Is this a fair challenge?

[regie]

I have a group of 5 lvl.2 new players. Last week they faced an ogre(challenge 2) it took them 3 hours, all the wizards spell slots, and the barbarian getting knocked out twice before I was taken down.
My players were not very happy and asked me to make the challenges easier.:smallconfused:

I might not have taken to account that they are new players, but I didn't think it would be that big of a challenge. we are playing "Lost Mines Of Phandalin" and I'm just following the script.
Next week they will face a Nothic also an lvl.2 challenge. This encounter is not supposed to become a battle, but knowing half my group are murder hobos I will prepare for a fight anyways. Even though I try to defuse tense situations, it often ends with a fight.

Encounter calculations say that it should be an easy challenge. I will propably have them level up before the encounter just in case. I don't mind making it a little easier, but I also don't want to rewrite the whole thing with only goblins, etc.. I want them to have fun and not take away their fighting spirit.:smallsmile:

What's your opinion? Is the nothic a fair challenge? should I have them level up beforehand?

[Kane0]

Yes, the calculator lists it as an easy challenge, however the calculator does not take into account variables like terrain, positioning, initiative, environmental hazards, the state of the player, etc

Also note that ogres hit once for big damage unlike most other critters around the same level, and each PC that goes down significantly changes the odds because of action economy.

It's a fair challenge, but there's more to it than that.

Edit: Also you may want to take note of future encounters like the Skull, Necromancer and Dragon. Reading the room is more important than reading the script.

[Sigreid]

I would be interested to hear how the fight went down as a bog standard ogre should only really take a few hits to go down and their ac isn't really high.

I think that being new players they didn't know how to use what they got.

[Trickery]

As others have said, it's the variables that make or break a fight. It's less about the monster than it is about how you use it and what the players do. Tucker's Kobolds is such a popular story because it demonstrates that.

I personally had a GM one time who liked to throw random encounters at us constantly while traveling. It was always bandits or some random creatures worth nothing in terms of experience. But the encounters were difficult because the creatures always surprised us, always surrounded us, and always focused on the weakest targets first. Was that fair? No, it wasn't. But it does demonstrate the point - that CR means far less than tactics.

If you want to make a fight easier, see if you can tweak it in such a way that the players get an idea of what they're walking into and might get the drop on it if they're paying attention. That's what I personally would do. Nobody but you can tell you how best to do that - it's your campaign.

[OverLordOcelot]

It's a light challenge, the party probably is just really bad at playing the game (or is really small? Is this a 2-3 person party?) which is not surprising for new players. Doing 59 HP damage to an AC 11 target with no immunities or resistances in 3+ rounds isn't that hard. What were the 3 spells the wizard cast at it? That might give a good idea of what they're doing - just spamming magic missile (IMO the simplest way to burn 3 slots) should have taken down around half of its hit points.

[JNAProductions]

Did your players roll atrociously? Because even with poor tactics, they shoulda stomped this boy.

Really, more details on what happened are needed.

[patchyman]

Second the request for more info. We were all novice DMs once, and the situation may have been as simple as a rule that was misread.

[MoiMagnus]

What classes?

Assuming the most boring team, every turn they make a single attack at +5 vs 11, and 1d6+3 in case of success (short sword or bow, with 16 in strength or dexterity).

It means 75% chance of success, with 6.5 average dmg in case of success, so 4.875 dmg in average.
So the Ogre is dead in 12.1 attacks in average.
Which mean that if the players just stupidly attack every turn, the Ogre is dead in 3 turns (15 attacks -> 73 dmg in average).

Note that most cantrip are 1d8 instead, so if we assume a team of 5 wizards, they still make 62 dmg in 15 attacks in average, so the Ogre is still dead in 3 turns. However, they will have problem to survive the two consecutive Ogre attacks, so it might be a little more difficult.

