Shroud of Disintegration

[RNightstalker]

So, the obvious question is since no saving throw is mentioned, what's to stop someone from putting them on a living host? Obviously easier said than done, but RAW...

[Venger]

is this about the pf item? if so, it says "body" which specifies a dead creature. a living creature is not an eligible target, so that's why. what a crappy item.

[Crake]

is this about the pf item? if so, it says "body" which specifies a dead creature. a living creature is not an eligible target, so that's why. what a crappy item.

It's actually from the 3.5 SRD, pathfinder reduced it's cost by a decent chunk from the 6.6k gp it used to be. Rather useful for ensuring someone stays dead though, in a setting where true resurrection isn't exactly widely available.

[Particle_Man]

If there is a way to fool it into thinking the living person is a dead body? Well perhaps a high UMD roll could work if you convince the victim it gives you great power if it thinks you are a dead body. Call it the shroud of vecna and let the high umd dude kill themselves.

[Venger]

It's actually from the 3.5 SRD, pathfinder reduced it's cost by a decent chunk from the 6.6k gp it used to be. Rather useful for ensuring someone stays dead though, in a setting where true resurrection isn't exactly widely available.

huh. wonder why it didn't show up in my search? but lo, there it is. you can get a scroll or hire a spellcaster for a lot less money. since it's only single use, you're no worse off.


If there is a way to fool it into thinking the living person is a dead body? Well perhaps a high UMD roll could work if you convince the victim it gives you great power if it thinks you are a dead body. Call it the shroud of vecna and let the high umd dude kill themselves.

No. A body is a corpse. it and a character who is alive or undead are mutually exclusive.

[Particle_Man]

A paladin and a non-paladin are also mutually exclusive but a non-paladin with a high umd roll can use a holy avenger as if they were a paladin. Why can’t a non-corpse with a high umd roll use a shroud as if they were a corpse?

[Troacctid]

A paladin and a non-paladin are also mutually exclusive but a non-paladin with a high umd roll can use a holy avenger as if they were a paladin. Why can’t a non-corpse with a high umd roll use a shroud as if they were a corpse?
Because that's not something you can emulate with UMD?

[Venger]

A paladin and a non-paladin are also mutually exclusive but a non-paladin with a high umd roll can use a holy avenger as if they were a paladin. Why can’t a non-corpse with a high umd roll use a shroud as if they were a corpse?

Paladin is a class. You can emulate class features, ability scores, races, or alignments. "Corpse" is none of these things, so umd cannot allow you to mimic one.

[Particle_Man]

Well, turning it around, I guess one could use it as a way to determine whether someone was actually dead or only feigning death (I think Tome and Blood had the Feign Death spell). Could have changed the ending of Romeo and Juliet if they had had shrouds like that!

[Thurbane]

How about the Feign Death ACF in Exemplars of Evil? It fools pretty much everything apart from a Heal check into thinking you are dead? :smalltongue:

[Venger]

Well, turning it around, I guess one could use it as a way to determine whether someone was actually dead or only feigning death (I think Tome and Blood had the Feign Death spell). Could have changed the ending of Romeo and Juliet if they had had shrouds like that!
Got me there.

How about the Feign Death ACF in Exemplars of Evil? It fools pretty much everything apart from a Heal check into thinking you are dead? :smalltongue:

It does, at that. It's a weirdly high one, too. I don't know any pc who doesn't spend a few rounds bayoneting the wounding after the combat is done, so I'm not sure what the intended use for it was. Sure is flavorful though. Can you imagine how irritated they'd be if they tried to rez you ?

[Crake]

huh. wonder why it didn't show up in my search? but lo, there it is. you can get a scroll or hire a spellcaster for a lot less money. since it's only single use, you're no worse off.

I believe the idea is that it's useful for assassins who don't want to lug a body back to a spellcaster, they can just bring the shrouds, wrap their victim up, and poof, no more body, no easy raise dead to come back to life.

