Character Concept: Karl Saigun - the Atheist Cleric of Knowledge

[Cikomyr]

Lauzoriel was a success, but I realized I disliked failing knowledge checks to know or realize stuff. So I elected to build an Int-based character, but none of the Wizard tradition was to my liking.

So I thought I'd prefer a Cleric of the Knowledge Domain, and I asked a special dispensation to my GM to shift the character's spellcasting stat from Wisdom to Intelligence.

He said yes. But he will shift the Saving Throw proeficiency from Wisdom to Int, and I accepted that.

So, with the idea that I would have a Knowledge Beast with divine power as my character, I got thinking about the concept, and I came up with the idea of a Scholar/Descartes type of thinker, or perhaps an archaeologist. Someone who worships the very concept of Knowledge rather than a God..

... And then came the idea. Why not an Atheist Cleric?

Someone who acknowledge the Super Powerful Outsiders who intervene in the World, sure... But should they be worshipped? They can arise and die, should they be truly God's?

Plus, I like the comedic flavor of an atheist cleric.

I was thinking Human race, perhaps the variant human to get the extra feat for Expertise to a 3rd knowledge skill, in addition to the original 2 given by Knowledge Domain.

Any other suggestion? I know cleric is pretty good to start with.

[Kane0]

Would you be taking a Rogue dip for extra expertise or keeping straight cleric?

[Composer99]

Karl Saigun - the Atheist Cleric of Knowledge

I see what you did there.

[Cikomyr]

Would you be taking a Rogue dip for extra expertise or keeping straight cleric?

I considered it, but I think I will stick with straight cleric. I don't want to push the gimmick to the point of ineptitude either. Full cleric is powerful enough that it can afford a bit of quirkiness.

Any feat suggestion besides "gets expertise to a skill"?

[ProsecutorGodot]

He said yes. But he will shift the Saving Throw proeficiency from Wisdom to Int, and I accepted that.
That's pretty rough. Every class has a Minor (Str, Int, Cha) and a Greater (Dex, Con, Wis) saving throw proficiency. The Greater tiered ability scores are commonly used incredibly valuable proficiencies that will defend you against a myriad of effects, whereas the Minor ones are very uncommon and will only usually be worth having in very specific scenarios.

Giving up Wisdom for Intelligence saving throw proficiency is huge. Your saving throw proficiencies become Int/Cha, both uncommon saving throws. Both pretty bad.

You're already going to have expertise in two knowledge based skills through your domain so I'm going to immediately propose Resilient Wisdom or Constitution as your VHuman feat choice.

That mechanical hangup aside, I like idea behind the character. As long as it's played up on the comedic aspect it can work, because no one is going to take him seriously in a world where the gods have physically been present for world shaping events, assuming you're playing in a setting where such a thing has happened (most settings).

Paladins are the ones who can get off worshipping the idea, a Cleric needs that god for their powers.

I'm excited to see how he would explain away a successful Divine Intervention.

[Kane0]

Well, it was said he would have no problem calling them say 'powers' instead of gods, since they are demonstrably a thing and actually immensely powerful, but just not gods because they can in fact be 'killed' and have actual, if negligible, limits to their abilities.

Edit: But yes, Lucky or Resilient would be a priority with two bad saves.

[8wGremlin]

I'm excited to see how he would explain away a successful Divine Intervention.

The universe just intervenes, a cosmic alignment, a stellar incident, planetary alignment and a Solar or Planetar turn up and help?

[Particle_Man]

I guess it comes down to believing the universe was there before the gods showed up, and he wants to know all about the universe in all of its glory, including its "billions upon billions" of stars, everyone one of which might be a sun to someone.

If he believes that gods are created out of the beliefs of believers, then he could accept that powerful beings called gods exist and that they did not create the universe.

Assuming that he is correct, some god of knowedge might give him spells even without direct worship.

If he is incorrect, some demon or devil might be leading the character down the garden path to his doom.

