Pushing out more damage as a Monk

[jaappleton]

All day long, while bored at work, I'll theorycraft builds in my head.

One thing I can't seem to do it to push out more damage as a Monk.

Barbarians, Fighters, Rangers, etc have feat support through the likes of Sharpshooter, GWM, etc.

Monks... don't get that. They can be augmented a little through some spell help, such as Divine Favor, but beyond that?

I don't see anything. Am I missing something?

I understand Monks are something of a DPR / Controller hybrid, I'm just trying to see if I can squeeze any more blood from the stone here.

[KorvinStarmast]

Flurry of BLows?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Asimar level damage per attack?
Play a monk fighter as your flurry gives you more attacks (you will be almost a Machine gun warlock).


I never saw a DPR build for monk.
I saw tons of controlers, mobility, utilitiy but no damage.
(At low level the big number of attack is nice).

[Kwinza]

Hexblade - 1 / Blade Song - 1 / Monk - X

Wear a head band of Int and go nuts!
You have 24 AC, 4 attacks each of which have +d6+prof in addition to there normal damage.

[tieren]

You could pick up 3 levels of fighter (champion) for action surge, dueling fighting style, and an expanded critical range.

I always thought the charger feat would work well on a monk considering how much they like to move around, but I haven't tried it yet.

magic initiate to pick up hunters mark or hex could increase damage a good bit too.

[Keravath]

Hexblade - 1 / Blade Song - 1 / Monk - X

Wear a head band of Int and go nuts!
You have 24 AC, 4 attacks each of which have +d6+prof in addition to there normal damage.

Ultra MAD requiring 13 dex, 13 wis, 13 int and 13 cha to start with for the multiclassing plus you would like some constitution - likely min 12.

[Keravath]

Another option is 3 levels of gloomstalker ranger to pick up hunter's mark and some other spells along with the dueling fighting style for a small weapon damage boost. They also get an extra attack and extra movement in the first round.

Hunter ranger gets hunter's mark plus an extra d8 damage/turn.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Ultra MAD requiring 13 dex, 13 wis, 13 int and 13 cha to start with for the multiclassing plus you would like some constitution - likely min 12.

You will be fine with lower con, I will even argue for 8 and looking for an amulet of health (as the build already need a headband of intelligent I think that the one considering it should have access to magic items)
You will have high AC and a lot of mobility.
It will be harder to stay alive but doable.

You could take 15 dex, 13 int, 13 cha And the rest in wis.
Dump str and con.
Boost only dex and after that wiz.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Assuming you want to stay straight Monk, once you've already got MI for Divine Favor/Hex/Hunter's Mark, you could take Martial Adept. It's not great or anything. But a Trip Attack could give you advantage on the flurry of blows, and a disarming strike would be pretty funny on a Monk (run up, smack that wand out of the wizard's hands, pick it up and run off with it).

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Assuming you want to stay straight Monk, once you've already got MI for Divine Favor/Hex/Hunter's Mark, you could take Martial Adept. It's not great or anything. But a Trip Attack could give you advantage on the flurry of blows, and a disarming strike would be pretty funny on a Monk (run up, smack that wand out of the wizard's hands, pick it up and run off with it).

Don't he have stunning strike as a monk?

[Guy Lombard-O]

Don't he have stunning strike as a monk?

Sure, and it's awesome. But that needs Ki to power it. And he's looking for ways to up his damage (+1d6 per maneuver).

[RulesJD]

I remember doing the math a loooong time ago on how to boost Monk damage. This is pre-Xanathar but I'm assuming most of it hold sup.

Hex/Hunter's Mark are okay, but the Bonus Action to move is a significant hit to your DPR considering you can always use it to make an attack.

Divine Favor is nice because it's Cleric (you'll already have decent Wis so MAD isn't an issue) and it only uses 1 Bonus Action.

However, the best method of increasing Monk damage is Dueling Fighting Style (usually a Fighter dip) + PAM feat.

The Reaction attack from PAM, and the fact that the BA PAM attack gets Dueling damage, means you'll be outputting more damage with it than your regular BA attack unless you Flurry. On a class that is highly mobile naturally, it means you can trigger a fair number of Reaction PAM attacks.



You'll never get the GWM/SS numbers on a Monk, but that's because those feats are overpowered, especially at later levels where their downside is almost entirely negated. But the setup above keeps you competitive damage wise while still enjoying all of the crazy Monk abilities without having to sacrifice stats on an already extremely MAD class.

[Waazraath]

I think most important options are mentioned already (ignoring items, since you can't count on that in 5e, so its no use for practical optimization).

