Protections of Kraagar's Tomb Theory

[Schroeswald]

So awhile ago I saw someone mention that they thought (or thought it was more likely than any other trick) that Serini made Kraagar's Tomb to be a combination of all the other Scribble members defensive strategies, and that has sort of stuck with me. Recently I came up with an idea for how those protections would go so here are my ideas for that,

So the clearest protections would represent Kraagor and Dorukan (though strength and magic also appear later), what we've seen, a series of caves with monsters you have to kill where you have to fight through due to some powerful magic. The gate is inside one of them, but its unclear where, its covered in illusions and bluffs (Girard) and the only way to figure out where is to find the people who would know. This is where it gets a bit weird, the people who know being a group of native Bugbears (Lirian, though this one is pretty loose), and they won't give in because they happen to be honorable (I know Bugbears are Chaotic Evil, but "always chaotic evil" is being subverted and examined here so a small group a lawful non-evil Bugbears isn't crazy, also from Soon's protections), and even if you get them to join you or torture or divine information out of them you still have to destroy your way through all the illusions, and barriers to get the gate.

The reason I chose all this stuff is also because Redcloak and Xykon will make it to the Gate, and the Order will reach it just in time to be able to stop them from enacting the Plan, because that's how plots work, however the exact details play out (racing, following them tricks, whatever) this is the most likely thing to happen. That means they have to break through, so I also have a theory for how they can. Eventually the doors will all be marked off and so they'll eventually start looking for other means to find it. Since the the Bugbears are nearby eventually they'll find this clan or family or whatever, and Redcloak will likely be able to win them to his side. The rest of this is fairly easy with the Epic-level Xykon, possibly Epic-level by then Redcloak, high level Oona and the incredibly strong :mitd:, they can dispel the effect, break through the barriers, and then the Order arrives.

I'm not sure I really believe this theory I've made but I do like it and find it plausible and very possible, especially in the broad strokes, so here's a weird theory.

[KorvinStarmast]

Eventually the doors will all be marked off and so they'll eventually start looking for other means to find it. Since the the Bugbears are nearby eventually they'll find this clan or family or whatever, and Redcloak will likely be able to win them to his side. The rest of this is fairly easy with the Epic-level Xykon, possibly Epic-level by then Redcloak, high level Oona and the incredibly strong :mitd:, they can dispel the effect, break through the barriers, and then the Order arrives.

I'm not sure I really believe this theory I've made but I do like it and find it plausible and very possible, especially in the broad strokes, so here's a weird theory. But some of the marked off doors will not have been investigated, thanks to a clever MiTD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html).

Also, MiTD may not fight on the side of Xykon, swinging the battle's balance a bit, O Chul and Lien neutralize the bug Bear threat a bit.

[CriticalFailure]

I think that Serini combined Kragaar's belief in might with rogue trickery in some way, likely having the extradimensional stone around it.

[brian 333]

I think it's easy to underestimate the true power of a rogue, especially when one is used to playing classes with more focussed abilities.

I agree there will be many layers of defense, but that will be because Serini used her own abilities when designing the dungeon.

[Jannoire]

How does Soon fit in OP's theory?

[Schroeswald]

How does Soon fit in OP's theory?

Soon believes in the value of honor and so the bugbears protecting it are defending it with their honor.

[Dungeon-noob]

Personally, i think that if there is a twist to the last gate's defenses (i can't tell what with the writing of the Giant catching me of guard often enough), that it's going to be that the entire dungeon and tribute to might is a diversion, with the real gate hidden somewhere else, probably in plain sight. The statue to Kraagor is my current guess, but we haven't seen the area all that well for that guess to be any good. It would fit with a rogue to rely on stealth and information control to defend a gate, rather then pure might that can be bypassed by a sufficiently powerfull or clever opponent (like a rogue would well know, often being said opponent).

I would also guess that there would be an "obvious" element to it, that would stand out to someone friendly and upbeat like Sereni, but that would elude most grumpier or less nice people, like most villians she'd be guarding the gate from. What said element would be i can't even guess at though.

[KorvinStarmast]

What if Serini had herself put into suspended animation, sorta like Snow White, next to the last gate and she comes out of it to do an epic level sneak attack on anyone who tries to touch the gate .... after they've gottens somewhat depleted HP due to fighting all of those monsters.

[Peelee]

Personally, i think that if there is a twist to the last gate's defenses (i can't tell what with the writing of the Giant catching me of guard often enough), that it's going to be that the entire dungeon and tribute to might is a diversion, with the real gate hidden somewhere else, probably in plain sight. The statue to Kraagor is my current guess, but we haven't seen the area all that well for that guess to be any good. It would fit with a rogue to rely on stealth and information control to defend a gate, rather then pure might that can be bypassed by a sufficiently powerfull or clever opponent (like a rogue would well know, often being said opponent).

I would also guess that there would be an "obvious" element to it, that would stand out to someone friendly and upbeat like Sereni, but that would elude most grumpier or less nice people, like most villians she'd be guarding the gate from. What said element would be i can't even guess at though.

Why would she want it to be obvious to anyone, though? The Gates are not meant to be accessed. Their only purpose is to help hold the world together. The Scribblers also pretty much kept to the information blackout, not telling anyone about the Gates or their defenses except to a select few who were explicitly and inherently involved in helping guard the Gates. The only reason Xykon and Redcloak even know about the dungeons at Kraagor's Gate is because they had Serini's diary, which we can safely assume was never meant to be read by anyone but Serini, and she had the true coordinates for Girard's Gate, so there's no reason to think that she was hiding or obfuscating anything.

And that's not to mention how bad an idea leaving it effectively unguarded would be. Any random adventuring party, on finding a mountain full of hundreds of dungeons with unimaginably powerful creatures with a statue right outside, would check the statue first thing, which immediately destroys the entire purpose of a defense to start with.

[RatElemental]

And that's not to mention how bad an idea leaving it effectively unguarded would be. Any random adventuring party, on finding a mountain full of hundreds of dungeons with unimaginably powerful creatures with a statue right outside, would check the statue first thing, such immediately destroys the entire purpose of a defense to start with.

That, or smash the statue out of frustration after grinding their way through a dozen doors or two.

[Rrmcklin]

The whole "use trickery to hide in plain sight if other defenses are past" has already been done with the last gate. I'm not going to discount there possibly being more to this than we've been lead on, but going "Serini was a rogue, so of course there is" is not why.

Peelee has already gone over why an elaborate ruse that leaves the Gate easily accessible if figured out is a bad idea, and the whole "the real gate is the statue" idea is so obvious, I'd almost be a crime if the characters didn't immediately think of it.

[Rollin]

I don't think we'll meet a second bugbear tribe at the north pole. Oona's remarks in #1039 suggest she doesn't know of another. Of course, they might not be bugbears.

[Squire Doodad]

I am with the "Serini may be still alive, even if as an undead thing" theory. It feels appropriate is all :smallbiggrin:

If the Order make it to the gate before Team Evil, they'll probably have to contend with a pissed off Serini before she joins them for a moment.

[RatElemental]

My personal hypothesis is that the trick is that none of the doors lead to the gate, at least at first.

Serini put a hidden lever at the end of one or more doors, possibly all of them, and when all of them are pulled then a pathway to the gate opens. Combines rogueish thinking with dependence on physical might to defend the levers, and lives up to Serini being the voice of reason.

[Fish]

First, there’s no reason to assume the Order will arrive in time to stop the Plan. Watching a god-killing abomination go to town on some of the complacent higher-ups might introduce some tension to the climax of the story. I assume there’s a reason Rich came up with art designs for all those gods, most of whom had only 1 or 2 lines — we have to know what the gods look like for later.

Second, it’s a good bet that Serini the Rogue is engaging in information control. After all, she took the trouble to encode her diary (presumably because she knew someone would read it eventually). Has she taken any other steps? I don’t know.

