Which is the better charger?

[Master O'Laughs]

So I am bored and was thinking about possibly making some version of an Uber-charger (not as specialized but close to it). I tried searching to see if the Paladin/Cavalier or Lion Totem Barb/Frenzied Berserker was the better route for damage.

The cavalier seems like it can do more damage in 1 hit through spells and being mounted, where the FB gets pounce so he can make successive massive hits.

Most Uber charger threads seem to assume FB but there is typically 1 person throwing in the cavalier. What is everyone's thoughts on how they compare to one another?

[Venger]

pounce is a necessary tax for any competent melee build, especially an ubercharger. being able to full attack far outweighs anything the cavalier can offer, and it's doable with just 1 level, versus your entire build. if you want to ubercharge, have a level of barb in there.

[heavyfuel]

In the damage department, it's no contest. Pouncing Berserker > anyone else

However, there are other things to consider, like the fact that the Pally gets access to some pretty nice spells and a freaking flying mount that lasts 2 hrs/level.

Something very important that we need to know is: Does your DM rule that Spirited Charge deals double weapon damage (aka a +5 longsword deals 2d8+10 but Power Attack and Str bonus are still only applied once) or does he rule that all damage is doubled?

[Piggy Knowles]

Either option will let you hit numbers sufficient to one-shot anything level appropriate with just a little bit of fiddling. The absolute best damage dealers tend to incorporate aspects of both, to benefit both from Spirited Charge and supreme power attack.

If you do go cavalier, you'll want pounce anyhow. That said, based on the way multipliers work in D&D, the frenzied berserker's supreme power attack ability is generally better than the cavalier's deadly charge. On paper and in a vacuum deadly charge should be better, of course. But deadly charge is your standard multiplier, which means when you stack it with other multipliers, the result is additive rather than multiplicative. Supreme power attack specifically increases the damage returns from PA, not your overall damage. However, when you incorporate other multipliers (valorous, Spirited Charge, etc.), that whole value gets multiplied as normal.

To make things really simple, let's say you have no other multipliers besides Spirited Charge. Assume both the berserker and cavalier have a 34 Strength and a +5 lance, giving base damage of 1d8+23. Both PA for full.

The berserker, using supreme power attack, gets 4:1 returns on PA and then his whole damage routine is tripled. The berserker gets 80 points of bonus damage from PA, giving him base damage of 1d8+103, which gets tripled for 3d8+309, or 322.5 average damage.

The cavalier gets the normal 2:1 returns on PA, and then his whole damage routine is quintupled. The cavalier gets 40 points of bonus damage from PA, giving him base damage of 1d8+63, which gets quintupled for 5d8+315, or 337.5 average damage.

So on paper, the cavalier wins, right? Well, in a vacuum, yeah. The problem is when you start adding in other multipliers. Go ahead and stick valorous on the weapon, so that the berserker's damage is quadrupled and the cavalier's is sextupled. Now the average damage is 4d8+412 (430 avg) for the berserker, and 6d8+378 (405 avg) for the cavalier. Every additional multiplier you manage to stack on benefits the berserker more than the cavalier. Of course, adding on more non-PA damage can close the gap and bring things back into the cavalier's favor, but that's generally made moot by the fact that the berserker has an easy way to get an untyped +10 bonus to Strength that the cavalier doesn't have access to.

But as you can see, it's close, and if you get pounce on your cavalier you're still going to be doing more than enough damage to reduce even epic foes into a fine mist.

(Edit: but in case it wasn't clear, without pounce the berserker wins by a mile. Hell, without pounce a regular barbarian without supreme power attack beats you. Get pounce on your cavalier if you're trying to do thoroughly ridiculous damage.)

[liquidformat]

So first off I think doing mounted ubercharger is probably more complicated, high level of optimization, and requires having the space to be mounted.