- races: Aasimar, Goblin, Half-orc (all rather limited uses in different ways)
- Classes: fighter 3, ranger 3, warlock (hexblade) 1 / 3 (though all are sub optimal; the only usable fighting style is only working on 2 of your 4 attacks when flurrying, hex/hunter's mark/hexblade curse compete with bonus actions, that you have plenty of uses for, arguably better uses), only the extra attack from Gloomstalker, action surge and something like Battlemaster maneuvers are worth it. But wether they are worth the delay? Oh yeah, wait: rogue of course, for sneak attack damage. But again, if it is worth it?
- feats: meh; savage attacker is weak, 1 maneuver / rest the same.

To be honest: monk damage is quite good at the lower levels, due to the number of extra attacks. Only when you reached your max (4/round at lvl 5), best thing is to 1) accept that your role is changing from 'damage' to 'control'. There just aren't that much options, at least not good ones.

[RulesJD]

Sorry, I forgot one more option that is very powerful on a Monk but is largely magic item dependent.

Strength Monk build with 1 level of Barbarian (13 Str minimum but you can augment with Gauntlets/Belt of Str). Make all attacks with Strength so you can add Rage damage. Unfortunately this still needs another class for Dueling Fighting Style and precludes Divine Favor, but it's basically the same thing with more benefits.

A Monk's biggest weakness isn't its damage, it's that it folds like wet paper when hit. Adding Rage resist to a Monk is nuts and pretty much the only way mine survived Storm Kings Thunder. Rage works with all of your Monk abilities (including Flurry) if you use Strength.

[Daghoulish]

I know of a few ways for monk to output more damage. You can go Kensei and get deft strike to add your martial arts die to any attack with a kensei weapon which amounts to twice per turn, unless your get action surge. The other is to go four element monk and use fists of the fire snake. Each hit while fangs is active lets you use 1 ki point to do 1d10 extra fire damage, again if you get action surge you could output 6d10 extra damage for 7 Ki points. You could multiclass with a spore druid and use their transformation to get an extra 1d6 poison damage every hit.

[Floogal]

I always thought the charger feat would work well on a monk considering how much they like to move around, but I haven't tried it yet.
The main point of the Charger feat is to let a melee character dash & still get an attack in the same turn. As monks can spend a ki point to dash as a bonus action (and thus still make two attacks with their action), this feat is of little use to them.

The bonus damage / pushing distance is a minor side-benefit, and should rarely be the reason why you consider this feat.

[Nhorianscum]

All day long, while bored at work, I'll theorycraft builds in my head.

One thing I can't seem to do it to push out more damage as a Monk.

Barbarians, Fighters, Rangers, etc have feat support through the likes of Sharpshooter, GWM, etc.

Monks... don't get that. They can be augmented a little through some spell help, such as Divine Favor, but beyond that?

I don't see anything. Am I missing something?

I understand Monks are something of a DPR / Controller hybrid, I'm just trying to see if I can squeeze any more blood from the stone here.

4 elements (fangs of fire snake) + Fighter 2 + magic innate (hex)

It's a ki dump but at level 7+ we get 100 average damage before acc or crits on Nova rounds. Decent enough.

[LudicSavant]

Capitalizing on Stunning Strike is where it's at.

What you wanna do is start punting people through hazard effects while they auto-fail several saves due to being stunned, not to mention handing out Advantage to everyone. As an Open Hand Monk you can make them auto-fail against your knockback effect to just punt them out of the area and back in again (thus getting both the "enters" and "ends turn" damage). You get to do this for not one but two turns every time you land a stun (since stuns last until the END of your NEXT turn).

[Man_Over_Game]

Capitalizing on Stunning Strike is where it's at.

This is my recommendation. If you're upset that Bards don't do much damage, then you're going to have a hard time. Monks counter virtually everything that's not a melee combatant, and can use Stunning Strike on the ones that are, which is designed to counter their squishiness and damage issues.

But if damage is a major concern:

Hunter's Mark (2 levels into Ranger, pick up Duelist fighting style)
Barbarian Rage (would need a specialized Strength build)
Sentinel
Mage Slayer
Martial Adept (or 3 levels into Fighter for Battlemaster), to knock an enemy prone and get advantage on 3 attacks.

Or literally just level up. Monks scale much better than almost any other melee class, since they get more Ki points AND the scaling on their fists will outdamage anybody else's weapons.

[stoutstien]

There is a single magic items that boosts monks damage I can think of . Insignia of the claw- +1 damage and attack

[LudicSavant]

I see a lot of mention of feats, but if you're playing with point buy then a Monk's going to basically have all their ASIs spoken for until level 16 (or even later if you multiclassed). Little will be more beneficial than simply raising your main stats as a Monk.

