Magic Initiate and Eldritch Blast

[paladinn]

Thinking out loud.. Magic Initiate doesn't require someone to be a caster (like Spell Sniper does). And Eldritch Blast is a Warlock cantrip, running off Charisma; but there's nothing in the rules that says the user has to be a Warlock. And it doesn't depend on Charisma, only on character level: one beam at 1st level, 2 at 5th, 3 at 11th, 4 at 17th. Each beam causes 1d10 force damage, the least-resisted damage type, even without the Warlock Agonizing Blast invocation.

This seems really good; at least as long as a DM allows feats. Sooo.. has anyone noticed a lot of characters who have nothing to do with magic running around e-blasting? Face it, in a pinch, it's not a bad go-to.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Thinking out loud.. Magic Initiate doesn't require someone to be a caster (like Spell Sniper does). And Eldritch Blast is a Warlock cantrip, running off Charisma; but there's nothing in the rules that says the user has to be a Warlock. And it doesn't depend on Charisma, only on character level: one beam at 1st level, 2 at 5th, 3 at 11th, 4 at 17th. Each beam causes 1d10 force damage, the least-resisted damage type, even without the Warlock Agonizing Blast invocation.

This seems really good; at least as long as a DM allows feats. Sooo.. has anyone noticed a lot of characters who have nothing to do with magic running around e-blasting? Face it, in a pinch, it's not a bad go-to.

It does key off of Charisma. To hit. And if you can't hit, you can't do damage. As a result, it's only useful for CHA-focused people anyway. And most classes that would want it either don't have enough ASIs to spare or already have better ways to get that damage. Or the ever-popular warlock 2 dip.

[Zetakya]

As PhoenixPhyre says, it has a CHA-based To Hit roll. So it's only useful really for CHA-based classes.

It's a prime choice for adding a bit of Ranged blasting power to the vHuman Bard with Magic Initiate, although for flavour I prefer Toll The Dead, because it makes the tolling sound of bells.

Mostly the other CHA classes already have their own blasting power that's enough to not need Eldritch Blast.

[Nhorianscum]

Thinking out loud.. Magic Initiate doesn't require someone to be a caster (like Spell Sniper does). And Eldritch Blast is a Warlock cantrip, running off Charisma; but there's nothing in the rules that says the user has to be a Warlock. And it doesn't depend on Charisma, only on character level: one beam at 1st level, 2 at 5th, 3 at 11th, 4 at 17th. Each beam causes 1d10 force damage, the least-resisted damage type, even without the Warlock Agonizing Blast invocation.

This seems really good; at least as long as a DM allows feats. Sooo.. has anyone noticed a lot of characters who have nothing to do with magic running around e-blasting? Face it, in a pinch, it's not a bad go-to.

At cl17 without a ablast we've got 22 damage/round off EB. 36 with hex.

By comparison any Mele with dueling chucking a pairing of knives deals 19 average on 2 throws. Javalins smack for 23 average on 2 throws. At much higher to-hit and this is available for "free" from cl1.

[paladinn]

At cl17 without a ablast we've got 22 damage/round off EB. 36 with hex.

By comparison any Mele with dueling chucking a pairing of knives deals 19 average on 2 throws. Javalins smack for 23 average on 2 throws. At much higher to-hit and this is available for "free" from cl1.

Assuming you Have throwing knives and/or javelins. And they don't regenerate after you throw them, so you gotta go get 'em. Possibly from the midst of your enemies. Yeah, EB isn't bad..

[Nhorianscum]

Assuming you Have throwing knives and/or javelins. And they don't regenerate after you throw them, so you gotta go get 'em. Possibly from the midst of your enemies. Yeah, EB isn't bad..

Darts are like 2 cp a pop and can be "quivered" (at most tables) so if this is popping up all the time it might matter eventually.

Otherwise I assume mele dudes want to mele and probably have higher than +5 str mod in tier 4.

Assuming magic innate is a thing we want wizard gives find familiar + toll the dead (26) and we're generally going to have better Wis than CHA on these dudes.

