Sneaking Past Alert Guards

[DrLoveMonkey]

How do you do it?

Like let’s say there’s a basement locked room with candles/torches lighting the area brightly and two alert guards in front of the door. Alternatively the door isn’t locked it’s just an open doorway. Obviously you could use invisibility to get through the open door version and teleportation to get past the closed door one, but I’m thinking without magic.

As far as I know you can’t attempt stealth without obscurement, but can a legendary thief get around that? Or are you “stuck” hunting for a potion of invisibility, which admittedly at high levels with buckets of gold isn’t exactly the hardest thing to come by in a lot of settings.

[PeteNutButter]

Generally you don't. That's the point.

Otherwise you risk running into a world where the party bard walks up to the king and says, "Give me your crown and make me the king." LOOK, I rolled a nat 20, that means I rule the kingdom now, right?

You can play how you want, but if you want your players to respect the realism of the world, you should encourage them to find another solution, though they could be more mundane, such as a distraction of some sort. That said, most trained guards aren't going to abandon their posts easily.

With a heavy caveat, you could say, "You're character is better at this than any of us IRL, so he figures out a way." But to me that's total crap. Might work if you narrate a way it could work, such as the distraction.

[Man_Over_Game]

If you don't put any inherent weaknesses to the scenario then the players aren't going to find many. Sometimes there isn't some kind of special solution to a problem, and the players are simply stuck with a lot of bad options.

Now, the DM should be trying to include several possible solutions to most scenarios, so that players have more ways to shine (maybe there's a hole in the wall to the basement in the back, under a bush, where some rats have been chewing through), but, as-is, the players would need to change the scenario in order to have a chance. As Pete said, a distraction would be a good course of action. Personally, though, I like the idea of Silence and then just beating them down without letting them escape the zone of Silence. It'll take them a while to realize that they've been Silenced, so you can use that time to approach them in their silent panic.

[bendking]

I like the idea of Silence and then just beating them down without letting them escape the zone of Silence. It'll take them a while to realize that they've been Silenced, so you can use that time to approach them in their silent panic.

I usually just start a fire.

[DrLoveMonkey]

Those are some good options!

I’m mostly asking because I’m not really sure even what I want out of the scenario. On the one hand it makes zero sense to me that a thief could just stand between two guards in the bright light, unlock a door, swing it out between them, grab something and leave without their notice. The sheer geometry of it doesn’t work.

On the flip side I feel like this is a fairly common scenario, it doesn’t have to be a basement, could be a tower with no windows or only barred windows or something. As such I feel like a max level thief should be able to deal with it using class abilities, but apart from I guess a big enough distraction to lure trained guards from their post all I’m coming up with is gold based. Like go buy a magic item or hire a sorcerer or something. Or maybe a few other scenarios that take a long long time to set up.

[Man_Over_Game]

Those are some good options!

I’m mostly asking because I’m not really sure even what I want out of the scenario. On the one hand it makes zero sense to me that a thief could just stand between two guards in the bright light, unlock a door, swing it out between them, grab something and leave without their notice. The sheer geometry of it doesn’t work.

On the flip side I feel like this is a fairly common scenario, it doesn’t have to be a basement, could be a tower with no windows or only barred windows or something. As such I feel like a max level thief should be able to deal with it using class abilities, but apart from I guess a big enough distraction to lure trained guards from their post all I’m coming up with is gold based. Like go buy a magic item or hire a sorcerer or something. Or maybe a few other scenarios that take a long long time to set up.

I'd suggest including some inherent weaknesses to the scenario.

Maybe the guards in the Wizard's tower are golems that are controlled via a magic stone that holds the wizard's orders and power that's outside of the room. Maybe the guards are bored and underpaid, constantly gambling on the job. Maybe the tower is in disrepair, and there are plenty of options to climb from the outside of the tower. Maybe the basement goes further down, into the sewer, or maybe it has a secret entrance that not even the guards are aware of.

If things seem impossible, make it less so. Your players will feel more rewarded taking advantage of a weakness than trying to brute force their way into a fortress.

[Keravath]

Those are some good options!

I’m mostly asking because I’m not really sure even what I want out of the scenario. On the one hand it makes zero sense to me that a thief could just stand between two guards in the bright light, unlock a door, swing it out between them, grab something and leave without their notice. The sheer geometry of it doesn’t work.

