) is allowed you can take the cost out of your starting gold and play something like Wizard 1/Anima Mage 8. Or maybe Binder 2/Beguiler 1/Anima Mage 6, depending on which early entry trick you used.
Play a Factotum 8 +1 level in some PrC (perhaps Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight?). This sort of build can do a lot of things like find traps, be good at social skills, scout with Hide in Plain Sight (from a PrC or from a Continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis), can use poison and alchemy in combat, can use Iaijutsu focus for melee damage, and can take several standard actions per round if you've taken the Font of Inspiration feat enough times. You can create your own poison with Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation).
Beguiler. A Beguiler is good at finding traps, can have good stealth and social skills, and has enough magic to play battlefield control, illusions and mind control. I love Beguilers :D
Obviously a minmaxed Cleric or Wizard can do almost anything. If you pick a role for the day while preparing spells, it can do it. Still, that is quote different from playing a Binder.








And now if you really do want to stick with Binder :

Have you already chosen your feats and skills? Because if you haven't, you could at least take Leadership (check if it's allowed - your post suggested that the artificer took it) and grab a cohort. Cohorts are great, and you could pick a spellcaster to buff you or something. Dragonfire Inspiration Bard works very well with a Paimon Build, for example.

Note that you don't need KOSS to become immune to fear. You get fear immunity for free at Binder level 6.

[pabelfly]

Talon has some good suggestions.

My thought: talk to your DM and see how many uses of Turn Undead they'd give you if you had Tenebrous bound to you (can bind at level 7 even without Improved Binding). How many you get is not clear, but since you're in the same party as an Artificer and a Druid, I'd argue for 3 + Charisma, which is what a Cleric gets, but you would get that many uses every five rounds. You could then make all of those uses of Turn Undead power Devotion feats, which you could constantly activate throughout the day at ten rounds at a time, so it's like having those bonuses permanently added to your character.

The level 9 version of my current character is a Giant Octopus Binder using the same trick, and looks roughly look like this:
Giant Octopus 2/Binder 7
1 - Multiweapon Fighting
3 - Travel Devotion (2 uses of Turn Undead)
Binder 4 - Medium Armor Proficiency
6 - Animal Devotion (Ape's Fury and Cheetah's Sprint, with Hawk's Flight being available if you need it) (3 uses of Turn Undead each)
9 - Law Devotion (3 uses of Turn Undead)

If you can get flaws, I'd see what other devotion feats might work for your character.

These various devotion feats (you'd need at least 16 Charisma if you don't get extra Devotion feats through flaws) would give your character +4 Strength, +15ft base land speed, swift action movement, and +3 to Attack Rolls on top of your strength bonus.

There are plenty of other Devotion feats though, so hopefully this gives you a few ideas to get started, should your DM give you a good amount of Turn Undead uses for your Binder to make use of.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, the party seems to lack casters more than martial types. There's one Druid that also fights and an Artificer, who mostly makes stuff and casts Infusions. As said, Zceryll would let you fake it as a caster, but right now you're mostly a utility character with a martial bent, of which the party is already full of. Your only real option is to go in there and do stuff similar to the other guys - but the Druid is already doing everything (and the Artificer probably as well) so it's not like you could avoid doing some of the same stuff he does anyways.

[Lazarock]

So my first suggestion is : don't play a Binder if you're afraid of having no role in the party. A Druid can scout better than you, can be more useful in combat, and has strong and versatile utility magic. What's left for you?
Answer : not much.

Yeah, I wasn't aware that there was a druid and a paladin on the team when the DM first propose me to join. (it was a factotum, who died)
The artificer was the warblade but was bored and found the "oh this is my master" plot to reroll without killing his caracter.


If you still want to play someone who can do a little bit of everything, here are some suggestions :
Beg your GM to let you use Zceryll a level early. That vestige alone makes you incredibly versatile : see the Binder handbook and the Binder's Spell List handbook to see all the amazing stuff you can do with that Vestige. It's amazing!
I already ask, as for Chu', he refuses.


Play an Anima Mage. It's a prestige class that lets you be a Binder with Arcane spells, and it vastly increases the versatility of a normal Binder. There are early entry-tricks, so assuming feat retraining (see the Player's handbook 2) is allowed you can take the cost out of your starting gold and play something like Wizard 1/Anima Mage 8. Or maybe Binder 2/Beguiler 1/Anima Mage 6, depending on which early entry trick you used.