Elven Accuracy is a good one, since it doesn't delay your Dexterity/Wisdom progression (and because you should be getting Advantage quite a lot). And VHumans can sneak in one at the beginning. But other than that... you're generally better off just pumping your main stats and stockpiling more ki.

Also, be careful with bonus action damage boosters; you need a few rounds of hitting the same enemy in order for Hex to make up the cost of losing a Flurry.

Also some general Monk things that some people don't seem to be aware of:
- Thanks to the new errata, you can auto-succeed on grappling and shoving people prone when they get stunned, even if you dumped Strength.
- You should absolutely be using a Versatile Monk weapon in two hands; it doesn't interfere with your ability to punch and kick things.
- You WILL feel it if you slow down your ki progression. It's not difficult to use up several ki a round, so you can basically always use more.
- Ignoring Stunning Strike is like pretending that a Samurai's Fighting Spirit doesn't improve DPR. Seriously, it matters how you utilize it and makes a big difference to the DPR math not just for yourself, but potentially your entire party. You can rack up triple digits with hazard combos and the like.

[Man_Over_Game]

I see a lot of mention of feats, but if you're playing with point buy then a Monk's going to basically have all their ASIs spoken for until level 16 (or even later if you multiclassed). Little will be more beneficial than simply raising your main stats as a Monk.

Elven Accuracy is a good one, since it doesn't delay your Dexterity/Wisdom progression (and because you should be getting Advantage quite a lot). And VHumans can sneak in one at the beginning. But other than that... you're generally better off just pumping your main stats and stockpiling more ki.

Also, be careful with bonus action damage boosters; you need a few rounds of hitting the same enemy in order for Hex to make up the cost of losing a Flurry.

Also some general Monk things that some people don't seem to be aware of:
- Thanks to the new errata, you can auto-succeed on grappling and shoving people prone when they get stunned, even if you dumped Strength.
- You should absolutely be using a Versatile Monk weapon in two hands; it doesn't interfere with your ability to punch and kick things.
- You WILL feel it if you slow down your ki progression. It's not difficult to use up several ki a round, so you can basically always use more.
- Ignoring Stunning Strike is like pretending that a Samurai's Fighting Spirit doesn't improve DPR. Seriously, it matters how you utilize it and makes a big difference to the DPR math not just for yourself, but potentially your entire party. You can rack up triple digits with hazard combos and the like.

On that note, nothing takes more priority than maxing out Dexterity.

Most classes, when they take an ASI, only get +1-+2 damage per round (as they only attack 1-2 times). However, a Monk gets anywhere from 2-4 attacks per round, getting +1 damage to each of those attacks from a single ASI. Maxing out your Dexterity to a +5 modifier is the first major goal of any Monk.

[Amechra]

Monks can abuse Sharpshooter if they go Kensei - you have to wait until you get Sharpen The Blade at 11th (3 ki to get +3 to attack and damage with a weapon for a minute is pretty useful, I'd say.)

[Nagog]

I've always loved the combo of Druid/Monk. Monks already get a lot of control options, adding spells like Entangle and Spike Growth into the mix can give you insane area control damage. Way of the Open Palm also allows you to essentially throw people around and knock them prone, so throwing somebody into a Spike Growth will wreck house. Also, depending on how your DM rules (there's a thread somewhere here hotly debating the matter), Flame Blade may be able to be used for both of your Attacks, if not for your Flurry of Blows. If that doesn't work, Shillelagh will work on a Monk's quarterstaff to up it's damage to a 1d8 in the lower levels where your Unarmed Strike doesn't quite reach that level, or for when you need magic weapons for DR and haven't reached that milestone for monks either.
You could also dip into Paladin to use your Druid spell slots as Smites, considering Smites don't use concentration (most druid spells do), and you can add a Smite to any attack you make, including crits, after rolling. With the large volume of attacks Monks can make, you have a much higher chance to crit and double a Smite's damage output.

So all in all, there really isn't a reliable way to boost damage for a monk without multiclassing, likely due to their quick scaling, as a flat boost would quickly become trivial, and a scaling boost would outshine many classes that focus on dealing damage, like Barbarians and Paladins.

[JNAProductions]

You already have a 1d8 Quarterstaff, and Flame Blade (ignoring the argument about whether or not you can attack twice with it) is not a Monk weapon, so you cannot use a Bonus Action to attack afterwards.

