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Half-blood
2007-10-09, 03:20 PM
It comes to my knowledge that the sword is obviously the most used weapon in D&D, and for good reason. whatever, although From my findings, the Axe is almost identical to to the sword, so...why pick the sword? I mean, the sword's cool and all, but the dice damage is raised 3x to the swords 2x, but the sword has a small 1/20th better chance of getting a crit compared to the ax? so giving this information The two main questions are

Whats better, a smaller chance to do MORE more damage? or a slightly larger chance to do just More damage?

and, assuming the axe wins out, why do people still pick the sword?

Ryshan Ynrith
2007-10-09, 03:25 PM
Actually, swords have double the chance of scoring a crit as axes. They have the highest rates of average damage until bonus damage rises somewhere past the mid-30s...not sure exactly, someone else will probably show the math.

As for stylistic preferences, swords are usually viewed as more graceful and civilized than axes. There are all manner of common tales about swordmasters, but few about axemasters-the sword's one purpose is to kill.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-10-09, 03:26 PM
Greatsword: 2d6, 6.5 average. Also more consistency. Greataxe: 1d12, 6 average damage, more random distribution.

Here's the thing: 19-20 x2 and 20 x3 are identical, extra-damage-wise. 19-20 x2 adds +100% damage on a 19 and +100% on a 20. 20 x3 adds +200% on a 20. So you're twice as likely to add 100% as 200%; 2x 100% = 200%. Crit-range-wise, the two weapons are identical; the sword wins out because the sword does a tiny bit more damage on average (half a point), because its damage (both crit and regular) is more *consistent*--you're more likely to get a 6 or 7 than a 1 or 12 with a greatsword, you're equally likely to get any number with a greataxe--and because, well, swords are just plain cooler.

If you're talking about longswords and battleaxes, they do the same average damage with the same distribution, but the longsword's critical hits add damage more consistently (and the same amount of damage on average). And longswords are cooler.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-09, 03:27 PM
Longsword vs. Battleaxe, or Greatsword vs. Greataxe?

Either way, really, the sword has an edge in general. High variance is not beneficial for PCs. So long as the full threat range of your weapon hits, an n-number threat 2x critical has the same expected effect as a natural 20 (n+1)x critical.

If you use enough critical-enhancing stuff, this might turn around. a 15-20 critical range may not be as useful as it looks.

Tor the Fallen
2007-10-09, 03:30 PM
Greataxes, when you can reliably be big, are better, as they go 1d12 to 3d6 with an enlarge person.

Half-blood
2007-10-09, 03:31 PM
Longsword vs. Battleaxe, or Greatsword vs. Greataxe?

Either way, really, the sword has an edge in general. High variance is not beneficial for PCs. So long as the full threat range of your weapon hits, an n-number threat 2x critical has the same expected effect as a natural 20 (n+1)x critical.

If you use enough critical-enhancing stuff, this might turn around. a 15-20 critical range may not be as useful as it looks.

No, you see. Improved crit, keen, and the spell keen edge don't all work together.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-10-09, 03:31 PM
Greataxes, when you can reliably be big, are better, as they go 1d12 to 3d6 with an enlarge person.

...and greatswords go from 2d6 to 3d6, and keep their more consistent critical hits.

PlatinumJester
2007-10-09, 03:35 PM
Swords are generally cooler. Axes always seem to be sub par compared to them but that is probably because of my love of Samurai.

Person_Man
2007-10-09, 03:35 PM
They're both poor choices unless you're non-proficient in martial weapons.

The best weapon to use is a lance two handed from horseback. With 0 feat investment and a few ranks in Ride, you now have double damage on every charge. If you can't use a lance because you ride a Large mount and want to go indoors, use a guisarme. Either weapon will give you reach, adding some degree of battlefield control to your build, which will almost always give you extra attacks every combat. And extra attacks are a lot more important then a 1-2 points of average damage per hit.

