Hey Guys and Gals, just need your help with the Warlock

[theRoyzen]

Well Guys and Gals, as the title said, I need al little help, cuz I'm unsure where I should go with my Warlock/Hexblade/Chain Pact.

Befor I go a little indeep with my thoughts, maybe you all need a little background information.
In our groupe, we have one paladin, one sorcerers, one cleric, one wizard, one druid, one fighter and me the warlock. Yes, we don't have any rogue.
We don't use the Sword Coast Adventure, yet. As I planned to go Warlock/Rogue, the little stealthy sprite or the pseudodragon for some poison would be very good.
At the moment I'm level 3 Warlock, would go to 4 for the ASI, and afterwards some level in rogue.
But as i don't know how good it would be only to dip it, or go deeper, I'll need your help. For the rogue classes I thought, Arcane Trikster, Master Mind or Swashbuckler.

Stats of the Char are:
Strength: 8
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 10
Wisdom: 12
Charisma: 17

Half-Elf.

I already found a magical weapon, its a Berserk Handaxe, if it's anywhre important.
I would be thankful for any tipp or anything that would help to decide what I should take and how deep, or if I should make rogue my main class.

Edit: Did make an error, my stats are as:
Strength: 8
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 13
Intelligence: 10
Wisdom: 12
Charisma: 17

[Tawmis]

Well Guys and Gals, as the title said, I need al little help, cuz I'm unsure where I should go with my Warlock/Hexblade/Chain Pact.

Befor I go a little indeep with my thoughts, maybe you all need a little background information.
In our groupe, we have one paladin, one sorcerers, one cleric, one wizard, one druid, one fighter and me the warlock. Yes, we don't have any rogue.
We don't use the Sword Coast Adventure, yet. As I planned to go Warlock/Rogue, the little stealthy sprite or the pseudodragon for some poison would be very good.
At the moment I'm level 3 Warlock, would go to 4 for the ASI, and afterwards some level in rogue.
But as i don't know how good it would be only to dip it, or go deeper, I'll need your help. For the rogue classes I thought, Arcane Trikster, Master Mind or Swashbuckler.

Stats of the Char are:
Strength: 8
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 10
Wisdom: 12
Charisma: 17

Half-Elf.

I already found a magical weapon, its a Berserk Handaxe, if it's anywhre important.
I would be thankful for any tipp or anything that would help to decide what I should take and how deep, or if I should make rogue my main class.

So the good thing is - you have a High CHR and a High DEX. So you will be able to pull off the Warlock and Rogue bit nicely.
Honestly, if you love being a Warlock, I'd say keep that your main focus. If you do dip into Warlock, I'd do 1 level (depending on how high you guys keep playing for). Because the Rogue is often sent ahead to scout for traps and the like, that's going to put your Warlock at the front of the line sometimes (if you guys are investigating a dungeon, or sneaked into the Evil Wizard's Castle). Not that it's too bad (unless you encounter monsters before your party gets to you, or trigger a harsh trap due to a failed check). Running into someone you can speak with (depending on your DM), you can use your CHR (Persuasion) skills to fast talk a guard who has found you, however.

[theRoyzen]

So the good thing is - you have a High CHR and a High DEX. So you will be able to pull off the Warlock and Rogue bit nicely.
Honestly, if you love being a Warlock, I'd say keep that your main focus. If you do dip into Warlock, I'd do 1 level (depending on how high you guys keep playing for). Because the Rogue is often sent ahead to scout for traps and the like, that's going to put your Warlock at the front of the line sometimes (if you guys are investigating a dungeon, or sneaked into the Evil Wizard's Castle). Not that it's too bad (unless you encounter monsters before your party gets to you, or trigger a harsh trap due to a failed check). Running into someone you can speak with (depending on your DM), you can use your CHR (Persuasion) skills to fast talk a guard who has found you, however.

