OSR-ish D&D classes for a 5e campaign

[paladinn]

This is a bit of theorycrafting; but I think it might be beneficial for folks who want to play 5e, but are a bit put-off by how high-magic and complex it is. Every class has at least one subclass that uses magic; and many of the class features and feats are kind of overhelming. This is not how D&D was in the beginning; and I think there are a lot of grognards (like me) who would appreciate getting back to basics, but still want to use the 5e rules.

I'd like to start a dialog about how to modify existing 5e classes/subclasses to tone things down and get back to how they were envisioned But to still be survivable in 5e.

So let's start with the fighter. In the LBB's, a fighter did exactly that: fight. S/he could use any weapons and shields. Most important attribute was STR, obviously. No feats, nothing special, just hit the enemy. Later editions added things like Cleave, or multi-attacks against critter with 1 HD or less. 1e UA added weapon (and Double!) specialization. 3x added feats Every Level!

5e gives us things like a fighting style, ASI's every couple levels, 2nd Wind and Action Surge and 2 extra attacks. The "basic" fighter (Champion) gets another fighting style, improved critical and regaining HP. For the subclasses (just from PHB), the Battlemaster brings in a whole separate mechanic (superiority dice) and maneuvers. The EK gets straight-up spellcasting. The Arcane Archer makes one into a magic Green Arrow; the Cavalier is more for mounted attack; and the Samurai introduces the fighting spirit mechanic.

If a player wanted to be "just a fighter", is Champion the only real option? If so, how could the class be simplified and still be survivable? What are the "bare essentials" of the fighter class? When reaching 3rd level, what would a good "basic fighter" subclass look like? I'm thinking possibly weapons specialization and/or another fighting style; but what do y'all think?

[Great Dragon]

Now, I'm going to start by stating that I'm not the best at Class (re)creation, in any Edition.
I'll give this my best shot, though.

Note: I only worry about Balance when comparing to other Subtypes of the same class.

For the Basic Fighter type:
Battlemaster can work, but honestly Champion really is the primary choice here. But, one extra Fighting Style and Improved Critical seems weak when compairing to older Editions. Extra Attacks got gimped from 3x, but then it's better then constantly calculating your To Hit bonus.
20/15/10/5 (+Str/Dex mod) vs four attacks at a Base +6 (+Str/Dex mod), the latter is much easier.

OSR: might break the Abilities of both BM and Champion into the levels of Fighter (no Subclass) perhaps allowing a few feats for Player variaty.

It would take some free time to try and come up with Level by Level options.
I return.

Here's my attempt:


Fighter
1d10 HP + Con mod per level. max at level 1 and add 6+con/level.
Normal 5e Proficiency progress by Level.
Armor : All armor, shields
Weapons: Simple weapons, martial weapons
Tools: None
Saving Throws: Strength, Constitution
Racial abilities and Background Skills as normal
Skills: Choose two skills from Acrobatics, Animal Handling, Athletics, History, Insight, Intimidation,
Perception, and Survival.

01 Fighting Style, Second Wind
02 Action Surge (one use)
03 2 Maneuvers, 4 Superiority Dice (1d8)
04 ASI or Feat
05 Extra Attack (1),
06 ASI or Feat, Improved Critical
07 1 Maneuver, +1 Superiority Dice, Know Your Enemy
08 ASI or Feat
09 Indomitable (one use)
10 Remarkable Athlete, Improved Combat (1d10)
11 Extra Attack (2), 1 Maneuver
12 ASI or Feat
13 Indomitable (two uses)
14 ASI or Feat
15 1 Maneuver, +1 Superiority Dice, Superior Critical
16 ASI or Feat
17 Action Surge (two uses), Indomitable (three uses)
18 1 Maneuver, Survivor, Supreme Combat (1d12)
19 ASI or Feat
20 Extra Attack (3), 2 Maneuvers

Fighting Styles: Archery, Defense, Dueling, Great Weapon Fighting, Protection, and Two Weapon Fighting.

Maneuvers:
Commander’s Strike. Disarming Attack. Distracting Strike. Evasive Footwork. Feinting Attack. Goading Attack.
Lunging Attack. Maneuvering Attack. Menacing Attack. Parry. Precision Attack. Pushing Attack. Rally.
Riposte. Sweeping Attack. And Trip Attack.

Add Feats as normal.
PEACH

I might give some of the Caster Classes a shot, if this looks ok. .

[paladinn]

The base 5e Fighter class gets 7(!) ASI's over 20 levels, and ends up with 4 attacks. I agree that 4 attacks are better than the mess we had in 3.x.

Each ASI could potentially be a feat; but I'm not sure there are many feats that are suited for a basic Fighter, especially once s/he has picked a fighting style and maybe 1-2 other feats. 3.x had "micro-feats" that gave a +1 bonus; but then it also had stuff like Cleave and Great Cleave that really do improve a fighter significantly in combat. I wonder how to make a "weapons master" subclass.