[Nagog]

You already have a 1d8 Quarterstaff, and Flame Blade (ignoring the argument about whether or not you can attack twice with it) is not a Monk weapon, so you cannot use a Bonus Action to attack afterwards.

The regular attack doesn't need to be a monk weapon. The RAW listing is "Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn", so you could take the attack action with a rusty spoon and then punch the baddies with your Flurry.

[JNAProductions]

You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield:

-You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
-You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.
-When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. For example, if you take the Attack action and attack with a quarterstaff, you can also make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, assuming you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn.

Bolded the relevant bit.

[RSP]

Pure Monk: get a Flametongue Short Sword for +2d6 Fire damage.

Multi-Class Warlock 2 or 3, get either 2 short rest castings of Hex (which each last an hour), or cast Shadow Blade, which, as a Simple Weapon, counts as a Monk Weapon.

Combine the Hex multi with the Flametongue and you have a Monk 5/Warlock 2, doing

2x: 1d6+mod+3d6 (~17-18)
BA Attacks: 1d6+mod+1d6 (~10-11)

Most of that doubles on crits so it benefits nicely from Stunning Strike. Plus, if going Shadow Monk, you’ll want the 2 levels of Warlock for Devil’s Sight anyway.

[Amechra]

Bolded the relevant bit.

Fun fact: That restriction only applies to Unarmored Defense, Martial Arts, and Unarmored Movement. You can use Flurry of Blows in full plate while wielding a greatsword if that's what you really want to do.

[JNAProductions]

Fun fact: That restriction only applies to Unarmored Defense, Martial Arts, and Unarmored Movement. You can use Flurry of Blows in full plate while wielding a greatsword if that's what you really want to do.

Neat. But losing your movement and AC ain’t worth it, methinks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Bolded the relevant bit.
Martial Arts does, but Flurry doesn't. A Lizardfolk Fighter/Monk (say) could wear plate and swing twice with a greatsword + GWM, then Flurry to bite twice for 1d6+Str each time.

[Amechra]

Neat. But losing your movement and AC ain’t worth it, methinks.

Dip a level in Barbarian, run your AC off of Con, then use a shield? I mean, you're already losing those goodies thanks to your weapon, you might as well grab a shield too.

[JNAProductions]

Dip a level in Barbarian, run your AC off of Con, then use a shield? I mean, you're already losing those goodies thanks to your weapon, you might as well grab a shield too.

What are you gaining from Monk then?

Just take PAM at Fighter 4 and use Dueling with it.

[Man_Over_Game]

What are you gaining from Monk then?

Just take PAM at Fighter 4 and use Dueling with it.

Barbarian with Mobile and Polearm Master, using shield and spear.

Like Monk, but less pansy.

[Zetakya]

It's not really about how much damage you do, it's about where you do it.

In other news, Monks with the Mage Slayer feat are hilarious.

All of the Dwarf racial feats are awesome as well. Especially Dwarven Fortitude, because you can Dodge as a bonus action rather than a main action.

[Yakmala]

Your problem is that you are defining "more damage" as damage you are doing personally.

When you stun an enemy, they are incapacitated. Your allies have advantage to hit them and the enemy automatically fails dexterity saves.

Your extra damage is the additional damage done by your allies that they wouldn't have done without you.

And with the enemy incapacitated, you often mitigate more damage than the party healer or tank would have.

[Jakinbandw]

Best way I've seen is to grab the feat that gives you expertise with athletics. Then your turn is all about grabbing things and running up walls and jumping off and letting go.

Specifically you try to grapple twice, use your bonus action to dash, run up a wall and let go. Your target takes 1d6 per 10feet of movement up you've carried them, then drops prone so everyone else in the party can join in on the fun.

(only works in places with big walls).

[Makorel]

The Reaction attack from PAM, and the fact that the BA PAM attack gets Dueling damage, means you'll be outputting more damage with it than your regular BA attack unless you Flurry. On a class that is highly mobile naturally, it means you can trigger a fair number of Reaction PAM attacks.

Are we assuming that the bonus action attack gets the increased martial arts die? Because I've heard it argued both ways that the Monk can or cannot use their martial arts damage in place of the D4. If the monk doesn't get the scaling dice then by the time they get to D8s their bonus action unarmed attack will match (and ever so slightly beat) polearm master's BA attack in terms of damage.

That being said the reaction attack still gets the monk a lot of damage but we need to consider how we are getting that reaction attack. The monk has to move out of range and wait for the enemy to come to them, so either they take Mobile in addition to Polearm Master or they use their ki to disengage. The former is uncomfortable on a class so reliant on statboosts and if we're spending Ki on the latter then this is no longer at will damage. Honestly I wouldn't recommend this except on a Drunk Monk or an Open Hand. The monk still has to spend a ki point to get out but now they don't have to choose between flurry and getting away to set up the reaction attack.

