Bards and the rule of cool

[Jaryn]

I really like bards. I like them mechanically, and I like them thematically. I just have one problem with them: the use of an instrument as an arcane focus.

Picture the scene... Facing some trolls, and your fighter types are battling with tooth and steel, your archers are raining down arrows like there's no tomorrow, your warlocks and wizards and sorcerers are using staffs, crystals and wands to summon mystic energy and... the bard is playing the lute like they don't have a care in the world.

Ok, I'm exaggerating slightly, but there is something quite incongruous about it (in my opinion). For certain spells I can imagine them blowing on a pipe of some kind, but...

Is it better to have a bard using a component pouch, or does that just look too much like a wizard? How do you make bards look cool in a dungeon in the face of the enemy when they're casting spells?

[Tallytrev813]

I dont think so. I play Bard a lot, i typically like it. You strum a specific string, a specific note, and it has an effect. Maybe the sound charms the badguy, maybe the air becomes wavy and distorted traveling at the enemy and it has some effect.

I think you can flavor it to be really cool - you have to be creative with it though. Dont make it you dancing around with magic musical notes floating around you.

[Zetakya]

Use an appropriate instrument. Drums, Horns, Cymbals, and Bagpipes were all historically used for Martial music. Did you know the Saxophone was originally invented as an easily portable military instrument?

Save the lute for playing Charm Spells and similar.

Note: It is not possible to play Song Of Rest on Bagpipes.

[TheSilentMuze]

Seconded- Bards are all about flavour and context. Think of a military drummer standing on the front lines, directing troops, absolutely fearless as shrapnel flies around them.
Think of the brassy note of a warhorn, blown by a Viking warrior with his hair streaming and a horde of berserkers at his back.
Think of a commander bellowing orders to his subordinates, yelling curses filled witb vitriol at the opposing force, so emphatic that it leaves them reeling.
To me, these are all Bards.
Think of 3.5 and the myriad of Performance proficiencies there were- oratory, comedy, string instruments, acting. All of these are viable mediums for a Bard's casting, at least from a fluff perspective.

[nickl_2000]

I really think that this is your best solution.

https://noviceguitar.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Gene-Simmons-Featured.png


However, pulling a grand piano out a bag of holding is a very good choice too.

[dragoeniex]

Flipside to all the appropriate "war" instruments, there's something captivating about orchestral instruments like the violin, clarinet, etc. These more elegant foci could go along with your bard matching- or even leading the tempo of battle. The song gets faster and sharper as your teammates go into a frenzy, and your notes or strokes throw off bright flashes of color as your spells take effect in sync. Or the notes become long and slow as the song becomes mournful, paranoia-inducing, or unsteady-- ripples and distortions spread out as control spells are cast to delay your foes. Happy, staccato notes when you inspire someone.

Component pouches are also perfectly acceptable. I prefer flavoring the spell itself more than the implement, but instruments are grand for positioning yourself as a conducter of the battle.

[Contrast]

Is it better to have a bard using a component pouch, or does that just look too much like a wizard?

Firstly, all casters should have multiple focuses and component pouches.

Secondly, I don't really get why you think a component pouch is a wizard only thing. Does it seem super wizardy to apply make up before casting Friends? Does someone scattering rose petals into the air to induce magical Sleep sound more like something the foppish bard would do or the crotchety old wizard?

It's also worth saying in practice most DMs don't care what the focus is as long as you've paid the money to buy one and use a hand for it. My bard has never used an instrument (they're expensive and delicate, I'm not risking them getting damaged in combat!) and uses a component pouch but I doubt my DM would have a problem if I wanted to use a wand as a conductors baton.

[RSP]

You don’t have to play the instrument to cast the spell: it’s just the M component so it must only be held in hand.

[Chrizzt]

I understand the OP's point of view, and I see it the same, because of the concept of bard I play. My bard was an orator, a magic user who used words of power to bring forth magic. He was no entertainer, more some kind of a lore master and sage.

Playing any kind of instrument as a focus is silly for such a lore bard.

[Zetakya]

You don’t have to play the instrument to cast the spell: it’s just the M component so it must only be held in hand.

We are on the rule of cool, here. Play the instrument. Doing so satisfies the Material, Somatic and Verbal components of the spell (otherwise you get silly things like not being able to cast V spells using woodwind instruments).

[Man_Over_Game]

I'd let my bard players do something else that was related to music or knowledge in some way.

For example, reading a verse in a mystical language from a book of magical, musical verses. Kinda like a spellbook, except more hippy-dippy.

Or maybe it's a shamanistic tambourine/drum, or a staff with bells on it.


Really, though, the question is, where DOES the magic come from? Everyone pulls it from somewhere. Most use some kind of focus. A Sorcerer thematically pulls magic from himself. So where do you expect your Bard to pull magic from (in a way that doesn't overlap with the Sorcerer)?

[RSP]

We are on the rule of cool, here. Play the instrument. Doing so satisfies the Material, Somatic and Verbal components of the spell (otherwise you get silly things like not being able to cast V spells using woodwind instruments).

