Help with Monk/Ranger

[Maelynn]

I'm trying to come up with a backup character for my current one, just in case they die. Given a few of the things that have happened to my PC, I'm trying to avoid a few points. Most importantly: 1) use an 'acceptable' race, since the DM consistently ignores my 16 Charisma or related skills just because I'm a Tiefling, and 2) gain a high AC without having to use armour, since it only took one Ooze in the middle of nowhere to leave me walking around with a -2 on my armour for a few sessions, as well as the current threat of being attacked while alone and not wearing my armour. These events were particularly annoying since I'm the tank of the party, with the others being a Rogue, a Bard, and a Ranger with a hawk pet.
I'm normally not into optimising and prefer building a character around personality/background, but if my current character ends up dead then I want to come back with a kickass character that leaves little room to get screwed over again. However, for me personally it still has to make some sense: I can't go with something like Sorc 1 / Monk 1 / Fighter 4 if I can't come up with a decent explanation of how the PC went through all those classes.

I got inspired by the idea of a Ranger that started off with a level in Monk to get a great AC from Unarmoured Defence. And both classes have DEX/WIS as priority, so they fuse nicely. I just get the feeling that I'm not making the most of it, so I'm asking you guys for help. And it doesn't necessarily have to be a Ranger, that's just my starting point.

Requirements:
- level 6 (planning ahead to 7 at most, since we level slowly)
- no exotic races
- only officially published material (with the exception of Revised Ranger, since someone in our party has already been allowed to use it)
- point buy
- high unarmoured AC
- preferably not susceptible to DM screwing (Aasimar race, Hermit background feature, Warlock patrons are risky)

tl;dr: please help me make a kick-ass backup character.

So far, I've come up with this:

Race: Wood Elf
Class: Monk 2 / Ranger 4
Background: none chosen yet, thinking Folk Hero or Outlander (inclined towards the latter)
Feat: Elven Accuracy

Attributes:

STR 9
DEX 18
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 10

AC: 17
Initiative: +4
Speed: 35

Skills if Folk Hero: Perception (Elf), Insight (Monk), Stealth (Monk), Animal Handling (Folk Hero), Survival (Folk Hero), Nature (Ranger)
Skills if Outlander: Perception (Elf), Insight (Monk), Stealth (Monk), Athletics (Outlander), Survival (Outlander), Animal Handling or Nature (Ranger)

Monk benefits:

- Unarmoured Defence
- use DEX as a modifier for any Monk weapon, which means I can safely use Strength as a dump stat
- use Bonus Actions for extra (unarmed) attacks (just a shame Monk weapons are not ranged, so I can't trigger these attacks with a shortbow)
- level 2: access to ki points, allowing me to do 2 extra unarmed attacks (1d4+4 each) and, while not necassary, a bit of extra movement

Ranger benefits:

Favoured Enemy: thinking humanoids (Humans and something else) or fey (since they are prevalent in the setting, though not always hostile)
Bonus Language: language of 'something else' if humanoid, Sylvan if fey
Favoured Terrain: forest
Fighting Style: Archery
Companion: panther or wolf (partly because of the knockdown option)
Specialisation: Beast Conclave (Revised Ranger)

1st level Spells: Ensnaring Strike, Hail of Thorns, Zephyr Strike

Elven Accuracy and Advantage

I've been looking at ways to create advantage, so that I can make the most of this feat. Found a great (though not complete) list here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477392-A-(mostly)-Exhaustive-List-of-Advantage-and-Disadvantage). Doesn't really look like I get to use a lot of those, unfortunately. There's the True Strike cantrip (downside: I lose an action)), but I don't have access to it unless I dip into Bard/Sorc/Warlock/Wizard - not sure if that's good. And going High Elf for the free cantrip means I'm short 1 point in Wisdom, meaning I can only get it to 15 causing my AC to drop by 1... not desirable. I could pick up Zephyr Strike as a Ranger spell, but it has a limit of 3 casts per long rest. Having a panther or wolf means I could possibly benefit from prone.

As for possible other feats, I would require one that gives a +1 on DEX in order to reach 18. I haven't seen anything that looks as good as Elven Accuracy, but perhaps I'm missing something?

Possible other races

I've looked at other races that give both DEX and WIS. Aarakocra is too exotic, but Ghostwise Halfling could be possible (if the DM doesn't decide that Sword Coast is too unlike his own setting). However, I get the feeling Darkvision and Trance are probably more valuable to a mostly ranged Ranger than Lucky and Nimbleness are.

Possible other classes

Way too many, and this is where I stumble the most. I could dip into a spellcasting class to get nifty cantrips (True Strike for advantage, Shillelagh for magic weapon property) but given my Charisma I can't multiclass into many of them, so I'd need to start out with the ones that are Charisma-based. Also, any of their spells that require spellcasting ability would be crippled by my lack of CHA modifier. It would also mean that I can only get 1 level in Monk, which isn't a bad thing if the trade-off is nice enough to beat the 2 ki points and movement (probably easy enough to achieve).

[Bobthewizard]

At level 6, I'd go Ranger 5/Monk 1 so you get extra attack. Then add more monk after that. Ranger/Monk should work well with a final 16/4 split either way. Makes a good ranged character using Ki for bonus disengage/dash with occasional Flury of Blows.