As an aside I was watching the Mike Mearls' Happy Fun Hour video someone posted in the Ranger thread and there's a part where Mearls talks about the Monk, saying the round by round damage is too low and his solution is to make future subclasses more powerful. So WoTC is aware of the issue to some degree and if I recall correctly Mearls' mentions in the happy fun hour video about the Soul Knife Monk subclass that one of the things it specifically does is add damage to the monk.

[RulesJD]

Are we assuming that the bonus action attack gets the increased martial arts die? Because I've heard it argued both ways that the Monk can or cannot use their martial arts damage in place of the D4. If the monk doesn't get the scaling dice then by the time they get to D8s their bonus action unarmed attack will match (and ever so slightly beat) polearm master's BA attack in terms of damage.

That being said the reaction attack still gets the monk a lot of damage but we need to consider how we are getting that reaction attack. The monk has to move out of range and wait for the enemy to come to them, so either they take Mobile in addition to Polearm Master or they use their ki to disengage. The former is uncomfortable on a class so reliant on statboosts and if we're spending Ki on the latter then this is no longer at will damage. Honestly I wouldn't recommend this except on a Drunk Monk or an Open Hand. The monk still has to spend a ki point to get out but now they don't have to choose between flurry and getting away to set up the reaction attack.

As an aside I was watching the Mike Mearls' Happy Fun Hour video someone posted in the Ranger thread and there's a part where Mearls talks about the Monk, saying the round by round damage is too low and his solution is to make future subclasses more powerful. So WoTC is aware of the issue to some degree and if I recall correctly Mearls' mentions in the happy fun hour video about the Soul Knife Monk subclass that one of the things it specifically does is add damage to the monk.

Nope. When we did the full math out we left the PAM bonus as a d4. The reason why it out-damages the Monk normal bonus action attack is because it does benefit from the Dueling fighting style. So the d4 effectively becomes a d8 (2.5 average damage turns into 4.5). So eventually the Monk unarmed attack does outdamage the PAM BA attack, but by that level you've presumably picked up a magical quarterstaff so the damage immediately tilts back in favor of PAM.

13 Str Monk with a level of Barbarian (Rage) and Fighter (Dueling) that gets gauntlets of ogre was the best average damage output. But this was pre-Xanathar so I don't know if something like a Hexblade would have better results.

[JNAProductions]

Nope. When we did the full math out we left the PAM bonus as a d4. The reason why it out-damages the Monk normal bonus action attack is because it does benefit from the Dueling fighting style. So the d4 effectively becomes a d8 (2.5 average damage turns into 4.5). So eventually the Monk unarmed attack does outdamage the PAM BA attack, but by that level you've presumably picked up a magical quarterstaff so the damage immediately tilts back in favor of PAM.

13 Str Monk with a level of Barbarian (Rage) and Fighter (Dueling) that gets gauntlets of ogre was the best average damage output. But this was pre-Xanathar so I don't know if something like a Hexblade would have better results.

But what are you gaining from Monk?

[Zetakya]

If you do the PAM thing with a Spear the Spear is a Monk Weapon and so does d10

[JNAProductions]

If you do the PAM thing with a Spear the Spear is a Monk Weapon and so does d10

Only on the main attacks-it's still a d4 on the butt attack.

And that's only at VERY high levels.

[Man_Over_Game]

If you do the PAM thing with a Spear the Spear is a Monk Weapon and so does d10

The overall stance on how PAM interacts with other modifications (from Crawford) is that the damage die is determined by the least general source (which JC considers from PAM, as 1d4 is not referenced anywhere else in relation to the applicable weapons), but the special BA attack itself is designed to copy attributes on the base weapon.


For example, Shillelagh can be cast on a Quarterstaff, changing the type of damage the base weapon does. PAM can make a Bonus Action attack with those same properties, but it has to use its specific 1d4 die.
A similar example would have a Monk treat the Quarterstaff, and both attacks with it, as Monk Weapons, but is still restricted to using the 1d4 from PAM in order to be eligible to spend that Bonus Action feature.


I think the reasoning behind his ruling is that melee weapons, by default, use Strength for their modifier. In a way, the BA attack effectively is treated as something like "Copy the base weapon's attributes, but deal 1d4 damage with this attack".

[RulesJD]

But what are you gaining from Monk?

It's only a 1-2 level dip, so literally everything else that makes someone want to play a Monk? This build isn't to cause the most damage, it's to cause the most damage as primarily a Monk.