Thanks for the fast anwser.
I original choose Warlock, cuz I wanted to be some how a magical user, but didn't like the nerdy wizards, cuz I'm not the one who likes to sit down and learn, and the sorcerer is a little, it is in my blood. Both didn't really speak to me. And I had an idea for a backstory for the Warlock, and it gave me personal more space to roleplay it better. But I would be okay to just stay at the 4 levels with warlock and go deep in Rogue, so it should be no problem. At the moment I have a 17 AC, so I could possible go alone to scout, I even have taken the spell pass without trace and could learn invisibility with level 4. And my sprite could go scouting too, what isn't that bad too. So I'm up to nearly everything.

[Dork_Forge]

Something to bear in mind is your hand axe won't be eligible for Sneak Attack. What invocations do you currently have and what is your play style like?

I'd say go to 4th Warlock then dip into Rogue, come back to Warlock for 3rd level slots and another invocation and switch back to rogue straight to Rogue 4/5.

Fiendish Vigor is a good invocation if you plan on scouting ahead (though your familiar can do that for you) as well voice if the chain master to stretch your range to the same plane instead of just 100 feet.

For subclass I'd go with Swashbuckler to maximise your charisma unless you want more spell slots, in which case go for AT.

[theRoyzen]

Something to bear in mind is your hand axe won't be eligible for Sneak Attack. What invocations do you currently have and what is your play style like?

I'd say go to 4th Warlock then dip into Rogue, come back to Warlock for 3rd level slots and another invocation and switch back to rogue straight to Rogue 4/5.

Fiendish Vigor is a good invocation if you plan on scouting ahead (though your familiar can do that for you) as well voice if the chain master to stretch your range to the same plane instead of just 100 feet.

For subclass I'd go with Swashbuckler to maximise your charisma unless you want more spell slots, in which case go for AT.

Sorry for the late answer, real life hit me hard.
About the axe I know, I'm looking for a magical scimitar or another magical fitness weapon.
Invocations I run are gift of the everliving ones and mask of many faces.
I would let my familiar scout most of the times. And my spell slots I mostly used for shield or if I'm surrounded by enemy's for arms of hardar or armor of agathys.
How deep should I go with swashbuckler?

[Vogie]

With a +0 Con, I'd try to stay out of harm's way. Even with Medium armor, you really can't take a hit before you get Uncanny Dodge, which you'd get at level 9. Use your invisible familiar to create advantage, and Sneak attack away with a hand crossbow - This is the only ranged one-handed weapon other than a blowgun and sling, but the Crossbow Expert feat's ability to add a bonus action attack makes it the best ranged option for a Hex Warrior Ranged weapon.

[Trickery]

What do you hope to get from rogue? I ask because a chain pact warlock makes a great scout on its own, and you might get more mileage from spells and invocations. For example, the invocation Eldritch Sight is the optimal way to detect magical traps, as well as detecting magic in general, and can be invaluable in many campaigns.

Warlock also gives you an interesting level 11 option you could do with your group. If you take the spell Eyebite and gain Invisibility from an ally, you can use the Eyebite options without breaking invisibility. This can allow you to cause chaos in a room before your team even walks in.

[Dork_Forge]

Sorry for the late answer, real life hit me hard.
About the axe I know, I'm looking for a magical scimitar or another magical fitness weapon.
Invocations I run are gift of the everliving ones and mask of many faces.
I would let my familiar scout most of the times. And my spell slots I mostly used for shield or if I'm surrounded by enemy's for arms of hardar or armor of agathys.
How deep should I go with swashbuckler?

No worries!

I'd say you've no real need to go further than 5 deep on Swash. That'd net you 3d6 Sneak (a significant amount of damage for free at any level really), uncanny dodge (since you don't really ahve the slots for Shield unless it's an emergancy) and let you add your cha to your initiative. With how low your HP is going to be (I strongly advise against rolling you hp), Fiendish Vigor can help compensate for tiers 1 and 2 (and remain usefule later game), but when you have an ASI free I advocate for Tough, you'll go from Squishy to Tanky in one level up. Are you using Cha or Dex as your attack mod?

[bid]

Well Guys and Gals, as the title said, I need al little help, cuz I'm unsure where I should go with my Warlock/Hexblade/Chain Pact.
Eldritch blast will do 2d10+6 by level 5, while you'd need rogue 7 to do as much with SA. And by that time EB does 3d10+12 or so.