It might be better as a Monk with a splash of Ranger. In that case, start Monk 5/Ranger 1 then go Ranger 4, then Monk all the way.

[Zetakya]

- use Bonus Actions for extra (unarmed) attacks (just a shame Monk weapons are not ranged, so I can't trigger these attacks with a shortbow).

Go Kensei at Monk 3 and select Longbow as one of your two Kensei weapons.

Also gives you +2 AC while wielding your chosen Melee Kensei Weapon.

[Maelynn]

@Bobthewizard, thanks for the suggestions but I said max level 7 - any suggestion that's aimed at a higher level is rather useless to me. We level so slowly, that I'm not even sure if we'll hit 7 before the end of the year. I really am looking for the best option for level 6.


Go Kensei at Monk 3 and select Longbow as one of your two Kensei weapons.

Also gives you +2 AC while wielding your chosen Melee Kensei Weapon.

Oh, good idea. Though it would mean that I'd only have 3 levels in Ranger, so no feat. And missing out on the feat means having only 17 Dex, which means missing out on the +1 on AC, initiative, attack, and damage. Not good.

Unless I go for 4 in Monk and then 2 in Ranger, but that'd mean I have no animal companion. Hm... not sure if either would be worth losing just to gain the Kensei weapon.

But... if I were to start as Ranger and then go into Monk after 4 levels, then I could work towards Kensei once I hit level 7. And if I start out as Ranger, it means I get to max out a d10 on first level, rather than a d8. It's only 2 hp, but still. The rest of the differences are equipment - which favour the Ranger as I'd get a longbow (1d8) instead of a shortbow (1d6), and tool proficiency - which would've been a nice addition since I could craft my own arrows, but not necessary as I can just buy those.

So at the moment, Ranger 4 / Monk 2 and aiming for Kensei at level 7 is looking nice indeed.

[Man_Over_Game]

If you want to play each class to their strengths:

Monks have mobility and multiple attacks, but regularly use their Bonus Action.
Rangers have utility and can enhance their attacks, but regularly use their Bonus Action.

So right off the bat, we have a synergy and a problem: Monks hit a lot, Rangers buff attacks, but both use Bonus Actions.

So we'll want to find builds that focus on utilizing or solving those two things.

Ranger subclasses that don't utilize Bonus Actions often are generally the Gloomstalker and the Hunter. The Hunter is a bit specific on using weapons, where the Gloomstalker focuses on stealth and attacking more often. We can separate these into two builds.

Build 1: Gloomstalker + Pretty much any melee Monk subclass. Shadow has a lot of synergies, and a Long Death Monk isn't as reliant on Flurry of Blows in the first turn (you'll probably want to spend your Bonus Action on Hunter's Mark), so those are the two I'd recommend. This is a very powerful build if someone can cast Bless or another attack buff on you, as you'll get 5 attacks in the first round of combat (or 3 if you cast Hunter's Mark).


Build 2: Hunter + Kensei. Pretty standard stuff. Hunter's Mark, snipe from afar, get in close and finish them off with a HM + Flurry of Blows combo. Or spend your bonus action to defend yourself. Or spend your BA to run away. This build is designed around being a high damage, versatile sniper that's impossible to pin down.


Unfortunately, there's not a lot of synergy between a Monk and a Companion, as the Monk doesn't interact with allies much. The best-case scenario I can imagine is a Long Death Monk with Sentinel, where your Companion can freely hit things and grant you THP for killing enemies adjacent to both of you.

[Maelynn]

Rangers have utility and can enhance their attacks, but regularly use their Bonus Action.

For what exactly? All I could find was Hunter's Mark, which only needs to use a BA initially and when switching targets. The rest of the BA in between could be used for Flurry of Blows, or Martial Arts even, but they both require me to be in melee range so not even that useful when I'm at range using a bow. I'm probably overlooking something here.


Gloomstalker focuses on stealth and attacking more often. We can separate these into two builds.

If you mean Dread Ambusher, that's extra 1d8 damage for 1 attack only once per combat - and only if that attack hits. Doesn't seem to weigh up against the animal companion I could get from Revised Ranger. What am I missing that makes Gloomstalker so good? Umbral Sight isn't really valuable to me, as a Wood Elf already has Darkvision and we've had hardly any combats in darkness so far. I don't think that'll change much.


The best-case scenario I can imagine is a Long Death Monk with Sentinel, where your Companion can freely hit things and grant you THP for killing enemies adjacent to both of you.

Except that Sentinel doesn't give the +1 to Dex that I require to reach 18.

[Man_Over_Game]

For what exactly? All I could find was Hunter's Mark, which only needs to use a BA initially and when switching targets. The rest of the BA in between could be used for Flurry of Blows, or Martial Arts even, but they both require me to be in melee range so not even that useful when I'm at range using a bow. I'm probably overlooking something here.