[MeeposFire]

Fun fact: That restriction only applies to Unarmored Defense, Martial Arts, and Unarmored Movement. You can use Flurry of Blows in full plate while wielding a greatsword if that's what you really want to do.

Yes though remember unless you are a race that gets an unarmed attack that deals decent damage you will be restricted to 1+str damage on those flurry attacks.

[Nhorianscum]

Ignoring the bit where 4eX/Fi2-3 *has a 3 digit NOVA damage* at 7+ and competes to 20 with 5th level spell access (no really after finally playing 4eMo I can honestly say I now love this subclass)

Every other path sans Kensie just instakills things at 17+ with my personal favorite being the UA "anger of a gentle soul".

It's a long wait but there's not much of a point to investing past AS+ dueling + innate for damage on any of these as any monk is still clocking in at 78-82 average nova damage at XL7. Hexcurse + hex isn't worth the turns or the MAD but we hit 96 and 118 with that at xl8.

Not certain why we're talking about lowering damage with barb...

Edit: This post came out awkward, apologies

[Man_Over_Game]

Ignoring the bit where 4eX/Fi2-3 *has a 3 digit NOVA damage* at 7+ and competes to 20 with 5th level spell access (no really after finally playing 4eMo I can honestly say I now love this subclass)

Every other path sans Kensie just instakills things at 17+ with my personal favorite being the UA "anger of a gentle soul".

It's a long wait but there's not much of a point to investing past AS+ dueling + innate for damage on any of these as any monk is still clocking in at 78-82 average nova damage at XL7. Hexcurse + hex isn't worth the turns or the MAD but we hit 96 and 118 with that at xl8.

Not certain why we're talking about lowering damage with barb...

I think the build people are recommending is something like 2 Barbarian, 18 Monk, going something like Drunken Master. Focusing on Strength instead of Dexterity as your primary stat gets you +2 damage to each hit, or +6-+8 damage per round past the first round with Flurry.

It makes you good against bosses (as you have Rage now, for half of most of the damage you'll ever take), but your AC will be terrible and everything will hit you. Better at higher levels than it is at lower levels. Bonus points if you're a Dwarf with Dwarven Fortitude, though, as that means you'll heal 1d12+Con HP and Dodge as a Bonus Action.

[Nhorianscum]

I think the build people are recommending is something like 2 Barbarian, 18 Monk, going something like Drunken Master. Focusing on Strength instead of Dexterity as your primary stat gets you +2 damage to each hit, or +6-+8 damage per round past the first round with Flurry.

It makes you good against bosses (as you have Rage now, for half of most of the damage you'll ever take), but your AC will be terrible and everything will hit you. Better at higher levels than it is at lower levels. Bonus points if you're a Dwarf with Dwarven Fortitude, though, as that means you'll heal 1d12+Con HP and Dodge as a Bonus Action.

I like barbmonkian on tortle's named Raphiel. They're just not my go to for shredder dpr.

[jaappleton]

I like barbmonkian on tortle's named Raphiel. They're just not my go to for shredder dpr.

Unsure if I should tell you to stop or keep going.

[tKUUNK]

Your problem is that you are defining "more damage" as damage you are doing personally.

Yes, I agree with Yakmala's post. Although we're both sort of dodging the point of this thread...upping MONK damage... a lot of the carnage this class contributes is secondary.

Monks are able to criss-cross the melee almost at will, to:

take sudden pressure off friendly casters / ranged attackers so they can concentrate on offense
neutralize problem enemies with stun, shove?, trip?, darkness?, silence?
provide flanking if you're using that variant rule...
...possibly setting up a sneak attack from your rogue every round

So yeah, just crank the DEX and dream up ways to be a complete strategic nightmare for your enemies.

Lots of good options for upping monk damage already suggested....personally I'd consider a war cleric 1 dip for divine favor (concentration tho, right?), or mayyybe barbarian 2 for rage DR + reckless attack. Eight attack rolls in a round = fun. sentinel is also very tempting for the added damage and control.

[LudicSavant]

Your problem is that you are defining "more damage" as damage you are doing personally.

When you stun an enemy, they are incapacitated. Your allies have advantage to hit them and the enemy automatically fails dexterity saves.

Your extra damage is the additional damage done by your allies that they wouldn't have done without you.

It's stunning how many people don't get this and end up taking 50 "selfish" damage over 100 "unselfish" damage.

[Amechra]

It's stunning how many people don't get this and end up taking 50 "selfish" damage over 100 "unselfish" damage.