[Venger]

I believe the idea is that it's useful for assassins who don't want to lug a body back to a spellcaster, they can just bring the shrouds, wrap their victim up, and poof, no more body, no easy raise dead to come back to life.

assassins have umd, though. bag of holding works too

[Thurbane]

It does, at that. It's a weirdly high one, too. I don't know any pc who doesn't spend a few rounds bayoneting the wounding after the combat is done, so I'm not sure what the intended use for it was. Sure is flavorful though. Can you imagine how irritated they'd be if they tried to rez you ?

I have that ACF on my current character. I swapped out Evasion because I wear heavy armor.

I can just imagine how frustrated my DM is going to get first time I use it, when he realizes what kind of immunities it grants: mind-affecting spells and abilities, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, ability drain, negative levels, and death effects. The rest of the party will be wondering "Why did the Rogue collapse unconscious just as we were about the fight these wights?". :smalltongue:

[Venger]

I have that ACF on my current character. I swapped out Evasion because I wear heavy armor.

I can just imagine how frustrated my DM is going to get first time I use it, when he realizes what kind of immunities it grants: mind-affecting spells and abilities, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, ability drain, negative levels, and death effects. The rest of the party will be wondering "Why did the Rogue collapse unconscious just as we were about the fight these wights?". :smalltongue:

Interesting choice. What did you swap it out as? I'd basically always rather have invisible fist or ray deflection if I were dumping an extra evasion.

Do you still get a slice of xp if you were playing possum the whole fight? :smalltongue:

[Thurbane]

Interesting choice. What did you swap it out as? I'd basically always rather have invisible fist or ray deflection if I were dumping an extra evasion.

Do you still get a slice of xp if you were playing possum the whole fight? :smalltongue:

I was trying for deflection, but the DM would only approve Feign Death.

[Jay R]

A paladin and a non-paladin are also mutually exclusive but a non-paladin with a high umd roll can use a holy avenger as if they were a paladin. Why can’t a non-corpse with a high umd roll use a shroud as if they were a corpse?

Because the corpse doesn't use the shrouds, any more than your enemy is using your sword when you hit him with it and he takes damage.

Your non-corpse with a high umd roll can use the shrouds, of course. She can put a dead body within the wraps, make a UMD roll, call out the command word, and the body will disintegrate.

[RNightstalker]

Well Feign Death doesn't provide a saving throw, but it does require a "willing" participate. Have an evil NPC infiltrate the group, "here let me cast this buff on you" to the unsuspecting PC with no ranks in spellcraft...

[Venger]

Well Feign Death doesn't provide a saving throw, but it does require a "willing" participate. Have an evil NPC infiltrate the group, "here let me cast this buff on you" to the unsuspecting PC with no ranks in spellcraft...

you still can't fool the item

[RNightstalker]

you still can't fool the item

"...at your option, this can be a cataleptic state that is impossible to distinguish from death..."

[Venger]

"...at your option, this can be a cataleptic state that is impossible to distinguish from death..."

Cool. You can't fool the item. You feigning death does not transform you into a corpse, which is the only legal target for this item. This, like all items, is keyed off objective reality.

[Crake]

assassins have umd, though. bag of holding works too

Bag of holding doesn't destroy the corpse though, and yeah, sure assassins can have UMD, but this is part of core 3.5, where the developers didn't really expect anyone and everyone who could afford it to max UMD because of how useful it was.

[Venger]

Bag of holding doesn't destroy the corpse though, and yeah, sure assassins can have UMD, but this is part of core 3.5, where the developers didn't really expect anyone and everyone who could afford it to max UMD because of how useful it was.

no, but it doesn't have to. if your npc spellcaster with disintegrate has a spin class and can't follow you to the person you need to kill, you can carry the corpse in the bag of holding to them at your convenience, or until you can buy a scroll.

the cool thing is, since the corpse exists and is whole, rezing does not work, because the body isn't destroyed, it's just not in the corpse's allies' possession, so it's like a mini purify water.

assassins... still have umd in "core 3.5" whatever that means. it's on their list of class skills. I guess you could build an assassin who spent his skill points stupidly, but same as I assume an assassin will max ranks in hide/ms, I assume he'll max ranks in umd which, like rogue before him, is his most important class feature. I know the designers are dumb, but they at least know magic > mundane. it's the guiding design principle of 3.x, so if a class has umd, I feel like it's reasonable to assume they'll maintain max ranks in it.