Um okay. The OP complained they didn’t like having to play the instrument for it to work as a focus. If a player is complaining about homebrew restrictions, I don’t think said rules fall under Rule of Cool, but rather in the category of “not fun for Player.”

Obviously, if you think it’s cool forcing your Players to adhere to your homebrew restrictions, go with it; but we have different definitions of “Rule of Cool.”

[Zetakya]

Um okay. The OP complained they didn’t like having to play the instrument for it to work as a focus. If a player is complaining about homebrew restrictions, I don’t think said rules fall under Rule of Cool, but rather in the category of “not fun for Player.”

Obviously, if you think it’s cool forcing your Players to adhere to your homebrew restrictions, go with it; but we have different definitions of “Rule of Cool.”

The OPs stated issue is that the instrument he's using isn't appropriate for combat. Which I dealt with earlier. The reply you are quoting there was just dealing with your very boring suggestion that you could just hold an instrument and satisfy a casting requirement, which is the kind of exceptionally dull rules lawyering that makes for a game where rule mechanics take precedence over rule of cool. If you doing that you might as well just carry a component pouch (or play a Wizard).

And, if you'll note, the title of the thread is "Bards and the rule of cool".

[LtPowers]

So where do you expect your Bard to pull magic from (in a way that doesn't overlap with the Sorcerer)?

A Bard's magic comes from her understanding of the power of organized sound -- words and music. Wizards know the basics of this fact; it's why the vast majority of spells have a verbal component, and why truenames are so important in controlling creatures. But a Bard has studied this phenomenon (or at least has plenty of practice observing it in action). Organizing the power of sound by reciting rhymes or playing chords is not just a metaphor for organizing the threads of magic into a spell effect; it's actually a direct means of doing so.

There are plenty of examples of magic being activated simply by reciting words or playing a tune -- no spellcasting ability needed. Bards take that mode of operation and combine it with actual spellcasting ability to produce powerful magical effects at will.


Power &8^]

[Xetheral]

The "best" instrument for using in combat is a slide whistle. It gets everyone to stop fighting and look at you incredulously just long enough for you to stab them.

Bagpipes and accordion are close seconds, but suffer from the similar flaw of encouraging people to stab you on anything except a high CHA (Performance) check result. One-man-band (Mary Poppins style) would be a contender except that it qualifies as heavy armor, and Bards don't have proficiency.

[Jaryn]

There are several ideas in this thread, which is great, so thank you all!

I do find the idea of different instruments for different spells quite interesting, and leaving the lute behind on the surface definitely feels like the way to go. Lutes are fragile!

It's a good point re. slightly alternative components like rose petals. Nicely bardic.

The whole thing about bards who have other art forms (song, story, etc) still needing to use instruments is interesting. I could really get behind song as a form though.

[Zetakya]

The whole thing about bards who have other art forms (song, story, etc) still needing to use instruments is interesting. I could really get behind song as a form though.

You can always use materials or a component pouch. The rule on Bards using instruments is permissive, not prescriptive. "You can use a musical instrument (found in chapter 5) as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells."

Can, not must.

[Segev]

Indeed, use whatever you think looks cool. You're allowed to have a component pouch.

But consider that it doesn't have to be the floofy-sleeved minstril-plucking a jaunty tune to get the effect. It can be the creepy, fey-looking elf playing something haunting on a silver fife. It can be the dwarf with the iron guitar that he slams the pick through the strings to strike a terrifying chord. It can be the young human playing a melencholy tune on the lyre with steely determination as he marches towards his foe.

Music is evocative of a lot of emotions, and is often used to signify the creepy and supernatural because of its ability to cut through other sounds and impose an attention-grabbing rhythm on the mind and thoughts of listeners. Play up the power of music that sound tracks take advantage of, and you can make most instruments go from silly to awesome/menacing.

[RSP]

The OPs stated issue is that the instrument he's using isn't appropriate for combat. Which I dealt with earlier. The reply you are quoting there was just dealing with your very boring suggestion that you could just hold an instrument and satisfy a casting requirement, which is the kind of exceptionally dull rules lawyering that makes for a game where rule mechanics take precedence over rule of cool. If you doing that you might as well just carry a component pouch (or play a Wizard).

And, if you'll note, the title of the thread is "Bards and the rule of cool".

The OP’s issue, per the OP:

“I just have one problem with them: the use of an instrument as an arcane focus.”

They specifically state their issue with playing a Bard is having to use the instrument as a focus. They then state they find it difficult to see playing an instrument during combat.

My response to them is that they only need to hold the instrument, not play it.

Obviously you really disagree with them (or anyone, I imagine) having that option, and think it’s “rules lawyering” to suggest it. Why? I have no idea (though I also don’t care).

My recommendation, however, is very much an appropriate response to someone who doesn’t like playing an instrument during combat, regardless of how boring and dull you personally find it to be.

[OverLordOcelot]

The OPs stated issue is that the instrument he's using isn't appropriate for combat. Which I dealt with earlier. The reply you are quoting there was just dealing with your very boring suggestion that you could just hold an instrument and satisfy a casting requirement, which is the kind of exceptionally dull rules lawyering that makes for a game where rule mechanics take precedence over rule of cool. If you doing that you might as well just carry a component pouch (or play a Wizard).