Can't multiclass, I'll try to be Wizard/Anima, not sure if it can go on


Play a Factotum 8 +1 level in some PrC (perhaps Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight?). This sort of build can do a lot of things like find traps, be good at social skills, scout with Hide in Plain Sight (from a PrC or from a Continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis), can use poison and alchemy in combat, can use Iaijutsu focus for melee damage, and can take several standard actions per round if you've taken the Font of Inspiration feat enough times. You can create your own poison with Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation).

Oh, nice one !


Beguiler. A Beguiler is good at finding traps, can have good stealth and social skills, and has enough magic to play battlefield control, illusions and mind control. I love Beguilers :D
Obviously a minmaxed Cleric or Wizard can do almost anything. If you pick a role for the day while preparing spells, it can do it. Still, that is quote different from playing a Binder.

ahahah, yeah, I thought we will be fun being only with Tier 3-4, but next time, I'll ask what is the most recent party's composition before annoncing my class choice ^^



And now if you really do want to stick with Binder :

Have you already chosen your feats and skills? Because if you haven't, you could at least take Leadership (check if it's allowed - your post suggested that the artificer took it) and grab a cohort. Cohorts are great, and you could pick a spellcaster to buff you or something. Dragonfire Inspiration Bard works very well with a Paimon Build, for example.

Note that you don't need KOSS to become immune to fear. You get fear immunity for free at Binder level 6.
I haven't, I'd like to stick to a "physical" binder, I'll ask the DM if I can take the leadership (for the artificer, it's something else, his warblade was a lot weakened when he asked the DM to reroll).

KoSS wasn't for fear immunity in fact, the Binder 6 / Koss 3 was to take the fear immunity at Binder 6 ^^


Thanks for your advices :)

[Lazarock]

Talon has some good suggestions.

My thought: talk to your DM and see how many uses of Turn Undead they'd give you if you had Tenebrous bound to you (can bind at level 7 even without Improved Binding). How many you get is not clear,
It's in fact pretty clear to me :
Once every 5 rounds.


The level 9 version of my current character is a Giant Octopus Binder using the same trick, and looks roughly look like this:
Giant Octopus 2/Binder 7
1 - Multiweapon Fighting
3 - Travel Devotion (2 uses of Turn Undead)
Binder 4 - Medium Armor Proficiency
6 - Animal Devotion (Ape's Fury and Cheetah's Sprint, with Hawk's Flight being available if you need it) (3 uses of Turn Undead each)
9 - Law Devotion (3 uses of Turn Undead)

If you can get flaws, I'd see what other devotion feats might work for your character.

These various devotion feats (you'd need at least 16 Charisma if you don't get extra Devotion feats through flaws) would give your character +4 Strength, +15ft base land speed, swift action movement, and +3 to Attack Rolls on top of your strength bonus.

There are plenty of other Devotion feats though, so hopefully this gives you a few ideas to get started, should your DM give you a good amount of Turn Undead uses for your Binder to make use of.
Oh !
I didn't thought of these feats, I'll give it a look, thanks !

Honestly, the party seems to lack casters more than martial types. There's one Druid that also fights and an Artificer, who mostly makes stuff and casts Infusions. As said, Zceryll would let you fake it as a caster, but right now you're mostly a utility character with a martial bent, of which the party is already full of. Your only real option is to go in there and do stuff similar to the other guys - but the Druid is already doing everything (and the Artificer probably as well) so it's not like you could avoid doing some of the same stuff he does anyways.
Yeah, the druid is really the problem here.
I talk to the rest of the party, and if the artificer is not fond of optimization, just roleplaying his character and being the builder, leaving his (old) warblade do some fighting, the druid is really a minmaxer.
To the point where he "forget" to tell the DM that his giant polar bear (he gains it after something like a 30min argument with the DM, when they were on another plane) could be cheesy when he took his 9th level feat Natural Bond.
I already played some other campaign with him, he's always trying to have the "best on everything" character, so I was relieved when I heard he was playing a factotum... But he since died.

[pabelfly]

It's in fact pretty clear to me :
Once every 5 rounds.

The handbook I used to help research building a binder (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2942.0) offers three possible interpretations of how many uses you get out of it, and makes a reasonable case for a reading of all three options.

In any case, there's no reason not to talk to your DM and see what he or she thinks, especially since you need to discuss your character with them to clear it for the table beforehand. The worst that happens is that they exactly agree with you, and you might be fortunate to have a DM that has a more favourable/lenient reading that boosts your character's power and possible options.