The basic barbarian ubercharger take Lion spirit totem, power attack, leap attack, and shock trooper for base function, that is a pretty low bar with the only controversial thing being some dms are anti Lion spirit totem. Furthermore, this build works just based on high Str and you can add dex and con as you want to further optimize it. Adding Cleave , Destructive Rage and Intimidating Rage to pickup FB sin't too hard if you take a couple levels of fighter. Furthermore, this build starts showing its power as soon as you get power attack presumably at level 1 and doesn't require any specific race.

Base mounted charger takes Spirited Charge , Weapon Focus (lance) , Mounted Combat , Ride-By Attack and you really aren't doing decent damage until you have spirited charge, so level 3 for human/strongheart halfling or 6 for anyone else. This build also requires human/strongheart halfling or fighter dip which detracts from your mount level) to hit cavalier as soon as possible which is advisable. Besides those you will want to pickup power attack, divine might and awesome smite to help give yourself more punch and maybe Powerful Charge and greater powerful charge too. So besides having a high Str and Con having a high Cha is also pretty important to doing damage and you are looking more at an all or nothing attack. Alternatively I suppose you could go paladin of freedom or Slaughter and take a barbarian dip for pounce though not sure if that works while mounted...

Over all barb ubercharger is easier, less complicated and adds more consistent damage.

[Gemini476]

Another element to consider with mounted combat is that, well, you're mounted. You need to make sure that your mount can fit in the dungeon if you're not outdoors, that your mount can survive any remaining opponents, and that you actually understand the relevant rules because they can get real funky (looking at you, Ride-By Attack).

On the other hand, some of the more exotic mounts out there can definitely give some good extra combat utility. Looking at you, dragons.

[False God]

First off: Pounce is amazing.
Second: You're not always mounted, and you can also be dismounted.

So if it's between two options one of which you'll always have active and can't be taken away from you via fairly basic mechanics, and a fiddly mechanic that you won't always have and can be taken away from you....it's not really a contest.

Mounted chargers are fun in situations where mounted charges happen: open terrain. Since you're not always in open terrain or able to ride a horse, you'll get far more use out of pounce.

[Buufreak]

On the other hand, some of the more exotic mounts out there can definitely give some good extra combat utility. Looking at you, dragons.

Cough cough, strafing breath, cough cough.

[Master O'Laughs]

Either option will let you hit numbers sufficient to one-shot anything level appropriate with just a little bit of fiddling. The absolute best damage dealers tend to incorporate aspects of both, to benefit both from Spirited Charge and supreme power attack.

If you do go cavalier, you'll want pounce anyhow. That said, based on the way multipliers work in D&D, the frenzied berserker's supreme power attack ability is generally better than the cavalier's deadly charge. On paper and in a vacuum deadly charge should be better, of course. But deadly charge is your standard multiplier, which means when you stack it with other multipliers, the result is additive rather than multiplicative. Supreme power attack specifically increases the damage returns from PA, not your overall damage. However, when you incorporate other multipliers (valorous, Spirited Charge, etc.), that whole value gets multiplied as normal.

To make things really simple, let's say you have no other multipliers besides Spirited Charge. Assume both the berserker and cavalier have a 34 Strength and a +5 lance, giving base damage of 1d8+23. Both PA for full.

The berserker, using supreme power attack, gets 4:1 returns on PA and then his whole damage routine is tripled. The berserker gets 80 points of bonus damage from PA, giving him base damage of 1d8+103, which gets tripled for 3d8+309, or 322.5 average damage.

The cavalier gets the normal 2:1 returns on PA, and then his whole damage routine is quintupled. The cavalier gets 40 points of bonus damage from PA, giving him base damage of 1d8+63, which gets quintupled for 5d8+315, or 337.5 average damage.

So on paper, the cavalier wins, right? Well, in a vacuum, yeah. The problem is when you start adding in other multipliers. Go ahead and stick valorous on the weapon, so that the berserker's damage is quadrupled and the cavalier's is sextupled. Now the average damage is 4d8+412 (430 avg) for the berserker, and 6d8+378 (405 avg) for the cavalier. Every additional multiplier you manage to stack on benefits the berserker more than the cavalier. Of course, adding on more non-PA damage can close the gap and bring things back into the cavalier's favor, but that's generally made moot by the fact that the berserker has an easy way to get an untyped +10 bonus to Strength that the cavalier doesn't have access to.