What could go wrong?
1) You gave to the player too many disadvantages for various reasons, making this easy target actually difficult to touch.
2) You gave to the Ogre infinite Javelin, and he somehow manage to remain out of reach from melee characters, and none of them had backup ranged weapons.
3) Your players were will-defended or unlucky, the Ogre attacked first, and they got afraid and tried to temporize, heal, and avoid attacks rather than trying to get rid of the danger by killing the Ogre.

[BloodOgre]

so if we assume a team of 5 wizards, they still make 62 dmg in 15 attacks in average, so the Ogre is still dead in 3 turns. However, they will have problem to survive the two consecutive Ogre attacks, so it might be a little more difficult.

Five wizards... no problem... each casts magic missile (MM) doing an average of 10.5 each for a total 52.5 of the ogre's 59 hp. Next round, the first wizard can cast MM and finish it off. I doubt the ogre gets to make more than one attack. Next Ogre, same deal. Wizards then take a short rest and recover one spell slot each, or they can take a long rest. A group of wizards, even low level ones, can be VERY dangerous.

Sorry, just had to point that out.

However, you do make some good points, and I would add that, since these were new players, is it possible they were not adding their appropriate to hit bonuses to their rolls? That is something I see quite often in very new players.

[Chronos]

Or forgot things like the barbarian's resistance to damage while raging, if the ogre knocked the barbarian out (twice).

[regie]

The party consists of a Barbarian, fighter, druid, cleric, and wizard. everyone is lvl.2. Everyone is new to the game except the wizard.

Prepared attack/healing spells and cantrips:
Wizard: "ice-knife", "green-flame blade", "fireball" (Missing 2 lvl.1 spell slots)
Druid: "ice-knife", "primal savagery", "thunderwave" (Used all wildshape before the fight)
Cleric: "Healing word", "spare the dying", and "word of radiance"

(Other spells included "speak with animals", "disguise self" and "guidance"
etc.)

Ogre stats
Armor Class 11 (Hide Armor)
Hit Points 59 (7d10+21)
Speed 40 ft.
Greatclub. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: (2d8 + 4) bludgeoning damage.
Javelin. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: (2d6 + 4) piercing damage.
Javelin. Ranged Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 30/120 ft., one target. Hit: (2d6 + 4) piercing damage

The short version story goes kind of like this.
They meet the ogre on non-difficult terrain, and no one was affected by conditions. Who the ogre targets were determined by dice. No one was surprised(made sure the ogre made a lot of noise). The ogre threw two javelins during the session, and only one of them hit.
Even with the 50%reduction from rage the ogre still hit the barbarian with 2d6+4 about 8+4 - 50% = 6. barbarian´s HP is 14.

The barbarian and the fighter made melee attacks, whilst the druid tried to stop the wizard from casting fireball while the rest of the players were so close to the target. The cleric was healing the barbarian and fighter whilst dodging attacks from the ogre.
The druid convinces the wizard of using ice-knife instead of fireball.
The barbarian used "rage", but after a couple of rounds, he was knocked unconscious, but got healed by the cleric. He then resumed fighting with less than half his HP.
Fighter continued melee attacks.
Druid tries to talk to the ogre, but it doesn't work.
The wizard runs out of spell slots and starts throwing rations at the ogre.
Barbarian was knocked out again.
The druid then uses "Primal savagery" and kills the ogre.

I guess the biggest problems were that the party hadn't rested, and everyone rolled exceptionally bad. yes is it is possible that they were not adding they're appropriate to hit bonuses to their rolls.
We are gonna talk about resting and go over the different spells and bonuses before the next session.
I want to make the game fun for the payers, even if it has to become a little easier. Any advice on how to play out the Nothic part?

[Erys]

Level 2 party... wizard has fireball?

[Quietus]

The level 2 Barbarian has 14 HP? How?

[Solunaris]

I have a few questions about the character's spells and HP values. For instance, any Barbarian at level 2 should have at least 19 HP with a Con modifier of +0. I assume he must have gone into the fight already injured right?