If you mean Dread Ambusher, that's extra 1d8 damage for 1 attack only once per combat - and only if that attack hits. Doesn't seem to weigh up against the animal companion I could get from Revised Ranger. What am I missing that makes Gloomstalker so good? Umbral Sight isn't really valuable to me, as a Wood Elf already has Darkvision and we've had hardly any combats in darkness so far. I don't think that'll change much.



Except that Sentinel doesn't give the +1 to Dex that I require to reach 18.

From the Core Ranger, their best spells are ones that consume their Bonus Action to enhance an attack. But on top of that, most of the Ranger subclasses also have some kind of buff that is reliant on using your Bonus Action, like from the Horizon Walker, the Monster Slayer, the Beast Master, or some of the Hunter options.



The benefit to Dread Ambusher is a counterweight to the problems introduced by Hunter's Mark. With Hunter's Mark, that's a turn that you're not allowed to use Flurry of Blows in, causing you to go down from 4 attacks to 2 attacks (that are enhanced). Of course, this pays off when you have to hit the same target a few turns in a row, as that leads into 4 attacks that are enhanced.

Dread Ambusher then allows you to get an extra attack on that first turn (on top of dealing extra damage with that attack). So the options are:

4 basic attacks (FoB) each round, basic Monk, 30 damage.
2 enhanced attacks (Hunter's Mark, 24 damage) then 4 enhanced attacks (FoB + HM, 44 damage) on following rounds, Monk + Ranger.
3 enhanced attacks (HM + Gloom Stalker + 1d8, 40.5 damage) then 4 enhanced attacks (FoB + HM, 44 damage) on following rounds, Monk + Gloomstalker Ranger.

So HM boosts your damage potential on bosses by about 50%, but decreases turns you have to move/cast it by 30%.
Gloomstalker instead increases your first round's damage by 30%, nearly doubling the amount of damage you would normally do on your first turn in combats where you'd use Hunter's Mark.

On top of that, you'll want to regularly be in melee distance as a Monk, so the extra movement speed really helps here.

The other benefit from the Gloomstalker is that you become invisible in Darkness, on top of increasing your already effective Darkvision. This means that you can stalk targets without them ever seeing you, even if they have something like Truesight. If they need to rely on Darkvision to hit you, you have Advantage to hit them and they have Disadvantage to hit you. There's that Elven Accuracy option that you were looking for.



On the note of Sentinel, do what you gotta. Your Companion also gets ASIs and feats, if I remember correctly regarding the ReRanger, so your companion can get it instead. It will mean that your companion will start taking more damage than you will, though, which is not a good thing if you're a subclass that regularly gains Temporary Hitpoints. Sentinel punishes enemies for attacking your allies, but it doesn't do anything if enemies are attacking you, so it'll mean enemies are inclined to kill the one with Sentinel first.

[Maelynn]

So the options are:

4 basic attacks (FoB) each round, basic Monk.
2 enhanced attacks (Hunter's Mark) then 4 enhanced attacks (FoB + HM) on following rounds, Monk + Ranger.
3 enhanced attacks (HM + Gloom Stalker + 1d8) then 4 enhanced attacks (HM + FoB) on following rounds, Monk + Gloomstalker Ranger.


While not enhanced, there's also the attacks from the animal companion. Thanks to the added proficiency bonus, a panther gets 1d6+5 and a wolf gets 2d4+5. Both with a +7 to hit (and a wolf even getting advantage from Pack Tactics). I'm not an expert in determining statistics and things like average damage, but doesn't that weigh up against the 1d8 from Dread Ambusher?


On top of that, you'll want to regularly be in melee distance as a Monk, so the extra movement speed really helps here.

I think this might be one of the biggest issues with the combo: Monk wants melee, Ranger wants ranged (in my case anyway, if I were to go melee then I might as well roll up a Dex Fighter). -_-


The other benefit from the Gloomstalker is that you become invisible in Darkness, on top of increasing your already effective Darkvision. This means that you can stalk targets without them ever seeing you, even if they have something like Truesight. If they need to rely on Darkvision to hit you, you have Advantage to hit them and they have Disadvantage to hit you. There's that Elven Accuracy option that you were looking for.

Yes, if we were to have our fights in darkness. But since that rarely happens (in our entire campaign it only happened once), I can't count on it to give me the advantage I need. And we're quite the 9-to-5 party that works during the day and rests during the night. I love the idea of being invisible in darkness even for Darkvision, but it would see hardly any use in our current campaign. :(

I'm starting to think my best bet to gain regular advantage is to have my companion use the Help action.


It will mean that your companion will start taking more damage than you will, though, which is not a good thing if you're a subclass that regularly gains Temporary Hitpoints.

Temporary hitpoints? How? I see no ability in the Beast Conclave (or the Revised Ranger in general) that grants me bonus hitpoints. And I doubt it's a spell, since my pitiful 3 slots would be reserved for Hunter's Mark.

As for the companion taking damage, that is indeed a possibility. What does help is that they gain my proficiency bonus to AC, giving a panther/wolf an AC of 15/16 respectively. They'll also gain 1 extra HD, as well as ASI (2 dex for 1 AC or 2 con for some hp) if I go with 4 levels in Ranger. The downside of that, though, is that they won't gain any more HD if I continue into Monk levels. So eventually I'll either have a weak companion, or I'll have to limit my Monk levels to 2-3 at most.