But as you can see, it's close, and if you get pounce on your cavalier you're still going to be doing more than enough damage to reduce even epic foes into a fine mist.

(Edit: but in case it wasn't clear, without pounce the berserker wins by a mile. Hell, without pounce a regular barbarian without supreme power attack beats you. Get pounce on your cavalier if you're trying to do thoroughly ridiculous damage.)

Thanks, that really helped clear it up for me :)

Currently playing a crusader/master of 9 but was thinking about an Uber charger if this dude dies.

[DEMON]

I just want to add that friends don't let friends play Frenzied Berserkers.

Yes, there are ways around the walking TPK issue, but forcing other players to focus on not making you a walking TPK is a problem in itself.

[Venger]

I just want to add that friends don't let friends play Frenzied Berserkers.

Yes, there are ways around the walking TPK issue, but forcing other players to focus on not making you a walking TPK is a problem in itself.

No one cares about their team kill special ability. At the beginning of the day, you go and expend all your tantrums yelling in a phone booth while your casters prepare spells and mundanes make breakfast. You're in the class for the boost to power attack.

[Karl Aegis]

Frenzied Berserker requires four feats to get into. Spirited Charge is 3 feats. You're now out of feats.

Cavalier requires four feats to get into. You have three feats left. You can maybe take Battle Jump, Power Attack and Leap Attack. You're now out of feats.

Both are pretty bad. I would prefer a scout/psychic warrior multiclass for improved movement and psionic lion's charge out of an item.

[MisterKaws]

In the damage department, it's no contest. Pouncing Berserker > anyone else

However, there are other things to consider, like the fact that the Pally gets access to some pretty nice spells and a freaking flying mount that lasts 2 hrs/level.

Something very important that we need to know is: Does your DM rule that Spirited Charge deals double weapon damage (aka a +5 longsword deals 2d8+10 but Power Attack and Str bonus are still only applied once) or does he rule that all damage is doubled?

I believe the rule is that all non-dice damage is multiplied along.

For this reason, some times, if you stack enough modifiers to a Lance, it might just out-do an Ubercharger. If you get spells and other stuff going on... It's not hard to surpass it at all.

[heavyfuel]

I believe the rule is that all non-dice damage is multiplied along.

For this reason, some times, if you stack enough modifiers to a Lance, it might just out-do an Ubercharger. If you get spells and other stuff going on... It's not hard to surpass it at all.

Personally I think it's more in line with the average feat that only weapon damage is multipled, though I honestly could see it being interpreted either way, and have had DMs that ruled differently.

Also, isn't multiplying only "non-dice damage" unique to critical hits?

[MisterKaws]

Personally I think it's more in line with the average feat that only weapon damage is multipled, though I honestly could see it being interpreted either way, and have had DMs that ruled differently.

Also, isn't multiplying only "non-dice damage" unique to critical hits?

The rules for multiplying damage work like that for everything, and dice damage is actually an exception to that rule. See the Glossary at the end of the PHB.

[liquidformat]

Personally I think it's more in line with the average feat that only weapon damage is multipled, though I honestly could see it being interpreted either way, and have had DMs that ruled differently.

Also, isn't multiplying only "non-dice damage" unique to critical hits?

This is the first time I have ever heard of numerical values not being multiplied... In my experience anything you add to your damage also gets multiplied unless it specifically says it doesn't like acid/fire/ice weapon mods.

This is also the reason for the mounted one taking things like divine might is a good idea.

[Mato]

Barbarian is exactly one level long when it comes to optimization, and only if you use both the lion totem & whirling frenzy variants. However without extra rage you're looking at pounce only being useful once or twice for a single encounter each day. So you may consider taking a level in it after you reached at least 5th level in paladin.