[XmonkTad]

Without agonizing blast EB is above average among damage cantrips. It is a good choice if you are CHA focused, but really only if you are (otherwise you can't hit). But that being said, there are often other better choices for a CHA focused character. For example a rogue going for a CHA focus will prefer grabbing Magic Stone so they can still use sneak attack. A CHA fighter would probably prefer the SCAG-trips because those augment melee ability. And so on.

[Pex]

It does key off of Charisma. To hit. And if you can't hit, you can't do damage. As a result, it's only useful for CHA-focused people anyway. And most classes that would want it either don't have enough ASIs to spare or already have better ways to get that damage. Or the ever-popular warlock 2 dip.

Or play Variant Human


As PhoenixPhyre says, it has a CHA-based To Hit roll. So it's only useful really for CHA-based classes.

It's a prime choice for adding a bit of Ranged blasting power to the vHuman Bard with Magic Initiate, although for flavour I prefer Toll The Dead, because it makes the tolling sound of bells.

Mostly the other CHA classes already have their own blasting power that's enough to not need Eldritch Blast.

Paladin doesn't, and Bard may want the raw damage over Vicious Mockery or at least do something when the opponent's saving throw is too good since Vicious Mockery is a good spell for invoking Disadvantage.

[LudicSavant]

Thinking out loud.. Magic Initiate doesn't require someone to be a caster (like Spell Sniper does). And Eldritch Blast is a Warlock cantrip, running off Charisma; but there's nothing in the rules that says the user has to be a Warlock. And it doesn't depend on Charisma, only on character level: one beam at 1st level, 2 at 5th, 3 at 11th, 4 at 17th. Each beam causes 1d10 force damage, the least-resisted damage type, even without the Warlock Agonizing Blast invocation.

This seems really good; at least as long as a DM allows feats. Sooo.. has anyone noticed a lot of characters who have nothing to do with magic running around e-blasting? Face it, in a pinch, it's not a bad go-to.

It's pretty mediocre unless you're maxing Charisma and have abilities that synergize with it.

[DarkKnightJin]

Or play Variant Human



Paladin doesn't, and Bard may want the raw damage over Vicious Mockery or at least do something when the opponent's saving throw is too good since Vicious Mockery is a good spell for invoking Disadvantage.

I grabbed Chill Touch with my Paladin, using the 'free' feat we got at 4th level. Mostly because I don't think EB would fit with the character too well. And I don't want to be a power gamer, either.
I haven't used it too much, because Paladin will always be more of a close-range brawler than a long-range blaster.

[Dork_Forge]

It's an okay cantrip, but what made Eldritch blast so powerful was the wide number of Warlock invocations (and Hex) that added damage and secondary effects. If you're picking up a cantrip from MI I'd personally rather go for something else from the Sorcerer list.

[nickl_2000]

If you are a melee class (like a Paladin) it's a solid choice. You can get a utility cantrip, a good damage cantrip, and hex to apply to all hits. It's a solid choice. That being said, you get the same thing and a lot more from a single level dip into warlock.

[Chronos]

A bard at my table took it just so he'd always be guaranteed to have something non-useless to do in combat. But I think he only ever ended up using it twice.

I don't know what other cantrip and spell he got with it.

[paladinn]

If you are a melee class (like a Paladin) it's a solid choice. You can get a utility cantrip, a good damage cantrip, and hex to apply to all hits. It's a solid choice. That being said, you get the same thing and a lot more from a single level dip into warlock.

With all the outcry against multiclassing, MI and EB are a good option for a non-full-caster to get a ranged option. Especially for a paladin with high CHA. Ranged is one of a paladin's few shortcomings.

I agree with dipping warlock. I have a sorlocadin character. One hexblade level got me CHA-SAD, EB and Hex; two powered up the EB a lot.

I had forgotten the part about having to use CHA to hit; so yeah, probably not optimal for someone not charismatic.