Jasdoif
2007-10-09, 03:36 PM
Greatsword: 2d6, 6.5 average. Also more consistency. Greataxe: 1d12, 6 average damage, more random distribution.Very close....A greatsword's average damage is 7 (3.5*2), while a greataxe's is 6.5 (6.5*1).

Yeril
2007-10-09, 03:37 PM
Strictly speaking a Longsword has the slight advantage.

Sure 19 X2 and X3 are equal statisticly

but with X3 and mainly x4 you experience overkill. Whats the point hitting 40 damage against some Mook with 15 hitpoints when you could hit 20 damage, killing them all the same but twice as often.

however you could argue that that lucky x4 against the BBEG could save a few characters lives that a X2 couldn't.

For preference I prefer neither, if Im playing a Barbarian I'd use a axe to be Cliche, if Im playing a fighter (unles hes a dwarf) I'd use a sword.

Ulzgoroth
2007-10-09, 03:41 PM
No, you see. Improved crit, keen, and the spell keen edge don't all work together.
Indeed. Well, even if there isn't any way to get tripled crit range, the point applies to the scythe-falchion comparison.

Yeril
2007-10-09, 03:42 PM
[QUOTE=Person_Man;3319897]
The best weapon to use is a lance two handed from horseback. With 0 feat investment and a few ranks in Ride, you now have double damage on every charge.[QUOTE]

QFT

Lance-ness is realy great, I had a mounted Orc Power attacker with shock trooper, one ride by each round for +23 to hit and 3d8+74 damage, all at level 10. Only problem was I was knocked down to 9AC during this, but luckly if Anything is lucky enough to survive then they deserve the easy attacks against me.

psychoticbarber
2007-10-09, 03:43 PM
For me it all comes down to a familiarity and a completely subjective love of swords.

I used to fence, so I have a somewhat vague idea of how swords are employed in battle (obviously keeping in mind how fencing is not at all like the real thing), but I have a much less knowledge about how I might go about using an axe in combat.

Dullyanna
2007-10-09, 04:20 PM
I'm partial to polearms or flails IRL. Actually, I'm still partial to polearms in DnD as well. I like stabbing things with a little less danger to myself. But swords>axes for me, since the former's a bit more finessable.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-10-09, 04:26 PM
Swords. With keen, you now hit on a 17-20 rather then the axe's 19-20.

Hurlbut
2007-10-09, 04:30 PM
I like that in Iron Heroes, with Axe Mastery, it really cleave through your opponents' armors. armor.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-09, 05:21 PM
so...why pick the sword?

The sword is *mathematically proven* to deal better damage when compared to the axe (there actually is a very detailed comparison somewhere, but I can't seem to find it at the moment. The greatsword won by a hefty margin, though). There actually *is not a weapon in the game better than the greatsword* barring special properties like maneuvers, class features, and reach (Spiked Chain is a good example. So is the mounted lancer). And, while axes can provide a bigger burst of damage on occasion, reliable damage is generally better than unreliable damage, and a critical can often be deadly at a mere x2 in capable hands (x4 is often overkill. Remember folks, if an enemy has 100hp, it doesn't matter whether you would have done 110 damage or 11,000 damage or no damage at all but just a save or die... the end result is still that you killed the enemy. The excess damage is utterly superfluous and useless).

Also, the sword is more familiar and iconic to pretty much everyone.

So, combining: Swords are more powerful + swords are more familiar and iconic = swords are used more than axes.

Fax Celestis
2007-10-09, 05:40 PM
Greatsword: 2d6, 6.5 average. Also more consistency. Greataxe: 1d12, 6 average damage, more random distribution.

Here's the thing: 19-20 x2 and 20 x3 are identical, extra-damage-wise. 19-20 x2 adds +100% damage on a 19 and +100% on a 20. 20 x3 adds +200% on a 20. So you're twice as likely to add 100% as 200%; 2x 100% = 200%. Crit-range-wise, the two weapons are identical; the sword wins out because the sword does a tiny bit more damage on average (half a point), because its damage (both crit and regular) is more *consistent*--you're more likely to get a 6 or 7 than a 1 or 12 with a greatsword, you're equally likely to get any number with a greataxe--and because, well, swords are just plain cooler.