What's even worse is that you get some people like my old group who rated things almost entirely on how much damage they dealt. Bards were a bad class, Shocking Grasp was a bad cantrip because it couldn't be your primary combat strategy...

---

That brings up another related question - how can you build a Monk so that their allies can push out more damage? My first thought is Way of the Four Elements - Clench of the North Wind is a short-rest version of Hold Person, and paralysis is stunned's hefty, "melee attacks are critical hits" big brother. It does require that you're fighting humanoids, though.

[MrStabby]

On a more "ask your DM" level, how would people rule the Ravnica backgrounds interacting with the 4 elements monk or the shadow monk spellcasting? Would you be happy to allow these monks to swap their spells out? I could see for example a high level monk with a lot of animated skeletons being pretty solid in the damage department.

[Nhorianscum]

What's even worse is that you get some people like my old group who rated things almost entirely on how much damage they dealt. Bards were a bad class, Shocking Grasp was a bad cantrip because it couldn't be your primary combat strategy...

---

That brings up another related question - how can you build a Monk so that their allies can push out more damage? My first thought is Way of the Four Elements - Clench of the North Wind is a short-rest version of Hold Person, and paralysis is stunned's hefty, "melee attacks are critical hits" big brother. It does require that you're fighting humanoids, though.

I'm confused. The highest damage route is also the route with the most control/party support? (North wind is a terrible example for 4e when MASS FLIGHT is a thing the subclass gets at 11 but still) Sounds about right? Why is this a problem?

Our main multi's for jacking monk damage are... rouge, ranger, and fighter? Which are all known for adding spades of utility in/out of combat?

I understand that folks are also complaining about KI usage on damage over Stun (IE selfish play) but on a Nova round we only need to stick one stun, past that our Ki is just laying there, useless until the next round.


On a more "ask your DM" level, how would people rule the Ravnica backgrounds interacting with the 4 elements monk or the shadow monk spellcasting? Would you be happy to allow these monks to swap their spells out? I could see for example a high level monk with a lot of animated skeletons being pretty solid in the damage department.

The elemental disciplines are essentially SLA's in 5e not "spells known".

That said I'm a fan of rule of cool so... no, not allowing this one, no you cannot cast a frigging L8 spirit guardians every fight. Ohgodno. That's a bit too dirty.

[Zuras]

(...)
Bonus points if you're a Dwarf with Dwarven Fortitude, though, as that means you'll heal 1d12+Con HP and Dodge as a Bonus Action.

More bonus points if you pick up a Periapt of Wound Closure. That makes your healing (1d12+Con)*2 when you dodge, as you are spending a Hit Die.

[Helliquin]

I quite like ranger (3 - gloomstalker), monk (5- drunken), rogue (3 - assassin), then remainder in monk unless you need to go 4 in ranger and/or rogue for ASI.

Makes you very mobile, quite sneaky, pretty stabby (especially on crits - which are easier), and you roll a lot of dice. Decent AC for being naked, good initiative, pretty skilled, utility...

Spells being hunters mark and....? Cure wounds and zephyr strike (for more bonus movement)? Unsure about those. And you get the gloomstalker disguise self.

[Amechra]

I'm confused. The highest damage route is also the route with the most control/party support? (North wind is a terrible example for 4e when MASS FLIGHT is a thing the subclass gets at 11 but still) Sounds about right? Why is this a problem?

I don't know about the most - if you're playing Monk to disrupt casters (for example), I'd take Drunken Fist (it's stupidly difficult to pin you down if you flurry, and you can redirect melee attacks into casters) or Shadow (Silence makes spellcasters cry like mimes) over Four Elements. Four Elements just happens to be the nova monk - seriously, you're burning your points twice as fast as any other monk if you want to get the full benefit of your features.


More bonus points if you pick up a Periapt of Wound Closure. That makes your healing (1d12+Con)*2 when you dodge, as you are spending a Hit Die.

Don't forget Durable, so that you heal at least 4*Con when you dodge. Which is important, since most of your hit dice are actually d8s.

[Nhorianscum]

I don't know about the most - if you're playing Monk to disrupt casters (for example), I'd take Drunken Fist (it's stupidly difficult to pin you down if you flurry, and you can redirect melee attacks into casters) or Shadow (Silence makes spellcasters cry like mimes) over Four Elements. Four Elements just happens to be the nova monk - seriously, you're burning your points twice as fast as any other monk if you want to get the full benefit of your features.