[Willie the Duck]

With all the outcry against multiclassing, MI and EB are a good option for a non-full-caster to get a ranged option. Especially for a paladin with high CHA. Ranged is one of a paladin's few shortcomings.

Okay. Yes, in a game with feats, but without Multiclassing (either hard ban or just agreement not to do any of the egregious ones like much of the cha-based MCs), this setup is indeed good for non-valor/sword bards (who otherwise have poorly scaling at-will abilities) or str-based paladins (who otherwise have real problems with ranged combat after a certain point). That's playing at a different power scale and this shoring up of weaknesses is a definite benefit.


I had forgotten the part about having to use CHA to hit; so yeah, probably not optimal for someone not charismatic.
That seemed clear.

[Nagog]

i enjoy the EB and Hex combo as a nice flavor to add to any build, but ya if the Cha isn't there to help, you could pick up Fire bolt if your Int is higher, or Toll the Dead if you have higher Wis (Clerics don't seem to have a roll to hit damage spell unfortunately, however the 1d12 on a damaged enemy is a nice tradeoff)

[Zetakya]

i enjoy the EB and Hex combo as a nice flavor to add to any build, but ya if the Cha isn't there to help, you could pick up Fire bolt if your Int is higher, or Toll the Dead if you have higher Wis (Clerics don't seem to have a roll to hit damage spell unfortunately, however the 1d12 on a damaged enemy is a nice tradeoff)

They don't, but if you are a Cleric and you want one, taking Magic Initiate for the combination of Thorn Whip and Shillelagh is always valid.

[8wGremlin]

They don't, but if you are a Cleric and you want one, taking Magic Initiate for the combination of Thorn Whip and Shillelagh is always valid.

Also look at the ranges of some of those spells. EB, Firebolt, Chill touch etc are long range 120'
Toll the Dead is 60'
and Thornwhip is 30' melee spell attack

[Zetakya]

It's a 30' MSA that pulls things into range for using Shillelagh on, though.

The alternative is Magic Stone.

[paladinn]

Too bad Firebolt is so easily resisted.

I think that sorcerers at least should get access to EB. But then there's no real reason to go warlock.

[Zetakya]

Too bad Firebolt is so easily resisted.

I think that sorcerers at least should get access to EB. But then there's no real reason to go warlock.

Apart from the five (I think) Eldritch Invocations that power Eldritch Blast up.

[Moltenbrisingr]

Thinking out loud.. Magic Initiate doesn't require someone to be a caster (like Spell Sniper does). And Eldritch Blast is a Warlock cantrip, running off Charisma; but there's nothing in the rules that says the user has to be a Warlock. And it doesn't depend on Charisma, only on character level: one beam at 1st level, 2 at 5th, 3 at 11th, 4 at 17th. Each beam causes 1d10 force damage, the least-resisted damage type, even without the Warlock Agonizing Blast invocation.

This seems really good; at least as long as a DM allows feats. Sooo.. has anyone noticed a lot of characters who have nothing to do with magic running around e-blasting? Face it, in a pinch, it's not a bad go-to.

I play a ranged mastermind rogue who secretly has eldrich blast through this feat and has surprised his foes with it while unarmed. Tons of fun.

[paladinn]

I play a ranged mastermind rogue who secretly has eldrich blast through this feat and has surprised his foes with it while unarmed. Tons of fun.

Did your rogue have a ton of CHA?

[Dalebert]

Throwing is pretty limited without the two weapon fighting feat since you can only draw once as a free action. You can throw twice in the first round if you already have a thrown weapon out but only once per round thereafter. EKs have a work-around. If they're bonded to a thrown weapon, they can keep throwing twice using their bonus action to summon it back and using their free action to draw another thrown weapon.

Considering that, it's not horrible for a paladin who can't close. It's better than firebolt in two ways:
1) can spread the dmg over multiple targets if they drop.
2) FAR less resistable than fire.

But most casters shouldn't waste a feat to get it. They should just learn a couple different cantrips to get variety of dmg types and prepare leveled spells to cover the gaps. It's the warlock invocations that make it awesome.