[Spore]

I am pretty sure there is an English word better at describing 'when there is an (omni/oligo)potent being protecting us why is there still bad stuff happening' than atheist.

I recall there is a philosophy that acknowledges the possibility of divine beings while still worshipping reason.' That philosophical fineprint aside, I enjoy the fact that the god of secrets or knowledge still provides your divine spells.

[Zhorn]

Karl Saigun - the Atheist Cleric of KnowledgeI see what you did there.

I'm a little lost on this one. I get the intent of the joke, just the punchline is a bit of a misrepresentation. Not to side track too much, but Carl Sagan has been pretty open about not being an atheist (not in favour of theism, just the label isn't a view he identified with).

The concept that you're going for I'm all in favour of and think it would be fun to roleplay.

[Millstone85]

Paladins are the ones who can get off worshipping the idea, a Cleric needs that god for their powers.The DMG and XGtE make it pretty clear that's not true.

I would say that, yes, the 5e default is:


cleric
god(s)


druid
force(s)


paladin
philosophy


But any of these classes could get power from any of these divine sources. Or a setting could impose a single divine source for all. I am pretty sure that the druids and paladins of the Forgotten Realms can't circumvent the gods.

[Laserlight]

Another possible build is to Knowledge Cleric 1, Divination Wizard X.

Armor proficiency, Guidance, and some skills from Cleric, then more skills and Portents from Wizard.

I think "these beings aren't gods" in this context gets hung up on "yes, everyone else calls them gods, but MY definition of god is different from everyone else's" but presumably you won't run into too many philosopher orcs.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ritual Caster (Wizard) seems pretty fitting.

[Max_Killjoy]

Concept trips a bit in the mechanics due to skills being oddly locked in the entertainer and the sneak.

[Griswold]

Someone who acknowledge the Super Powerful Outsiders who intervene in the World, sure... But should they be worshipped? They can arise and die, should they be truly God's?

This sounds almost identical to the philosophy of the Athar from the Planescape setting.

[Cikomyr]

This sounds almost identical to the philosophy of the Athar from the Planescape setting.

I think I heard of those, but I never really studied the Planescape setting in great details. So it's very possible they influenced the idea of a character.

To everyone else: I take your suggestion of Resilient to heart, and will get myself a better Wisdom saving throw.

[Brookshw]

I am pretty sure there is an English word better at describing 'when there is an (omni/oligo)potent being protecting us why is there still bad stuff happening' than atheist.


I don't know about a "word", but its generally called "the problem of evil" (with some variants).

Anyway, just came here to link this (https://www.nuklearpower.com/2005/08/11/episode-585-a-lofty-goal/).

[Cikomyr]

I'm a little lost on this one. I get the intent of the joke, just the punchline is a bit of a misrepresentation. Not to side track too much, but Carl Sagan has been pretty open about not being an atheist (not in favour of theism, just the label isn't a view he identified with).

The concept that you're going for I'm all in favour of and think it would be fun to roleplay.

I just researched to make sure, and I think the reason he denied the label was because the definition of Atheism he used is one that is commonly considered wrong nowaday, and he considered that too strong a position to consider himself that.

Any further research or debate will have to be done via IM or another medium than this thread however.

[Cikomyr]

Anyway, just came here to link this (https://www.nuklearpower.com/2005/08/11/episode-585-a-lofty-goal/).

This may have been a slightly more influential source than I am comfortable to admit publicly.

[Millstone85]

Anyway, just came here to link this (https://www.nuklearpower.com/2005/08/11/episode-585-a-lofty-goal/)."And if I want to remain competitive in this market, I can't afford to show favorites" is at most a cynical approach to pantheon worship.

[Particle_Man]

Mind you if you are in a campaign where the int save gets targeted int save ain’t so bad. Perhaps buddy up with a ranger with favoured enemy aberration?

[Cikomyr]

Mind you if you are in a campaign where the int save gets targeted int save ain’t so bad. Perhaps buddy up with a ranger with favoured enemy aberration?