Cavalier and frenzied berserker are kind of another story. Ubercharging is one of those things that a Fighter does the best because you'll looking to ramp up to a couple hundred damage as fast as you can and those bonus feats help out tremendously. But anything more than that is a waste of time since a dead person doesn't need to be dealt more damage. And so the purpose of frenzied berserker is to increase the survivability and increase the base, non-charging, damage. While the purpose of cavalier is to trap new players who think melee damage is better than spellcasting into running an inferior character on the tabletop. Neither one should be your goto for ubercharging, but something to give you an option when you can't charge.

[heavyfuel]

The rules for multiplying damage work like that for everything, and dice damage is actually an exception to that rule. See the Glossary at the end of the PHB.

Just checked the online Glossary. There's only a mention not multiplying extra damage dice on critical hits. Other things that multiply damage that aren't critical hits multiply everything, including Sneak Attack and other things.


This is the first time I have ever heard of numerical values not being multiplied... In my experience anything you add to your damage also gets multiplied unless it specifically says it doesn't like acid/fire/ice weapon mods.

This is also the reason for the mounted one taking things like divine might is a good idea.

The Valorous weapon special ability is a bit more clear that only the weapon deals double damage, which is pretty in line with other +1 abilities. You can always deal 1d6 points of easily resistible energy damage, or you can deal 2d6+5 with almost no optimization (a medium +5 Greatsword) of non-energy damage, but only when you charge.

[MisterKaws]

Just checked the online Glossary. There's only a mention not multiplying extra damage dice on critical hits. Other things that multiply damage that aren't critical hits multiply everything, including Sneak Attack and other things.



The Valorous weapon special ability is a bit more clear that only the weapon deals double damage, which is pretty in line with other +1 abilities. You can always deal 1d6 points of easily resistible energy damage, or you can deal 2d6+5 with almost no optimization (a medium +5 Greatsword) of non-energy damage, but only when you charge.

Valorous Weapon has absolutely no mention on only doubling weapon dice. I just opened Unapproachable East and looked at it.

Again, this is mostly focused on critical hits, but multipliers stack with critical hits just fine, and the general consensus is that critical damage and multipliers work the same. Look at the sidebar at PHB page 140. It explicitly says that all modifiers get multiplied as normal.

Also, if you check the Player's Handbook glossary, instead of the online one, you'll notice that the multipliers rule also mentions a Dwarven Thrower Warhammer, and shows exacly how it works, and it does it by multiplying bonuses as normal. That's at least one precedent to it.

As for the rule about multipliers not changing sneak attack, I believe it wasn't ever clarified before the Rules Compendium, but it seems to me so intuitive that it doesn't need clarification.

[heavyfuel]

Valorous Weapon has absolutely no mention on only doubling weapon dice. I just opened Unapproachable East and looked at it.

Again, this is mostly focused on critical hits, but multipliers stack with critical hits just fine, and the general consensus is that critical damage and multipliers work the same. Look at the sidebar at PHB page 140. It explicitly says that all modifiers get multiplied as normal.

Also, if you check the Player's Handbook glossary, instead of the online one, you'll notice that the multipliers rule also mentions a Dwarven Thrower Warhammer, and shows exacly how it works, and it does it by multiplying bonuses as normal. That's at least one precedent to it.

As for the rule about multipliers not changing sneak attack, I believe it wasn't ever clarified before the Rules Compendium, but it seems to me so intuitive that it doesn't need clarification.

Sure it does.


When used in a charge, the valorous weapon deals double damage, much like a mounted warrior with the Spirited Charge feat.

The weapon deals double damage. If your weapon previously dealt 1d8+1 (medium +1 Longsword), now it deals 2d8+1. Stuff like Power Attack isn't the weapon dealing damage, it's extra damage being dealt with the weapon, not by the weapon. Like I said, I can see it being interpreted differently, but it is much more in line with other +1 abilities to only allow weapon damage to multiply. Not to mention, the game often differentiates "damage" from "weapon damage", so this language might not be accidental.

You're right that RC clarified extra damage dice never being multiplied. A terribly sad day for Decisive Strike Monks everywhere.