Are feats the way to make a basic fighter worthwhile? Where is the balance?

I honestly don't like much about the Battlemaster. It was an attempt to recreate the 4e Warlord. Is there anything (besides "superiority dice") that can be gleaned for a basic fighter?

[DanyBallon]

If you want a basis, Anders Honoré at http://o5rgames.blogspot.com/, created an adaptation of 5e to emulate 1st edition style of play. For the Fighter he used the Champion as a base, he rolled up some of the most interesting martial feat within fighting style (it should be noted that characters are humans, and this count as the feat v. Human gets)

Dwarfs, elves and halflings are now classes and they take from other classes (i.e dwarves being a bit fighter, barbarian with dwarf features, elves being part bard, ranger and elves, and halfling being part rogue and rangers)

There’s no more subclasses, but the feature you select at level 1 (fighting style, arcane source, divine magic, or rogue scheme) will define the character you make and covers most of the classes in the PHB

[Grod_The_Giant]

So you're looking for a maximum-simplicity Fighting Man? Let's look at what the "extra" features are providing.

Main Class

Fighting Style: This is pretty passive, so I'd honestly be inclined to leave it as is. If you want to scale it back more, you could just cut it down to Defensive style. "I get more AC out of armor" seems like a pretty classic Fighting Man move.
Second Wind: This is a survivability booster; if you want to replace it, it should be with another feature that's at least broadly defensive. It provides approximately (5+lv)*3 extra hit points over the course of the day; that's a pretty substantial boost, so let's say we can replace it with, oh, +2 HP/level. Or maybe boost the hit die to a d12?
Action Surge: This is a damage boost, straight up. Smoothing it over the course of the day would give us... I dunno, +1 damage/attack?
ASIs: You kinda need these, but they're dead simple. You don't have to take a feat.
Extra Attacks: Ditto.


Subclass
The Champion is already pretty simple and passive; I don't feel like you need that much more. But hey, we're here...

Improved Critical is a slow, all-day damage boost. Another +1-2 damage/attack seems reasonable.
Remarkable Athlete is a utility ability that doesn't really fit into old-school paradigms that well, as I understand them. We could simplify to "advantage on Strength checks," perhaps.
Superior Critical can be just another flat damage boost.
Survivor: This is a huge survivability boost. It's difficult to cut this down more... maybe "ignore the first 5 points of damage from each attack?" That at least is less to keep track of round-by-round.


In Summary
To streamline things to the absolute limit... let's say that the Fighter has a d12 hit die, and gets a +1 bonus to weapon attack, damage, AC, Strength checks, and hit points/level. Extra Attacks and ASIs as normal. How's that sound?

[paladinn]

If you want a basis, Anders Honoré at http://o5rgames.blogspot.com/, created an adaptation of 5e to emulate 1st edition style of play. For the Fighter he used the Champion as a base, he rolled up some of the most interesting martial feat within fighting style (it should be noted that characters are humans, and this count as the feat v. Human gets)

Dwarfs, elves and halflings are now classes and they take from other classes (i.e dwarves being a bit fighter, barbarian with dwarf features, elves being part bard, ranger and elves, and halfling being part rogue and rangers)

There’s no more subclasses, but the feature you select at level 1 (fighting style, arcane source, divine magic, or rogue scheme) will define the character you make and covers most of the classes in the PHB

This looks kind of interesting, at least the quick view I saw. I need to determine whether I want to plot down money for it..lol

[paladinn]

So you're looking for a maximum-simplicity Fighting Man? Let's look at what the "extra" features are providing.

Main Class

Fighting Style: This is pretty passive, so I'd honestly be inclined to leave it as is. If you want to scale it back more, you could just cut it down to Defensive style. "I get more AC out of armor" seems like a pretty classic Fighting Man move.
Second Wind: This is a survivability booster; if you want to replace it, it should be with another feature that's at least broadly defensive. It provides approximately (5+lv)*3 extra hit points over the course of the day; that's a pretty substantial boost, so let's say we can replace it with, oh, +2 HP/level. Or maybe boost the hit die to a d12?
Action Surge: This is a damage boost, straight up. Smoothing it over the course of the day would give us... I dunno, +1 damage/attack?
ASIs: You kinda need these, but they're dead simple. You don't have to take a feat.
Extra Attacks: Ditto.


Subclass
The Champion is already pretty simple and passive; I don't feel like you need that much more. But hey, we're here...