Nanana, well be playing an Urban Crime Game, so there shall be wisdom saving throws.

Ill just take the Alternate Human, and get Resilience on wisdom saving throws from the get go.

Unless it's worth taking standard human and wait until level 4.. Hmm..

[Hail Tempus]

Hmm... given how D&D cosmology works, you'd have to be completely ignorant to be an atheist in that world. The gods in D&D aren't all-powerful and can be killed, occasionally, but that's true of the many of the (non mono-theistic) gods of real world mythology.

That is to say, you can call them something else, if you want, but they fit any reasonable definition of a "god".

You see this occasionally, where players try to apply real-world thinking (where the existence of gods is a matter of faith, to be decided on an individual basis) to a fictional world where divine beings who answer prayers and perform miracles objectively exist.

[Max_Killjoy]

Hmm... given how D&D cosmology works, you'd have to be completely ignorant to be an atheist in that world. The gods in D&D aren't all-powerful and can be killed, occasionally, but that's true of the many of the (non mono-theistic) gods of real world mythology.

That is to say, you can call them something else, if you want, but they fit any reasonable definition of a "god".

You see this occasionally, where players try to apply real-world thinking (where the existence of gods is a matter of faith, to be decided on an individual basis) to a fictional world where divine beings who answer prayers and perform miracles objectively exist.

"Atheism" in the context of this discussion could taken as shorthand for:

"Powers exist but I don't care."
"Powers exist but they don't deserve our worship or praise."
"Powers exist and I hate them."
Etc.

[Hail Tempus]

"Atheism" in the context of this discussion could taken as shorthand for:

"Powers exist but I don't care."
"Powers exist but they don't deserve our worship or praise."
"Powers exist and I hate them."
Etc. Sure. Though, those three attitudes lead to a pretty bad fate in the D&D afterlife. And I'm not even sure D&D gods require more than a very minor level of worship, and there are plenty of them who are are perfectly good and just, like Chauntea, Tyr, the Halfling pantheon etc.

I mean, D&D gods are basically a buffet table of choices. There's something for everyone.

[Cikomyr]

Sure. Though, those three attitudes lead to a pretty bad fate in the D&D afterlife. And I'm not even sure D&D gods require more than a very minor level of worship, and there are plenty of them who are are perfectly good and just, like Chauntea, Tyr, the Halfling pantheon etc.

I mean, D&D gods are basically a buffet table of choices. There's something for everyone.

I know. But there's still people who refuse that worship.

And "a pretty bad fate" is usually restricted to the Forgotten Realm cosmology with the Wall of Faithless. Other cosmology don't necessarily have worship as requirement for a good afterlife.

[Max_Killjoy]

Sure. Though, those three attitudes lead to a pretty bad fate in the D&D afterlife. And I'm not even sure D&D gods require more than a very minor level of worship, and there are plenty of them who are are perfectly good and just, like Chauntea, Tyr, the Halfling pantheon etc.

I mean, D&D gods are basically a buffet table of choices. There's something for everyone.

FR's "The Wall" is an aberration, and an abomination. It's all the more reason to NOT offer worship to the gods there. Toril would be far better off if the mortals there all rejected the gods en masse. But any version of "you will worship us or you will suffer" is pretty much extortion.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: This thread is very clearly and openly tap-dancing on the line of permissible topics, so I advise people to tread very carefully and avoid any reference or mention of real-world religion/lack thereof. Continue to keep it strictly fictional and referential to in-game topics, please.

[Hail Tempus]

FR's "The Wall" is an aberration, and an abomination. It's all the more reason to NOT offer worship to the gods there. Toril would be far better off if the mortals there all rejected the gods en masse. But any version of "you will worship us or you will suffer" is pretty much extortion. Maybe, but that's the lot of almost every mortal in the Forgotten Realms (YMMV on other worlds). Trying to say "you're not the boss of me" to the gods doesn't save you. It's like arguing against gravity.

