Ranger class remastered

[Scuronotte]

Thought to share version we have been playing. This version is the spell casting version (note there is a non-spell casting version as well.)

https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-LiLlbZfozU16w6hzfY6

The premise of the changes are to

Eliminate need for GM to change adventure to appease the ranger player
Changed features that are narrowly focused
Made it a prepared caster as it is a class that can adapt, ie McGuyver
Offer a limited usage ability to cast Hunter's Mark Spell without concentration, but limited time. Thus allowing it to be used with other concentration spells. (Also somewhat appeases players who wanted it as a feature)
Enforce the Ranger's ability to survive in the wild by offering other skills such as swimming and climbing

[Kane0]

Two in one week! Must be something in the air.

- Natural explorer/scout, seems solid
- TWF style; I personally put that bulletpoint in the Dual Wielder feat without the heavy armor bit*
- Prepped spells, thumbs up
- Hunter's Mark, I like the idea but I think you're approaching the problem from the wrong way around. IMO if concentration is a problem then we should be looking at the spells that compete with Hunter's Mark and making them competitive choices rather than just taking it away from Hunter's Mark (which I think is pretty balanced)
- Cover of Darkness. Bonus action search! I did exactly the same thing so I'm biased in favor of it. Darkvision doubles up with Gloomstalker however
- Alacrity I think is overtuned. Ranger isn't actually bad at combat truth be told, getting massive initiative bonuses that also doubledip with Gloomstalker isn't necessary
- Land's Stride good stuff
- HiPS; level 10+ is too little, too late. If the Ranger was stealth focused this should have come up before level 5, tiers 3-4 are not the place to introduce new aspects of class philosophy. Hiding your camp is neat though, I like that.
- Vanish; see HiPS, but this is also a ripoff of the Rogue's 2nd level feature. Like HiPS I vote scrap it and bring in something else
- Master scout is cool, though i'm not so sure about quadruple proficiency. Certainly better than Foe Slayer though.
- Any changes to your subclasses? What version of beastmaster are you using? Do the PHB subclasses get bonus spells like the Xan's ones?

/2cp

*I have my reasons, will go into it only if asked.

[Scuronotte]

- TWF style; I personally put that bulletpoint in the Dual Wielder feat without the heavy armor bit*

Did not want to make a player too take a feat to gain the benefit. Reason for Heavy Armor restriction is that you are theoretically trading better armor protection for an extra attack without using a bonus action

Of course I am going to ask for your reasons.



- Hunter's Mark, I like the idea but I think you're approaching the problem from the wrong way around. IMO if concentration is a problem then we should be looking at the spells that compete with Hunter's Mark and making them competitive choices rather than just taking it away from Hunter's Mark (which I think is pretty balanced)

I agree that Hunter's mark is balanced, but a variant should have been a class feature. Since we do have the spell, the best way was to eliminate concentration and decrease the duration so not to make it OP. By removing concentration, you can add other spells that require concentration but what it also does is that there is no fear of losing the spell if you fail a concentration check when taking damage or are incapacitated that you lose the spell. Its a weaker variant of the Paladins Improved Divine smite as its uses are limited based on spell slots available and your level.



- Cover of Darkness. Bonus action search! I did exactly the same thing so I'm biased in favor of it. Darkvision doubles up with Gloomstalker however

The conclaves have been changed slightly



- Alacrity I think is overtuned. Ranger isn't actually bad at combat truth be told, getting massive initiative bonuses that also doubledip with Gloomstalker isn't necessary

Overtuned? They are not bad at combat, but they do fall behind slightly at later levels.
Also, the ranger is the only martial base class that does not offer a core class feature geared towards combat bonus attack or damage (other than a single extra attack and FS):
Fighter : Action surge, 2 more extra attacks
Monks: Martial Arts damage, empowered strikes, stunning strike, flurry of blows
Paladin - Divine Smites, Improved Divine Smite
Rogue : sneak attack

Regarding double dip with Gloomstalker, again the conlaves have been changed slightly



- HiPS; level 10+ is too little, too late. If the Ranger was stealth focused this should have come up before level 5, tiers 3-4 are not the place to introduce new aspects of class philosophy. Hiding your camp is neat though, I like that.