Go Kensei at Monk 3 and select Longbow as one of your two Kensei weapons.

Also gives you +2 AC while wielding your chosen Melee Kensei Weapon.

I've been reading into the Kensei, and there's something in the wording of Agile Parry that bothers me. It says "if you make an unarmed attack as part of the Attack action on your turn". A Bonus Action, because it has the word Action in its name, is a separate action and not part of the Attack Action (otherwise it would've been called Bonus Attack or something). This is also implied in abilities like Flurry of Blows, which states "immediately after you take the Attack Action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action" - they say after, not as part of.

This would mean that Agile Parry is meant for melee, and Kensei's Shot is meant for ranged. And while an extra d4 is nice enough, it does make the Kensei seem a bit less awesome for my plan to use ranged weapons.

[Man_Over_Game]

While not enhanced, there's also the attacks from the animal companion. Thanks to the added proficiency bonus, a panther gets 1d6+5 and a wolf gets 2d4+5. Both with a +7 to hit (and a wolf even getting advantage from Pack Tactics). I'm not an expert in determining statistics and things like average damage, but doesn't that weigh up against the 1d8 from Dread Ambusher?



I think this might be one of the biggest issues with the combo: Monk wants melee, Ranger wants ranged (in my case anyway, if I were to go melee then I might as well roll up a Dex Fighter). -_-



Yes, if we were to have our fights in darkness. But since that rarely happens (in our entire campaign it only happened once), I can't count on it to give me the advantage I need. And we're quite the 9-to-5 party that works during the day and rests during the night. I love the idea of being invisible in darkness even for Darkvision, but it would see hardly any use in our current campaign. :(

I'm starting to think my best bet to gain regular advantage is to have my companion use the Help action.



Temporary hitpoints? How? I see no ability in the Beast Conclave (or the Revised Ranger in general) that grants me bonus hitpoints. And I doubt it's a spell, since my pitiful 3 slots would be reserved for Hunter's Mark.

As for the companion taking damage, that is indeed a possibility. What does help is that they gain my proficiency bonus to AC, giving a panther/wolf an AC of 15/16 respectively. They'll also gain 1 extra HD, as well as ASI (2 dex for 1 AC or 2 con for some hp) if I go with 4 levels in Ranger. The downside of that, though, is that they won't gain any more HD if I continue into Monk levels. So eventually I'll either have a weak companion, or I'll have to limit my Monk levels to 2-3 at most.

Dread Ambusher doesn't just add 1d8, though. That's an additional attack (1d8 weapon damage, +4 modifier, + 1d6 from Hunter's Mark, +1d8 from Dread Ambusher) that you didn't have before. Total, that's 16.5 damage from a single attack, the equivalent of two attacks from your companion.

Take the dice set in question (like 3d6), determine the highest possible value of a single die of the set (6), add +1 to that (6+1=7), divide it by 2 (7/2=3.5), and multiply it by the number of dice you're rolling (3x3.5=10.5).
Average of 1d4 = 2.5
Average of 1d6 = 3.5
Average of 1d8 = 4.5

Average of 2d4 = 5

And so on.

The reason 7 is a lucky number is because a pair of 6-sided dice, common for gambling, has an average dice roll of 7.




I do think that the fact that "Rangers want Range" is a bit of a misconception. They have medium armor, 1d10 Hit Dice, proficiency with Shields, Fighting Styles (which include Defense), healing spells, Absorb Elements, and several defensive features. Rangers are tankier than Monks, who are melee-specialized classes. I'd say Rangers are as much of a ranged specialist as the Battlemaster Fighter. Which is to say, "better as a ranged character, because ranged is better than melee", not because the build overly incentivizes ranged attacks.

Comparing Monks to Rangers feels a lot like comparing Bards to Paladins. It's always seemed odd to me that people use Monks to fill in a tank role, but Rangers don't come to mind first.



If your party doesn't like fighting at night or espionage missions, then Gloomstalker probably wouldn't work. Good class, just not good for your campaign.


When I mentioned THP, you were responding to my suggestion of using a Long Death Monk option, which regularly regenerates THP when enemies die near you, which works well if your companion kills things.


I think the important thing is, though, is to figure out how YOU want to play. Melee? Range? Versatile? Tanky? What's your goal?

[Maelynn]

I do think that the fact that "Rangers want Range" is a bit of a misconception.

Oh I know, that's why I followed it with 'in my case'. I want a Ranger to be ranged, otherwise I'd just go with a class that's more geared towards melee.


I think the important thing is, though, is to figure out how YOU want to play. Melee? Range? Versatile? Tanky? What's your goal?

Well, right now I'm a Paladin that puts herself in a tanky position (AC 18) and deals mid-to-heavy damage. I'm not particularly looking for something similar/different, but I do want a backup character that doesn't have the same issues my current character has (mostly the AC being heavily dependent on my armour, highest Charisma in the party so often party face, the negative NPC reactions to being a Tiefling, and especially the extent of the DM's efforts to bring me down - literally). For this reason, I want a character that stays more in the background, doesn't stand out, and doesn't need armour to get a good AC. I just don't want to give the DM anything he could screw with again. It may sound a bit bitter, I am aware, but I find that the things that he dropped on my character are getting personal (since it's only my PC and not the others). With every session, more and more fun seeps out. I want a backup character that's kick-ass in their own right, without provoking any negative sh!t.