[MisterKaws]

Sure it does.



The weapon deals double damage. If your weapon previously dealt 1d8+1 (medium +1 Longsword), now it deals 2d8+1. Stuff like Power Attack isn't the weapon dealing damage, it's extra damage being dealt with the weapon, not by the weapon. Like I said, I can see it being interpreted differently, but it is much more in line with other +1 abilities to only allow weapon damage to multiply. Not to mention, the game often differentiates "damage" from "weapon damage", so this language might not be accidental.

That's pedantic rule lawyering at its finest. The Strength bonuses, as well as bonuses derived from other enhancements, are still part of the weapon's damage. Valorous also mentions that it stacks with Spirited Charge and Lances, which in turn stack with criticals, which by logic implies that all of those work in the same way.

[Mato]

That's pedantic rule lawyering at its finest.It's not even that.

A question, well less of a question and more like the strong assertion, about how to understand something. In example, it's what does it mean to double "weapon damage". An easy solution is to open your Player's Handbook and thumb to page 134 where D&D creates a base rule on how to handle all damage multipliers. As in all of them; critical, magical, weapon, spell, or unquantified. Here it talks about how your strength bonus can modify weapon damage and gives an example that includes it.

What heavyfuel is doing has nothing to do with the rules or playing lawyer with them. Because if he attempted to do either of these things he would have acknowledged these extremely basic rules. What he is doing is called cherry picking. And that is where you ignore all contrary evidence in order to push a point that would be wrong otherwise.

[magic9mushroom]

I'm going to note here for the record that a lot of the foot charger staples don't technically work with a mounted charge. This is because, technically, you are not charging. Your mount is charging. Both the PHB and RC use the exact same wording:


If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge.

(The exceptions here are, of course, centaurs and other "use mounted combat feats without a mount" creatures.)

[Eldariel]

You can always just play a charging spellcaster too. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314454-3-5-Cleric-Charger) They honestly tend to be better (since martial chargers rely on spellcasters to get to do their stuff).

[magic9mushroom]

You can always just play a charging spellcaster too. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314454-3-5-Cleric-Charger) They honestly tend to be better (since martial chargers rely on spellcasters to get to do their stuff).

The other alternative is Hulking Hurler, which is far more effective than a charger due to range. Admittedly, you can't get a HH without losing two caster levels and a Cleric can go the charger route without sacrificing any, but a martial-only HH beats a martial-only ubercharger every time (at least, sub-epic).

[Eldariel]

The other alternative is Hulking Hurler, which is far more effective than a charger due to range. Admittedly, you can't get a HH without losing two caster levels and a Cleric can go the charger route without sacrificing any, but a martial-only HH beats a martial-only ubercharger every time (at least, sub-epic).

Though Warblade/Swordsage for Bounding Assault and e.g. Feathered Wings Graft at least gives a fair reach and mobility to any Charger.

[magic9mushroom]

Though Warblade/Swordsage for Bounding Assault and e.g. Feathered Wings Graft at least gives a fair reach and mobility to any Charger.

Um, reach? Both of those are mobility, not reach.

(Also, why oh why did they call that manoeuvre Bounding Assault when there's also a feat called that from PHB2?)

[Eldariel]

Um, reach? Both of those are mobility, not reach.

Well, with "reach" I mean the range of targets they can reach with their "kill you"-trick each round.


(Also, why oh why did they call that manoeuvre Bounding Assault when there's also a feat called that from PHB2?)

A question I've had more than one headache with myself...

[heavyfuel]

That's pedantic rule lawyering at its finest. The Strength bonuses, as well as bonuses derived from other enhancements, are still part of the weapon's damage. Valorous also mentions that it stacks with Spirited Charge and Lances, which in turn stack with criticals, which by logic implies that all of those work in the same way.