[Maelynn]

Too bad Firebolt is so easily resisted.

Uh, what? There's no saving throw for Firebolt, it just requires a ranged spell attack. And how high that is, depends on your own attack bonus (depending on your spellcasting ability modifier) as well as your own attack roll.

Personally I also like Acid Splash. Not only can it apply to 2 targets, it also requires a Dex saving throw which isn't really common at lower levels - not until CR 10 anyway.

[Chronos]

He said that Firebolt is easily resisted, not that it's easily saved against. As in, lots of creatures have resistance (or even immunity) to fire damage.

And while the feat might be useful to paladins, they're already the most feat-starved class in the game, between having good reason to max two different stats, and also wanting all the same combat feats that a fighter would.

[LudicSavant]

Uh, what? There's no saving throw for Firebolt, it just requires a ranged spell attack.

He said it was easily resisted, not saved against.

Fire Resistance is one of the most common types of Resistance/Immunity.

[Maelynn]

He said it was easily resisted, not saved against.

Fire Resistance is one of the most common types of Resistance/Immunity.

Ah, I had completely disregarded resistance/immunity to specific types. I must look into that before settling on my cantrips...

[LudicSavant]

Ah, I had completely disregarded resistance/immunity to specific types. I must look into that before settling on my cantrips...

Rough rule of thumb for damage types (based on Monster Manual):

Better
A: Force, Radiant, Psychic
B: Necrotic, Thunder, Acid
C: Lightning, Cold, Fire
D: Poison
Worse

[Moltenbrisingr]

Did your rogue have a ton of CHA?

Quite a bit, but it was really meant as a surprise tactic for when people thought they had the drop on me. It's just funny when the guy with no magic blows up the guy trying to ambush him with magical death beams.

[Nagog]

Consider this:
Magic Initiate: Artificer.
Cantrips: Spare the Dying, Fire Bolt
1st Level Spell: Arcane Weapon

This combo allows you to be the healer in a pinch, as well as giving a ranged attack and a weapon buff that you can switch the damage type as a bonus action to better target weaknesses.

[ad_hoc]

Thinking out loud.. Magic Initiate doesn't require someone to be a caster (like Spell Sniper does). And Eldritch Blast is a Warlock cantrip, running off Charisma; but there's nothing in the rules that says the user has to be a Warlock. And it doesn't depend on Charisma, only on character level: one beam at 1st level, 2 at 5th, 3 at 11th, 4 at 17th. Each beam causes 1d10 force damage, the least-resisted damage type, even without the Warlock Agonizing Blast invocation.

This seems really good; at least as long as a DM allows feats. Sooo.. has anyone noticed a lot of characters who have nothing to do with magic running around e-blasting? Face it, in a pinch, it's not a bad go-to.

Eldritch Blast is just a cantrip. It's in the top tier of attack cantrips but there are a few other ones there as well. It's really not noticeably better than Firebolt. The only difference is that sometimes you need to use something else other than Firebolt against some creatures. If you have no options other than a single cantrip then something has gone horribly wrong for your character.

Cantrips are base level attacks, not something to aspire to and a waste of a feat in this example.

How many characters have no cantrips and also don't have extra attack?

[Nagog]

Eldritch Blast is just a cantrip. It's in the top tier of attack cantrips but there are a few other ones there as well. It's really not noticeably better than Firebolt. The only difference is that sometimes you need to use something else other than Firebolt against some creatures. If you have no options other than a single cantrip then something has gone horribly wrong for your character.

Cantrips are base level attacks, not something to aspire to and a waste of a feat in this example.

How many characters have no cantrips and also don't have extra attack?

Rogues, any martial class before ~level 5, half casters before level 5. That and the only ranged weapon that deals 1d10 damage is a heavy crossbow, which once you gain Extra Attack, will require the Crossbow Expert feat to fire twice without reloading. So... yeah this is a much better use of a feat considering you get 2 cantrips and a 1st level spell to use per day.