So, that's why I thought about making a Ranger with the Unarmoured Defence (and partly Martial Arts) from 1 level in Monk. No need for Charisma, I can linger in the background much like a teenager sitting in the back row so as not to attract the attention of the teacher, still able to hold myself even without armour or weapons nearby. And I haven't played Ranger yet (or Monk), so that'd just the cherry on top.

Although I must say, at this point I'm getting a bit frustrated with being stuck at this build that a pure Moon Druid starts to sound quite appealing as well. Mobile feat and Allosaurus, hoo boy.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'd just ditch one of the two classes and replace it with Land Druid (Coast) or Battlemaster Fighter. A 3 level dip into either will get you a lot of benefits towards your chosen playstyle.

Be careful with Moon Druid, though. If your DM is as restrictive as he sounds, he might put a damper on things, like restricting what beasts you can form into ("You haven't seen an allosaurus before, so you can't take that form").

[djreynolds]

If you want to play each class to their strengths:

Monks have mobility and multiple attacks, but regularly use their Bonus Action.
Rangers have utility and can enhance their attacks, but regularly use their Bonus Action.

So right off the bat, we have a synergy and a problem: Monks hit a lot, Rangers buff attacks, but both use Bonus Actions.

So we'll want to find builds that focus on utilizing or solving those two things.

Ranger subclasses that don't utilize Bonus Actions often are generally the Gloomstalker and the Hunter. The Hunter is a bit specific on using weapons, where the Gloomstalker focuses on stealth and attacking more often. We can separate these into two builds.

Build 1: Gloomstalker + Pretty much any melee Monk subclass. Shadow has a lot of synergies, and a Long Death Monk isn't as reliant on Flurry of Blows in the first turn (you'll probably want to spend your Bonus Action on Hunter's Mark), so those are the two I'd recommend. This is a very powerful build if someone can cast Bless or another attack buff on you, as you'll get 5 attacks in the first round of combat (or 3 if you cast Hunter's Mark).


Build 2: Hunter + Kensei. Pretty standard stuff. Hunter's Mark, snipe from afar, get in close and finish them off with a HM + Flurry of Blows combo. Or spend your bonus action to defend yourself. Or spend your BA to run away. This build is designed around being a high damage, versatile sniper that's impossible to pin down.


Unfortunately, there's not a lot of synergy between a Monk and a Companion, as the Monk doesn't interact with allies much. The best-case scenario I can imagine is a Long Death Monk with Sentinel, where your Companion can freely hit things and grant you THP for killing enemies adjacent to both of you.

This is good stuff, both are skirmisher classes. I mean imagine longstrider coupled with the dash of a monk... you could almost attack anyone

You fire with a bow, move in and punch, and it gives a kensai a reason to go unarmed also as his bow is his kensai weapon

I do like the long death monk and beastmaster on a revised ranger... it could work

[OctaviOz]

I've played around with a bunch of Monk/Splash builds that there is a bunch of fun to be had. Based on what you have said so far I'm assuming you still want to be able to front-line tank + do some other fun stuff?

Thing to remember about Monks is they can be a bit squishy so a lot of their tanking ability relies on preventing damage in the first place. In particular with Stunning blow. Also Monks require decent level investment otherwise you will consistently run out of KI and not be able to use many of their best features.

My suggestion for a level 6 build that works incredibly well would be:
Monk (Open Hand) 5 / Cleric (Light) 1

Wood Elf Build with 1 ASI (could choose a feat instead of bumping Dex by 2). Point buy stats:
Str:10 Dex:18 Con:14 Int:8 Wis:16 Cha:10

Key features of build:
-High Dex and Wis for Hits (+7)/Dam(+4)/Stunning Fist DC
-4 attacks per round for potential stuns and free trip/push.
-Resting AC of 17, easy to buff to 19 with shield of faith (conc)
-Defensive reactions to improve tanking. Deflect Missile + Warding Flare
-45 HPs at level 6 is not amazing but also not horrible. Remember you are not a damage sponge. Go first and stun/trip everything
-Bunch of excellent versatility with cleric cantrips/spells/heals and Monks KI specials (dodge etc).

Options to consider
-Kensai would be better for DPR but worse for defence/tanking IMO (no free trip)
-Ranger is an ok splash for some extra DRP but I don't think it really synergises well for a front-line-tank. Gloomstalker/Shadow Monk on the other hand works very if you are looking to go sneaky/ninja type.
-Other viable cleric domains depending on the flavour you want. I also really like trickery for this build
-Some feats provide excellent synergy. I love Alert for never-surprised and almost-always-go-first. Lucky could also be great. Esp with a PiTA DM. Toughness never a bad option for front liners.
-Elven accuracy is a poor option and almost always a trap. Unless you are building a serious crit-fishing build and even then there are almost always better ways to spend your ASI.
-Monk/Warlock is MAD but provides some awesome synergies and versatility. Takes to level 8 though to really come online.