If you're talking about longswords and battleaxes, they do the same average damage with the same distribution, but the longsword's critical hits add damage more consistently (and the same amount of damage on average). And longswords are cooler.

Exactly. But a nitpick on my part: a greatsword deals 2-12 damage, not 1-12. Due to the way dice work, a greatsword not only deals an average of greater damage, but does slightly more even on its weakest possible strike.

Furthermore, bell curves are always preferable to linear. Why? Probability likes floating near the average, so a greatsword has a decent chance of never hitting minimum damage (that is, a 1/36 chance). The greataxe on the other hand has a 1/12 chance of hitting minimum damage--and just about any other face.

A comparison:

Greatsword:
{table=head]Result | Ways to roll result | Chance of result
2 | 1 | 1/36 (2.7%)
3 | 2 | 1/18 (5.5%)
4 | 3 | 1/12 (8.3%)
5 | 4 | 1/9 (11.1%)
6 | 5 | 1/7.2 (13.8%)
7 | 6 | 1/6 (16.6%)
8 | 5 | 1/7.2 (13.8%)
9 | 4 | 1/9 (11.1%)
10 | 3 | 1/12 (8.3%)
11 | 2 |1/18 (5.5%)
12 | 1 | 1/36 (2.7%)[/table]

Greataxe
{table=head]Result | Ways to roll result | Chance of result
1 | 1 | 1/12 (8.3%)
2 | 1 | 1/12 (8.3%)
3 | 1 | 1/12 (8.3%)
4 | 1 | 1/12 (8.3%)
5 | 1 | 1/12 (8.3%)
6 | 1 | 1/12 (8.3%)
7 | 1 | 1/12 (8.3%)
8 | 1 | 1/12 (8.3%)
9 | 1 | 1/12 (8.3%)
10 | 1 | 1/12 (8.3%)
11 | 1 | 1/12 (8.3%)
12 | 1 | 1/12 (8.3%)[/table]

The_Werebear
2007-10-09, 05:41 PM
Personally, I favor the greataxe (Once you get past level 2-3). I am willing to gamble on that big 12 to save me. It's a lot more likely on the d12 than 2d6. Also, the DMs I have tend to be boss fight heavy, so overkill isn't so much of a problem.

DraPrime
2007-10-09, 05:51 PM
It's all a matter of preference. The main question is "Do you want more but weaker criticals, or do you want less but more powerful criticals?" I prefer the greataxe, simply because there's something extremely rewarding about a x3 crit.

Chronos
2007-10-09, 06:14 PM
Mechanically, the more consistent sword is better for the players than the more variable axe. But they're close enough that it's easy to justify using either, if that's the flavor you prefer.

Oh, and another advantage of swords is that they're lighter than the equivalent axes. This might not matter much for a barbarian with 22 strength, but if you're down around 14-16, or you need to carry around a half-dozen of them for penetrating various damage reductions, it might make some difference.

Shinkoro
2007-10-09, 06:36 PM
If your DM runs any store bought adventures, I would go long sword. Every WTC adventure has about 5 magical ones in it.

Fax Celestis
2007-10-09, 06:37 PM
If your DM runs any store bought adventures, I would go long sword. Every WTC adventure has about 5 magical ones in it.

That's an interesting point. WotC as a company seems to favor the long sword, dagger, scimitar, and spear over a variety of other weapons.

BanjoTheClown
2007-10-09, 06:40 PM
Sword beats Axe.

Shinkoro
2007-10-09, 06:42 PM
Also, if your DM randoms magical loot, long swords have the best chance of coming up vs. any other weapon.

StickMan
2007-10-09, 07:42 PM
Bow and Buckler. You'll be dead by the time you get near me, I love Rapid shot.