Improved Critical is a slow, all-day damage boost. Another +1-2 damage/attack seems reasonable.
Remarkable Athlete is a utility ability that doesn't really fit into old-school paradigms that well, as I understand them. We could simplify to "advantage on Strength checks," perhaps.
Superior Critical can be just another flat damage boost.
Survivor: This is a huge survivability boost. It's difficult to cut this down more... maybe "ignore the first 5 points of damage from each attack?" That at least is less to keep track of round-by-round.


In Summary
To streamline things to the absolute limit... let's say that the Fighter has a d12 hit die, and gets a +1 bonus to weapon attack, damage, AC, Strength checks, and hit points/level. Extra Attacks and ASIs as normal. How's that sound?

Thanks for the input! I guess I'm looking to make 2 things. First, a good "base" fighter class with minimal extra stuff. The extras, if any, would come from a subclass. Second, I want to have a good "generic" subclass in case a fighter opts Not to subclass. I eventually see doing paladins, rangers, (maybe) barbarians and the like as fighter subs; but they all need to be built on a solid basic fighter chassis. Kind of like OD&D/1e/2e.

Also, what sort of feats would be good for a "generic" fighter, assuming s/he doesn't just take normal ASI's every opportunity?

Does that make any sense?

[DanyBallon]

This looks kind of interesting, at least the quick view I saw. I need to determine whether I want to plot down money for it..lol

If you’re only looking for inspiration, I’m pretty sure it is still possible to get the files for the first drafts in the older entries of the blog. It’s not as finished and balanced as the released product, yet it will give you ideas for your own adaptation.
But as far as I’m concerned, I bought the whole package (print copies include) and it was well worth the money! I think you can also buy only the characters options for a few bucks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Thanks for the input! I guess I'm looking to make 2 things. First, a good "base" fighter class with minimal extra stuff. The extras, if any, would come from a subclass. Second, I want to have a good "generic" subclass in case a fighter opts Not to subclass. I eventually see doing paladins, rangers, (maybe) barbarians and the like as fighter subs; but they all need to be built on a solid basic fighter chassis. Kind of like OD&D/1e/2e.

Also, what sort of feats would be good for a "generic" fighter, assuming s/he doesn't just take normal ASI's every opportunity?

Does that make any sense?
I think so, yeah.

Your options for "generic" Fighter subclass are pretty much the Battle Master and the Champion-- neither really adds any new fluff or alters how the character looks to someone in-game. The former is a little more complicated, is all.

As for good "generic" Fighter feats... the only truly generic ones I can think of are things like Lucky, Resilient, and Tough that are good for all characters. Fighters just have too much variety in terms of ranged-vs-melee, dex-vs-str, one-handed-vs-two-handed, etc.

[paladinn]

I think so, yeah.

Your options for "generic" Fighter subclass are pretty much the Battle Master and the Champion-- neither really adds any new fluff or alters how the character looks to someone in-game. The former is a little more complicated, is all.

As for good "generic" Fighter feats... the only truly generic ones I can think of are things like Lucky, Resilient, and Tough that are good for all characters. Fighters just have too much variety in terms of ranged-vs-melee, dex-vs-str, one-handed-vs-two-handed, etc.

I know WotC has been trying to keep a lid on the feat-bloat, especially for feats that just provide a +1 bonus. There just don't seem to be feats for a fighter who wants to be a master swordsman or an awesome (non-arcane) archer, especially if you've already taken those as your fighting style.

With 7 ASI's available, there oughta be Something there. IMHO.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I know WotC has been trying to keep a lid on the feat-bloat, especially for feats that just provide a +1 bonus. There just don't seem to be feats for a fighter who wants to be a master swordsman or an awesome (non-arcane) archer, especially if you've already taken those as your fighting style.

With 7 ASI's available, there oughta be Something there. IMHO.
I agree. They took a stab at a few more weapon feats in an Unearthed Arcana article, but they weren't that good. I've got another 10 or so in my Guide to Greatness that are much better, if you're interested. (There's also a relatively generic "guy with a magic sword" Fighter archetype and a relatively generic thug-type Rogue archetype)

[Tanarii]

Depends what you mean by Osar.

OD&D and Holmes Basic, Fighting Man got at level 1 was the ability to wear armor and use all weapons. High Str just gave you faster advancement with bonus XP. As they gained levels, they got faster hit progression, but that wasn't really noticible until level 4(?).

B/X and AD&D they got the above, plus if they had high (very high in AD&D) Str they got a hit bonus, and they got bigger HD.

If you want a OSR-ish experience in 5e, you probably want to limit choices to Champion Fighter, Life Cleric, Thief Rogue, and Invoker Wizard. Dwarf and Halfling must be Champions, Elf must be Eldritch Knight (or allow them to MC EK/Wizard starting between level 4 and 8).

[opaopajr]

Easiest solution for me is start by condensing the level spread back to 1 through 10 (also known as 'name level'). That immediately cuts back on half the creative features needed.