[Meditation]

The handbook I used to help research building a binder (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2942.0) offers three possible interpretations of how many uses you get out of it, and makes a reasonable case for a reading of all three options.

That handbook is misleading on that point. Not only does the text imply that Binder-provided Turn Undead is useful for feats, it provides no provision for a cap. . . and every time a vestige is limited by a cap, the Binder class explicitly describes that situation. You get exactly what the text says: a single Turn Undead use, then the ability to gain another, single, use in 5 turns. If you want to use this with feats that consume more than one such uses at a time, you stack Binder with sources of Turn Undead that can be used simultaneously with the former.

If you want to keep up with the rest of a medium- to high-op party, Binder into Ur-Priest is a strong option, all of which is synergetic with Anima Mage and early entry techniques. And it's thematically appropriate.

[Lazarock]

The handbook I used to help research building a binder offers three possible interpretations of how many uses you get out of it, and makes a reasonable case for a reading of all three options.

In any case, there's no reason not to talk to your DM and see what he or she thinks, especially since you need to discuss your character with them to clear it for the table beforehand. The worst that happens is that they exactly agree with you, and you might be fortunate to have a DM that has a more favourable/lenient reading that boosts your character's power and possible options.

I saw these interpretations, but the text was clear to me, but I still asked the GM to be sure, and he agreed with me :
Once every 5 rounds :smallsmile:
I forgot to ask him about taking a feat without always have the ability needed, I'll try to cover this today

[pabelfly]

I saw these interpretations, but the text was clear to me, but I still asked the GM to be sure, and he agreed with me :
Once every 5 rounds :smallsmile:
I forgot to ask him about taking a feat without always have the ability needed, I'll try to cover this today

Fair enough. Makes using Devotion feats a bit harder, but there are other ways to boost your Turn Undead uses if you still want to build a character around the idea.

[Lazarock]

Fair enough. Makes using Devotion feats a bit harder, but there are other ways to boost your Turn Undead uses if you still want to build a character around the idea.

His answer is : "you can have access to these feats even when not bound to Tenebrous, you just can't re-use them without him".
But I asked him how he understands :
"If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you gain one additional daily use of this feat for each three daily turn or rebuke use you expend.", if I have to be able to launch them on the same time or if I must say "I renonce at 3 daily uses".

I'm waiting for his answer, but on the theory, he's not against the idea of using Tenebrous ability to boost these feats.

[pabelfly]

His answer is : "you can have access to these feats even when not bound to Tenebrous, you just can't re-use them without him".
But I asked him how he understands :
"If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you gain one additional daily use of this feat for each three daily turn or rebuke use you expend.", if I have to be able to launch them on the same time or if I must say "I renonce at 3 daily uses".

I'm waiting for his answer, but on the theory, he's not against the idea of using Tenebrous ability to boost these feats.

When you take the feat you get to use it once, even if you have no uses of Turn Undead. If you have Tenebrous and a way of getting extra Turn Undead uses beyond your one use per five rounds, you get to spend those uses of Turn Undead to reuse the feat for the day.

[Lazarock]

So he... autorized the use of these abilities once every 15 turns (when there is a need of 3 return, 10 for 2 return etc...).
I'm pretty impressed, didn't think he'll do it.

So I think I'll take some of these feats, thanks.
Maybe some utility one in addition.

[pabelfly]

So he... autorized the use of these abilities once every 15 turns (when there is a need of 3 return, 10 for 2 return etc...).
I'm pretty impressed, didn't think he'll do it.

So I think I'll take some of these feats, thanks.
Maybe some utility one in addition.

Sounds like a lot of fun. Interested to see what you come up with.

[daremetoidareyo]

Lerages ricochet shot can be fun if you have a big ole cannon. Try to get one of those spell cannons from airships in one of the splats. (Heroes of battle?) Or maybe a grell lightning Lance.

At 8 you can bind two vestiges. So Malphas and dantallion can get you anywhere that you can get a raven. Birds eye viewing + thoughts travel ability.


Arete + powerstones can get you somewhere. If you take a psionic tattoo feat, you can just bind him in your off time with tattoos of his powers attached. Ahem...astaroth?

That vestige that offers the share pain ability paired with paimon with the share pain on the druids summons (eurynome makes them friendly towards you) or the polar bear will make you a beast in the thick of battle. Travel devotion will make you able to get into place for whirlwind attacks. And you can power that on your tenebrous days.