I agree it's a fine line (which you might call being pedantic), but you have to agree that it's an extremely powerful ability if we allow it to multiply all damage. Also, if multiplying all damage was the intent, why not say that? Why didn't the designers say "you deal double damage"? Instead they chose to say "the weapon deals double damage". But whatever... Ruling either way doesn't break the game Ubercharges still exist regardless.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm going to note here for the record that a lot of the foot charger staples don't technically work with a mounted charge. This is because, technically, you are not charging. Your mount is charging. Both the PHB and RC use the exact same wording:



(The exceptions here are, of course, centaurs and other "use mounted combat feats without a mount" creatures.)

Yeah, most of the damage record builds use tauric for this reason.

Anyhow I agree with most of what people are saying re: chargers often being better with another class entirely and with focusing only on sufficient damage rather than maximum possible damage (after all, in the vast majority of encounters, there's no functional difference between dealing 500 HP of damage and 5x106 HP damage if your opponent only has 490 HP to begin with). That said the OP specifically asked which has a higher damage ceiling, frenzied berserker or cavalier, which is what I was answering with my previous post.

[liquidformat]

The other alternative is Hulking Hurler, which is far more effective than a charger due to range. Admittedly, you can't get a HH without losing two caster levels and a Cleric can go the charger route without sacrificing any, but a martial-only HH beats a martial-only ubercharger every time (at least, sub-epic).

On a side note I have been playing a war hulk/hulking hurler that hit epic not too long ago, I threw a castle on the BBEG...

[magic9mushroom]

On a side note I have been playing a war hulk/hulking hurler that hit epic not too long ago, I threw a castle on the BBEG...

The reason I said "sub-epic" is because at epic there is this one feat called Heavenly Guardian Defence Exceptional Deflection.

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery1/44291_C1_exceptionald50299.jpg

(This is the image of Exceptional Deflection + Reflect Arrows from the Epic Level Handbook. This image was not taken from a pirate site; the art from the ELH is publically available in an art gallery on Wizards' website where I've hotlinked to it.)

Now, you could potentially argue that Hulking Hurler's Area Attack hurl trick can bypass Exceptional Deflection, although there are arguments each way (it is still a ranged attack that hits you). But that feat is a massive issue for any trick whatsoever that involves a ranged attack roll (Orb/ray metamagic stacking is another obvious one). I'm not kidding about the Exalted comparison.

[liquidformat]

The reason I said "sub-epic" is because at epic there is this one feat called Heavenly Guardian Defence Exceptional Deflection.

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery1/44291_C1_exceptionald50299.jpg

(This is the image of Exceptional Deflection + Reflect Arrows from the Epic Level Handbook. This image was not taken from a pirate site; the art from the ELH is publically available in an art gallery on Wizards' website where I've hotlinked to it.)

Now, you could potentially argue that Hulking Hurler's Area Attack hurl trick can bypass Exceptional Deflection, although there are arguments each way (it is still a ranged attack that hits you). But that feat is a massive issue for any trick whatsoever that involves a ranged attack roll (Orb/ray metamagic stacking is another obvious one). I'm not kidding about the Exalted comparison.

Well then I am glad my dm is nice and lets my mundane have nice things <(").

[MisterKaws]

I agree it's a fine line (which you might call being pedantic), but you have to agree that it's an extremely powerful ability if we allow it to multiply all damage. Also, if multiplying all damage was the intent, why not say that? Why didn't the designers say "you deal double damage"? Instead they chose to say "the weapon deals double damage". But whatever... Ruling either way doesn't break the game Ubercharges still exist regardless.

If you read Mato's post(kudos btw for finding the specific page), and check the relevant page on the PHB, you'll notice that the rules over there are quite a bit more specific. Since you seem so reluctant to open your PHB, I'll spare you the effort.


Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage (see Multiplying, page 304).
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, are never multiplied.

Is that clear enough now? I don't really get why you're even trying to weaken an already hard-to-execute strategy. Mounted combat is already full of bumps along the way. They don't need more.

[ayvango]

requires having the space to be mounted.
.
Be a small character atop of a riding dog.

[liquidformat]

Be a small character atop of a riding dog.

yep that is a way to handle it, though for example with choke points in kobold caves that may still be an issue...