On the flip side I feel like this is a fairly common scenario, it doesn’t have to be a basement, could be a tower with no windows or only barred windows or something. As such I feel like a max level thief should be able to deal with it using class abilities, but apart from I guess a big enough distraction to lure trained guards from their post all I’m coming up with is gold based. Like go buy a magic item or hire a sorcerer or something. Or maybe a few other scenarios that take a long long time to set up.

Even a master thief can't get into a locked and alertly guarded room without a plan. Which is the point. If you set a realistically difficult situation then you are absolutely correct, the thief can't just walk up, unlock the door, take the stuff in front of the guards and walk out. This is how it should work. Even for a 20th level thief. They will be noticed.

So ... the questions then become how to obtain whatever is in the room ...
- is the room locked
- are there other entrances to the room (even a mouse hole might work for a shape changed druid.
- is there a gap under the door - gaseous form might work
- can you see into the room? Misty step
- dimension door into the room if you know it is empty and can pinpoint it from your current location.
- distraction .. can the guards be encouraged to leave their posts? Fire/noise/an accomplice who distracts them into another room
- blackmail? Do the guards have any weaknesses? Addictions? Debts? Can you convince one guard to distract the other?
- digging? Passwall/disintegrate a hole into the room
- Cast silence and just take out the guards?
- release a noxious gas into the room that puts the guards to sleep, causes temporary blindness or smells so bad that they need to run out of the room.

Basically, without magic, you need to get the guards to leave so you can open the door without being noticed ... and that is the real answer. Even with invisibility the guards would notice the door opening and there is a decent chance they would hear the thief trying to pick the lock within a couple of feet so no matter what plan is determined, noise and distraction will have to be elements in the plan.

[DrLoveMonkey]

Yeah it’s sort of the “without magic” part that’s really sticking. I’m asking because we’re coming up on maybe the fourth or fifth time this campaign that a scenario somewhat similar to this is happening, depending on your definition of similar, and the thief really isn’t contributing. The wizard/warlock usually takes care of it with teleportation and once the fighter...well he didn’t really solve the problem he just got fed up with the guy who was carting the armoured cart around so he decked the guy holding the keys, decked the guards guarding the iron door and just opened it.

In each of those instances they had what they wanted in minutes after realizing that it was there, so compared to that the days long planning and prep options seem less attractive. Although admittedly the fighter solution was...yeah.

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah it’s sort of the “without magic” part that’s really sticking. I’m asking because we’re coming up on maybe the fourth or fifth time this campaign that a scenario somewhat similar to this is happening, depending on your definition of similar, and the thief really isn’t contributing. The wizard/warlock usually takes care of it with teleportation and once the fighter...well he didn’t really solve the problem he just got fed up with the guy who was carting the armoured cart around so he decked the guy holding the keys, decked the guards guarding the iron door and just opened it.

In each of those instances they had what they wanted in minutes after realizing that it was there, so compared to that the days long planning and prep options seem less attractive. Although admittedly the fighter solution was...yeah.

We actually had a big thread on this topic a few months ago, about how Rogues get overshadowed by anything with magic (Why be a Thief when you can be an Arcane Trickster?)

It takes a very lucrative DM, in regards to how powerful skills are, in order for anything relying on skills to stay competitive with magic.

The solutions basically boiled down to:


Have so many skill checks that a magician can't hope to solve all of the problems using spell slots
Add some kind of modification to the skill system that allows characters to be superhuman (where "stealth" is the rough equivalent to Invisibility).


Both have their own problems:

How often do you expect Insight to be useful, and how do you make that come up more often than a Bard would want to cast Detect Thoughts? A key component to consider is that Rogues choose their skills at level 1, but casters can choose their spells when they level or sleep.
How do you make someone superhuman from levels 1-20, when your bonus to your skills only increase by about +5 points over the course of your career? That is, a level 1 rolls a 15 (mildly superhuman) 50% of the time, and a level 20 rolls a 20 (fairly superhuman) 50% of the time. If you make level 20s superhuman, how do they stand out when compared to level 1s?

I'm a fan of using the second bullet, but instead of using high rolls, I have players make multiple smaller ones, rolling until they fail. The number of successes indicate your level of "awesome", and it dramatically separates the specialized vs. the plebs.

For example: DC 10, roll until you fail.
1 Success = You do it in the most generic way possible. (You move at half speed up a wall in the middle of a fight).
2 Successes = You do it in a way that gets you some kind of minor advantage. (You move at full speed up the wall in the middle of a fight).
3 Successes = You do it in a way that gets you special actions that'd normally be impossible (You move at full speed up the wall in the middle of the fight, and your jumping distance is doubled).