Second, how does the Wizard have a 3rd level spell at Character level 2? He shouldn't have access to that until level 5 at the earliest. And on the topic of spells why didn't the Cleric or Druid cast any offensive spells? Actually, why did the Druid spend an action talking to the Ogre? If you are already engaged in combat talking has already been taken off of the table and a character with a decent Wis or Int score would know that. Especially a Druid.

I think you just need to go over everyone's characters to make sure they built them correctly. Especially the Barbarian and the Wizard. One doesn't seem to have understood how HP generation works at level one and might be indicative of other problems while the other might just be cheating at the worst or vastly misunderstanding something at the best.

[Daghoulish]

Level 2 party... wizard has fireball?

I believe in that module there is a scroll of fireball that you can get before that point.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The level 2 Barbarian has 14 HP? How?

It's possible if the Barbarian has 10 con and rolls a 2 for their level 2 hit die.

@OP, I don't believe that your Wizard has experience with 5E. Out of all the the mistakes made, your Wizard players are the most egregious. He should not have fireball, he should know 3 cantrips so that he isn't throwing rations at an ogre when his spell slots run out. He seems equally as inexperienced as the rest of the party, perhaps more so.


I believe in that module there is a scroll of fireball that you can get before that point.
Well that explains that, you're right.

This still leaves 2 of the Wizards cantrips unaccounted for though.

[MoiMagnus]

Prepared attack/healing spells and cantrips:
Wizard: "ice-knife", "green-flame blade", "fireball" (Missing 2 lvl.1 spell slots)
Druid: "ice-knife", "primal savagery", "thunderwave" (Used all wildshape before the fight)
Cleric: "Healing word", "spare the dying", and "word of radiance"


You know that cantrip can be used infinitely many times, right? Only spells of level 1 or more are limited.

So those 3 characters should have at least one offensive cantrip which allow them to do 1d8 per turn of ranged damages. (Except if they have a bow, then they might not need it)
Characters should never have useless turns, they should always be able to attack efficiently without spending any resources.

Secondly, did the character took their bonus hit points from level up?

If their hit dice is a dX, with a bonus of +B in constitution, they should have:

X+dX+2B, so X*1.5+B*2 in average.

[OverLordOcelot]

Your group is building characters badly and just plain doesn't know how to play the game, and the wizard seems worse at it than the others. Also, your initial description was incorrect - the wizard didn't use all of his spell slots on the ogre, he had 2/3 of them expended beforehand and only used one which paints a radically different picture.

Your characters should have a 14-16 con unless they're very strongly not front line characters (like an archer or wizard), and even then I wouldn't drop below a 12 - look at the sample characters in the starter set for guidance. Also you get max HP at first level and average after (or your can roll, but rolling is a bad deal for them). The barbarian should have 23-25 hp, not 14 like you stated. Every caster should have a basic attack cantrip like firebolt or toll the dead, and the only people who should take cantrips like green flame blade are people who want to be in melee, not a wizard. Healing spells should be used sparingly, primarily to bring someone back from zero or keep them from going down, not spammed - the cleric should be able to contribute significant damage with toll the dead or the like. Cleric should also consider guiding bolt and/or inflict wounds, as they can do a lot of damage. Talking mid-combat with creatures that aren't too bright (like an ogre) is also not a good plan.

With a better built group, the barbarian can take several hits while raging, and the groups damage output should be double or triple what your group's was. Instead of helplessly spamming heals on a doomed barbarian while the wizard throws rations and the druid tries to reason with a dumb opponent, you'd have the cleric throwing steady damage (healing word is a bonus action spell, so he can use it and a damage cantrip in the same round), the wizard using his last spell then falling back on what's also steady damage (firebolt is not far behind ice knife in single target damage), and the druid adding his melee cantrip to the total.