The problem is how many features can you include early on. Then the class is to front loaded. Also used the original framework from the PHB, just expanded its potential uses



- Vanish; see HiPS, but this is also a ripoff of the Rogue's 2nd level feature. Like HiPS I vote scrap it and bring in something else

The problem is how many features can you include early on. Then the class is to front loaded. The other alternative was flipping Alacrity and Vanish features. But Alacrity at level 14 was to late. And moving it to 10th level and moving HiPS and Natural Explorer improvement to 14 was problematic. Also used the original framework from the PHB, just expanded its potential uses

Features are shared by many classes. And if that is the line of thinking, then the Rogue Scout should not exist. As written it is a better Ranger than a ranger. Ranger's have to be in their favored terrain to utilize their skills effectively. A Rogue Scout is skilled in all terrains.



- Master scout is cool, though i'm not so sure about quadruple proficiency. Certainly better than Foe Slayer though.

Quadruple proficiency? If you mean expertise in many skills, well it is 20th level. By then you can say the ranger is expert in all natural terrains.

Anything is better than Foe Slayer.



- Any changes to your subclasses? What version of beastmaster are you using? Do the PHB subclasses get bonus spells like the Xan's ones?

Yes we have made changes to all the subclasses/conclaves. All get bonus spells, and since they are prepared casters, they get 2 instead of 1

We have created our own version of beastmaster. The beast master is what we tinker with over time as we play along. We have also made the ranger class a non-spell casting version that we mostly play using the same class frame work here. We added features to levels 9, 13, & 17, and modified the conclaves/subclasses slightly to compensate for damage output.

Edit. Sorry, forgot to ask to see your version.

[Kane0]

Did not want to make a player too take a feat to gain the benefit. Reason for Heavy Armor restriction is that you are theoretically trading better armor protection for an extra attack without using a bonus action

Of course I am going to ask for your reasons.

TWF is actually a pretty solid option before level 5 and in featless games, where it really starts to falter is when it is standing next to PAM, GWM, CBE, etc most other means of getting bonus action attacks are comparable or superior to TWF. Changing the Dual Wielder feat to remove the bonus action requirement makes TWF more worthwhile compared to the other bonus action attack options as well as solidifying a niche for itself without adding raw power in Tier 1.
Secondarily, this would make it considerably better than other FS options and your ranger doesn't get heavy armor prof anyways

https://imgur.com/VD3b59g




I agree that Hunter's mark is balanced, but a variant should have been a class feature. Since we do have the spell, the best way was to eliminate concentration and decrease the duration so not to make it OP. By removing concentration, you can add other spells that require concentration but what it also does is that there is no fear of losing the spell if you fail a concentration check when taking damage or are incapacitated that you lose the spell. Its a weaker variant of the Paladins Improved Divine smite as its uses are limited based on spell slots available and your level.

Similar dilemma with Hex and the Warlock then. I've got no real issue with what you've done, just pointing out an alternative. Ensnaring strike is pretty damn good though, freely pairing that with Hunter's Mark could be a big deal.



Overtuned? They are not bad at combat, but they do fall behind slightly at later levels.
Also, the ranger is the only martial base class that does not offer a core class feature geared towards combat bonus attack or damage (other than a single extra attack and FS):
Fighter : Action surge, 2 more extra attacks
Monks: Martial Arts damage, empowered strikes, stunning strike, flurry of blows
Paladin - Divine Smites, Improved Divine Smite
Rogue : sneak attack

Regarding double dip with Gloomstalker, again the conlaves have been changed slightly

You are correct however not counting Hunter's Mark each subclass adds attacks or damage in some form or other. Compare to what those classes get at their first subclass break, far fewer damage adding features. By level 5 when everyone gets extra attack (bar rogue of course) things seems to be largely evened out. Though once you hit Tier 3 rangers definitely start lagging behind without subclasses saving them again.

Do you have a link available for the subclass changes? That would provide some extra context.



The problem is how many features can you include early on. Then the class is to front loaded. The other alternative was flipping Alacrity and Vanish features. But Alacrity at level 14 was to late. And moving it to 10th level and moving HiPS and Natural Explorer improvement to 14 was problematic. Also used the original framework from the PHB, just expanded its potential uses

Features are shared by many classes. And if that is the line of thinking, then the Rogue Scout should not exist. As written it is a better Ranger than a ranger. Ranger's have to be in their favored terrain to utilize their skills effectively. A Rogue Scout is skilled in all terrains.