[RulesJD]

Yeah it’s sort of the “without magic” part that’s really sticking. I’m asking because we’re coming up on maybe the fourth or fifth time this campaign that a scenario somewhat similar to this is happening, depending on your definition of similar, and the thief really isn’t contributing. The wizard/warlock usually takes care of it with teleportation and once the fighter...well he didn’t really solve the problem he just got fed up with the guy who was carting the armoured cart around so he decked the guy holding the keys, decked the guards guarding the iron door and just opened it.

In each of those instances they had what they wanted in minutes after realizing that it was there, so compared to that the days long planning and prep options seem less attractive. Although admittedly the fighter solution was...yeah.

Rogue makes a noise to distract the guards.

Rogue dons a disguise as a fellow guard and begs them to help him fight off intruders.

Rogue starts a small fire with really wet wood/material that generates a ton of smoke. Lets the smoke waft down the corridor, either driving the guards out or drawing them into the trap.

(Homebrew'ish) Rogue attaches a very thin waterskin (Waterballon) to some arrows and shoots it at the torches giving off light.


Part of Rogue's power comes from basically guarantee passing certain skill checks, but that requires you to get really creative to see their power. It also requires the DM to be cooperative with outside the standard mechanics.

[Trickery]

There's a trick I use when I DM situations like this. I'll lay down the problem, but won't tell my players how to solve it. They'll talk amongst themselves, then propose an idea.

Whatever idea they come up with, I'll give them an honest try. If they roll well or support each other and put in the effort, it's going to work. If I have to tweak things on the fly to make the idea possible, things they had no way to know, then I generally will do so.

Why operate this way? Too many situations in D&D have only one solution. There are published campaigns where the campaign book expects players to do something they would never do, like hand over all of their gear and offer themselves up as slaves (yes, really). My players shouldn't be punished for approaching a problem in a way different from how I would.

Case in point: guards guarding a thing that the players need. It's brightly lit. I make it clear that walking right in isn't an option.

If the players suggest waiting for a guard swap, ambushing the replacement, interrogating him about stuff they need to know, then disguising a party member as that guy to take his place...then yeah, guess what, there's a guard change. And it's a new guy. And hey, he's not that loyal. He probably values his life over his job, especially if you pay him. Or just let him go because, you know, life and stuff. And here he comes now. There's an alley down the way before he gets to his post. Have fun.

[DrLoveMonkey]

We actually had a big thread on this topic a few months ago, about how Rogues get overshadowed by anything with magic (Why be a Thief when you can be an Arcane Trickster?)

It takes a very lucrative DM, in regards to how powerful skills are, in order for anything relying on skills to stay competitive with magic.

Yeah that’s unfortunate. I also find anti-magic fields to be a bit of a cudgel that shouldn’t just be dropped everywhere especially at low level. Even teleport wards aren’t so effective because infiltrating as a tiny insect via Polymorph is so much easier.

Also for these exact instances stacking skill checks is hard. Dimension Door let’s you skip past any number of locked doors, or any number of locks on a single door, likewise Polymorph if there’s a spot to fit through. Particularly since it’s a 4 man party so between the wizard and warlock you can actually get everyone with a pair of DDs. I’m finding that stacking skill checks in between just makes the rogue side of things worse because now that option takes even longer and has even more dangers. Also sometimes it’s just not feasible, an armoured cart can only have so many layers of defense.

That’s why I was really hoping for stuff like RulesJD brought up. Even if it’s just to bring up a discussion if the added risk is worth saving a spell slot for. Not the best argument if it’s a kind of off adventuring day, especially between arcane recovery and warlock regaining all spells on a short rest, but it’s something. The best case scenario of corse would be a plan that involves everyone so all members can have fun joining in, I just know there’s either a problem with how the rogue is being played or how the game is being set up or both when the thief subclass feels like dead weight during a burglary scene.


There's a trick I use when I DM situations like this. I'll lay down the problem, but won't tell my players how to solve it. They'll talk amongst themselves, then propose an idea.

Whatever idea they come up with, I'll give them an honest try. If they roll well or support each other and put in the effort, it's going to work. If I have to tweak things on the fly to make the idea possible, things they had no way to know, then I generally will do so.


I might suggest something like this, I do it myself all the time just because I trust my players to be super clever. More clever than me often. So I just make up a problem that I can’t see how to solve and let them have at it. Sadly I’m not the GM for this game I’m just close friends with him and we discuss how to handle stuff like this.