What I really want to be true is that the “bugbears” (if that’s what they are) are part of the plan somehow. Either they helped her build the dungeon, or she predicted some race would set up camp to XP-farm it, or something.

[diremage]

Realistically, if the Dark One succeeds on moving the gate once to prove that he's really a threat worth negotiating with, the other gods aren't going to wait for another Godsmoot, they're just going to start tearing the world down, starting with the goblins, and probably team up to stick TDO right in the middle of the Snarl while they do it.

Sure, they risk creating a second Snarl, but at that point they are already in immediate mortal peril (immortal peril?) and a second Snarl isn't going to make them any deader than the first one.

My money is on Durkon having a chance to explain to Redcloak, "Even if your plan goes off without a hitch, it's definitely going to kill your deity and every goblin you've ever met. The gods aren't really so attached to THIS world that they'd die for it rather than blowing it up and waiting to try again. Here is a better plan that gets you what you want."

[jwhouk]

My personal hypothesis is that the trick is that none of the doors lead to the gate, at least at first.

Serini put a hidden lever at the end of one or more doors, possibly all of them, and when all of them are pulled then a pathway to the gate opens. Combines rogueish thinking with dependence on physical might to defend the levers, and lives up to Serini being the voice of reason.

Better yet - you'd have to go through every door to finally activate the door that gets to the gate. Which, due to MITD's shenanigans, Team Xykon will probably never get the chance to do.

[KorvinStarmast]

My money is on Durkon having a chance to explain to Redcloak, "Even if your plan goes off without a hitch, it's definitely going to kill your deity and every goblin you've ever met. The gods aren't really so attached to THIS world that they'd die for it rather than blowing it up and waiting to try again. Here is a better plan that gets you what you want." This is the conversation that book VII will be written to set up, about 2/3 of the way through the book. The outcome of that conversation and its ripple effects are what sews up the story.

[woweedd]

See, I think Sereni's dungeon is specialized, just as the others were: Why? Because it's not HER Gate, not really: It's Kraagor's. The whole thing was built as a tribute to a fallen friend. All the Scribblers specialized in one thing above all else, and, to some extent, believed their methods superiors to all others: For Lirian, it was nature. Dorukan had arcane magic, Soon had the honor of a paladin, Girard had illusions/misdirection/paranoia, and Kraagor? Brute strength. She built it to extoll what he thought was the best, just as the others did theirs: Making the solution anything other then a straight-forward, brute force, boss rush would defeat the whole point. I'd wager this will lead to its downfall, just as it did with the others: Lirian's gate was destroyed by the combo of a lich, something completely unnatural she had no way to combat, and a forest fire, a destructive aspect of the nature she held dear. Dorukan, believing in arcane might, got out-arcane-mighted by Xykon's brute force, and, later, his Gate was destroyed by a bumbling idiot acting at random, the opposite of the intelligence he took such pride in. Soon believed in the unbreakable honor of a Paladin: His Gate was destroyed by a former Paladin. Girard didn't trust anyone outside his family: this left them easy pickings for V's uber-spell. Plus, any creature immune to illusions, like undead, could waltz right through either way. And Kraagor: Now, his defense does have the doors, which adds an extra wrinkle: That said, it would be destroyed fairly quick and easy under the current circumstance: Xykon is one of the most powerful beings in the known multiverse, it should barely slow him down. Heck, if anything, it makes him stronger over time, since he's gaining XP and provisions with every fight, and he's still of a high-level that nothing in the can pose a serious threat. Sure, for a non-Epic level being, it would be deadly. But for someone like Xykon, all he has to do is keep going and he'll find it, inevitably. Except...For the trump card: MITD, the very embodiment of brute force, possibly THE most physically powerful creature we've seen in comic, who is tricking Xykon into missing the right entrance. A monster (Lirian) of great physical power (Kraggor) who, thanks to the honor of a paladin (Soon), is using deception (Girard) to foil his plan. All their powers did come together...after a fashion.

[KorvinStarmast]

Except...For the trump card: MITD, the very embodiment of brute force, possibly THE most physically powerful creature we've seen in comic, who is tricking Xykon into missing the right entrance. A monster (Lirian) of great physical power (Kraggor) who, thanks to the honor of a paladin (Soon), is using deception (Girard) to foil his plan. All their powers did come together...after a fashion. If you could somehow fold in arcane magic(Dorukan) that would be a cool wrap upt. (MiTD has manifested some arcane powers: earth quake spell/or S ability, teleport, a few others.

Also:
:mitd: What gate?

[RatElemental]

I'm getting flashbacks to the theories about MitD being Serini who is either obfuscating stupidity or lost her memory or reincarnated.

[diremage]

Calling Mr. Checkhov, you seem to have left a firearm in the lobby.

https://www.myth-weavers.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=86889&stc=1&d=1563482456

[Goblin_Priest]

First, there’s no reason to assume the Order will arrive in time to stop the Plan. Watching a god-killing abomination go to town on some of the complacent higher-ups might introduce some tension to the climax of the story. I assume there’s a reason Rich came up with art designs for all those gods, most of whom had only 1 or 2 lines — we have to know what the gods look like for later.

Second, it’s a good bet that Serini the Rogue is engaging in information control. After all, she took the trouble to encode her diary (presumably because she knew someone would read it eventually). Has she taken any other steps? I don’t know.

What I really want to be true is that the “bugbears” (if that’s what they are) are part of the plan somehow. Either they helped her build the dungeon, or she predicted some race would set up camp to XP-farm it, or something.

The bigger question is: why write that diary to begin with? Sounds rather foolish.

And then: how'd it fall into Xykon's hands?

[diremage]

The bigger question is: why write that diary to begin with? Sounds rather foolish.


Addiction. Catharsis. To ease, for only a few moments, the trembling of her hands. To pour her soul out to the silent paper that will never judge her. To confess in secret to those passions she would never voice.


And then: how'd it fall into Xykon's hands?


I think Dorukan had it? Something like that.

[Ruck]

Except...For the trump card: MITD, the very embodiment of brute force, possibly THE most physically powerful creature we've seen in comic, who is tricking Xykon into missing the right entrance. A monster (Lirian) of great physical power (Kraggor) who, thanks to the honor of a paladin (Soon), is using deception (Girard) to foil his plan. All their powers did come together...after a fashion.

Okay, I'm intrigued by this idea. I'm not sure exactly how it plays out, but I like the explanation of how everything could tie together.


I think Dorukan had it? Something like that.

Nah, Xykon had it well before he confronted Dorukan and took over his dungeon. That's why it was in the tower Team Evil occupied before they took over Dorukan's place.

[woweedd]

If you could somehow fold in arcane magic(Dorukan) that would be a cool wrap upt. (MiTD has manifested some arcane powers: earth quake spell/or S ability, teleport, a few others.

Also:
:mitd: What gate?
Most likely, yeah.

[Dungeon-noob]

Why would she want it to be obvious to anyone, though? The Gates are not meant to be accessed. Their only purpose is to help hold the world together. The Scribblers also pretty much kept to the information blackout, not telling anyone about the Gates or their defenses except to a select few who were explicitly and inherently involved in helping guard the Gates. The only reason Xykon and Redcloak even know about the dungeons at Kraagor's Gate is because they had Serini's diary, which we can safely assume was never meant to be read by anyone but Serini, and she had the true coordinates for Girard's Gate, so there's no reason to think that she was hiding or obfuscating anything.

And that's not to mention how bad an idea leaving it effectively unguarded would be. Any random adventuring party, on finding a mountain full of hundreds of dungeons with unimaginably powerful creatures with a statue right outside, would check the statue first thing, which immediately destroys the entire purpose of a defense to start with.
Darn it, i hate it when other people shoot my ideas down with actually good and factual arguments :smallwink:

I guess you're right, though my gut feeling is still on the combination of intelligence management and (decoy) brute force protection. What i've seen from Sereni doesn't feel like she'd leave out what she thought was best, especially when it doesn't need to conflict with honoring Kraagor. Every other gate was also protected with the specialty means of the protecting class.