[Justin Sane]

But he will shift the Saving Throw proeficiency from Wisdom to Int, and I accepted that.A slightly saner alternative would be to drop the Charisma Saving Throw proficiency instead - getting you Int and Wis, like a Wizard (or Druid, but the former is more relevant).

[Man_Over_Game]

A slightly saner alternative would be to drop the Charisma Saving Throw proficiency instead - getting you Int and Wis, like a Wizard (or Druid, but the former is more relevant).

Proficiency in Int Saving Throws are less valuable than Wisdom versions (as Wisdom is a lot more relevant and a lot more debilitating in most circumstances).

It could have been a tax implemented by the DM. "You get your shiny, but it'll cost you" kinda thing.

[Naanomi]

There are beings higher up the cosmological food chain than the Powers of the Outer Planes who may better fit what you are looking for in a ‘God’... beings with reasonable claims to true immortality, who have created some or all of existence... Overpowers (like AO), and at least 1-2 steps above him in the beings that create Cosmologies (like the Great Wheel) for fun

Of course such beings don’t need or want clerics or worshipers

You could always turn to the Far Realm for some Azathothian-Style entities as well

[Millstone85]

YMMV on other worldsIn 5e, the standard lore is that:
When a creature dies, its soul departs its body, leaves the Material Plane, travels through the Astral Plane, and goes to abide on the plane where the creature's deity resides. If the creature didn't worship a deity, its soul departs to the plane corresponding to its alignment.

[Sigreid]

Just a logic check. The idea that a God is omniscient, omnipotent and invulnerable is a relatively new concept. Not revering/trusting them is one thing. Denying they meet the setting definition of a God is another.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just a logic check. The idea that a God is omniscient, omnipotent and invulnerable is a relatively new concept. Not revering/trusting them is one thing. Denying they meet the setting definition of a God is another. I'd use lower case in that post to avoid Mod attention, and to also conform to standard English language usage. The capital first letter tends to refer to a person/proper name, etc, and that heads us in directions we aren't supposed to go.

---------

As to atheism in the Forgotten Realms: where the gods in Fearun (in-universe) are objectively real it would be an odd position to take, rather like not believing in the planets being up there in the heavens is for us today.

What is nice is that D&D 5e DMG provides a nice out in the Forces and Philosophies option (pages 10-13 in the DMG). Any player who prefers to have no truck with any deity in their fantasy RPG has plenty of options of Forces or Philosophies in their game if their RL position makes them not care for deities of any stripe.

The campaign that I currently DM uses that structure: the Forces of the game world are named with Capital Letters

Truth
Nature
Justice
Fire
Death
Life
Love
Storm
Earth
Water
War
Peace
Tolstoy
Air
Chaos
Law
Beer

and so on.

Granted, some of the sub cultures in my game world give a name to the god of fire, and anthropomorphize them, which is similar to how Vimulah was the embodiment of Flame in Empire of the Petal Throne (Barker, TSR, 1975). Ares as the personification of war (See Homer, The Iliad) would be a similar thing.

Clerics pick any of the above (or something similar that we agree on) as their source of Divine power

An even simpler way to deal with this is to only have the Domains be the forces and philosophies available. No extra work necessary. That would mean that there are a total of 10 Forces in the multiverse.

Life, Light, Trickery, Nature, Tempest, War, Arcana, Death (DMG), Forge, Grave Knowledge (I think Order from one of the more recent books would fall into this ...) (EDIT: thanks to Naanomi for catching that I'd missed Grave).

With that in mind, and your idea for this Karl karachter, Knowledge is a perfect fit for that approach to this edition of the game. It's a Thing with a capital T.

Go forth and do heroic things.

[Naanomi]

An even simpler way to deal with this is to only have the Domains be the forces and philosophies available. No extra work necessary. That would mean that there are a total of 10 Forces in the multiverse.