Roderick_BR
2007-10-10, 04:47 AM
At lower levels, I prefer the sword, because you need to crit more.
At higher levels, when you get magic bonuses, and more important, high strength scores, I wouldn't have problems switching to an axe, since all the static bonuses are multiplied.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-10, 04:59 AM
Longsword and Battleaxe are statistically identical. They do the exact same damage, as 19-20/x2 and 20/x3 have the same true average damage. The only thing longsword has as an advantage is a better benefit from being keen (which might not actually exist, but I have only seen the math for the non-improved threat ranges, and lack the skill at math to eyeball the change from doubling the threat range).

Orzel
2007-10-10, 05:46 AM
Greataxes are better if you deals lots of bonus damage (STR, Power attack) or extra attacks and thw weapon matters less. You chance of a 10-12 can knock off an extra HD of health or two.

Greatswords are better when you don't (since you'll be rolling 5-9 all the time).

Weapon consistency only matters if you need it. Otherwise go for the gamble. That's my way.

Last_resort_33
2007-10-10, 06:16 AM
Not mechanically considered, so it doesn't really matter, but IRL, the axe would do more damage, but it is a bugger to hit with... Axes really come into their own when your enemy has a shield.

unfortunately, a weapon's maneuverability isn't taken into account in D&D, if it did then the axe would be right down there with the heavy flails.

Also, it is of course harder to block (something else the mechanics don't take into account) with an axe, partly owing to it's weight and partly the fact that it has a wooden handle with no guard.

Kioran
2007-10-10, 06:22 AM
If any player of mine ever even thinks of using his Sword to bash down a door or smash stuff, itīs going to dulll or take damage, resulting in -AB or -Damage.
t just makes sense. The sword is the superior weapon, but it makes a poor tool.

Leon
2007-10-10, 08:10 AM
Go the best of both and use High Sword Low Axe Style

JWhitehead
2007-10-10, 09:39 AM
If everyone feels the sword beats the axe, does every other player here take the obvious next step and drop down to falchions and scimitars. Sure you are dropping 2 and 1 point of damage per average respectively but the extra threat range is worth it I think.

Am i alone in preferring 18-20x2?

Oh and deathstrike gauntlets from the magic item compendium are almost a must for any crit aiming falchion user I build. That or being something like a lurk or a deadgrim :smallbiggrin:

Artemician
2007-10-10, 10:20 AM
If everyone feels the sword beats the axe, does every other player here take the obvious next step and drop down to falchions and scimitars. Sure you are dropping 2 and 1 point of damage per average respectively but the extra threat range is worth it I think.

Am i alone in preferring 18-20x2?

Oh and deathstrike gauntlets from the magic item compendium are almost a must for any crit aiming falchion user I build. That or being something like a lurk or a deadgrim :smallbiggrin:

Some people crunched numbers, and apparently, in most situations, a Greatsword is simply the best weapon. Don't ask me to quote figures, that's just what I heard.

I like Falchions too, yea.

trainer343
2007-10-10, 10:56 AM
Well, I for one perfer the axe to the sword. I really believe that there is no such thing as overkill, just kill. If I kill my opponet, is there really a difference between them just droping and getting cleaved in half?....Other than it's more fun to cleave them in half.

I say if you have a high STR you don't really need a high crit chance, so go with a high damage weapon like a great axe. If you have low STR, you might want something more "reliable".

Sure you can spend time working out the math, but at the the end of the day most people will probally just go with what they like.

skywalker
2007-10-10, 01:32 PM
If everyone feels the sword beats the axe, does every other player here take the obvious next step and drop down to falchions and scimitars. Sure you are dropping 2 and 1 point of damage per average respectively but the extra threat range is worth it I think.

Am i alone in preferring 18-20x2?