Hope this helps! Have fun :)

[OctaviOz]

Oh I know, that's why I followed it with 'in my case'. I want a Ranger to be ranged, otherwise I'd just go with a class that's more geared towards melee.



Just noticed you said this. If you really want to go ranged then I would probably stay away from Monk. It's their Flurry of Blows and Stunninng Strike that really make the Monk class. Ranged doesn't really take maximum advantage of either of these. Unless you want to be moving in-out of combat consistently. If you really want to go ranged monk then; Monk 5 (Kensai)/1 Ranger (working towards Gloomstalker).

Play style:
2x Long bow attacks
Move in - x2 Flurry of blows + Stunning strikes
Move out (I would get mobile feat)
Rinse-repeat

IMO thois would be a slightly sub-optimal build but not totally gimped and could be a lot of fun. If you are focused on ranged then AC becomes much less of an issue meaning I would drop Monk and focus on another class. Just my 2cents

[Vogie]

A different option would be Kensei Monk 5 (Longbow) / Fighter 1.

That way you have Archery Fighting style, additional 1d4 on ranged damage, and if you're ever caught in a melee situation, Agile Parry boosts your AC until you get out of range. Then, the next 2 levels go up the Fighter tree into Arcane Archer, then continue up the Kensei Monk tree. Both Deft Strike and most of the Arcane Shots are options that you get to decide to use after your arrow has hit - So once you crit, you can spend a ki point to add an extra damage die on the monk table AND the 2d6 from whichever shot you used... and since when you crit you "Roll all of the attack’s damage dice twice and add them together", you can do some massive damage.

Oh, and both your Ki points and arcane shots refresh on short rests.

[Bigmouth]

I think you'd be hard pressed to do better than five levels of ranger for what you're wanting. Extra attack is just too good. It makes you better with the bow (Your weapon of choice) and with melee (when you are forced into melee). Going any further into Monk at 6th level not only takes away your most significant power-up, it seems to be contradict what you're saying you want from the build, namely to lurk in the back doing your damage. But if you wanted to pick it up, the time to do so IMO would be 7th level (IE: after you've got that extra attack option). Still not a fan of the melee heavy stuff when you are talking range, but the BA disengage could come in handy.

Oops, forgot that UA Revised removed Extra Attack as Class ability and moved it to sublasses (and that Beast Conclave technically doesn't get it)
Coordinated attack with the UARR isn't as good as Extra Attack, as your pet is going to be out in melee. If you feel your DM targets you, he/she might end up targetting your poor fluffy friend. Still, it is better than what you're going to get with that dip into 2nd level monk at 6th.

[Nhorianscum]

My suggestion?

Go full RR if you're going for beast conclave. Roll with a small race to ride your wolfbro.

Take the leatherworking tool proficiency and make a spare set of armor for yourself and your doggo.

Monk 1 isn't worth it when we're only replacing a basic tool proficiency.

[Bigmouth]

My suggestion?

Go full RR if you're going for beast conclave. Roll with a small race to ride your wolfbro.

Take the leatherworking tool proficiency and make a spare set of armor for yourself and your doggo.

Monk 1 isn't worth it when we're only replacing a basic tool proficiency.

I believe there are two reasons for the Monk dip:
1: Monk weapons use Dex, which means Str can be a dump stat.
2: 17 AC butt naked at lvl 6. Apparently the DM has done the ole "You aren't in your armor and the enemies are attacking" thing one too many times.

Unrelated but something I feel someone should say, "Have you talked to your DM about feeling picked on?" There definitely should be a discussion. It isn't cool to have your fun robbed the way you're talking about.

[Nhorianscum]

I believe there are two reasons for the Monk dip:
1: Monk weapons use Dex, which means Str can be a dump stat.
2: 17 AC butt naked at lvl 6. Apparently the DM has done the ole "You aren't in your armor and the enemies are attacking" thing one too many times.

Unrelated but something I feel someone should say, "Have you talked to your DM about feeling picked on?" There definitely should be a discussion. It isn't cool to have your fun robbed the way you're talking about.

So are normal finess weapons? I did suggest a "spare" set of studded leather armor? Barkskin is still on the ranger list?

We're gonna need to make a studded leather barding for doggo anywho.

Admittedly UAD is always on. Unless the DM says it's not. Because DM.

[Keravath]

1) I think you need to decide whether ranged or melee damage is of greater interest. The monk does really well with melee attacks. The ranger with archery fighting style works well for ranged attacks.

2) If you are looking at a level 6 build then you will likely want either 5 monk or 5 ranger for extra attack. Any other combination will be underpowered at the level compared to level 5s with extra attack or 3rd level spells. They catch up as soon as one of the classes is at level 5 but that might be a level or two.

3) Elven accuracy is only useful if you have multiple ways to obtain advantage. I've found that unless I build my character to have multiple ways to obtain advantage that it isn't useful to rely on team mates to provide it. It is nice to be able to roll three dice but unless you can reliably get advantage it isn't that useful. One option is a gloomstalker ranger who is considered invisible in the dark when creatures need to use darkvision to see them. This gives them advantage on attacks and in the proper circumstances it would benefit from elven accuracy. However, from the sounds of it, your DM might make encounters in the dark very uncommon if you had this ability.

