Biggest Baddest Demons: How did you determine if they hit? (No HD, just HP)

[johnbragg]

Usually in 1E, you used the Monster attack table, found the row for the monsters' HD, and rolled.

What did you do for any of the named devils or demons? They just have their number of hit points, no HD listed.

I feel like this is a stupid question, but I'm asking anyway

[Particle_Man]

Either use the highest monster category or let them auto hit, I guess.

[meschlum]

Simple!

You consulted your DMG, pages 200+, and looked up the monster summary there. This tells you the THAC0 of every monster in the monster manual (well, listed monsters. Leaders are the like are not included). This told you that demon lords and their ilk had THAC0 of 7, which is what you get for the most advanced monster hit die value.

Creatures without specified hit dice that were not in the DMG fell into three categories:

- Monster manuals (for instance, the new devil and demon lords introduced in MM2, the elemental princes in Fiend Folio...) Have nothing specified, but given the DMG precedent, a THAC0 of 7 seems sensible

- Legends and Lore: Gods had a tendency to have levels, as well as fixed hit points. Presumably, any god with enough Fighter levels would have a THAC0 lower than 7, while a god with only a few Wizard levels could be lower. These also have attributes, which would affect their THAC0 values.

- As a side note, some monsters are called out as having specific Strength values (e.g. Ogres, some Daemons, Giants...) Whether this affects their THAC0 and damage is left as an exercise to the reader.

- Weird cases (there is a creature whose only description is that it is a werewolf that is also a vampire - no stats, nothing). With no way to determine hit dice, hit points, or much of anything else, these require more work to create. On the other hand, they are ideally rare outside of specific GM efforts, in which case the GM can be entrusted with the job of deciding their THAC0.

- One could be inspired by the Dual / Multi classing rules, which indicate that THAC0 is the best of available options, but does not really stack (a Fighter 5 / Cleric 5 has the THAC0 of a Fighter 5, nothing better)

[rredmond]

Simple!

You consulted your DMG, pages 200+, and looked up the monster summary there. This tells you the THAC0 of every monster in the monster manual (well, listed monsters. Leaders are the like are not included). This told you that demon lords and their ilk had THAC0 of 7, which is what you get for the most advanced monster hit die value.

meschlum's got the answer you are looking for I believe. I know that folks have fussed around with taking the average of the d8 HD (IIRC it is 4.5) and divided that by the HPs of the demon. But in reality they all just roll on the 16+ Monster To Hit Matrix. :)
Have fun!

[knag]

meschlum's got the answer you are looking for I believe. I know that folks have fussed around with taking the average of the d8 HD (IIRC it is 4.5) and divided that by the HPs of the demon. But in reality they all just roll on the 16+ Monster To Hit Matrix. :)
Have fun!

Monster Manual in the entry for Golems says to do exactly that, so that is a valid method. It also works for things like Beholders who also just have hp listed.

[rredmond]

Monster Manual in the entry for Golems says to do exactly that, so that is a valid method. It also works for things like Beholders who also just have hp listed. Thanks! Didn't think about checking the Golems section.
Be well.