So personally I just scrap the stealth features entirely to clear design space. If you want to be stealthy there is proficiency, spells, feats and MCing for that.

Using the same mechanics across classes is fine, but it's a slippery slope sort of deal. Vanish is a worse version of a Tier 1 Rogue feature given in Tier 3 which just doesn't feel great as a player (I've seen so. many. rangers. stop at level 5-6 and just MC rogue from there) and could be replaced with something better.

Alacrity in that level 6 spot is solid, I was just worried that it did too many things in one hit especially when coupled with unaltered Gloomstalker. Not having seen your subclass changes I'd recommend one init bonus and the 10' movespeed boost. Hell, barbarians get the same movespeed boost at level 5 so you could probably move that there.



Quadruple proficiency? If you mean expertise in many skills, well it is 20th level. By then you can say the ranger is expert in all natural terrains.

Anything is better than Foe Slayer.

Ah my bad, I incorrectly read 'excluding skills that already include double proficiency' as 'including'.

Capstones are hard to eyeball. They're almost by definition supposed to be OP, but at the same time not gamebreaking and at least roughly on the same playing field across classes. Playtesting without the previous 19 levels worth of experience is also messy which doesn't help.



Yes we have made changes to all the subclasses/conclaves. All get bonus spells, and since they are prepared casters, they get 2 instead of 1

We have created our own version of beastmaster. The beast master is what we tinker with over time as we play along. We have also made the ranger class a non-spell casting version that we mostly play using the same class frame work here. We added features to levels 9, 13, & 17, and modified the conclaves/subclasses slightly to compensate for damage output.

Edit. Sorry, forgot to ask to see your version.

Ah great, would love to see them!

I've also had a hard time with the BM, with many iterations. I personally don't like taking casting away from the ranger* but don't hold it against those who prefer it that way.

My version is in my sig. Posts are split for classes, subclasses, feats and spells. I tried to keep changes from stock to a minimum but I suppose the Ranger and Sorc are exceptions.

*I believe it to be a baby-with-the-bathwater approach, it is a drastic change that takes away so many aspects that people often end up trying to replace with same-but-different things that just don't offer the same options and/or power. If you think rangers should be good at tracking/stealth/traps/utility/handling critters/archery/skirmishing/healing there are spells for all of that and more, just pick the ones you want and leave the rest you don't. Magic doesn't have to be done with a pointy hat and pinches of sulphur, don't get hung up on the 'Aragorn wasn't magical' argument.
/rant

[Scuronotte]

TWF is actually a pretty solid option before level 5 and in featless games, where it really starts to falter is when it is standing next to PAM, GWM, CBE, etc most other means of getting bonus action attacks are comparable or superior to TWF. Changing the Dual Wielder feat to remove the bonus action requirement makes TWF more worthwhile compared to the other bonus action attack options as well as solidifying a niche for itself without adding raw power in Tier 1.
Secondarily, this would make it considerably better than other FS options and your ranger doesn't get heavy armor prof anyways

The TWF style is not exclusive to Rangers. It is for any class that has or will have TWF style. So a Fighter, or a Paladin that has TWF can benefit. Maybe I should state that in notes.


Using the same mechanics across classes is fine, but it's a slippery slope sort of deal. Vanish is a worse version of a Tier 1 Rogue feature given in Tier 3 which just doesn't feel great as a player (I've seen so. many. rangers. stop at level 5-6 and just MC rogue from there) and could be replaced with something better.

The original PHB version had Vanish (without the Dash bonus action) and Favored Enemy Improvement at level 14. The thought process was remove the FE ribbon and replace with Dash would be an improvement. The recent UA Ranger left the original Vanish at 14th level which was a slap in the face. We kept/keep debating whether to include Disengage as a bonus action or using Trapper's tools as a bonus action. Been working on this since the PHB Ranger came out. Tis and the Sorcerer.


Alacrity in that level 6 spot is solid, I was just worried that it did too many things in one hit especially when coupled with unaltered Gloomstalker. Not having seen your subclass changes I'd recommend one init bonus and the 10' movespeed boost. Hell, barbarians get the same movespeed boost at level 5 so you could probably move that there.

Ah great, would love to see them!
]

https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-Lk6jpGrZiOaHKr4PAmG

Note The Deep Stalker is Gloom Stalker. Never changed the name from the UA version. Maybe should to avoid confusion, but the non-spell version is so different.