To keep the XP progression, yet elongate the time spent between 1 thru 10 so as to not finish too fast, double or triple XP needed.

Next erase Battlemasters entirely and turn *almost* all of their Maneuvers as available to all classes. Remove the dice feature entirely; no d8 (or whatever size) rolled nor added to atk or dmg. To show Fighters better proficiency in maneuvers, if you feel it is necessary, give them Expertise (PB x2 to atk roll) on all these maneuvers outright as a class feature.

I have more to add, but that's my immediate start. :smallcool:

[paladinn]

I agree. They took a stab at a few more weapon feats in an Unearthed Arcana article, but they weren't that good. I've got another 10 or so in my Guide to Greatness that are much better, if you're interested. (There's also a relatively generic "guy with a magic sword" Fighter archetype and a relatively generic thug-type Rogue archetype)

Guess I need to save up my lunch money to get your guide..lol

Just curious, what are your weapons feats like?

[paladinn]

For the basic fighter, I'm not sure about 2nd Wind or Action Surge. Improved Critical might be good for the "basic archetype". I'd like to have some weapon/combat feats available, and definitely a Cleave-type ability. In 2e, I think "weapon specialization" was reserved for fighters that didn't go paladin or ranger; I'd like to keep that model.

If I get the base solid, I could build paladins, rangers, and whatever as subclasses. They just won't get the cleave, improved critical, specialization, etc.

[paladinn]

Depends what you mean by Osar.

OD&D and Holmes Basic, Fighting Man got at level 1 was the ability to wear armor and use all weapons. High Str just gave you faster advancement with bonus XP. As they gained levels, they got faster hit progression, but that wasn't really noticible until level 4(?).

B/X and AD&D they got the above, plus if they had high (very high in AD&D) Str they got a hit bonus, and they got bigger HD.

If you want a OSR-ish experience in 5e, you probably want to limit choices to Champion Fighter, Life Cleric, Thief Rogue, and Invoker Wizard. Dwarf and Halfling must be Champions, Elf must be Eldritch Knight (or allow them to MC EK/Wizard starting between level 4 and 8).

Other than the Elf/EK, you're basically looking at the Basic (free) game with race-as-class. I'm not crazy about race-as-class. Although I do think there should be a few restrictions on which races can be which classes. Dwarf Wizard is just wrong..lol

[Grod_The_Giant]

Guess I need to save up my lunch money to get your guide..lol

Just curious, what are your weapons feats like?
Hehe.

The feats are in the vein of (and often spin off of) the ones in UA: Feats, just... made better. Blade Master, for example, lets you shift between stances focused on offense, defense, and opportunity attacks, playing up the idea of the sword as a technical weapon. Flail Mastery, on the other hand, is all about using whips and flails to trip people. There's also a Cleave feat :)

[Tanarii]

Other than the Elf/EK, you're basically looking at the Basic (free) game with race-as-class. I'm not crazy about race-as-class. Although I do think there should be a few restrictions on which races can be which classes. Dwarf Wizard is just wrong..lol
Yes. IMX most OSR games are built off of B/X, not AD&D.

[paladinn]

Yes. IMX most OSR games are built off of B/X, not AD&D.

So was Labyrinth Lord, but the AEC opens up AD&D classes. I'm a big fan

[paladinn]

Ok, so here's what I thought for the basic Fighter. The base of the class, for the first 5 levels, is pretty much the 5e progression

Lvl 1 - Fighting Style and maybe 2nd Wind (not sure)
2 - Action Surge
4 - ASI
5 - Extra Attack
8, 12, 16, 19 - ASI

If you don't opt for a different subclass at 3rd, the basic Fighter follows this:

Lvl 3 - Improved Critical
6 - Bonus ASI/Feat
7 - Cleave
9 - Indomitable 1
10 - Fighting Style 2
11 - Extra Attack 2
14 - Bonus ASI/Feat
15 - Superior Critical
17 - Action Surge 2
18 - Indomitable 2
20 - Extra Attack 3

I know feats are entirely optional in 5e; but there should be some bonus combat/weapons tactics/feats/whatever specifically for fighters who don't "subclass".

I'm still not entirely sold on 2nd Wind and Action Surge.

Any thoughts?

OR...

I know the thought for "modern" games is that there should be no "dead levels". There really Are no "dead" levels, because everyone gets hp, maybe proficiency bonus, etc. But the idea that everyone gets something shiney every level probably came from video games.

Should I ditch that idea? I think 5e suffers from developers thinking they have to invent shiney things to give every level (like 2nd Wind and Action Surge). The original fighter didn't get many new things every level. Should fighter features be more front-loaded? I could see a basic fighter being good with a fighting style, ASI's, and a few weapon feat/ures gained along the way.