In most other versions, "Just a cantrip" is yeah super weak and borderline useless, but 5e has done well with making them usable and scale well with level. I mean look at the Warlock, they thrive off their cantrips, not including Eldritch Blast.

[Zetakya]

Eldritch Blast is just a cantrip. It's in the top tier of attack cantrips but there are a few other ones there as well. It's really not noticeably better than Firebolt. The only difference is that sometimes you need to use something else other than Firebolt against some creatures. If you have no options other than a single cantrip then something has gone horribly wrong for your character.

Cantrips are base level attacks, not something to aspire to and a waste of a feat in this example.

How many characters have no cantrips and also don't have extra attack?

As I already said upthread, in the specific case of backline caster-style Lore Bard, Cantrips like Eldritch Blast or Toll The Dead (or, if you prefer to go MI Sorcerer Fire Bolt and Ray Of Frost) are by a long margin the best available means of direct attack you can take.

That's not to say that they are essential picks, but if your objective to play a Bard in that manner then it's hard to see what else you could do to match those cantrip choices.

[ad_hoc]

Rogues, any martial class before ~level 5, half casters before level 5. That and the only ranged weapon that deals 1d10 damage is a heavy crossbow, which once you gain Extra Attack, will require the Crossbow Expert feat to fire twice without reloading. So... yeah this is a much better use of a feat considering you get 2 cantrips and a 1st level spell to use per day.

In most other versions, "Just a cantrip" is yeah super weak and borderline useless, but 5e has done well with making them usable and scale well with level. I mean look at the Warlock, they thrive off their cantrips, not including Eldritch Blast.

So you want to get Eldritch Blast for the character to use before level 5 even though it also just has 1 attack.

Except for the SCAG attack cantrips, they don't do a lot of damage because you don't add your ability modifier.

It doesn't matter that the heavy crossbow is the ranged weapon with d10 because they all come with additional damage. Cantrips don't though.

Cantrips aren't useless, they're just weak attacks that spellcasters have to fall back on. Warlock's power comes from their high level slots and invocations, not having a d10 cantrip.


As I already said upthread, in the specific case of backline caster-style Lore Bard, Cantrips like Eldritch Blast or Toll The Dead (or, if you prefer to go MI Sorcerer Fire Bolt and Ray Of Frost) are by a long margin the best available means of direct attack you can take.

That's not to say that they are essential picks, but if your objective to play a Bard in that manner then it's hard to see what else you could do to match those cantrip choices.

Nothing you're saying here contradicts what I said.

Unless you are posting to agree with me I don't understand why you quoted me.

If you want to use a cantrip, that's fine. EB is nothing special though as you point out. Lots of other choices, I prefer Toll the Dead as it can do more damage and doesn't come with disadvantage in melee.

You can also spend a feat on whatever you want as long as it is fun for you. That doesn't mean that Magic Initiate for EB is a powerful choice, the topic of thread.

[Dalebert]

Consider this:
Magic Initiate: Artificer.
Cantrips: Spare the Dying, Fire Bolt
1st Level Spell: Arcane Weapon


You would waste a precious feat spot on spare the dying? Buy a healer's kit with 10 uses for 5 gp. Buy multiples.The only point I can see with StD over a kit is that theoretically a DM might make you have both hands free which would suck only if you use a shield, but I've never seen one do that.

I have a DM who merged StD with Mending and also added that the recipient regains 1 HP a minute later. (Still have to be at 0 hp) So I took it. I STILL have yet to actually use it.

[Warlush]

Apart from the five (I think) Eldritch Invocations that power Eldritch Blast up.

Yeah that's what's up. I love how much hate warlocks get. Makes me love to play them single class.

[ff7hero]

I'm honestly shocked that no one has pointed out EB's true niche over Firebolt and every other offensive cantrip. Every other offensive cantrip adds more eggs to the same basket, EB gives you more baskets as you level up. EB's multiple rays give it an advantage in reliability, and lessens the amount of damage "wasted" over-killing.
Force damage is nice, but if asked to chose between a Force clone of Firebolt and a Fire clone of Eldritch Blast, I'd take Eldritch Flames any day.

