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NRSASD
2019-07-14, 07:45 AM
Hey Playground!

I've got an odd problem to resolve. I was trying out a new idea for a campaign, one where Xanathar's downtime rules would play a major role, and my players dislike it. They say it feels too boardgame-y, and while they love boardgames, that's not why they play D&D. Unfortunately, I had built a core mechanic around said downtime rules, and now I need to restructure it. Here's the situation:

The party are representing their home province at the royal court, trying to secure aid for back home because it's being invaded by mysterious, magical forces. The party has access to tons of money despite being low level (one of them is the heir of the province and has access to the treasury), but they know very little about the bad guys. They need to research the bad guys in order to make their case to the court.

As a DM, I want the research to be highly expensive and take a while, because the longer it takes the more pressure can be applied to the PCs; the more political maneuvering can occur (which all the players enjoy and are totally onboard with). The problem is I'm not sure how one can make research expensive and time consuming while being entertaining to roleplay, especially since I only have a few scraps of lore regarding the bad guys. A lot of their research inherently has to cost money and go nowhere, or at least take a long time and a large amount of effort to produce very little.

My thoughts so far are maybe they can find out where specific scraps of knowledge are located and have to befriend/rob/fight their to it; the problem with that is that it doesn't inherently cost a lot of money. Maybe bribery or buying access to rare archives is a better way to go? Or paying sages upfront for their time? Please let me know what other ideas you've tried.

As always, thanks for any and all help!

Zhorn
2019-07-14, 08:05 AM
A lot of their research inherently has to cost money and go nowhere

This is probably the biggest problem as it is a railroad of failure.
You're setting up something for the players to attempt with an intention of it not being successful.

I've recently let the players in my campaign use some downtime for a range of different things, but one thing I was sure to avoid was rolls for success/failure because a wasted effort is not fun for the players.

Instead, I set the baseline level of success as guaranteed, with additional outcomes/complications as a result of the cost investment. These additional components needn't be directly tied to the specifics of what the players are seeking, or what you want them to know, but tangentially connected instead.

Example: You want them to research the enemy, and they will be guaranteed to find out a set number of things, BUT if they go about it cheaply, spies could be caught, contacts could be compromised, rivals could be alerted, or additional enemies could be made.

Things that are essential to progressing the story should be certainties.

GloatingSwine
2019-07-14, 08:38 AM
If finding out about the enemy is the important thing for the party to be doing for overall campaign success, that shouldn't be the downtime resource sink, it should be the adventure.

Also, just having success/fail rolls for an overall goal means there were no choices the players could make to improve their chances of a positive outcome. If the only option the player has is "roll better next time" then they're not feeling the time pressure for success, they're feeling the annoyance of a low outcome random chance.

Tanarii
2019-07-14, 09:08 AM
The downtime rules are meant to feel "boardgamey". They are a way to avoid DM handwavium to resolve what happens between the actual adventures, taking just a few minutes of table time at the end or beginning of a session, or being done with one-on-one sessions with the DM between sessions. They are not meant to be a major part of the active gameplay. They are a mechanical way for PC ability scores and skills to modify how long and how much for these activities.

If your players don't like their ability scores and/or skill proficiencies (Int in this case) modifying how long it takes and how much money they spend when using downtime, just tell them you're going back to DM fiat.

If you want it to be part of the table time, you're going to have to figure out how to make Research into an exciting adventure including multiple decision points by the players, that include automatic success/failure and a variety of mechanical resolutions based on the decisions being made and actions/paths resulting from them. Good luck with that.

erikun
2019-07-14, 09:12 AM
What the party is doing seems disconnected from what is actually happening in the game.

Consider: The party's home territory is being attacked. Magical forces are invading the territory. The party is trying to get help for this problem. The party needs to convince royalty that they need help for this problem. What would be a reasonable way to convince royalty that there is a problem and that help is needed? Well, they would probably need to prove that the territory is actually being attacked. They would need to prove that the attack is magical. They'd need to prove that this is an actual threat, as opposed to something minor and local that they are abusing to get resources. They'd need to prove that the royalty can help, and that the help will be effective.