[Cazero]

Every other gate was also protected with the specialty means of the protecting class.
The speciality means of the Rogue class are backstabbing and dodging. The bluffing part is an optional skill, like the lockpicking, the trap finding, and the ability to use magic items supposedly reserved for other classes like wands. And Rogues may have more skill points than most other classes, but they have an even wider skill selection to content with. Haley obviously choose to max her Bluff skill due to her upbringing, but we have no reason (yet) to assume Serini did the same choice. From the little we've seen of her, it seems to me that she would rather max out her Persuasion and/or Diplomacy skill.

[woweedd]

The speciality means of the Rogue class are backstabbing and dodging. The bluffing part is an optional skill, like the lockpicking, the trap finding, and the ability to use magic items supposedly reserved for other classes like wands. And Rogues may have more skill points than most other classes, but they have an even wider skill selection to content with. Haley obviously choose to max her Bluff skill due to her upbringing, but we have no reason (yet) to assume Serini did the same choice. From the little we've seen of her, it seems to me that she would rather max out her Persuasion and/or Diplomacy skill.
Indeed. Especially because we do know a member of The Scribblers who was obsessed with deception: his name was Girard.

[Rrmcklin]

Darn it, i hate it when other people shoot my ideas down with actually good and factual arguments :smallwink:

I guess you're right, though my gut feeling is still on the combination of intelligence management and (decoy) brute force protection. What i've seen from Sereni doesn't feel like she'd leave out what she thought was best, especially when it doesn't need to conflict with honoring Kraagor. Every other gate was also protected with the specialty means of the protecting class.

What have we seen of Sereni to make you feel that way? The point may have been made repeatedly, but what differs about this Gate is that it was specifically intended to be how Kraagor would do it, not Sereni, herself.

That's a key a difference here, and while I haven't totally ruled out any tricks, that statement just can't be ignored just because Sereni was a Rogue herself. This one isn't supposed to be about her, even if she's the one making it.

[Squire Doodad]

Serini probably has a trick up her sleeve, but there's little to suggest what exactly it is aside from "she is a rogue".

What weapon did Serini use again?

[RatElemental]

Serini probably has a trick up her sleeve, but there's little to suggest what exactly it is aside from "she is a rogue".

What weapon did Serini use again?

Looks like she used a shortbow.

[Squire Doodad]

Looks like she used a shortbow.

So if you play with the whole weapon type thing, she technically could be that badass elderly lady who keeps a shotgun in her vault and has a trained and remarkably fluffy guard doberman or something.

[Goblin_Priest]

See, I think Sereni's dungeon is specialized, just as the others were: Why? Because it's not HER Gate, not really: It's Kraagor's. The whole thing was built as a tribute to a fallen friend. All the Scribblers specialized in one thing above all else, and, to some extent, believed their methods superiors to all others: For Lirian, it was nature. Dorukan had arcane magic, Soon had the honor of a paladin, Girard had illusions/misdirection/paranoia, and Kraagor? Brute strength. She built it to extoll what he thought was the best, just as the others did theirs: Making the solution anything other then a straight-forward, brute force, boss rush would defeat the whole point. I'd wager this will lead to its downfall, just as it did with the others: Lirian's gate was destroyed by the combo of a lich, something completely unnatural she had no way to combat, and a forest fire, a destructive aspect of the nature she held dear. Dorukan, believing in arcane might, got out-arcane-mighted by Xykon's brute force, and, later, his Gate was destroyed by a bumbling idiot acting at random, the opposite of the intelligence he took such pride in. Soon believed in the unbreakable honor of a Paladin: His Gate was destroyed by a former Paladin. Girard didn't trust anyone outside his family: this left them easy pickings for V's uber-spell. Plus, any creature immune to illusions, like undead, could waltz right through either way. And Kraagor: Now, his defense does have the doors, which adds an extra wrinkle: That said, it would be destroyed fairly quick and easy under the current circumstance: Xykon is one of the most powerful beings in the known multiverse, it should barely slow him down. Heck, if anything, it makes him stronger over time, since he's gaining XP and provisions with every fight, and he's still of a high-level that nothing in the can pose a serious threat. Sure, for a non-Epic level being, it would be deadly. But for someone like Xykon, all he has to do is keep going and he'll find it, inevitably. Except...For the trump card: MITD, the very embodiment of brute force, possibly THE most physically powerful creature we've seen in comic, who is tricking Xykon into missing the right entrance. A monster (Lirian) of great physical power (Kraggor) who, thanks to the honor of a paladin (Soon), is using deception (Girard) to foil his plan. All their powers did come together...after a fashion.

The issue with this is that every other gate was designed by those people themselves. This gate might have been built in honor of Kraggor, but it wasn't built by him.

In the end of the day, Serini might have made something with a barbarian in mind, but she simply wasn't a barbarian herself, and lacked the abilities of a barbarian. He abilities to mimic a barbarian have their limits.

Furthermore, she is distinct from the others, who built their gates with no solidarity left, while she built hers precisely out of solidarity. The others thought their way was best, and built defenses focused on their way exclusively. Serini did not. There's no reason she would handicap herself as the others have, because she never displayed their hubris.

A surprise is certain to be in stores. But it's hard to say what it will be. This gate will certainly have something special, though.

And I have a hard time guesstimating what the odds of it reusing old twists are, such as "the shell game" and "hiding in plain sight". On one hand, re-using these could come off as stale. On the other, these could be foreshadowing elements. They would seem too blatant to be foreshadowing, though.

[Rrmcklin]

The issue with this is that every other gate was designed by those people themselves. This gate might have been built in honor of Kraggor, but it wasn't built by him.

In the end of the day, Serini might have made something with a barbarian in mind, but she simply wasn't a barbarian herself, and lacked the abilities of a barbarian. He abilities to mimic a barbarian have their limits.


Kraggor's thing of "overwhelming brute force" is an incredibly simple concept, that I find it doubtful Serini could not understand just because she wasn't actually a Barbarian.

[Squire Doodad]

Kraggor's thing of "overwhelming brute force" is an incredibly simple concept, that I find it doubtful Serini could not understand just because she wasn't actually a Barbarian.

There's a difference between overwhelming brute force to smash your opponents quickly and overwhelming brute force to outlast your opponents. Not a big difference, of course, but the subtle nuances are there.

[jwhouk]

What if the brute Force thing was just a facade for Kraagor?

[Squire Doodad]

What if the brute Force thing was just a facade for Kraagor?

He could be a more tactical style fighter like Roy, but physical power is still one of his defining traits.

[Morquard]

What have we seen of Sereni to make you feel that way? The point may have been made repeatedly, but what differs about this Gate is that it was specifically intended to be how Kraagor would do it, not Sereni, herself.

That's a key a difference here, and while I haven't totally ruled out any tricks, that statement just can't be ignored just because Sereni was a Rogue herself. This one isn't supposed to be about her, even if she's the one making it.

The first trick of a con is making the mark think that they're playing a different game than they actually are. Calling it "Kraagor's Gate" instead of "Sereni's Gate" and making a huge statement of how she'll build it how he would have, brute force and all, to honor him, and then building it like that, is that. It makes everyone dismiss trickery, because what they see matches with what they expect.

When the Order went for Girard's gate, they had all the Illusion defeating spells prepared, because they were expecting that. Here, at "Kraagor's" Gate, because even the name disguises that it was actually build by a Rogue, They won't scan every rock with Detect Magic and True Seeing.

Also don't forget where we got our information about Sereni's Gate from. From Shojo, who got it from Soon, who was, well to put it mildly, not on the best terms with the rest of the Scribblers. We know that at least one of them has fed him blatantly wrong information.

I'm not saying it's the statue, or that it's hidden in plain sight. I believe that the monsters and doors are a vital part of the defenses. I just think they're not the only one.

I mean, just look at it. Do you really think if Kraagor was in charge he would have build a multidimensional mountain (magic) around it, with tons and tons of doors (trickery/deception), each filled with tons of monsters that are strong enough to give an Epic Lich a challange (strength)? I don't think so. Maybe that last bit, yes, but not all of it.

But that's already 3 out of 6 "specialties". What we're missing for Scribbler bingo now are "Honor" and "Nature". Maybe the idea that the Bugbears aren't quite as evil as suggested has merit, but that seems unlikely, Oona was quite willing to murder Lien and O-Chul without a warning. Of course their "Oath" could have been to prevent anyone from getting too close (for Lien and O-Chul that was outright attack, for Redcloak and Xykon it's something else?). Again that seems unlikely. A second tribe, or a secret faction within it. Maybe they've been wiped out in the past.
Nature I'm also not sure. Maybe the treacherous terrain?
Sereni's "shtick" would have been "get everyone to work together" and that's exactly how she's protecting her gate, by combining everyone's strengths.

[Goblin_Priest]

Kraggor's thing of "overwhelming brute force" is an incredibly simple concept, that I find it doubtful Serini could not understand just because she wasn't actually a Barbarian.

Understanding one thing and being able to pull it off perfectly are two different things. Just about anyone can understand the concept of honor. But one would expect an epic paladin to be able to pull off a honor-based system of defense better than most.

Serini could very well understand the concept of "overwhelming brute force", but understanding it and possessing it aren't the same. If a defense of "overwhelming brute force" was to be made, one would expect an epic dwarf fighter to do it better than an epic halfling rogue. By all appearances, though, sure Serini appears to have pulled it off rather nicely. But, still, one would assume that Kraagor should have been able to do it better himself.

The others thought that *only* their way was good. Serini lacked their ego.


What if the brute Force thing was just a facade for Kraagor?

I fully expect this last gate to be better designed due to it being made by a rogue that lacked the bloated ego.

But then again, maybe I'm just desensitized, and I'm too used to the gate by now. Thinking about it, the huge number of fake doors is a roguish element in itself. If we consider the other gates, which were all incredibly straightforward, a gate designed solely by a barbarian in the same manner would probabably have had all of the toughest challenges in a single obvious dungeon. I've been expecting a twist contribution from the rogue, but now that I think about it, we've already seen a distinctively roguish defense mechanism.

After all, while I expect this gate to do better than the others, it still has to fail. Or at least, seems quite likely to fail. What kind of climax would we get if Team Evil never really get close to corrupting the final gate? Or if the Order's actions are irrelevant, because the gate is just too well designed? Team Evil's progress towards their objectives is required to maintain tension.

[Morquard]

After all, while I expect this gate to do better than the others, it still has to fail. Or at least, seems quite likely to fail. What kind of climax would we get if Team Evil never really get close to corrupting the final gate? Or if the Order's actions are irrelevant, because the gate is just too well designed? Team Evil's progress towards their objectives is required to maintain tension.

Seems we actually had very similar ideas just there. But you're right it got to fail, and likely just in the nick of time too. :D But also, it's already holding up longer than any of the others did. Lirian's Gate was destroyed within minutes after the Lichification was done. Dorukan was killed within minutes of leaving his castle (Yes, cracking the runes around the gate took longer, and he might have held out longer, if he had not left the safety of the castle, but the main defense was mostly "Dorukan, himself"). And Soon's Gate, well, fell in one day (that one actually faired best, without Miko...). As for Girard's Gate, it's hard to tell, but undead are immune to illusions, so he'd likely just would have straight up murdered everyone there.

[Squire Doodad]

After all, while I expect this gate to do better than the others, it still has to fail. Or at least, seems quite likely to fail. What kind of climax would we get if Team Evil never really get close to corrupting the final gate? Or if the Order's actions are irrelevant, because the gate is just too well designed? Team Evil's progress towards their objectives is required to maintain tension.

It'd be funny if the Order run in on Team Evil in the gate room and there's a little food platter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html) off to the side.
Pointless, maybe, but fun.

Actually, if Rich wanted to do a "final boss lair looks kinda like the first dungeon" bit then it could be Team Evil sitting in the lair like with Dorukan's Gate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html), though I'd imagine its just Team Evil and no minions.

[Ruck]

Honestly, given the time frame the rest of the comic is operating under, I wouldn't be surprised if this book ends with Team Evil finding the gate. The ritual still takes a few weeks, by our knowledge; and there are only a few weeks left in the year; and I don't think Belkar is going to die until the climax (and, aside, I don't think Sphinx Pox is going to come into play at all, unless it's to serve as another punchline).

[Squire Doodad]

Honestly, given the time frame the rest of the comic is operating under, I wouldn't be surprised if this book ends with Team Evil finding the gate. The ritual still takes a few weeks, by our knowledge; and there are only a few weeks left in the year; and I don't think Belkar is going to die until the climax (and, aside, I don't think Sphinx Pox is going to come into play at all, unless it's to serve as another punchline).

I imagine its something that will be used as a bonus punchline to fill in the time while the party is in transit or as they're leaving. Like someone saying how the party should eat some herb to cure sphinx pox and is baffled by the how the party couldn't have possibly noticed the telltale signs.

[Ruck]

I imagine its something that will be used as a bonus punchline to fill in the time while the party is in transit or as they're leaving. Like someone saying how the party should eat some herb to cure sphinx pox and is baffled by the how the party couldn't have possibly noticed the telltale signs.

I was imagining something where it's even less relevant. Like:

PANEL 1 (The Mechane)
ROY: We're getting close to Kraagor's Tomb. Everyone feeling better?
ELAN: Sure am! Rough break for us all to catch cold during the flight!
ROY: Good thing Durkon was able to prepare enough Remove Disease for everybody.
DURKON: Praise Thor!

PANEL 2 (Hel's domain)
HEL is watching the Order in her scrying pool, making the "shaking with anger" face.

PANEL 3 (The Mechane)
[continued action with the Order]

[Rrmcklin]

The first trick of a con is making the mark think that they're playing a different game than they actually are. Calling it "Kraagor's Gate" instead of "Sereni's Gate" and making a huge statement of how she'll build it how he would have, brute force and all, to honor him, and then building it like that, is that. It makes everyone dismiss trickery, because what they see matches with what they expect.

When the Order went for Girard's gate, they had all the Illusion defeating spells prepared, because they were expecting that. Here, at "Kraagor's" Gate, because even the name disguises that it was actually build by a Rogue, They won't scan every rock with Detect Magic and True Seeing.

Also don't forget where we got our information about Sereni's Gate from. From Shojo, who got it from Soon, who was, well to put it mildly, not on the best terms with the rest of the Scribblers. We know that at least one of them has fed him blatantly wrong information.

I'm not saying it's the statue, or that it's hidden in plain sight. I believe that the monsters and doors are a vital part of the defenses. I just think they're not the only one.

I mean, just look at it. Do you really think if Kraagor was in charge he would have build a multidimensional mountain (magic) around it, with tons and tons of doors (trickery/deception), each filled with tons of monsters that are strong enough to give an Epic Lich a challange (strength)? I don't think so. Maybe that last bit, yes, but not all of it.

But that's already 3 out of 6 "specialties". What we're missing for Scribbler bingo now are "Honor" and "Nature". Maybe the idea that the Bugbears aren't quite as evil as suggested has merit, but that seems unlikely, Oona was quite willing to murder Lien and O-Chul without a warning. Of course their "Oath" could have been to prevent anyone from getting too close (for Lien and O-Chul that was outright attack, for Redcloak and Xykon it's something else?). Again that seems unlikely. A second tribe, or a secret faction within it. Maybe they've been wiped out in the past.
Nature I'm also not sure. Maybe the treacherous terrain?
Sereni's "shtick" would have been "get everyone to work together" and that's exactly how she's protecting her gate, by combining everyone's strengths.

Okay, but do you have an actual, in story reason, to think it's a con? Again, "Serini is rogue" is not sufficient. And, also again, I'm not totally dismissive of there being more to the gate defense than we've seen. I am, however, wary of making fairly sweeping assumptions about a character we actually know very little about.. Because that's what many people, have been doing, and much of your post relies on that same faulty logic. Honestly, your post seems to be taking it for granted that your totally right about the whole "combine everyone's talents/principles" idea. That's not particularly helpful either.

As for what Kraagor himself would do, I don't know, because, like Serini herself, we basically know nothing about him. You don't have particularly strong grounds to argue that how she set this up would clash with how she handled it.

Regarding Soon''s breakdown with the others and how it might compromise his information, he wasn't on the best of terms with either Girard or Durukon, but nothing indicates that his relationship with Serini or Lirin was strained. That Girard, the man who was noted to be paranoid beyond belief lied to Soon, says nothing about what Serini would tell him.

[Jannoire]

We do know a few things about Serini. And one of that is that she would have loved for everyone to get along. After all, she was the one to settle the argument, she kept in touch with some of them, she was devastated because the order of the scribble wouldn't be adventuring together anymore.

Considering this, I find it highly likely she would employ more than just one security concept.

[Squire Doodad]

I was imagining something where it's even less relevant. Like:

PANEL 1 (The Mechane)
ROY: We're getting close to Kraagor's Tomb. Everyone feeling better?
ELAN: Sure am! Rough break for us all to catch cold during the flight!
ROY: Good thing Durkon was able to prepare enough Remove Disease for everybody.
DURKON: Praise Thor!

PANEL 2 (Hel's domain)
HEL is watching the Order in her scrying pool, making the "shaking with anger" face.

PANEL 3 (The Mechane)
[continued action with the Order]

Yes.
YES.
This is beautiful XD

[KorvinStarmast]

The first trick of a con is making the mark think that they're playing a different game than they actually are. Calling it "Kraagor's Gate" instead of "Sereni's Gate" and making a huge statement of how she'll build it how he would have, brute force and all, to honor him, and then building it like that, is that. It makes everyone dismiss trickery, because what they see matches with what they expect.{snip}
Sereni's "shtick" would have been "get everyone to work together" and that's exactly how she's protecting her gate, by combining everyone's strengths. That fits what little I have seen of Serini on the crayon strips.
I fully expect this last gate to be better designed due to it being made by a rogue that lacked the bloated ego. But at some point, wouldn't she have to fold in a "sneak attack, bitch!" or is that a purely Haley-ism?

We do know a few things about Serini. And one of that is that she would have loved for everyone to get along. After all, she was the one to settle the argument, she kept in touch with some of them, she was devastated because the order of the scribble wouldn't be adventuring together anymore.

Considering this, I find it highly likely she would employ more than just one security concept. Yeah, her crayon scenes suggest that.

I am going with a hypothesis someone suggested a few weeks back: Serini is still alive.

[Fish]

Okay, but do you have an actual, in story reason, to think it's a con? Again, "Serini is rogue" is not sufficient.
Not sufficient because ... you said so? On what basis did you determine this was insufficient? I can see only ipse dixit.

Now, I happen to agree with you that we have no evidence that it definitely is a con. For one thing, any double bluff relies on the mark knowing it’s called “Kraagor’s Gate” and who Kraagor was and what he stood for. In short, it relies on the Gate being breached by someone exactly like Xykon, who has Serini’s own diary but no other independent references. I wouldn’t put it past Serini (or Rich) that the diary is an elaborate honey trap, a quest seed to lure high-level adventurers, and she published dozens just for this purpose, but there’s no evidence for it.

The only motivation Serini needs is “I don’t want the world to blow up and I’m going to do everything I can to make sure it doesn’t.” The fact that she is a Rogue — and knew Kraagor, and wished to honor him — draws her abilities and her intent into some focus. Not very good focus, to be sure.

[Rrmcklin]

Not sufficient because ... you said so? On what basis did you determine this was insufficient? I can see only ipse dixit.

Now, I happen to agree with you that we have no evidence that it definitely is a con. For one thing, any double bluff relies on the mark knowing it’s called “Kraagor’s Gate” and who Kraagor was and what he stood for. In short, it relies on the Gate being breached by someone exactly like Xykon, who has Serini’s own diary but no other independent references. I wouldn’t put it past Serini (or Rich) that the diary is an elaborate honey trap, a quest seed to lure high-level adventurers, and she published dozens just for this purpose, but there’s no evidence for it.

The only motivation Serini needs is “I don’t want the world to blow up and I’m going to do everything I can to make sure it doesn’t.” The fact that she is a Rogue — and knew Kraagor, and wished to honor him — draws her abilities and her intent into some focus. Not very good focus, to be sure.

Well, I'd say it's not sufficient, because while this story does get a lot of measure out of class jokes, I think it's also fairly regular makes a point out of how knowing a character's class doesn't give you a ticket to know their entire characterization.

Going "Serini was a rogue, so there has to be some elaborated falsehood going here" strikes me as about the same as "Roy is a fighter, so he would definitely only use straight-forward tactics with no real thought put into them."

Something to keep in mind certainly, and I am keeping it in mind, but until we get better insight into the character, not something to be taken for granted like a lot of people keep doing.

Similar, arguments of "we know Serini was sad when they split up, so that means she's likely to try and mix the Gate will elements from all of them", while an interesting idea, is also not much grounds for as much certain as it's been talked about. At least not from how I think about things.

[Fish]

Well, I'd say it's not sufficient, because while this story does get a lot of measure out of class jokes, I think it's also fairly regular makes a point out of how knowing a character's class doesn't give you a ticket to know their entire characterization.

Going "Serini was a rogue, so there has to be some elaborated falsehood going here" strikes me as about the same as "Roy is a fighter, so he would definitely only use straight-forward tactics with no real thought put into them."

Something to keep in mind certainly, and I am keeping it in mind, but until we get better insight into the character, not something to be taken for granted like a lot of people keep doing..
I can respect that reasoning: that Serini’s class is not, itself, definitive proof that a particular approach must (or must not) be the one Serini used. It is suggestive, but that is all.

About all I can commit to is that Serini seemed to have a higher INT than Kraagor, and played a class with more skill points per level, so it’s virtually certain that Serini’s method won’t be exactly like Kraagor’s ... unless either a) she had reason to believe Kraagor’s method was better than her own; or b) she had unreasonable faith that following his method without embellishment stood the best chance of success. I can’t disprove (a), but I doubt (b), because it seems that brute force + cleverness ought to be better than brute force alone.

But as Xykon proved the brute force argument against Dorukan, maybe there’s something to be said for it.

[Rrmcklin]

I can respect that reasoning: that Serini’s class is not, itself, definitive proof that a particular approach must (or must not) be the one Serini used. It is suggestive, but that is all.

About all I can commit to is that Serini seemed to have a higher INT than Kraagor, and played a class with more skill points per level, so it’s virtually certain that Serini’s method won’t be exactly like Kraagor’s ... unless either a) she had reason to believe Kraagor’s method was better than her own; or b) she had unreasonable faith that following his method without embellishment stood the best chance of success. I can’t disprove (a), but I doubt (b), because it seems that brute force + cleverness ought to be better than brute force alone.

But as Xykon proved the brute force argument against Dorukan, maybe there’s something to be said for it.

That's fair enough. I just want to see more of the dungeon crawling and how that progresses to see any potential clues for extra trickery. Though, as Ruck said, I also wouldn't be particularly surprised if the next time we see that they've just found the Gate and are preparing for the ritual.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's fair enough. I just want to see more of the dungeon crawling and how that progresses to see any potential clues for extra trickery. Though, as Ruck said, I also wouldn't be particularly surprised if the next time we see that they've just found the Gate and are preparing for the ritual. Something to consider under the idea of Xykon and Reddie not finding the gate any time soon.

1. MiTD marked some extra doors
2. O'Chul saw him do it.
I conclude that a logical serial event set based on that is ...
3. O'Chul knows which doors were erroneously marked, and so there are a few pathways that the OoTS can take that the Xykon group did not and will not thanks to the scouting party of Lien / O'Chul doing their "observe the target area" thing.

Just a thought. Rich threw that in there -- MiTD marking extra doors -- for a reason.

[LadyEowyn]

Well, it shows that the MITD is now actively (and covertly) working against Team Evil, which is significant even if his efforts achieve nothing.

It may well have meaning beyond that, but it doesn’t have to.

[Squire Doodad]

Well, it shows that the MITD is now actively (and covertly) working against Team Evil, which is significant even if his efforts achieve nothing.

It may well have meaning beyond that, but it doesn’t have to.

Yeah, that's for the MitD thread.

I guess O-Chul has a map with all of the wrong doors marked?

[RatElemental]

Yeah, that's for the MitD thread.

I guess O-Chul has a map with all of the wrong doors marked?

At best he'd have a record of some of them. Team evil's been at this for a lot longer than the paladins have been watching them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

At best he'd have a record of some of them. Team evil's been at this for a lot longer than the paladins have been watching them.

You seem to be assuming that MitD marks a few extra doors every day, or at least regularly. I see no reason to assume anything other than he's only done it the one time it was depicted on panel.

Grey Wolf

[Jannoire]

I see no reason to not assume it didn't do this everytime it gets to mark the door.
And if in doubt, also go for the worse case, especially after Lien taught O-Chul about her pessimistic view.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I see no reason to not assume it didn't do this everytime it gets to mark the door.

I do see a reason: There must be a substantial amount of already marked doors before this can be done, or RC will notice that the number of doors marked is larger than the number of explorations that have been done.

Grey Wolf

[Jannoire]

I do see a reason: There must be a substantial amount of already marked doors before this can be done, or RC will notice that the number of doors marked is larger than the number of explorations that have been done.

Grey Wolf

While it certainly seems unwise to mark extra doors after the first encounter, we have no idea how long Team Evil has been doing dungeon crawls here. It might as well have been more than twenty rounds.
And since Xykon won't let Redcloak use this fancy thing called tactics, I guess Redcloak might as well stop counting.

[CriticalFailure]

I feel like Redcloak has marked off the number of doors attacked and the kind of challenges faced in some sort of tactical notebook that Xykon makes fun of him for keeping. Or something to that effect.

[RatElemental]

You seem to be assuming that MitD marks a few extra doors every day, or at least regularly. I see no reason to assume anything other than he's only done it the one time it was depicted on panel.

Grey Wolf

I make no such assumption, I just don't make the assumption he's only done it once. Thus, we (and O-Chul) cannot know if O-Chul has witnessed him marking all the doors he has falsely marked.

[KorvinStarmast]

I make no such assumption, I just don't make the assumption he's only done it once. Thus, we (and O-Chul) cannot know if O-Chul has witnessed him marking all the doors he has falsely marked.
I don't know if Lien and O'Chul have paper and writing tools to make sketches of what he views through his telescope. But they have time so O'Chul looking through the telescope and patiently describing to Lien what he sees, and her sketching out the lines of doors - both x'd off and not x'd off - is not beyond their skill as a special ops recon team. Their whole job is Observation. :smallsmile: (If you've ever sat in an OP for a couple of days ... )

And while I think that O'Chul likes to play Go, he could also use the go stones as a way to mark out black for marked doors and white for unmarked doors, in rows, if they don't have writing material with them. (But I get the idea he brought it to play with ...)

[Squire Doodad]

I make no such assumption, I just don't make the assumption he's only done it once. Thus, we (and O-Chul) cannot know if O-Chul has witnessed him marking all the doors he has falsely marked.

Yeah, pretty much all that is being assumed is that if O-Chul has a map of marked doors, he also has marked the ones MitD falsely marked in a different color.

[Fish]

What if ... the marked doors are in some Go pattern?

[Squire Doodad]

What if ... the marked doors are in some Go pattern?

Of course! It all makes sense now!
That said, RC would be looking for that, so a Chess technique would work better.

[RatElemental]

I don't know if Lien and O'Chul have paper and writing tools to make sketches of what he views through his telescope. But they have time so O'Chul looking through the telescope and patiently describing to Lien what he sees, and her sketching out the lines of doors - both x'd off and not x'd off - is not beyond their skill as a special ops recon team. Their whole job is Observation. :smallsmile: (If you've ever sat in an OP for a couple of days ... )

And while I think that O'Chul likes to play Go, he could also use the go stones as a way to mark out black for marked doors and white for unmarked doors, in rows, if they don't have writing material with them. (But I get the idea he brought it to play with ...)

The problem is not the ability to write, it's that a lot of doors were marked when they got there already, and they have no idea which ones Team Evil actually explored or not.

[Schroeswald]

The problem is not the ability to write, it's that a lot of doors were marked when they got there already, and they have no idea which ones Team Evil actually explored or not.

But they can know a few of them, which is definitely an advantage over Xykon if they search those caves.

[Squire Doodad]

But they can know a few of them, which is definitely an advantage over Xykon if they search those caves.

Of course, once they have the Order and maybe the Mechane crew for supporting fire (assuming they got their ballistas reattached) then the logical solution is to have the 8+ man team go and attack Xykon. Finding the gate isn't as important as eliminating Xykon and recruiting RC. As such, they would go to the doors that haven't been marked at all so as to intercept Xykon en route to the gate. On the other hand, if all of the gates have been marked "somehow", then the Order is now at a major advantage because they can check which ones were not explored.

[Morquard]

How would checking those doors help them? All they would do is weaken the defenses of the actual gate, and whatever they can mount is likely less effective than whats already there atm.

Until they convince Redcloak to help them, their best bet is to not let Team Evil get to the gate. And once/if they get Redcloak to help, they'll have to deal with Xykon first, because you can bet your ass, he won't be ok with it.

[Squire Doodad]

How would checking those doors help them? All they would do is weaken the defenses of the actual gate, and whatever they can mount is likely less effective than whats already there atm.

Until they convince Redcloak to help them, their best bet is to not let Team Evil get to the gate. And once/if they get Redcloak to help, they'll have to deal with Xykon first, because you can bet your ass, he won't be ok with it.

Come to think of it, waiting until Xykon just got after the day ended would be better. A Lich Sorcerer missing a couple spell slots and a half drained Cleric is much easier than running into them at full power. That said, the nature of the narrative would suggest that running into a cave to fight Xykon will just be more likely because its more entertaining. Then again, the Order has shown Decent Logic (tm) on other occasions...

[RatElemental]

Come to think of it, waiting until Xykon just got after the day ended would be better. A Lich Sorcerer missing a couple spell slots and a half drained Cleric is much easier than running into them at full power. That said, the nature of the narrative would suggest that running into a cave to fight Xykon will just be more likely because its more entertaining. Then again, the Order has shown Decent Logic (tm) on other occasions...

Easy to split the difference. The order plans to ambush team evil as they come out of a door but have to throw that plan out the window when it turns out team evil have found the gate and they need to rush in there and stop them.

[Squire Doodad]

Easy to split the difference. The order plans to ambush team evil as they come out of a door but have to throw that plan out the window when it turns out team evil have found the gate and they need to rush in there and stop them.

I wonder how they'd be able to tell that Team Evil found the gate though

[RatElemental]

I wonder how they'd be able to tell that Team Evil found the gate though

By telling them they've been in the current door for over a day, I imagine.

[CriticalFailure]

What will O'Chul and Lien do if Team Evil finds the gate before the Order arrive? Xykon and Redcloak low on spell slots are more vulnerable than usual, but Oona alone seemed to challenge them, and even low on spells Xykon and Redcloak are many levels above the pair.

[Jasdoif]

I wonder how they'd be able to tell that Team Evil found the gate thoughBy telling them they've been in the current door for over a day, I imagine.That's what they're thinking, yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html)

[jwhouk]

Yet another idea that may be not so far off:

What if there is no gate at Kraagor's Tomb?

Think on this: the tomb itself is a monument to strength, but it was designed by a rogue (Serini). The ultimate deception would be that the Tomb itself is not the gate - as in, there's no room with a gate like in Lirian or Girard's gates. The Tomb is simply a cover for the access portal or other means of transport to the true location of the gate - which is completely elsewhere in the OotS world.

Say, perhaps... the South Pole?

[Schroeswald]

Yet another idea that may be not so far off:

What if there is no gate at Kraagor's Tomb?

Think on this: the tomb itself is a monument to strength, but it was designed by a rogue (Serini). The ultimate deception would be that the Tomb itself is not the gate - as in, there's no room with a gate like in Lirian or Girard's gates. The Tomb is simply a cover for the access portal or other means of transport to the true location of the gate - which is completely elsewhere in the OotS world.

Say, perhaps... the South Pole?

You'd think Soon would know where the gate is, and Girard and Dorukan wouldn't be willing to let Serini decide
http://i.imgur.com/gErDQTr.png Hey! Lets make our memorial to Kraagor in the South! For secrety reasons!

[Peelee]

Yet another idea that may be not so far off:

What if there is no gate at Kraagor's Tomb?

Think on this: the tomb itself is a monument to strength, but it was designed by a rogue (Serini). The ultimate deception would be that the Tomb itself is not the gate - as in, there's no room with a gate like in Lirian or Girard's gates. The Tomb is simply a cover for the access portal or other means of transport to the true location of the gate - which is completely elsewhere in the OotS world.

Say, perhaps... the South Pole?

Why would she lie in her diary, which had all the other gate locations accurately listed? It's not as if she expected anyone would read it.

[Schroeswald]

Why would she lie in her diary, which had all the other gate locations accurately listed? It's not as if she expected anyone would read it.

Girard's Gate was under the correct coordinates and she and Girard lied about that one to Soon.

[factotum]

Why would she lie in her diary, which had all the other gate locations accurately listed? It's not as if she expected anyone would read it.

Not to mention a couple of other points:

a) We've already had one misdirection of a gate not being where it was expected to be, it would be unlikely for the Giant to pull that trick again.
b) Soon may not be the brightest candle in the box, but I think even he would notice if the listed location of Kraagor's Gate was at the opposite end of the planet from where he knows it to be.

[Peelee]

Girard's Gate was under the correct coordinates and she and Girard lied about that one to Soon.

She didn't lie to Soon, Girard did. We have no reason to believe she even knew about that.

[SlashDash]

a) We've already had one misdirection of a gate not being where it was expected to be, it would be unlikely for the Giant to pull that trick again.

Except that he kind of does all the time.
In fact that characters laugh about it.

Like Haley claiming she didn't realize Elan was Nale, so she didn't expect Greg to be impersonating Durkon as they already went that route.

Or Durkon twice already tricking a bad guy into falling for his traps by telling them he is luring them for a trap with both his mom's memory and the tea time thing.



That being said, I think if the gate isn't under any of the doors, then what the MITD does is kind of meaningless.

All it does is tell us the viewers that the monster is not really on team evil side anymore, but we the viewers already know that since he stopped Xykon from killing the OotS.

So whatever the defense is, I definitely think the doors are involved.

I also considered the statue... But come on, it's too obvious.



Back to the doors issue, I think it's not likely that the actual dungeon behind the door is an issue, because if it's enough to give team evil a challenge there's 0 percent chance the OotS will survive down there.

I think that maybe the doors themselves are key. And that maybe there's some sort of riddle or whatever one could solve by examining them?

The MITD marking the doors means that there is little point for team evil to examine them. Thus they can't have all the pieces to the puzzle.

But if the gang show up and start looking into the one's that team evil skipped, they might find some sort of clue.

[Ruck]

Girard's Gate was under the correct coordinates and she and Girard lied about that one to Soon.

Girard lied to Soon. Serini's diary contained the correct coordinates, as evidenced by Xykon teleporting directly there.

[Squire Doodad]

Yet another idea that may be not so far off:

What if there is no gate at Kraagor's Tomb?

Think on this: the tomb itself is a monument to strength, but it was designed by a rogue (Serini). The ultimate deception would be that the Tomb itself is not the gate - as in, there's no room with a gate like in Lirian or Girard's gates. The Tomb is simply a cover for the access portal or other means of transport to the true location of the gate - which is completely elsewhere in the OotS world.

Say, perhaps... the South Pole?

From a Doylist point of view, that would require the party to fly all the way to the South Pole over the course of at least a week while Xykon can get there somewhere from instantly to two days (Xykon could cover from Azure City to Girard's Gate, so I guess that means he should be able to reach the South Pole from the north one in 2-4 castings).
Unless there's a warp in the "gate room" that would transport everyone there, I don't really see the gate secretly being in the South Pole doing much aside from stretching out the story.

[drazen]

Personally, i think that if there is a twist to the last gate's defenses (i can't tell what with the writing of the Giant catching me of guard often enough), that it's going to be that the entire dungeon and tribute to might is a diversion, with the real gate hidden somewhere else, probably in plain sight. The statue to Kraagor is my current guess, but we haven't seen the area all that well for that guess to be any good. It would fit with a rogue to rely on stealth and information control to defend a gate, rather then pure might that can be bypassed by a sufficiently powerfull or clever opponent (like a rogue would well know, often being said opponent).

I would also guess that there would be an "obvious" element to it, that would stand out to someone friendly and upbeat like Sereni, but that would elude most grumpier or less nice people, like most villians she'd be guarding the gate from. What said element would be i can't even guess at though.

If we go by tropes alone, my money is on the statue being Kraagor's sacrifice -- he was turned to stone when they sealed the rift, and his stoned body IS the gate.

Instead of the ritual, I expect Xykon to blast the statue and then for something unexpected to happen; Durkon telling Thor about the planet in the rift is information that may make its way to the other gods soon. Or if the godsmoot is stuck in suspension, with the dwarves indefinitely postponing the Council of Clans, they might not be able to call another vote to destroy the world? It would be the most frustrating way to rules-lawyer it for them, after all.

[Ruck]

I'm still putting my money on "the Gate is really where Serini said it was" over any theories about it being somewhere completely undefended, especially Kraagor's statue.

[SlashDash]

I'm still putting my money on "the Gate is really where Serini said it was" over any theories about it being somewhere completely undefended, especially Kraagor's statue.

Yeah, I mean why would she write down the wrong coordinates just for her own gate but would put the right one for everyone else?

[Snails]

Yeah, I mean why would she write down the wrong coordinates just for her own gate but would put the right one for everyone else?

IMHO that speaks volumes about who she was. Serini's notable feature is not that she is a rogue. Her notable feature is that she and Kraagor were two very decent human(oid) beings who held the team together by their winning personalities. Writing this stuff down makes her a bad at being a rogue but being good at being Serini.

"No matter what she said about honoring Kraagor to Kraagor's personal friends, remember she is a rogue first" is a very weak argument IMO.

[Schroeswald]

IMHO that speaks volumes about who she was. Serini's notable feature is not that she is a rogue. Her notable feature is that she and Kraagor were two very decent human(oid) beings who held the team together by their winning personalities. Writing this stuff down makes her a bad at being a rogue but being good at being Serini.

"No matter what she said about honoring Kraagor to Kraagor's personal friends, remember she is a rogue first" is a very weak argument IMO.
I agree, I'd argue that even though my theory contains pieces of respect for her other teammates, its still primarily that she is respecting Kraagor who sacrificed his existence to seal the rifts, she just also respected her other teamates enough to build a strategy that used theirs, also, we've already had a trickery gate, why have another?

[Peelee]

Writing this stuff down makes her a bad at being a rogue but being good at being Serini.

I just wanted to chime in that I love this. To steal (and Paraphrase) from a Star Wars review, if you can't describe a character without saying what they looked like or what their job was, it's not a good character. Her character defines her class, not the other way around.

[Ruck]

Yeah, I mean why would she write down the wrong coordinates just for her own gate but would put the right one for everyone else?

And also, I haven't been convinced that any of the "The gate's not actually in the dungeon" ideas are better defenses for the gate than "The gate is in the dungeon."

[TheNecrocomicon]

It could just be neither the dungeons nor the statue. Remember the discussion back at Azure City, where the Order saw at least partially through Redcloak's "shuffle" tactic to realize that all of the visible Xykons were fake? Something about the true goal of a hustle being that the person playing it doesn't realize the crucial piece is up the dealer's sleeve the entire time, or something similar.

I don't think the statue is the Gate, since as people have amply pointed out, it's extremely vulnerable to random attack. If it is there, it would have to be made of much sterner stuff -- probably magically reinforced to a "Xykon's phylactery" sort of ridiculous degree -- than any of the easily-destroyed Gates seen so far.

I also don't think that the dungeons lead to the Gate either, as even with hundreds or thousands of decoy passages, you're risking someone lucking upon the right entrance by sheer fluke and powering their way through in no time. (And the bugbear clan farming the dungeon has had a lot of time.)

Bear in mind that the canyon landscape that contains Kraagor's Tomb is explicitly said to be built up out of multidimensional stone. That means that the original ground surface is buried, perhaps quite deeply, under all of that. The rift and the gate surrounding it might once have been at ground level, but now could be completely sealed under and within a thick layer of the same stone, which if I recall, should be able to block divinations, detections and true-seeing magic. Perhaps the statue merely marks the point on the surface that is directly above the Gate itself, so that someone who knows what to look for won't completely forget where it truly lies.

[CriticalFailure]

It could just be neither the dungeons nor the statue. Remember the discussion back at Azure City, where the Order saw at least partially through Redcloak's "shuffle" tactic to realize that all of the visible Xykons were fake? Something about the true goal of a hustle being that the person playing it doesn't realize the crucial piece is up the dealer's sleeve the entire time, or something similar.

I don't think the statue is the Gate, since as people have amply pointed out, it's extremely vulnerable to random attack. If it is there, it would have to be made of much sterner stuff -- probably magically reinforced to a "Xykon's phylactery" sort of ridiculous degree -- than any of the easily-destroyed Gates seen so far.

I also don't think that the dungeons lead to the Gate either, as even with hundreds or thousands of decoy passages, you're risking someone lucking upon the right entrance by sheer fluke and powering their way through in no time. (And the bugbear clan farming the dungeon has had a lot of time.)

Bear in mind that the canyon landscape that contains Kraagor's Tomb is explicitly said to be built up out of multidimensional stone. That means that the original ground surface is buried, perhaps quite deeply, under all of that. The rift and the gate surrounding it might once have been at ground level, but now could be completely sealed under and within a thick layer of the same stone, which if I recall, should be able to block divinations, detections and true-seeing magic. Perhaps the statue merely marks the point on the surface that is directly above the Gate itself, so that someone who knows what to look for won't completely forget where it truly lies.

Yeah that's why I think that the gate is just encased in multidimensional stone. It's not obvious, like being behind one of the doors, but it's also not an "obvious trick spot" like in the statue. It's just some anonymous place under the hill. In terms of Kraagar's belief in physical might, it will both take a sh*tload of physical power to crack the stone and get to it, and depending on how it is set up it may be impossible to do without loosing all of the monsters from all the holes on those who try to access it. If this is actually the case (the fact that I think this will happen leads me to believe that this theory must be false) I would guess that MiTD's ability to seemingly cause minor earthquakes with a stomp and Redcloak's access to the earthquake spell could both potentially allow Team Evil to access the Gate and Xykon has plenty of destructive spells that could also probably do it if directed towards that goal. Though I would guess putting way too many monsters to deal with at once on top of it would be designed to discourage anyone from actually destroying the stone the gate is buried in - it's the perfect trick.

[Squire Doodad]

Yeah that's why I think that the gate is just encased in multidimensional stone. It's not obvious, like being behind one of the doors, but it's also not an "obvious trick spot" like in the statue. It's just some anonymous place under the hill. In terms of Kraagar's belief in physical might, it will both take a sh*tload of physical power to crack the stone and get to it, and depending on how it is set up it may be impossible to do without loosing all of the monsters from all the holes on those who try to access it. If this is actually the case (the fact that I think this will happen leads me to believe that this theory must be false) I would guess that MiTD's ability to seemingly cause minor earthquakes with a stomp and Redcloak's access to the earthquake spell could both potentially allow Team Evil to access the Gate and Xykon has plenty of destructive spells that could also probably do it if directed towards that goal. Though I would guess putting way too many monsters to deal with at once on top of it would be designed to discourage anyone from actually destroying the stone the gate is buried in - it's the perfect trick.

It could be that if you unearth the statue, you have a vague piece of instructions that tell you where to look.

This, of course, just leads you to the room filled with hordes of [what you think MitD is here].

[Goblin_Priest]

And also, I haven't been convinced that any of the "The gate's not actually in the dungeon" ideas are better defenses for the gate than "The gate is in the dungeon."

In a way. But in a way, also not.

Say you've got something extremely valuable, such as a hugeass diamond. Where do you put it? In the big fancy expensive safe you've got, or elsewhere?

Sure, if the safe's a ploy, you can trick would-be thieves and keep the prize safe from them. But if you do that, then it remains that the prize is hidden in a location with far lesser protections, which then increases the odds of someone finding it my sheer luck. Do you really want to place it somewhere where a large beast traveling through could accidentally break it, and all of existence along with it? All while you've spent billions (figurative) for this outerwordly safe that's not actually protecting anything?

The shell game con makes sense because it costs just about nothing. But there comes a point of diminishing returns, where if you spend too much into the diversion, it stops making sense to not actually use it.

[jwhouk]

There is the possibility that Serini did the one thing the others didn't - combine their powers to seal Kraagor's gate.

Illusions, Magic, Nature, Strength, Deception.

[Schroeswald]

There is the possibility that Serini did the one thing the others didn't - combine their powers to seal Kraagor's gate.

Illusions, Magic, Nature, Strength, Deception.
Is that not what I said? I thought I just included details on how exactly the defenses could work.

[CriticalFailure]

Serini may have told all of the others that their defenses were so great she wanted them to contribute, leading to a gate with all combined defenses. However, this seems a bit unlikely given that Soon's gate's big thing was its order of paladins and it's unlikely that there are any paladins or any other particularly honorable sorts camping out around the gate.

[Ruck]

In a way. But in a way, also not.

Say you've got something extremely valuable, such as a hugeass diamond. Where do you put it? In the big fancy expensive safe you've got, or elsewhere?

Sure, if the safe's a ploy, you can trick would-be thieves and keep the prize safe from them. But if you do that, then it remains that the prize is hidden in a location with far lesser protections, which then increases the odds of someone finding it my sheer luck. Do you really want to place it somewhere where a large beast traveling through could accidentally break it, and all of existence along with it? All while you've spent billions (figurative) for this outerwordly safe that's not actually protecting anything?

The shell game con makes sense because it costs just about nothing. But there comes a point of diminishing returns, where if you spend too much into the diversion, it stops making sense to not actually use it.

I'm unclear what the "also not" is, then, since this is exactly what I'm saying.

I also remember these same arguments being made about Girard's Gate not actually being inside the pyramid, and the same reasoning applies here.