[Cikomyr]

One of my player is a Swashbuckler Rogue, so in need of Charisma anyway.

He picked it up as Magic Initiate, and I made a deal with him. He would get the equivalent of Agonizing Blast invocation, but in exchange his Eldritch Blast would come from a magical gun, and he would be dependant on it to use the cantrip.

It makes the ranged option more appealing, IMHO, and add a bit of circumstancial limitations

[Tanarii]

It's been a while since I was playing in AL (ie games with feats and multiclassing), but I mostly saw it on Sorcerers and a Bards that didn't want to delay their spell and other class feature progression. From that regard, it's far superior to doing a multiclass dip as a warlock. OTOH if you like the other level 1 warlock features (and with Hexblade released they're considerable) it's worth slowing down progression. Different players mileage will vary.

I did see it on a few Paladins that were built with equal Str/Cha, but that was rarer as I recall it, the prefered options being GWM/PAM-adins or SM-adins, both with maxed Str and ASIs needed for relevant feats. Otoh I never really played AL at high level. But I'd imagine that nowadays it's far more common to take the SCAG cantrips and capitalize on you primary ability score.

[Contrast]

One of my player is a Swashbuckler Rogue, so in need of Charisma anyway.

He picked it up as Magic Initiate, and I made a deal with him. He would get the equivalent of Agonizing Blast invocation, but in exchange his Eldritch Blast would come from a magical gun, and he would be dependant on it to use the cantrip.

It makes the ranged option more appealing, IMHO, and add a bit of circumstancial limitations

Amusingly making it come from a gun is actually a buff because its now technically an attack using a ranged weapon and can trigger sneak attack. :smallwink: I assume you did not rule it that way :smalltongue:

[Cikomyr]

Amusingly making it come from a gun is actually a buff because its now technically an attack using a ranged weapon and can trigger sneak attack. :smallwink: I assume you did not rule it that way :smalltongue:

It's a spell for all intent and purposes. The idea of having a gun was to make the swashbuckler cool and dashy.

And I don't get why a Rogue can't get sneak attacks from a spell, so I still allow it.

Sneak attack was broken when it was allowed to have multiple sneak attack per rounds, but it's no longer the case in 5e. So I don't understand why they had to nerf that part of the ability.

[DarkKnightJin]

It's a spell for all intent and purposes. The idea of having a gun was to make the swashbuckler cool and dashy.

And I don't get why a Rogue can't get sneak attacks from a spell, so I still allow it.

Sneak attack was broken when it was allowed to have multiple sneak attack per rounds, but it's no longer the case in 5e. So I don't understand why they had to nerf that part of the ability.

Hmm.. I might allow Sneak Attack on Ranged Spell Attacks, but only at half power. So, 1-5d6 Sneak Attack, depending on character level

[Tanarii]

I'm honestly shocked that no one has pointed out EB's true niche over Firebolt and every other offensive cantrip. Every other offensive cantrip adds more eggs to the same basket, EB gives you more baskets as you level up. EB's multiple rays give it an advantage in reliability, and lessens the amount of damage "wasted" over-killing.
Force damage is nice, but if asked to chose between a Force clone of Firebolt and a Fire clone of Eldritch Blast, I'd take Eldritch Flames any day.
That's also a negative to some players. EB is consistent, FB is swingy, they are different damage profiles. EB you're more likely to do average number of hits and misses each round at higher levels, as opposed to having gamblers odds of doing more damage on a single hit (but none on a miss). And many players are gamblers who like to take a chance.

But really whether you want to consider Firebolt vs Eldritch Blast with Magic Initiate is far more likely to hinge (first) on if Int or Cha is higher, (then if Cha) if the other cantrip + first level spell you want is on the Warlock or Sorcerer spell list. Not consistency vs swinginess.