[ayvango]

yep that is a way to handle it, though for example with choke points in kobold caves that may still be an issue...
Tunnel Riding feat.

[heavyfuel]

If you read Mato's post(kudos btw for finding the specific page), and check the relevant page on the PHB, you'll notice that the rules over there are quite a bit more specific. Since you seem so reluctant to open your PHB, I'll spare you the effort.

Is that clear enough now? I don't really get why you're even trying to weaken an already hard-to-execute strategy. Mounted combat is already full of bumps along the way. They don't need more.

If we were talking about multiplying the entire damage, this would be correct. What I'm saying is that this rule shouldn't even apply, since we're just multiplying damage done by the weapon.

Specific trumps general. The PHB tells you how to normally multiply, but if something says to only multiply part of the damage (damage done by the weapon, in this case), then go by that specific rule.

Otherwise, why say "the valorous weapon' deals double damage" instead of "you deal double damage"?

I'm tired of repeating myself. Clearly you're not gonna change your mind, just as I'm not gonna change mine. So... Agree to disagree?

[Mato]

Anyhow I agree with most of what people are saying re: chargers often being better with another class entirely.I see things a completely different way: Charging isn't a class, it's a choice in combat.

What someone considers to be the minimum standards for an ubercharge may very. For some it's leap attack and shock trooper which allows you to hit hard without a loss of accuracy, but it requires 6th level and a chain of at least four feats limiting you to human, monk/fighter, or flaws and it still dosn't have any other multipliers. Someone can focus just on multipliers, like a dragonborn orc with headlong rush, and deal more damage using less feats. For others still it's the requirement of pounce because you can strike more than one target. But pounce doesn't grant extra attacks like great cleave does, it just allows you to hit another barricade. For me through it's enough damage to kill. So for example, a 1st halfing druid with a wooden lance is an ubercharger for his level. Nothing about his charge makes him better than a barbarian, the fact his class is druid does because he can do more than what everyone else can.

[Red Fel]

Really? We're discussing the possibility of a Barbarian charger and nobody has mentioned Half-Orc Racial Substitution Levels?

At level 2, a Half-Orc can lose Uncanny Dodge and instead gain Reckless Charge. That grants a +4 to attack (but -4 to AC) while charging. Especially at low levels, that's significant.

Now, Whirling Frenzy has been mentioned, and it plays so nicely with Reckless Charge. Whirling Frenzy gives you a bonus attack and +2 to AC (and Ref saves), but applies a -2 penalty to attacks. Reckless Charge offsets that -2 to attack with a +4; the -4 to AC is then offset by Whirling Frenzy's -2 to AC.

At that point, the penalty from Power Attack almost isn't even a penalty.

[MisterKaws]

If we were talking about multiplying the entire damage, this would be correct. What I'm saying is that this rule shouldn't even apply, since we're just multiplying damage done by the weapon.

Specific trumps general. The PHB tells you how to normally multiply, but if something says to only multiply part of the damage (damage done by the weapon, in this case), then go by that specific rule.

Otherwise, why say "the valorous weapon' deals double damage" instead of "you deal double damage"?

I'm tired of repeating myself. Clearly you're not gonna change your mind, just as I'm not gonna change mine. So... Agree to disagree?

Because it's Unapproachable East. One of the worst books released by WotC in terms of editing. I'm okay with disagreeing, just hope you never end up having to DM at a table with a Lion Totem Barbarian and a Paladin together.

Then again, who knows, maybe the Paladin player's fetal position weeping changes your mind.

[Mato]

Then again, who knows, maybe the Paladin player's fetal position weeping changes your mind.It shouldn't.

The paladin player isn't weeping because everything he does outshines the barbarian in every area.
He is weeping because he realized should have just played a cleric. :smallsmile:

[ayvango]

I see things a completely different way: Charging isn't a class, it's a choice in combat.

I believe it is totally possible build ubercharger druid with 1-lvl dip into barbarian or even full druid.