So you're only doing rogue for the other features: expertise, cunning action and whatever archetype feature you pick.
- AT has more spell slots for utilities and mage hand legerdemain, no effect on BA.
- MM has ranged help (uses BA) and master of intrigue. If you planned on taking the actor feat, that looks nice.
- Swash has... an extra +3 to initiative and is out of the race IMHO.

[Dork_Forge]

Eldritch blast will do 2d10+6 by level 5, while you'd need rogue 7 to do as much with SA. And by that time EB does 3d10+12 or so.

So you're only doing rogue for the other features: expertise, cunning action and whatever archetype feature you pick.
- AT has more spell slots for utilities and mage hand legerdemain, no effect on BA.
- MM has ranged help (uses BA) and master of intrigue. If you planned on taking the actor feat, that looks nice.
- Swash has... an extra +3 to initiative and is out of the race IMHO.

Swash also give you an additional, passive, way to gain SA and gives you the benefit of Disengage against any creature you've made an attack against (no need to hit, like Mobile). Given all those features and that hit has zero impact on action economy it's hard to just put it out the running (and a good initiative is more valuable than some give it credit for).

[bid]

Swash also give you an additional, passive, way to gain SA
Why would you do that when EB does way more damage?

I would understand if someone went pact of blade or grabbed SCAG cantrips, and had a front-row Con14. But none of that is true here. Heck, even his berserker axe is not finesse.

As I said to OP: you're only doing rogue for the other features.

[Dork_Forge]

Why would you do that when EB does way more damage?

I would understand if someone went pact of blade or grabbed SCAG cantrips, and had a front-row Con14. But none of that is true here. Heck, even his berserker axe is not finesse.

As I said to OP: you're only doing rogue for the other features.

Damage that relies on hitting multiple times, having an invocation soley to make it a viable tactic (EB without AB is eh at best) and has all the other downsides of being a ranged spell attack (disadvantage within 5 feet, vulnerable to silence/counterspell etc. and not stealthy at all). The Con issue is easily patched over by Fiendish Vigor and the Tough feat (and hitting Rogue 5 gives Uncanny Dodge).

As for way more damage... not really, your comments seem to compare just EB (w/AB) against just SA and not include weapon damage and mod.

8th Overall (5War/3Swash) would give you (assuming a mundane Rapier) 1d8+4+2d6 for an average of 17 vs the average of 20 for EB. So +3 dmg on average for having to hit a target twice. Once you hit Rogue 5 that surpasses EB by 1 whilst you still have two whole levels before EB scales up again.

If you include either of the SCAG cantrips (which OP can learn at next level up) in this then from 5th onwards EB just doesn't do more damage and when the melee cantrip scaling is combined with SA scaling it doesn't catch back up unless you're tagging a target under both Hex and Hexblade's Curse at least twice (both of which are limited resources that tie up the BA and HBC can't even be moved to anotehr creature until tier 4).

But more specific to the OP, he seems to be involved in melee (magical weapon, presumably a shield from his AC and taking Hexblade), so sinking an invocation into AB and making EB their main go to seems like a a complete playstyle change. If any of that is wrong the apologies in advance!

[theRoyzen]

I didn't expect to get that many input from my last post till now, so thanks to all for your time and help. Very appreciated.

With a +0 Con, I'd try to stay out of harm's way. Even with Medium armor, you really can't take a hit before you get Uncanny Dodge, which you'd get at level 9. Use your invisible familiar to create advantage, and Sneak attack away with a hand crossbow - This is the only ranged one-handed weapon other than a blowgun and sling, but the Crossbow Expert feat's ability to add a bonus action attack makes it the best ranged option for a Hex Warrior Ranged weapon.
I'm not really a fan of Crossbow's, but it is an idea to consider.



What do you hope to get from rogue? I ask because a chain pact warlock makes a great scout on its own, and you might get more mileage from spells and invocations. For example, the invocation Eldritch Sight is the optimal way to detect magical traps, as well as detecting magic in general, and can be invaluable in many campaigns.