No, it's the kind of reasonable use of the actual game rules that lets the player have a choice on how their character appears in combat so they can act in whatever way the player thinks is cool. I think "my house rule is that you have an additional restriction that enforces your character to appear less individualized but has no mechanical effect" is more boring than "you get to decide how you appear when you cast your spells". Avoiding a boring and pointlessly restrictive house rule in a way that offers descriptive advantage but no mechanical advantage is pretty much the polar opposite of rules lawyering.

[Mellack]

Actually the flute player is an iconic image in combat. Remember this painting?


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Sprit_of_%2776.2.jpeg/300px-Sprit_of_%2776.2.jpeg

[Zetakya]

No, it's the kind of reasonable use of the actual game rules that lets the player have a choice on how their character appears in combat so they can act in whatever way the player thinks is cool. I think "my house rule is that you have an additional restriction that enforces your character to appear less individualized but has no mechanical effect" is more boring than "you get to decide how you appear when you cast your spells". Avoiding a boring and pointlessly restrictive house rule in a way that offers descriptive advantage but no mechanical advantage is pretty much the polar opposite of rules lawyering.

If you think a Bard who just carries a musical instrument in order to rules-lawyer the spell focus rules (instead of carrying a Component Pouch) is more flavourful then I am glad you aren't at my table.

[OverLordOcelot]

You can always use materials or a component pouch. The rule on Bards using instruments is permissive, not prescriptive. "You can use a musical instrument (found in chapter 5) as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells."

Can, not must.

Also, note that someone who requires bards to use an instrument could use your own critique against you here: Yes, but my house rule is that Bards must use musical instruments, and this is just your very boring suggestion that you can just hold a component pouch to satisfy a casting requirement, which is the kind of exceptionally dull rules lawyering that makes for a game where rule mechanics take precedence over the rule of cool.

Again, playing by the actual clear rules in a way that confers no mechanical advantage but allows greater descriptive freedom is very much not 'rules lawyering'.

[RSP]

If you think a Bard who just carries a musical instrument in order to rules-lawyer the spell focus rules (instead of carrying a Component Pouch) is more flavourful then I am glad you aren't at my table.

Let’s just agree we’re glad we’re not at each other’s tables. Though I guess you’ll just have to put up with other people having opinions on these boards, and (gasp!) posting and offering advice, even after you’ve “dealt with” the issues.

[OverLordOcelot]

If you think a Bard who just carries a musical instrument in order to rules-lawyer the spell focus rules (instead of carrying a Component Pouch) is more flavourful then I am glad you aren't at my table.

If you accuse people of rules-lawyering for coming up with their own description of what their characters do, I will be glad to stay well away from your power-tripping table of bogus accusations. The kind of DM that gets worked up if a player sticks to the mechanical rules but comes up with their own description of their character's abilities is... not exactly my type. Or to use your own argument:

If you think a bard who carries a component pouch to rules-lawyer the material components rules (instead of playing a musical instrument) is more flavorful then I am glad you aren't at my table. (I don't believe this, but it makes as much sense as your 'rules lawyer' accusation).

[Zetakya]

Also, note that someone who requires bards to use an instrument could use your own critique against you here: Yes, but my house rule is that Bards must use musical instruments, and this is just your very boring suggestion that you can just hold a component pouch to satisfy a casting requirement, which is the kind of exceptionally dull rules lawyering that makes for a game where rule mechanics take precedence over the rule of cool.

Again, playing by the actual clear rules in a way that confers no mechanical advantage but allows greater descriptive freedom is very much not 'rules lawyering'.

Way to miss the point.

[Laserlight]

Sidestepping the mudslinging for a moment... If I were playing a serious bard, I'd probably have him chant poetry for his magic. "Enchanter", after all. Maybe a bodhran with runes painted on the surface.

I haven't played a serious bard in a while, though, so it's been the Halfling with War Kazoo, or the gnome in evening dress and opera cape with a wagon-mounted pipe organ and a couple of assistants as muleteers and bellows pumpers.

[Segev]

the gnome in evening dress and opera cape with a wagon-mounted pipe organ and a couple of assistants as muleteers and bellows pumpers.

This is one of the more awesome bard concepts I've heard of.

[RedMage125]

My first 5e character was a dragonborn valor bard. He used a hunting horn for his arcane focus, which worked out great narratively, especially for Thunderwave (sharp, blasting note), Sleep (low, gentle tone), and Silence (blows into it, nothing comes out).

For Song of Rest, he absolutely played the bagpipes, naysayers be damned.

Imagine a 6'7" dragon-man in half-plate playing bagpipes.

[Jakinbandw]

I tend to play bards mixed with, or in place of clerics. So far no GMs I've run into have had a problem with me using my Holy Cymbal for casting spells.

But seriously, I have gotten away with using a holy symbol in place of an instrument. As long as you don't have it on your shield you aren't gaining an advantage over anyone else so the GMs I've played with have been fine with it. In addition they also let me take minor illusion as my musical instrument proficiency.

[Agent-KI7KO]

I use Bagpipes for Shatter and Destructive Wave, you can’t tell me that’s not awesome.