What are they actually doing? They're spending a lot of time and money on research papers, and then handing those papers over to convince people.

I can understand why there is a disconnect.

The first question I have is why, if the party has access to this much time and money, don't they just set out resolving the situation themselves? I mean, if they are sitting on some massive amount of funds to help save their home territory, why are they spending all those resources to convince the royalty to help, rather than hiring that help themselves? Are those "tons of money" really just 500g-1000g in total and spending 10g at a time to do research? Do the royals have something unusual in the setting that would solve the problem so that their participation is required? Is this something that an army can deal with, despite being a magical invasion? Is the royal army so well armed that they can deal with magical invasions?

Second question, what is the party doing while the research is happening? When they throw down their 10g or whatever and scientists start testing or collecting or anything, what does the party do? Are they going out to adventure and collect funds for further research? Are they the ones actually going out and doing the collecting, etc. to supply for the research? If it is the former, then you could have the campaign really be about gathering together enough funds to secure the safety of the province; the method (research to convince the nobles) is kind of a background reason. If it is the later, then the success of the adventures has a direct impact on how well they are doing. If they successfully collect the thing the research needs, then the research succeeds.

Thid question, what is the actual goal of the party right now? Yes, the goal is a vague "convince the royals" but the specific goal the party is trying to accomplish is "roll a d20 eight times with a 15+ result" or something similar, isn't it? Perhaps it shouldn't be surprising that the party feels like it's a board game rather than a roleplaying game. The goal that the party is trying to accomplish should be something in-universe, not an abstract number of dice to roll. They are trying to convince the royals, correct? Well then how about giving the characters a number of royals, actual NPCs with motivations and reasons for not supporting, and what they need to be convinced to lend their support? Perhaps one royal thinks the party is lying and trying to get funds to deal with a minor local issue; they'd need to be convinced that it is a major threat. Perhaps one doesn't think the royal army can really deal with the situation and doesn't want to send it. Perhaps one is crooked and just won't go along without a bribe or blackmail. Perhaps one simply won't support but can be convinced on a personal level if the PCs are willing to help them out. Perhaps one doesn't care about all this, but could be encouraged by giving them permission or a discount to the province's resources. Perhaps one does support the party, but someone has kidnapped their children and are forced them to vote against it.

Have the royal meeting at a regular time, every month or every three months. If the PCs can get enough people on their side, then the royals will agree to send support. If not, then the whole thing is delayed further and the PCs need to continue their work. It not only gives the PCs some distinct NPCs to interact with, it gives them some solid goals to work towards - perhaps they'll need to convince this one royal and do a job for this other royal before the next meeting. And requiring just some of the royals to agree means that they can choose to either work harder, getting the ones on your side with no strings attached but possibly taking longer, or they can work faster by getting votes but possibly promising resources from the province in exchange.

I am not familiar with Xanathar's downtime rules so no opinion there.

NRSASD
2019-07-14, 09:17 AM
This is probably the biggest problem as it is a railroad of failure.
You're setting up something for the players to attempt with an intention of it not being successful.

I've recently let the players in my campaign use some downtime for a range of different things, but one thing I was sure to avoid was rolls for success/failure because a wasted effort is not fun for the players.

Instead, I set the baseline level of success as guaranteed, with additional outcomes/complications as a result of the cost investment. These additional components needn't be directly tied to the specifics of what the players are seeking, or what you want them to know, but tangentially connected instead.

Things that are essential to progressing the story should be certainties.

Oooo, that's a good point. I'll see what I can do to rework and incorporate that design philosophy into what I already have.


If finding out about the enemy is the important thing for the party to be doing for overall campaign success, that shouldn't be the downtime resource sink, it should be the adventure.

Also, just having success/fail rolls for an overall goal means there were no choices the players could make to improve their chances of a positive outcome. If the only option the player has is "roll better next time" then they're not feeling the time pressure for success, they're feeling the annoyance of a low outcome random chance.