Oh and deathstrike gauntlets from the magic item compendium are almost a must for any crit aiming falchion user I build. That or being something like a lurk or a deadgrim :smallbiggrin:

At level 1, with a +3 STR bonus, you get about a point and a half more damage on average with the greatsword. At level 10, with the same strength bonus, you get 2 points more damage on average. The amount isn't that much better but it is better. Also, as Fax brought up earlier, you have a one in four chance on a d4 of rolling a one. You have a one in six chance on a d6.

PlatinumJester
2007-10-10, 01:39 PM
Lets just all use heavy flails.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-10, 01:54 PM
Longsword and Battleaxe are statistically identical. No. Statistically, the greatsword does more damage. 2d6 (average 7) > 1d12 (average 6.5).

Dausuul
2007-10-10, 02:01 PM
No. Statistically, the greatsword does more damage. 2d6 (average 7) > 1d12 (average 6.5).

He was comparing longsword to battleaxe.

Chronos
2007-10-10, 03:09 PM
Well, I for one perfer the axe to the sword. I really believe that there is no such thing as overkill, just kill. If I kill my opponet, is there really a difference between them just droping and getting cleaved in half?....Other than it's more fun to cleave them in half.Oh, sure, it's not the overkill itself that's the problem. It's what you're giving up to get the overkill.

Consider (for simplicity) a player with no strength or other bonus damage, versus a target with (say) 13 HP. A single hit from either a greatsword or a greataxe won't kill the target, but it'll wound him. A critical hit from either, however, probably will kill him. The greataxe will totally pulverize him on a crit, while the greatsword will just get him down to negatives, but they'll both kill on a crit. The greatsword, though, is getting that crit more often. This will also be true for most other values of target HP and bonus damage; I'm just skipping the math for those, for simplicity.

Now, granted, there are situations where your only chance of survival is to roll 30 damage on the next hit. In those situations, the greataxe is clearly superior, since it at least gives you a long shot chance, compared to no chance at all from the sword. But you should really be doing your best to not get into those sorts of situations in the first place, since players who depend on longshots to survive tend to end up not surviving.

trainer343
2007-10-10, 05:22 PM
Consider (for simplicity) a player with no strength or other bonus damage, versus a target with (say) 13 HP. A single hit from either a greatsword or a greataxe won't kill the target, but it'll wound him. A critical hit from either, however, probably will kill him. The greataxe will totally pulverize him on a crit, while the greatsword will just get him down to negatives, but they'll both kill on a crit. The greatsword, though, is getting that crit more often. This will also be true for most other values of target HP and bonus damage; I'm just skipping the math for those, for simplicity.

"I say if you have a high STR you don't really need a high crit chance, so go with a high damage weapon like a great axe. If you have low STR, you might want something more "reliable"."


Now, granted, there are situations where your only chance of survival is to roll 30 damage on the next hit. In those situations, the greataxe is clearly superior, since it at least gives you a long shot chance, compared to no chance at all from the sword. But you should really be doing your best to not get into those sorts of situations in the first place, since players who depend on longshots to survive tend to end up not surviving.

You make a good point, but longshots have a way of sneaking up on you. Especally if your DM is an evil, psycho freak like mine is.:smallamused:

The problem is, no matter what your crit range is, hitting it is still a matter of luck. Sure a greatsword is 19-20 and has 1 better min. damage, but you still have to hit the 19-20. In practise, I tend to crit about twice as often as the other people I play with, and my axe dosn't even have keen on it.

Middle Snu
2007-10-11, 02:00 AM
It should be noted that, as the sword is a statistically superior choice for most players, the axe is superior for monsters.

In the end, what it really comes down to is whether most of the fights you face are long shots or fairly easy.

Nebo_
2007-10-11, 02:23 AM
I would rather crit more often than crit with more damage. Aside from the fact that the more damaging crit will probably be overkill, there are heaps of effects that only work on a crit, so more often is usually better.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-11, 05:47 AM
Originally Posted by Skjaldbakka
Longsword and Battleaxe are statistically identical.No. Statistically, the greatsword does more damage. 2d6 (average 7) > 1d12 (average 6.5).

Hehe . . :smallbiggrin: