How balanced would a no component caster be?

[Kyutaru]

One of my players wants to play a character that doesn't require components. He's asked me to make a houserule or brew up a class that allows his spells to always be subtle. Naturally this would need to come with consequences and can't be as good as the classes usually are at face value. I suggested Sorcerer but the limited sorcery points was a no go. He doesn't want to be prevented from always being subtle because he plans on playing a mute character who functions more like a psychic that merely wills powers into existence. I get the feeling he's adopting an anime influence.

Okay, challenge accepted, but now where do I go? I figured a sorcerer would be a good place to start and shaving off the extra metamagic options would be a given. But what else might be needed to turn this into a balanced class?

This one stumped me because there hasn't been another edition where sorcery points were used and in the past metamagics that eschewed components did so one at a time. How much power is behind being able to do it perpetually for all components?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

A sorclock will have SP regen on sort rest.
You can use spell points and make them act as SP.

Casting from an item have no components, that can be of use.
Maybe give him the ability to create a one time use item as spells he prepared with time limit of a long rest.

The downside is that he is stuck with the spells he made and they can be stollen or lost.

[ProsecutorGodot]

From what I understand, that's just psionics. You can steal a bit of inspiration from the Mystic UA or the Gith since they have psionic casting.

With the description of what he wants to play, the Mystic UA fits the bill best. It even has added quirk tables because with great psychic powers comes great mental instability.

As far as balance is concerned though, that's going to be tough. The Mystic UA is equal parts terrible and overpowered, it's a mess.

[DeTess]

One of my players wants to play a character that doesn't require components. He's asked me to make a houserule or brew up a class that allows his spells to always be subtle. Naturally this would need to come with consequences and can't be as good as the classes usually are at face value. I suggested Sorcerer but the limited sorcery points was a no go. He doesn't want to be prevented from always being subtle because he plans on playing a mute character who functions more like a psychic that merely wills powers into existence. I get the feeling he's adopting an anime influence.

Okay, challenge accepted, but now where do I go? I figured a sorcerer would be a good place to start and shaving off the extra metamagic options would be a given. But what else might be needed to turn this into a balanced class?

This one stumped me because there hasn't been another edition where sorcery points were used and in the past metamagics that eschewed components did so one at a time. How much power is behind being able to do it perpetually for all components?

There are two ways to go about this. The first way is having it have the crunch of component-less casting, which means no detection of casting possible, and therefore no counter-spelling and the like. For this, I'd take a look at a spell-point variant and reduce the size of the pool by an appropriate amount to account for continual subtle spell.

Alternatively, you can give him the fluff without impacting the crunch much. It seems from your description that your character wants to play a mute psychic, not a character that can't be counter-spelled. Going this route, just fluff his spell as causing some kind of sensory effect (maybe his eyes start glowing, or anyone within 60 feet hears a high-pitched buzzing noise or whatever, discuss this with your player) whenever he starts casting that allows for people to counterspell, and maybe dock him half his first ASI to account for casting without performing somatic components (which is, essentially, half of the warcaster feat which allows you to use somatic components with your hands full).

[Zetakya]

Sun Soul Monk?

[Kornaki]

If he really just wants to be mute, you can just have his spells have a somatic component, and maybe even make a crackling sound when he's casting them. Then you don't have to worry about balance and he can have whatever flavor he wants.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If he really just wants to be mute, you can just have his spells have a somatic component, and maybe even make a crackling sound when he's casting them. Then you don't have to worry about balance and he can have whatever flavor he wants.
This is a good starting offer, I think.

The Mystic might be closer to what they want, but (as ProsecutorGodot noted) the balance is... kinda wonky. I suggest cutting their pp pool in three and making it recharge on a short rest, and adding a rule about only being able to spend pp on one power a turn. That cuts the structual nova problem down a lot, leaving only isolated powers as problems.

[Man_Over_Game]

Must take the Message cantrip.
All of his spells are subtle.
He gets one less metamagic.
The cost of his metamagics is increased by 1 more than they'd normally cost.
Half of his levels (rounded up) have to be in Sorcerer.



That's how I'd do it. Impossible to counter, but fairly expensive and limited.

[Maelynn]

One of my players wants to play a character that doesn't require components. He's asked me to make a houserule or brew up a class that allows his spells to always be subtle. Naturally this would need to come with consequences and can't be as good as the classes usually are at face value. I suggested Sorcerer but the limited sorcery points was a no go. He doesn't want to be prevented from always being subtle because he plans on playing a mute character who functions more like a psychic that merely wills powers into existence. I get the feeling he's adopting an anime influence.

The first 2 bolded bits are different things, because there's still the material component. If he wants to cast spells by his 'will' alone, then those would also have to be removed. That's not only a subtle spell, but also one that benefits from what in 3.5 was called the Eschew Materials feat.

Given that in 3.5 it was a feat, I would not homebrew an entire class but make it a feat he'd have to use up for it.


If he really just wants to be mute, you can just have his spells have a somatic component, and maybe even make a crackling sound when he's casting them. Then you don't have to worry about balance and he can have whatever flavor he wants.

That's also a nice idea, to refluff components this way. Make a verbal component an auditory component. Make a somatic somponent a visual component (glowing eyes, visible aura, etc).

The thing is, while he probably just asks it for fluff reasons the removal of components also give it quite a bit of power: without components, it can't be counterspelled. Without components, it isn't restricted by silence or underwater or whatever. You can't just make him immune to all those control options.

[Kyutaru]

That is indeed the crux of the issue. Being able to cast while grappling, being able to cast in heavy armor, being able to cast while silenced, lots of ways to cast that can't be stopped by traditional means.

I'm all for swapping the visual components to keep it able to be counterspelled. But I don't know if I can manage to keep all the rest in since he doesn't want to wave his hands around and can't speak.

[Sigreid]

Since the verbal component is described as the important part not being the words but the tone, pitch, rhythm and meter, how about a musical instrument. Personally, I like the idea of a mute caster that does his thing using a slide-whistle.

[Maelynn]

he doesn't want to wave his hands around and can't speak.

Not even a Psion in 4e had the ability to completely remove all components. You could look into some 5e conversions for that class, but if that still isn't good enough for him I'd just tell him to suck it. D&D isn't the right system for a spellcaster who needs no components whatsoever.

[Sigreid]

I think the key is it opponents need something that they can use to identify the source of the effect. He needs subtle casting to avoid that

[Teaguethebean]

I am certain your player wants to be a psionic type character but the mystic is famously overpowered so many just make a racial feat for gith and other psionic races that allow spells to be cast without components unless they have a listed gold peice cost. That could give your player exactly what they want but they would lose something through spending a feat

[Grimmnist]

Must take the Message cantrip.
All of his spells are subtle.
He gets one less metamagic.
The cost of his metamagics is increased by 1 more than they'd normally cost.
Half of his levels (rounded up) have to be in Sorcerer.



That's how I'd do it. Impossible to counter, but fairly expensive and limited.

I really like this suggestion, uses existing rules with only slight modifications.

[intregus]

My table we have sorcerers use the spell point variant and we add the sorcery points into the total spell points they would have at any given level.

They also don't need components or a focus for casting sorcerer spells through 5th level.

So far nothing is broken.

I do not play with any power gamers though.

[Rawrawrawr]

You could just handwave the whole thing - "Yes, you're casting mutely, but for some reason you still can't cast while silenced. Don't overthink it."
Or, in my experience, somatic components come into play more often than verbal ones, so you could just let him cast mutely, but leave somatic intact and just make them more... psychic-y? Like, pressing his fingers against his temples, or assuming a lotus position, or holding a hand out while getting a bloody nose.

You could also replace them with some other drawback - for psychic casting in Pathfinder, they use emotional components, where you can't be under certain mental effects - so to make a 5e equivalent, for example, you could say to cast a spell with a "verbal" component, he can't be charmed, and to cast a spell with a "somatic" component, he can't be frightened.

[MoiMagnus]

How much power is behind being able to do it perpetually for all components?

A lot. Or almost none. It depends a lot on your DMing playstyle, and on if the player is the kind to "find clever way to use features" or "just want the feature to looks good, but doesn't really care about the mechanical effect behind".

For example, will this player complain if his spell is counter-spelled by the enemy?
If yes, you're essentially giving him immunity from counter-spell, which is quite huge at high level.

Does this implies that the caster doesn't need any hand to cast the spell? If yes, that kind be a significant boost of power, though far from OP.

Oh, and you probably don't want to allow expensive components to not be paid, so make an exception for that.

Then sure, silent casting is very efficient in infiltrations, but since as a DM, you have full control on how much the enemy are paranoiac, I doubt this will come as a balance problem. That can even be a good thing if it allows for the full party to go into the infiltration rather than just one or two persons.

[Nagog]

I have a homebrew class that may be able to help out with this.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?593040-Homebrew-Class-Thaumaturge

Keep in mind that it's a homebrew that could still use some playtesting and polishing, but it may help hammer down some details. Let me know what you think if you end up using some of it!

[LordEntrails]

Sounds like your player wants to have all the benefits with no draw backs. Because your not just talking about removing components. You are also talking about removing somantic and verbal requirements. That is at least 3 feats in previous editions. And could be very powerful in 5E.

First, I would require a spell casting focus. Second, for spells that have component costs (or specific items), those are still required.

Then you have to worry about the benefits of casting despite Silence and Grappled/Restrained. That, depending upon the situation and campaign, can be very powerful.

I would try to get them to modify their desires. And if they don't, then go ahead and do something like a wizard, but their known spells, spell casting level, and slots would be equal to half their level. i.e. they gain magic very slowly.

If they don't want that, have them give you ideas. And they have to have draw backs for all the benefits they have.

Now, if I had a caster that wanted to play a mute, I would simple require a spell casting focus and state that every spell requires hand/arm movements (somatic). In that case they are just making a slight modification and will have little impact. But, a person who wants to play someone who can cast a fireball while sitting motionless and undetected in the King's Hall? Yea, that's a problem.