Life, Light, Trickery, Nature, Tempest, War, Arcana, Death (DMG), Forge, Knowledge (I think Order from one of the more recent books would fall into this ...) .
And Grave, you missed one

[KorvinStarmast]

And Grave, you missed one Heh, I ran out of fingers. (SCAG, righ?)

Years ago, we had a quest to revive a dead god.
The whole adventure was based on this song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icyPFsIcAV0).
Our DM was kinda awesome.
When we finished the quest, we got a small potion of very strong liquor that was basically a Raise Dead spell if one poured it down a dead character's throat.

EDIT:
Is this forum autocorrecting my posts?
Quest got switched to request and question.
Huh?

[Naanomi]

Heh, I ran out of fingers. (SCAG, righ?)
No, Arcana is from SCAG... Grave is with Forge in Xanathars

Order is in the Ravnica book

[KorvinStarmast]

No, Arcana is from SCAG... Grave is with Forge in Xanathars

Order is in the Ravnica book I am AFB, thanks. :smallsmile:

[Man_Over_Game]

Is this forum autocorrecting my posts?
Quest got switched to request and question.
Huh?

Not based on:

(SCAG, righ?)

This sounds more like:

very strong liquor

The real question then is, have you died recently?

[KorvinStarmast]

The real question then is, have you died recently? Hmm, I don't think so, but then, would I know if I had? :smalleek:

[Millstone85]

An amusing twist would be if any philosophy, popular enough to power clerics, had the potential to awaken as a god.

Even the belief that mortals should free themselves from the gods could eventually become personified, perhaps as a promethean archetype.

[KorvinStarmast]

An amusing twist would be if any philosophy, popular enough to power clerics, had the potential to awaken as a god.

Even the belief that mortals should free themselves from the gods could eventually become personified, perhaps as a promethean archetype. As an educated and reasonably well read person, that got a chuckle out of me.

Your garden variety murder hobo won't get it.

[Griswold]

There are beings higher up the cosmological food chain than the Powers of the Outer Planes who may better fit what you are looking for in a ‘God’... beings with reasonable claims to true immortality, who have created some or all of existence... Overpowers (like AO), and at least 1-2 steps above him in the beings that create Cosmologies (like the Great Wheel) for fun

As far as I am aware, Ao (and the other overdeities of spheres, like the Highgod) are only all-powerful when it comes to their particular crystal spheres. They're not cosmologically relevant. The Serpent is possibly an overpower, but lore doesn't depict it as much beyond being much more than an even greater deity of magic.

The only thing close to a mysterious, transcendent being with that level of power in D&D would be the Great Unknown. The Old Ones from Mystara are also meta-cosmologically powerful, but possibly less so.

[Cikomyr]

An amusing twist would be if any philosophy, popular enough to power clerics, had the potential to awaken as a god.

Even the belief that mortals should free themselves from the gods could eventually become personified, perhaps as a promethean archetype.

It certainly is a funny twist, but I think it would detract from Karl Saigun's love of knowledge above all else.

He's not an evangelical atheist. He just worships knowledge and it's potential for mortal races. The way he sees it, that knowledge does not cross over belief.

[Naanomi]

As far as I am aware, Ao (and the other overdeities of spheres, like the Highgod) are only all-powerful when it comes to their particular crystal spheres. They're not cosmologically relevant. The Serpent is possibly an overpower, but lore doesn't depict it as much beyond being much more than an even greater deity of magic.

The only thing close to a mysterious, transcendent being with that level of power in D&D would be the Great Unknown. The Old Ones from Mystara are also meta-cosmologically powerful, but possibly less so.
*warning, pre-5e lore*

AO has a boss, called only ‘A Luminous Being’... who may be an Old One/Ancient One/Eldest One, or may be an intermediary cosmic being of some kind. Those beings are implied (in a few places) to be the beings that create all Cosmologies, and do occasionally interfere in the Cosmologies they have made; for example, turning Anubis into a guardian of the corpses of dead Gods instead of just a normal deity; and having special monsters to get people from the Great Wheel to leave them alone if people start poking into their secrets