[Maat Mons]

Not to undermine the "agreement to disagree" you guys just arrived at, but I'd have to say that the reason Valorous says "the weapon deals double damage" and not "you deal double damage" is because two-weapon fighting and pounce both exist. So, if you're going to do a pouncing charge with two weapons, you need Valorous on both weapons, not just one of them. (Or, rather, if you only put it one one of them, only attacks made with that weapon get the bonus.)

Or, heck, if they'd just said "you deal double damage on a charge," put Valorous on a gauntlet or armor spikes, but don't even bother attacking with the enchanted weapon. You could save room on your greatsword for other special abilities, because having Valorous on a poison ring you don't actually use still somehow allows the special ability to affect your attacks with your main-hand weapon.

[MisterKaws]

Not to undermine the "agreement to disagree" you guys just arrived at, but I'd have to say that the reason Valorous says "the weapon deals double damage" and not "you deal double damage" is because two-weapon fighting and pounce both exist. So, if you're going to do a pouncing charge with two weapons, you need Valorous on both weapons, not just one of them. (Or, rather, if you only put it one one of them, only attacks made with that weapon get the bonus.)

Or, heck, if they'd just said "you deal double damage on a charge," put Valorous on a gauntlet or armor spikes, but don't even bother attacking with the enchanted weapon. You could save room on your greatsword for other special abilities, because having Valorous on a poison ring you don't actually use still somehow allows the special ability to affect your attacks with your main-hand weapon.

Probably this, considering people use Iaijutsu Focus by drawing bayonets on ranged weapons.

[Eldariel]

I believe it is totally possible build ubercharger druid with 1-lvl dip into barbarian or even full druid.

Why would you need Barbarian? A good bunch of Wildshape forms innately have Pounce, and you have a Wildshape feat that grants Pounce to any form.

[Mato]

I believe it is totally possible build ubercharger druid.It is. By level 5 they can WS into a lion for 21 str and, including rakes, they make five attacks on a charge to make up for no THF. You just put it through a multiplier like battle jump.

For example, a 6th level druid takes battle jump, natural spell, and idk something like greenbound summoning so his tiger form can deal 2d8+12, 2d8+12, 4d6+6, 2d8+6, 2d8+6, & make a free grapple attempt (avg 92) on a charge which requires several successful attacks but it's fairly considerable. And to compare, a 6th non-human 18str barbarian's only feats is the shock trooper chain so in 50% of encounters where he can actually use frenzy he only deals up to 2d6+21x3 (avg 84) damage. Valorous would consume 61% of it's wealth for 174 damage during peaks but that's a hefty price limiting to being a one trick pony, plus when not frenzy it's output is only 2d6+18x2 (avg 50). Through this example is a little off, no one builds a barbarian-based charger unless the DM allows flaws.

[Eldariel]

It is. By level 5 they can WS into a lion for 21 str and, including rakes, they make five attacks on a charge to make up for no THF. You just put it through a multiplier like battle jump.

For example, a 6th level druid takes battle jump, natural spell, and idk something like greenbound summoning so his tiger form can deal 2d8+12, 2d8+12, 4d6+6, 2d8+6, 2d8+6, & make a free grapple attempt (avg 92) on a charge which requires several successful attacks but it's fairly considerable. And to compare, a 6th non-human 18str barbarian's only feats is the shock trooper chain so in 50% of encounters where he can actually use frenzy he only deals up to 2d6+21x3 (avg 84) damage. Valorous would consume 61% of it's wealth for 174 damage during peaks but that's a hefty price limiting to being a one trick pony, plus when not frenzy it's output is only 2d6+18x2 (avg 50). Through this example is a little off, no one builds a barbarian-based charger unless the DM allows flaws.

Or good ol' Fleshraker where you get to add Venomfire and CL optimisation for 5d6+ per attack.

[ayvango]

Druid could use lion charge spell and use his companions as mount to make charges while riding.

[MisterKaws]

Druid could use lion charge spell and use his companions as mount to make charges while riding.

Easier to use it shared into the companion.