4) A ranged build will likely want to get both the Archery fighting style and the sharpshooter feat. This works best with ranger. Ranger 5/monk 1, variant human, sharpshooter feat to start with. Gloomstalker gets darkvision at level 3. Alternatively, you could go with wood elf and take elven accuracy but you will find sharpshooter useful later. (not so much for the -5/+10 but for the long range and ability to ignore 1/2 and 3/4 cover.)

5) A decent monk build would be monk 5/cleric 1 ... I would probably go with war cleric since they get the divine favor spell as a domain spell (normally a paladin spell). This costs a bonus action at the beginning of combat but adds a d4 damage to every monk attack and doesn't need to be moved like hex or hunter's mark. However, a melee monk is more of a skirmisher so I'd suggest variant human taking the mobile feat to start with and boosting dex at level 4.

However, all of the monk combinations have an "average" AC since they can't use a shield. The best you can start with using point buy is AC16 rising to AC17 at level 4 if you boost dex.

P.S. If you are looking for other options then paladin 5/hexblade warlock 1 might be worth looking at. Moon druid 5/life cleric 1 if you want some crazy healing abilities (good berries and healing spirit with the life cleric bonus) and the ability to be in a combat wild shape no matter what you are wearing with only a bonus action.

[Maelynn]

You fire with a bow, move in and punch, and it gives a kensai a reason to go unarmed also as his bow is his kensai weapon

I hadn't even thought about moving between the attack and the Martial Arts BA. That does make it more interesting to go with longbow Kensai, especially if you'd combine it with Mobile to get out of range immediately afterwards.


Be careful with Moon Druid, though. If your DM is as restrictive as he sounds, he might put a damper on things, like restricting what beasts you can form into ("You haven't seen an allosaurus before, so you can't take that form").

Aaargh. Okay FINE. Giant Elk then. At least that one came out of the Ranger's Bag of Tricks a few times already, so he can't make a case for that one. -_-


Based on what you have said so far I'm assuming you still want to be able to front-line tank + do some other fun stuff?

Well, what I want and what I should are 2 different things. I want to get out of melee because I'm tired of being targeted by a DM who so often expresses the desire to get me down. I should stay melee, because the rest of the party isn't melee enough to stay up without a tank (Rogue, Bard, Ranger). Maybe I should just forget the whole Ranger idea, go full Monk, and then make them run around a lot with high AC so he can't get at me (although then he'll probably come up with ways to pin me down). :(


-Elven accuracy is a poor option and almost always a trap. Unless you are building a serious crit-fishing build and even then there are almost always better ways to spend your ASI.

It's not ideal, true, but I need to choose a feat that gives +1 DEX or else I can't reach 18. And going with an ASI leaves me with a surplus +1 that wouldn't fit anywhere, since all abilities would have an even number. I could perhaps up STR to 10 to remove its penalty, but I don't see the benefit of that.

So if I want to have 18 DEX with point buy, then I'm kind of stuck with a feat that gives +1 DEX - and the other options are useless (armoured, resilient, etc).


up the Fighter tree into Arcane Archer

I've looked at Arcane Archer to see if I could combine it with Ranger, but I think it's rubbish until level 7 when your arrows are magical. Since Arcane Shot specifically says "when you fire a magic arrow, and I won't have the gold for (and possibly not even access to) magic arrows, I'm not going to bother with it.


I think you'd be hard pressed to do better than five levels of ranger for what you're wanting. Extra attack is just too good. It makes you better with the bow (Your weapon of choice) and with melee (when you are forced into melee). Going any further into Monk at 6th level not only takes away your most significant power-up, it seems to be contradict what you're saying you want from the build, namely to lurk in the back doing your damage. But if you wanted to pick it up, the time to do so IMO would be 7th level (IE: after you've got that extra attack option). Still not a fan of the melee heavy stuff when you are talking range, but the BA disengage could come in handy.

Oops, forgot that UA Revised removed Extra Attack as Class ability and moved it to sublasses (and that Beast Conclave technically doesn't get it)
Coordinated attack with the UARR isn't as good as Extra Attack, as your pet is going to be out in melee. If you feel your DM targets you, he/she might end up targetting your poor fluffy friend. Still, it is better than what you're going to get with that dip into 2nd level monk at 6th.

Yes, this is what I've been struggling with as well - ideally I'd have Ranger 5 / Monk 2 so I could have both the Coordinated Attack as well as the BA to Disengage.

And I agree with the possibility that the companion could become the target. It's nice that they get my proficiency bonus added to their AC, so a wolf would have 16, but with the 20+ attack rolls the DM has been having the past few sessions I doubt it'll be enough. The other Ranger in the party has a Hawk that hardly ever gets targeted, but that might be because the DM keeps thinking they're out of range because it's flying. With a melee companion he's sure to consider it a viable attack.


Unrelated but something I feel someone should say, "Have you talked to your DM about feeling picked on?" There definitely should be a discussion. It isn't cool to have your fun robbed the way you're talking about.

Not as unrelated as you think, because this whole thread and my desire to have a backup character is created because of this.