Oh that was a general statement over DnD as a whole. It's just a thing where the more utility a thing has the more damage it does FSR. This applies to Monk subs across the board. (Having played a drunken master 14/forge cleric 1 named Chakie Jan I disagree on the sub being good). In this case the "damage build" is just the common monk damage multi's (rouge 3, Fi2, Ra3)

------------past this is sillyness-----------

Honestly if I'm building a dude to screw with casters I'm probably rolling a sorcerer or a wizard :p

Not going to go super off track on this but I'm pretty sure 4e gets not damage things. IE I bloody well know it and they cost Ki for effects ranging from comparable to shadow monk to ohgodhe'sspammingwallofstone or holyhellbirdman. This isn't to put down any other monk sub, this is however a thread about monk damage so my focus lies on the Nova monk. (Who I have discussed putting action surge on to burn even more ki/turn, clearly the consumption is not an issue in my mind).

In generally I would argue that the ability to invest all resources in one turn is better than not having that ability given increased returns over the low cost ability. Again back the the flight thing... 3+n ki for flight vs a fixed 2 ki for a suite of greatmazing 2nd level spells may not be comparable directly but I would argue that the flight is more efficent in a party. 2nd level slots are plentiful 6th-8th level slots are narrow. This is my argument for 4e as a utility build.

[MonkeyIke]

Keep in mind of what type of DM you have and how realistically are your chances of getting the certain items to make your build complete. I've been playing a barbarian/monk for two years. Any time he asks what magic items we are looking for or would like to get I usually say either gauntlets or belt of strength. Two years later they finally show up and he gave it to the cleric.

[Amechra]

I think you're misreading some bits of the Four Elements Monk - they can't pick up Wall of Stone and the like until 17th level, and you can't multitarget with Ride The Wind until you hit 13th level. That being said, I question whether their nova ability is good enough to make up for burning out your Flurry-and-Stun juice, which is supposed to last you 3-5 encounters¹.

The real question is whether or not a Monk adds their unarmored speed bonus to their fly speed in Gaseous Form, in which case you are the speediest cloud ever.

¹ For a while I was confused at some things I saw about the Monk (mainly that the damage scales poorly at higher levels), and then I realized it was because both of the DMs for my old group really loved handing out short rests after 1-2 encounters. Mostly because they wanted Warlocks to be more like full casters, rather than the weird half-caster thing they actually are.

EDIT: I need to take proficiency in reading comprehension, honestly.

Ooh, pick up a Bard buddy with Catnap! Moar short rests!

[Nhorianscum]

I think you're misreading some bits of the Four Elements Monk - they can't pick up Wall of Stone and the like until 17th level, and you can't multitarget with Ride The Wind until you hit 13th level. That being said, I question whether their nova ability is good enough to make up for burning out your Flurry-and-Stun juice, which is supposed to last you 3-5 encounters¹.

The real question is whether or not a Monk adds their unarmored speed bonus to their fly speed in Gaseous Form, in which case you are the speediest cloud ever.

¹ For a while I was confused at some things I saw about the Monk (mainly that the damage scales poorly at higher levels), and then I realized it was because both of the DMs for my old group really loved handing out short rests after 1-2 encounters. Mostly because they wanted Warlocks to be more like full casters, rather than the weird half-caster thing they actually are.

EDIT: I need to take proficiency in reading comprehension, honestly.

Ooh, pick up a Bard buddy with Catnap! Moar short rests!

Oh nah. I'm fully aware of when the sub gets its crazier abilities. You gain new stance levels at 3, 6, 11, and 17. I'd comment on the 2nd stance level but do I really need to? The non-spells in that tier are friggin nutso craycray, also shootouts to friggin gust of wind for 1 ki point.

I'm assuming the 3-5 combats/rest thing is a joke?. On the off chance it's not remember that just because we can burn everything doesn't mean we should? Options are good regardless.

(The real question is will your DM let you run on maelstrom!?!)

[Amechra]

Oh nah. I'm fully aware of when the sub gets its crazier abilities. You gain new stance levels at 3, 6, 11, and 17. I'd comment on the 2nd stance level but do I really need to? The non-spells in that tier are friggin nutso craycray, also shootouts to friggin gust of wind for 1 ki point.

I'm assuming the 3-5 combats/rest thing is a joke?. On the off chance it's not remember that just because we can burn everything doesn't mean we should? Options are good regardless.

(The real question is will your DM let you run on maelstrom!?!)

That was a typo - should be 2-3 combats/rest. Also, spoken like a true non-pyromaniac ;).

[Nhorianscum]

That was a typo - should be 2-3 combats/rest. Also, spoken like a true non-pyromaniac ;).

(Oh don't get me wrong. I'm almost certainly burning everything. It's just good to perception check yo)