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ChaosStar
2019-07-18, 02:52 PM
Okay, my dad is thinking of changing his character, he hasn't played it yet so the character is still in flux, and was thinking of maybe Bard/Druid. He wants to take Arcane Hierophant, but not Green Whisperer. His build idea is Bard 7/Druid 3/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Hierophant 8. I'm arguing he go Bard 2/Druid 3/Green Whisperer 5/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Hierophant 8. He says he doesn't want Knowledge(Arcana) as a cross class skill for so many levels. He wants to be a Buffer and Skill Monkey for his roles in the party. Thoughts?
pabelfly
2019-07-18, 02:55 PM
If your Dad wants to run that character, why not let him do it?
Palanan
2019-07-18, 02:57 PM
On the other hand, your approach looks better than your dad's idea. I'm biased here because I love Green Whisperer.

Also, if the game is open to Pathfinder content, Shaping Focus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/shaping-focus/) would be a great choice here.
ChaosStar
2019-07-18, 03:16 PM
If your Dad wants to run that character, why not let him do it?
I would, I'm just providing advice.


On the other hand, your approach looks better than your dad's idea. I'm biased here because I love Green Whisperer.

Also, if the game is open to Pathfinder content, Shaping Focus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/shaping-focus/) would be a great choice here.

Arcane Hierophant only progresses Wild Shape, it doesn't give it. You need to be Druid 5 to get Wild Shape.

Edit: How about losing 1 level of Sublime Chord for 1 level of Beastmaster? +4 Druid levels to the Animal Companion in exchange for Song of Arcane Power.
Biggus
2019-07-18, 03:37 PM
He says he doesn't want Knowledge(Arcana) as a cross class skill for so many levels. He wants to be a Buffer and Skill Monkey for his roles in the party. Thoughts?

He can still keep his Knowledge (Arcana) maximised, he just has to spend two skill points per level to do it. That shouldn't be too much of a problem unless his intelligence is relatively low; if it is, the Nymph's Kiss feat (BoED) gives one extra skill point per level (and a +2 bonus to charisma-related checks, handy for a lot of Bard skills). You have to be good-aligned to take it though.



Arcane Hierophant only progresses Wild Shape, it doesn't give it. You need to be Druid 5 to get Wild Shape.

The first line of the AH's Wild Shape entry gives that impression, but the rest of it makes it clear that you don't actually have to have WS already, you just have to be a class which grants it:

"you add your arcane hierophant level to your druid level and gain the wild shape ability of a druid of the resulting level. For example, a character who is a 3rd-level wizard/3rd-level druid/4th-level arcane hierophant has the wild shape ability of a 7th-level druid".
MisterKaws
2019-07-18, 03:45 PM
He could also go Nature Savage Bard/Nature Divine Bard/Arcane Hierophant if you forget about the Wild shape. Bamboo Spirit Folk gives you Trackless Step and Nature Bard gives Animal Companion, so you get to advance that just fine.
Palanan
2019-07-18, 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by ChaosStar
Arcane Hierophant only progresses Wild Shape, it doesn't give it. You need to be Druid 5 to get Wild Shape.

Shaping Focus should handle that for you, assuming you can meet the Knowledge (nature) requirements.
Endarire
2019-07-18, 04:08 PM
Silverbrow Human with Able Learner feat helps solve skill point and cross-class problems.
MisterKaws
2019-07-18, 04:26 PM
Shaping Focus should handle that for you, assuming you can meet the Knowledge (nature) requirements.

That's PF-only. This is 3.5 I believe.
Palanan
2019-07-18, 04:29 PM
Which is why I noted it was Pathfinder, and only an option if Pathfinder content was allowed in this game.
MisterKaws
2019-07-18, 04:36 PM
Which is why I noted it was Pathfinder, and only an option if Pathfinder content was allowed in this game.

Oh yeah, you did above. Sorry. :P
Particle_Man
2019-07-18, 05:01 PM
Another option is Druid 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 2 more for 9th level spells in both classes (eventually). A grey elf gives a nice int boost and you could take the elf generalist subsitution level at 1st wizard for more spells in the wizard spell book and a floating wizard spell slot. Magic of the land also is a nice thematic feat.

It does give up on skills a bit (although the subsitution level gives access to search).
ChaosStar
2019-07-18, 05:17 PM
Silverbrow Human with Able Learner feat helps solve skill point and cross-class problems.


Another option is Druid 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 2 more for 9th level spells in both classes (eventually). A grey elf gives a nice int boost and you could take the elf generalist subsitution level at 1st wizard for more spells in the wizard spell book and a floating wizard spell slot. Magic of the land also is a nice thematic feat.

It does give up on skills a bit (although the subsitution level gives access to search).

He's adamant about Bard and being a Gnome.
Biggus
2019-07-18, 08:05 PM
A good compromise might be Bard 2/Druid 3/Green Whisperer 3/Arcane Hierophant 2/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Hierophant+8, that way he has only 6 levels without Arcana as a class skill instead of 8.
Crake
2019-07-18, 09:25 PM
He's adamant about Bard and being a Gnome.

Could get human heritage and a flaw? Say his dad's mum's dad's brother's wife twice removed was a human
ChaosStar
2019-07-18, 09:42 PM
A good compromise might be Bard 2/Druid 3/Green Whisperer 3/Arcane Hierophant 2/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Hierophant+8, that way he has only 6 levels without Arcana as a class skill instead of 8.

But then Arcane Hierophant wouldn't progress Sublime Chord.
Jay R
2019-07-18, 09:58 PM
What level is he starting at? It's more important to optimize that level than 20th level.
weckar
2019-07-19, 05:22 AM
What level is he starting at? It's more important to optimize that level than 20th level.
So much this. If the character decides on another path after 2 levels, all that prep is quite wasted.
Biggus
2019-07-19, 06:41 AM
But then Arcane Hierophant wouldn't progress Sublime Chord.

Yes it would, you still have 8 levels of AH after you take SC, and you don't have to add AH spellcasting to the same class at every level. From the spellcasting entry of AH:

"If you had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before becoming an arcane hierophant, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day, caster level, and spells known."
ChaosStar
2019-07-19, 09:31 AM
What level is he starting at? It's more important to optimize that level than 20th level.

We're at 4th level right now.
Palanan
2019-07-19, 10:40 AM
Given what you described of his build plan, is he straight Bard 4 right now?

Also, is Pathfinder material allowed? If so, assuming he's been banking away Knowledge(nature) ranks, he can take Druid 1 and Shaping Focus for his next feat, and he'll be flying the friendly skies.
ChaosStar
2019-07-19, 04:25 PM
Given what you described of his build plan, is he straight Bard 4 right now?

Also, is Pathfinder material allowed? If so, assuming he's been banking away Knowledge(nature) ranks, he can take Druid 1 and Shaping Focus for his next feat, and he'll be flying the friendly skies.

Yeah, but he hasn't played the character in the game yet so the build is still in flux.