After the first 'threat' (after he got frustrated with not hitting me and then saying "oh, I'll get you") and the encounter with the corroding ooze, I made a bit of a joke about it next time I spoke to him alone. Saying that my character was in a hard spot now with the -2 on her armour and the -1 on her weapon, and if it wasn't his way to get even with me winkwinknudge. He then said he hadn't even realised it, for which I gave him the benefit of the doubt. However, after that it didn't stop and he even came with another 'threat' after I jokingly asked if he already regretted giving me a Cloak of Protection and he responded with "yeah, I'll need to figure something out for that".

If he wants to throw curveballs and see how I'd fair against harder hitting targets, or without my armour so my AC is only 10, that would be fine if he didn't single me out. That's what's getting at me, because I'm the only one the really negative sh!t happens to. Sure, others get hit as well, but it's not proportional. And I don't feel I can bring it up again without being seen as a whiner, so I reckoned I'd just have a backup character ready that could withstand all this a bit better.

[Maelynn]

You know, I notice that a lot of the suggestions focus more on the Monk than on the Ranger. Initially, I myself was a bit more inclined towards Ranger just to escape melee, but I'm starting to let go of that idea. Not only does the party already have a full Ranger, I also feel I'm kind of stuck in the tanky/melee position because of the party composition. A Monk would be more suitable for melee combat than a Ranger, while still good enough to stand up against most of what the DM has tossed at me so far (although a friend rightfully said last night that if the DM really has it in for me somehow, he'd find other ways - after all, he's the DM and can do anything he likes).

So right now, maybe dropping the Ranger idea and going with Monk is the way to go. Drunken Master looks nice because of the free Disengage, but the rest doesn't sound too appealing. Long Death is rather dependent on killing blows, which I often don't get with a party of 5 (4 PCs and the Ranger's hawk that has already earned the title of 'killstealer'). Kensai still sounds nice, especially for the added benefit of getting a ranged weapon on the list of monk weapons and the fact that it gives +2 AC in melee and extra damage at range. Open Hand would work well with Elven Accuracy, because if it fails the DEX saving throw (which has a high DC with 18 DEX) then it's prone - then I get advantage on my Extra Attack. And the heal ability is also very decent.

I could perhaps dip 1 level into Druid, to get some access to cantrips and still have the benefit of a high WIS. I will lose out on the Ki-Empowered Strikes, but I could counter that easily enough with Shillelagh. Things like Primal Savagery (hello, 2d10 acid) and Thunderclap sound really nice.

[Vogie]

I've looked at Arcane Archer to see if I could combine it with Ranger, but I think it's rubbish until level 7 when your arrows are magical. Since Arcane Shot specifically says "when you fire a magic arrow, and I won't have the gold for (and possibly not even access to) magic arrows, I'm not going to bother with it.


That's a fundamental misunderstanding of the feature - AA isn't a class that requires special ammunition.

Once per turn when you fire an arrow from a shortbow or longbow as part of the Attack action, you can apply one of your Arcane Shot options to that arrow. You decide to use the option when the arrow hits, unless the option doesn’t involve an attack roll. You have two uses of this ability, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a short or long rest.
Your Arcane Shots MAKE the shots magical, and the only feature that calls out "magic arrows" is the other 7th level feature, right under the Magic Arrow feature.

Even if they did, with some bizarre ruling by the DM that would make the subclass completely useless until level 7, the Kensei Monk's 6th level feature also makes your kensei longbow attacks magical anyway, so you STILL don't need more than a 3 level dip.

[Maelynn]

That's a fundamental misunderstanding of the feature.

I beg your pardon? I didn't 'misunderstand' anything, it's literally what's written. And the 2019 SA Compendium pdf doesn't list any errata about it, either.

[Vogie]

I beg your pardon? I didn't 'misunderstand' anything, it's literally what's written. And the 2019 SA Compendium pdf doesn't list any errata about it, either.

Ah, you have a first printing. It wasn't in the 2019 errata because it was fixed multiple years ago, by the second printing of the book. It was also released in an Adventurer's League document in November 9th 2017, which is available via PDF HERE (http://dndadventurersleague.org/xanathars-guide-to-everything/).

https://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=90971&d=1510644388

My apologies for calling it a misunderstanding. It was just a typo fixed a long time ago, and I thought everyone knew.

[Maelynn]

Ah, you have a first printing. It wasn't in the 2019 errata because it was fixed multiple years ago, by the second printing of the book. It was also released in an Adventurer's League document in November 9th 2017, which is available via PDF HERE (http://dndadventurersleague.org/xanathars-guide-to-everything/).

...

My apologies for calling it a misunderstanding. It was just a typo fixed a long time ago, and I thought everyone knew.

Thank you. Both the link and the apologies are appreciated. I didn't know of the tweet, or that it was an error. And I also didn't know that the SA Compendium comes in different volumes, I thought it was 1 file that was constantly updated.

I do seem to have a first printing, but I can't find any evidence of a second printing... not even on the official site (https://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/xanathars-guide-everything), it has the same ISBN of my copy. Do you have this second printing, so that I can have the ISBN to search for it?