[Crake]

no, but it doesn't have to. if your npc spellcaster with disintegrate has a spin class and can't follow you to the person you need to kill, you can carry the corpse in the bag of holding to them at your convenience, or until you can buy a scroll.

the cool thing is, since the corpse exists and is whole, rezing does not work, because the body isn't destroyed, it's just not in the corpse's allies' possession, so it's like a mini purify water.

assassins... still have umd in "core 3.5" whatever that means. it's on their list of class skills. I guess you could build an assassin who spent his skill points stupidly, but same as I assume an assassin will max ranks in hide/ms, I assume he'll max ranks in umd which, like rogue before him, is his most important class feature. I know the designers are dumb, but they at least know magic > mundane. it's the guiding design principle of 3.x, so if a class has umd, I feel like it's reasonable to assume they'll maintain max ranks in it.

Back in early 3rd and 3.5, UMD wasn't so universally understood as a "must put max ranks" skill, and "spending skills stupidly" meant putting skill points into things that made no sense for a character. Also, most assassins didn't just have a wizard in their back pocket happy to just disintegrate random bodies left and right as apparently they do now, or at least at your table. In an era where things weren't expected to be universally available, and people didn't adhere to a meta on what things were "the best to take", an item like this, which allows someone to dispose of a body without any prior investment beyond knowing the command word, could definitely be seen as useful, even if it's incredibly niche.

[Venger]

Back in early 3rd and 3.5, UMD wasn't so universally understood as a "must put max ranks" skill, and "spending skills stupidly" meant putting skill points into things that made no sense for a character. Also, most assassins didn't just have a wizard in their back pocket happy to just disintegrate random bodies left and right as apparently they do now, or at least at your table. In an era where things weren't expected to be universally available, and people didn't adhere to a meta on what things were "the best to take", an item like this, which allows someone to dispose of a body without any prior investment beyond knowing the command word, could definitely be seen as useful, even if it's incredibly niche.

People didn't want spells in early 3.x? That's wild. I didn't know that.

hiring a spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm) is a standard thing anyone can buy, I don't have any special houserules in place to create this function. Even in a low magic setting where your gm stops you from buying anything, this item offers no utility over a nonmagical sausage grinder.

[Jay R]

People didn't want spells in early 3.x? That's wild. I didn't know that.

He didn't say that people didn't want spells, and he didn't say anything that can be twisted into that. This kind of comment does not further the conversation in any useful way.


hiring a spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm) is a standard thing anyone can buy, I don't have any special houserules in place to create this function.

Nobody walks into town carrying a body and says, "I'd like to hire you to dispose of a freshly-assassinated corpse, please." A tool an assassin can use when alone, immediately after the kill, has actual value.


Even in a low magic setting where your gm stops you from buying anything, this item offers no utility over a nonmagical sausage grinder.


A. A sausage grinder takes time. 200 pounds of corpse takes a *lot* of time.
B. A sausage grinder doesn't do very well on bones.
C. A sausage grinder doesn't dispose of a body; it merely turns it into an equivalent amount of ground meat.
D. Operating a sausage grinder often leaves your hands splashed in blood.

It doesn't erase evidence, it doesn't prevent resurrection, it takes too much time, and it leaves evidence on your hands. A sausage grinder simply does not replace instant disintegration for an assassin.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah i do agree.
It is a pretty nifty assasination tool in a mid level campaign.
Since its likely just the work of rounds to stab, wrap, and command

[Thurbane]

How does the pricing of a Shroud of Disintegration stack up against, say, a Skull Talisman of Disintegrate?

[Crake]

How does the pricing of a Shroud of Disintegration stack up against, say, a Skull Talisman of Disintegrate?

Well, considering that "whoever breaks the skull talisman is the target of the spell", I'm not sure they really work the same way. One is a disposal tool, the other is a suicide tool.

[Thurbane]

Well, considering that "whoever breaks the skull talisman is the target of the spell", I'm not sure they really work the same way. One is a disposal tool, the other is a suicide tool.

Good point! Like a cyanide pill for bad guys, then. :smalltongue:

[Particle_Man]

Well, considering that "whoever breaks the skull talisman is the target of the spell", I'm not sure they really work the same way. One is a disposal tool, the other is a suicide tool.

Oh so the skull talisman is one you might trick into unwittingly killing themselves with?

[RNightstalker]

Cool. You can't fool the item. You feigning death does not transform you into a corpse, which is the only legal target for this item. This, like all items, is keyed off objective reality.

Where do you find the definition of body=corpse? Maybe bad wording on WotC's part, but I don't see any reference that backs up your stance. The legal target for the item is body, not corpse.

[Crake]

Oh so the skull talisman is one you might trick into unwittingly killing themselves with?

I mean, yeah, I suppose so, like convincing someone to drink a potion of contagion?

[Venger]

Where do you find the definition of body=corpse? Maybe bad wording on WotC's part, but I don't see any reference that backs up your stance. The legal target for the item is body, not corpse.

You are being willfully obtuse. When a term isn't delineated in RAW, it defaults to its normal definition. Body means corpse. If they're referring to a living character, the term used in RAW is "creature." They didn't use that here, so they mean a corpse, not a creature.

[Crake]

You are being willfully obtuse. When a term isn't delineated in RAW, it defaults to its normal definition. Body means corpse. If they're referring to a living character, the term used in RAW is "creature." They didn't use that here, so they mean a corpse, not a creature.

I mean, just playing devils advocate here, but there are creatures who lack bodies, namely incorporeal creatures, so your statement isn't entirely correct, since there are creatures without bodies, and there are bodies without creatures, thus, since not all creatures have bodies, but this effect targets bodies, then it may affect creatures with bodies, but not those without.

[Jay R]

I mean, just playing devils advocate here, but there are creatures who lack bodies, namely incorporeal creatures, so your statement isn't entirely correct, since there are creatures without bodies, and there are bodies without creatures, thus, since not all creatures have bodies, but this effect targets bodies, then it may affect creatures with bodies, but not those without.

If you actually believe that the written rules is ambiguous, then it becomes a DM judgment call. I suspect that most DMs would rule that it means a dead body. I certainly would.

So if the question ever becomes real for you, then consult your DM. That's the only opinion that will matter. There's no point arguing an unclear rule on the internet.

[Also, it probably doesn't matter. An unconscious body is easily turned into a dead one. And you probably won't succeed in wrapping a conscious one without knocking him out first.]

[Venger]

I mean, just playing devils advocate here, but there are creatures who lack bodies, namely incorporeal creatures, so your statement isn't entirely correct, since there are creatures without bodies, and there are bodies without creatures, thus, since not all creatures have bodies, but this effect targets bodies, then it may affect creatures with bodies, but not those without.

Just playing normal person's advocate, but "body" is still not a discrete raw term.

Even with this houserule in place, there isn't a listed method for applying the cloak to an unwilling enemy.

[RNightstalker]

You are being willfully obtuse. When a term isn't delineated in RAW, it defaults to its normal definition. Body means corpse. If they're referring to a living character, the term used in RAW is "creature." They didn't use that here, so they mean a corpse, not a creature.

Not to be acute, but I do happen to have a body, yet I'm not a corpse...:smallbiggrin:

[Venger]

Not to be acute, but I do happen to have a body, yet I'm not a corpse...:smallbiggrin:

Honestly, I'm not even mad (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck-UhvbCDAk). good one

[RNightstalker]

Honestly, I'm not even mad (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck-UhvbCDAk). good one

#notfollowingyourlink