Warlock also gives you an interesting level 11 option you could do with your group. If you take the spell Eyebite and gain Invisibility from an ally, you can use the Eyebite options without breaking invisibility. This can allow you to cause chaos in a room before your team even walks in.
What I hope from rogue. Well we don't have anyone who can speak thieves cant or can unarm traps or is stealthy at all. I thought that would be a possible way to go and maybe safe my ass cuz the big problem is, my group is very .. special. Yesterday the group met without me, cuz I had to work, and it went as south as possible. Our Cleric and paladin are murder hobos, and my warlock has to be the person of thought and reason. The invisiblity with eyebight sounds awesome, to be honest. But i don't want to rely onto my group to much. They found a monster in the woods, which was in 15 feet of them. The monster did see them, but didn't attack. They asumed it is hostile and just went to attack it. They didn't have to roll for initiative. It was a lawfull good creature that could helped them out of the woods. Now they are lost.



Why would you do that when EB does way more damage?

I would understand if someone went pact of blade or grabbed SCAG cantrips, and had a front-row Con14. But none of that is true here. Heck, even his berserker axe is not finesse.

As I said to OP: you're only doing rogue for the other features.
I did make an slight error, sorry for that. My Con is 13, my Int is 10 (edited my first post). So yeah i would do it maybe for just the features, or even go deeper into it. But i don't know if I should. And as I heard, our group found a Scimitar of Life Stealing, which would work with SA right? And the DM gave me the idea or better said, I maybe should start thinking, if I want to become a rogue.



Damage that relies on hitting multiple times, having an invocation soley to make it a viable tactic (EB without AB is eh at best) and has all the other downsides of being a ranged spell attack (disadvantage within 5 feet, vulnerable to silence/counterspell etc. and not stealthy at all). The Con issue is easily patched over by Fiendish Vigor and the Tough feat (and hitting Rogue 5 gives Uncanny Dodge).

As for way more damage... not really, your comments seem to compare just EB (w/AB) against just SA and not include weapon damage and mod.

8th Overall (5War/3Swash) would give you (assuming a mundane Rapier) 1d8+4+2d6 for an average of 17 vs the average of 20 for EB. So +3 dmg on average for having to hit a target twice. Once you hit Rogue 5 that surpasses EB by 1 whilst you still have two whole levels before EB scales up again.

If you include either of the SCAG cantrips (which OP can learn at next level up) in this then from 5th onwards EB just doesn't do more damage and when the melee cantrip scaling is combined with SA scaling it doesn't catch back up unless you're tagging a target under both Hex and Hexblade's Curse at least twice (both of which are limited resources that tie up the BA and HBC can't even be moved to anotehr creature until tier 4).

But more specific to the OP, he seems to be involved in melee (magical weapon, presumably a shield from his AC and taking Hexblade), so sinking an invocation into AB and making EB their main go to seems like a a complete playstyle change. If any of that is wrong the apologies in advance!
I'm more or less, mostly more, involved in melee. As I mentioned allready, I did make an error. I have 13 con and 10 int, sorry for that. My fault.

[Bobthewizard]

Sneak attack away with a hand crossbow - This is the only ranged one-handed weapon other than a blowgun and sling

Hand crossbows, slings and blowguns all require two free hands to reload them. Crossbow expert gets rid of the loading property to allow multiple attacks per round but does not eliminate the ammunition property requiring a free hand.

Crossbow expert allows you to make an attack with a previously loaded hand crossbow after attacking with a weapon in the other hand, but only on the first round. After round one, you would have to stow your primary weapon in order to reload your hand crossbow, and then you wouldn't get the extra attack.

In theory, you could carry several loaded hand crossbows and drop your used one, draw a new one and use it to attack after your primary attack each round, but you can't reload the first one without a free hand.

To the OP, your setup is fine. My goal would be Warlock 5 (for 3rd level spells, the biggest jump in the game) and then Rogue 7 for Evasion. After that you could go for more spells with Warlock or better sneak attack with Rogue.