[hymer]

Prepared attack/healing spells and cantrips:
Wizard: "ice-knife", "green-flame blade", "fireball" (Missing 2 lvl.1 spell slots)
Just to be abundantly clear: Cantrips do not count towards spell slots used or spells prepared for those who prepare spell lists.


barbarian´s HP is 14.
You would expect a first level barbarian to have 14 hp. You would expect the same barbarian to have 23 hp at level 2.


the druid tried to stop the wizard from casting fireball while the rest of the players were so close to the target.
Very sensible of the druid. But this is a waste of two PCs' effective combat abilities while this is going on. At the least, the casters should be pelting the enemy with their cantrips. Though if their dex or str is 14 or more, some physical weapon may be a better option.


The cleric was healing the barbarian and fighter whilst dodging attacks from the ogre.
The cleric should be attacking, buffing, or debuffing, and not heal unless someone is (going) out of the fight. Healing is best done between fights. It is better to prevent damage than to heal it.


The druid convinces the wizard of using ice-knife instead of fireball.
So the guys in melee with the ogre got ice knife'd? I thought the wizard player was the experienced one? The wizard clearly needs a single-target attack available.


The barbarian used "rage", but after a couple of rounds, he was knocked unconscious, but got healed by the cleric. He then resumed fighting with less than half his HP.
Fighter continued melee attacks.
Solid tactics here.


Druid tries to talk to the ogre, but it doesn't work.
Nice idea, but not bloody likely to work in the middle of a fight. Support your friends, druid!


The wizard runs out of spell slots and starts throwing rations at the ogre.
Get in there, with greenflame blade if you have to! And make sure you have some ranged at-will capability for the future.


Barbarian was knocked out again.
That's fine, it's his job.


The druid then uses "Primal savagery" and kills the ogre.
Good! Probably should've been doing that from the start.


I want to make the game fun for the payers, even if it has to become a little easier. Any advice on how to play out the Nothic part?
Get the PC sheets and go over them. Make sure these characters are built correctly. That should help. Then discuss the tactical lessons to be learned.
I think I would do a test fight with the ogre after that. Just to be sure the players have absorbed the lessons, and let them see how much easier it goes when they know what they are doing, and are all working towards the same goal.
Nothics are pretty swingy, and can easily cause a death against a low level party. You may want to make it clear to the players that this need not be a combat encounter; and that if it does turn into a fight, they may find it difficult. I suggest telling them straight up.

[Sigreid]

The issue really goes down to player experience and understanding of the game. They haven't yet learned to use all of their abilities (cantrips) or that once the fight starts you need to go into hyper aggressive curb stomp mode. In short, over half the party held back instead of tending to the task at hand.

[Cizak]

Does the wizard's character not understand the concept of friendly fire in AoE and how to be of use once they run out of spell slots, or does the wizard's player not understand this?

If it's the former, that could be fine. Personally, I would think it'd get old really quickly, but if all other players at the table think it's fun, then it's okay. It will however, as seen in this fight, make combat quite a lot harder if it wastes actions for both the wizard and their teammates.

If it's the latter, you need to have an out-of-game conversation with this player about how to play more effectively. Make it clear that it's not to "punish" or "call out" this player, but to make both their and their teammates play experience more fun.

[OverLordOcelot]

Does the wizard's character not understand the concept of friendly fire in AoE and how to be of use once they run out of spell slots, or does the wizard's player not understand this?

Also, if you do have a big AOE spell, you can cast it so that just an edge of it overlaps an enemy. If you're in an open room and your allies all stick to one side of the ogre, it's easy to place a fireball so that it hits the ogre and none of your friends. If you're outdoors or have a high ceiling, you can center the fireball in the air so that only a tiny bit of ground gets covers. It's probably a waste of resources to use your one-shot fireball scroll on a single target, but at higher levels it's pretty common.

[Chronos]

Selective targeting of area-effect spells is even easier when your foe is taller than all your allies, like an ogre. Just put it above their heads.

[regie]

I believe in that module there is a scroll of fireball that you can get before that point.
yes its a lvl. 3... oops. Definitely made a mistake there. They haven't got a scroll of fireball.