How I envisioned it initially, the research is less "the adventure" and more "progress bar". So long as the party can continue hurling time and money at it, victory is assured. The adventure is surviving long for that to happen, without getting assassinated/exiled/trapped in an arranged marriage, etc., by playing the various factions against one another.

The political intrigue side seems to be working well, and they're enjoying that aspect quite a lot. The research side is not as successful, and that's where I need help figuring out how to change the research from being "spend x gold and beat y DC" to being an actual adventure.

I have let them do things that modify the odds of being successful with their research, but yeah, it's been more mechanical than roleplaying. I'm looking for ideas to strengthen the roleplay aspect.

Thanks for your help!

NRSASD
2019-07-14, 09:33 AM
The first question I have is why, if the party has access to this much time and money, don't they just set out resolving the situation themselves? I mean, if they are sitting on some massive amount of funds to help save their home territory, why are they spending all those resources to convince the royalty to help, rather than hiring that help themselves? Are those "tons of money" really just 500g-1000g in total and spending 10g at a time to do research? Do the royals have something unusual in the setting that would solve the problem so that their participation is required? Is this something that an army can deal with, despite being a magical invasion? Is the royal army so well armed that they can deal with magical invasions?

It's about 8000 gp. The problem that the home province is facing is that all the other provinces dislike them for historical reasons, and their local military isn't able to stop hit and run raids that are destroying settlements but leaving no trace. None of the other provinces are having this issue, and the king is out of town for the foreseeable future, unable to force the other counties into helping out. Additionally, the regent for the king is kinda scum and it's public knowledge that if something bad happens to the PCs home rulers, their province will be divided up among the other regions.

All the other provinces have very valid reasons to stay uninvolved, and have a lot to gain if something goes wrong. The PCs are trying to persuade them otherwise.



Second question, what is the party doing while the research is happening? When they throw down their 10g or whatever and scientists start testing or collecting or anything, what does the party do? Are they going out to adventure and collect funds for further research? Are they the ones actually going out and doing the collecting, etc. to supply for the research? If it is the former, then you could have the campaign really be about gathering together enough funds to secure the safety of the province; the method (research to convince the nobles) is kind of a background reason. If it is the later, then the success of the adventures has a direct impact on how well they are doing. If they successfully collect the thing the research needs, then the research succeeds.

They're trying to gather funds through politicking, urban adventuring, and heists. But... they also have to spend time researching to get the answers they need. Thus juggling between research and secure funding for research.



Thid question, what is the actual goal of the party right now? Yes, the goal is a vague "convince the royals" but the specific goal the party is trying to accomplish is "roll a d20 eight times with a 15+ result" or something similar, isn't it? Perhaps it shouldn't be surprising that the party feels like it's a board game rather than a roleplaying game. The goal that the party is trying to accomplish should be something in-universe, not an abstract number of dice to roll. They are trying to convince the royals, correct? Well then how about giving the characters a number of royals, actual NPCs with motivations and reasons for not supporting, and what they need to be convinced to lend their support? Perhaps one royal thinks the party is lying and trying to get funds to deal with a minor local issue; they'd need to be convinced that it is a major threat. Perhaps one doesn't think the royal army can really deal with the situation and doesn't want to send it. Perhaps one is crooked and just won't go along without a bribe or blackmail. Perhaps one simply won't support but can be convinced on a personal level if the PCs are willing to help them out. Perhaps one doesn't care about all this, but could be encouraged by giving them permission or a discount to the province's resources. Perhaps one does support the party, but someone has kidnapped their children and are forced them to vote against it.

Have the royal meeting at a regular time, every month or every three months. If the PCs can get enough people on their side, then the royals will agree to send support. If not, then the whole thing is delayed further and the PCs need to continue their work. It not only gives the PCs some distinct NPCs to interact with, it gives them some solid goals to work towards - perhaps they'll need to convince this one royal and do a job for this other royal before the next meeting. And requiring just some of the royals to agree means that they can choose to either work harder, getting the ones on your side with no strings attached but possibly taking longer, or they can work faster by getting votes but possibly promising resources from the province in exchange.

Yep, the whole court is built as actual NPCs. The PCs are trying to drum up military support, and they can do it through mercenary companies/noble friends/etc. That part is all roleplay and quite a lot of fun. The unfortunate part is that the research is very mechanically driven.

In reflection, I'm thinking it might be better to just handwave the research offscreen. The downside is I was hoping to make it more engaging than that.

erikun
2019-07-14, 09:59 AM
Well, you might want to make the research more specific. Like, what are they ACTUALLY researching? Are they going to the ruined towns to find out information? Are they trying to track magical influences around the kingdom? Kind of like before, it might be worthwhile to give a set of goals that are being accomplished, so the players have an idea of what is happening and can possibly influence it. If they want to spend money figuring out what kinds of creatures are attacking and where they are coming from, this can result in different information than if they are focusing on determining what kind of magical scrying is in effect and where it is happening in the kingdom.

So you could still have the research rolls and spending money to accomplish a goal, but rather than having 90% of the goals just failures, have each one a minor victory. If the researchers figure out that it's ogres and not orcs attacking, then money can be spent in town defenses against large creatures. If the researchers figure out that there are also worg-riding goblins as well, then they can use anti-cavalry also. They can keep spending money and research into the "figure out what is attacking" "tree" in order to build up the town defenses, so that some people might survive and be able to give first-hand accounts of what is happening, further helping research and helping to convince neighbors.

Or they could research the magic scrying happening in the kingdom, spending money to block it and so causing the attacks to not exclusively be against defenseless towns. Or they could just increase the home guard, giving more troops who might be around when an attack hits. Or they could be researching where the threat is coming from, perhaps helping to provide evidence that direct neighbors wouldn't want to ignore an enemy partially on their own territory.


I think the problem is that it's just a roll that they throw some money at, then are told the result. There's little context and apparently there's little direct effect of the roll either. If the research was about something, and if the party could even possibly do something with the result, it would feel less like an irrelevant side-game that the plot is following and more like a part of what the PCs are actively working towards.

False God
2019-07-14, 10:26 AM
I would lean into having to pay-per-view the party.

IE: the Scrolls of Doom are kept under lock and key in the Tower of Mystery and under no circumstances are the players allowed access. However there may or may not be a friendly inside man who may or may not be able to get their hands on some of the relevant documents, or at least transcribe them. Whether this service is illicit (all the more fun if it is!) or not is up to you of course.

But in this way the players themselves wouldn't be required to do the actual research (I honestly can't think of anyone who wants to do actual research in D&D) but they would have to expend potentially large sums of money to pay off guards, acolytes and so forth.

Also, from experience when doing even light research in games before: Get that information ready! If you say "You've discovered the details of *thing*!" then you better be prepared to have ALL the details on that thing ready for the players. If you're gonna make them study, be prepared for them to want the full download on that.

Tanarii
2019-07-14, 11:31 AM
How I envisioned it initially, the research is less "the adventure" and more "progress bar". So long as the party can continue hurling time and money at it, victory is assured. The adventure is surviving long for that to happen, without getting assassinated/exiled/trapped in an arranged marriage, etc., by playing the various factions against one another.

The political intrigue side seems to be working well, and they're enjoying that aspect quite a lot. The research side is not as successful, and that's where I need help figuring out how to change the research from being "spend x gold and beat y DC" to being an actual adventure.

In reflection, I'm thinking it might be better to just handwave the research offscreen. The downside is I was hoping to make it more engaging than that.Just ask them if they want their offscreen progress (time and cost) to be determined by a die roll and modified by their abilities scores, or the offscreen progress determined by your decision / fiat.

Some groups prefer the former, and they're the ones the Xanathars rules are for. Others prefer the latter, and they've got a DM for that.