Does the wizard's character not understand the concept of friendly fire in AoE and how to be of use once they run out of spell slots, or does the wizard's player not understand this?

If it's the former, that could be fine. Personally, I would think it'd get old really quickly, but if all other players at the table think it's fun, then it's okay. It will however, as seen in this fight, make combat quite a lot harder if it wastes actions for both the wizard and their teammates.
The wizard has also hit the druid with the range of fireball twice before which is why she tried to stop the wizard from doing it again. The wizard would place the sphere right in front of the monster and the other players. None of the other players encourages this reckless gameplay, even for roleplaying, and they don't think it is fun.


Selective targeting of area-effect spells is even easier when your foe is taller than all your allies, like an ogre. Just put it above their heads.
If you're in an open room and your allies all stick to one side of the ogre, it's easy to place a fireball so that it hits the ogre and none of your friends. If you're outdoors or have a high ceiling, you can center the fireball in the air so that only a tiny bit of ground gets covers.
To place it above the oger, is a great tactic. we hadn't thought of that. ill make sure to tell the wizard, thank you.


It's possible if the Barbarian has 10 con and rolls a 2 for their level 2 hit die.
I think this is what might have happened, because his HP was full at the beginning of the fight. im gonna ask him.
How can we make this better or fix it, i will allow him to change his stats if needed? I think something went wrong when he leveled up?


You know that cantrip can be used infinitely many times, right? Only spells of level 1 or more are limited.
We know that they have endless cantrips, but I think they panicked and maybe forgot. Which is why the wizard threw rations. (wizard had firebolt, minor-illusion, and mage-hand as their cantrips)

[opaopajr]

Part of the RPG fun is players are allowed to bite off more than they can chew -- with no GM Heimlich Maneuver to save their PCs as they choke. :smallcool:

Give them that fair warning and let them figure out how to deal with Nothic and the like as they come. They may learn, they may not. But at least they did it their way. :smalltongue:

[Cizak]

The wizard has also hit the druid with the range of fireball twice before which is why she tried to stop the wizard from doing it again. The wizard would place the sphere right in front of the monster and the other players. None of the other players encourages this reckless gameplay, even for roleplaying, and they don't think it is fun.

Then you need to have a serious talk with the wizard and explain to them that their playstyle is actively detrimental to the group's enjoyment of the game. It also makes the wishes that you make the encounters easier rather unfair; it is the wizard who is providing the extra risk for the entire party.

It sounds troubling that this has happened before, to the degree that the druid had to spend time mid-combat to tell the wizard to cut it out. If a player won't listen to their teammates, then it's up to the DM to take a stand. Explain to them why this behaviour isn't okay. If that doesn't help, it might unfortunately be time to boot the player.

[BullyWog]

If the wizard wants to blast, have them change to evocation. Then they can blast and spare their friends.

[BullyWog]

I think GFB can be a fine cantrip for a wizard, just don't use it before you get Misty Step. In spite of how careful you are, there will always end up a time when one or two bads are adjacent. Hit them with GFB(especially at level 5 this does some real damage) and Misty Step away.

[thrdeye]

Definitely go over everybody's character sheet, make sure everything's built according to the rules and the player's desired role in the party. For example, why does the wizard have GFB? An effective melee wizard can be built, but not before the end of this module. Not that one is needed anyway with a fighter, barbarian, and what appears to be a melee druid already in the party.

Make sure everyone has an appropriate spammable damage option and knows how to use it. Allow them to change stats/spell selections/etc. to fix this or any other problems.

Fix the barbarian's hp.

Make sure the cleric knows this isn't WoW and their job isn't to stand in the back spamming heals. They should be getting a concentration spell like Bless up and then using a damage cantrip and throwing out Healing Word when necessary.

Fix the wizard's spell list and attitude. I have a hard time believing the same person is, in good faith, accidentally using a spell that's well above their level and then dropping it on top of their own party members.