[theRoyzen]

Hand crossbows, slings and blowguns all require two free hands to reload them. Crossbow expert gets rid of the loading property to allow multiple attacks per round but does not eliminate the ammunition property requiring a free hand.

Crossbow expert allows you to make an attack with a previously loaded hand crossbow after attacking with a weapon in the other hand, but only on the first round. After round one, you would have to stow your primary weapon in order to reload your hand crossbow, and then you wouldn't get the extra attack.

In theory, you could carry several loaded hand crossbows and drop your used one, draw a new one and use it to attack after your primary attack each round, but you can't reload the first one without a free hand.

To the OP, your setup is fine. My goal would be Warlock 5 (for 3rd level spells, the biggest jump in the game) and then Rogue 7 for Evasion. After that you could go for more spells with Warlock or better sneak attack with Rogue.

What subclass would you say, fits better or best?

[Edwin Briar]

Hexblade combined with a "College of Swords"-Bard could work (ironically the class never states melee for the Blade Flourish features in XGtE). Due to how Spell Slots from Pact Magic and all other Caster classes combine on a Multiclass you could get the most out of them this way, adding some strong support as well as giving access to other classes spells with Magical Secrets to even out the gaps in the party. Also it benefits more from your high Charisma stat and evens out the parties shortcomings with Jack of All Trades (as well as the same amount of Expertise as a Rogue).

Also nobody can save you from murder hobo characters, as they are played by murder hobo players. (I am new to D&D, but not new to P&P).

[Vogie]

Hand crossbows, slings and blowguns all require two free hands to reload them. Crossbow expert gets rid of the loading property to allow multiple attacks per round but does not eliminate the ammunition property requiring a free hand.

Crossbow expert allows you to make an attack with a previously loaded hand crossbow after attacking with a weapon in the other hand, but only on the first round. After round one, you would have to stow your primary weapon in order to reload your hand crossbow, and then you wouldn't get the extra attack.


And so... if your primary weapon IS the hand crossbow... you always have a free hand.


When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding

Note how the feat doesn't indicate anything about having the hand crossbow in your other- or off-hand. If you are holding a hand crossbow, and only a hand crossbow, you have a free hand to "load" the crossbow, even though it no longer has the loading property. And you can make 2 attacks, one as your action, triggering the Expert feat, providing another attack as your bonus action.

Provided, of course, that you have a second hand. If your PC only has a single hand, then you would be correct - you will have to unsheathe a new, loaded crossbow each turn.

[bid]

8th Overall (5War/3Swash) would give you (assuming a mundane Rapier) 1d8+4+2d6 for an average of 17 vs the average of 20 for EB. So +3 dmg on average for having to hit a target twice. Once you hit Rogue 5 that surpasses EB by 1 whilst you still have two whole levels before EB scales up again.
"having to hit a target twice" is exactly why rogues use TWF. That's an argument for EB, not against.
Hexlock 5 / rogue 5 will most likely have Cha20 with actor and an ASI, rogue is still 1 point short.
But yeah, late night made me 2 level off.

Still, Con13 and a desire for melee changes the assumptions. It makes the build more combat-oriented and weakens mastermind.
I wonder if Con13 / Cha17 was the usual mistake instead of a stepping stone to actor. Con14 / Cha16 is the better choice otherwise.

[zinycor]

If you don't want to rely too much on your party, I really don't see any way for you to succeed as a warlock/rogue character. If your party is full of murderhobos, I say be a team player and play with them, not against them.

[Nagog]

Personally I'd stick with Warlock, unless you want the 1 level dip for Expertise. As has been stated, straight Warlock will give you more attack power and versatility than multiclassing Rogue would. If you do end up going Rogue, I'd go Assassin with 3 levels into Rogue, as the starting skill with that combine with Eldritch Blast's multiple beams at higher levels can maximize your damage output for both, giving you automatic crits on each attack. Granted only one of those hits gains Sneak Attack damage, but even so criting on a ranged 1d10 Eldritch Blast across multiple enemies is really nice.
The only downside to going Assassin is you get proficiency with Disguise kits, which if you already have Mask of Many Faces, is redundant.

[Vogie]

Personally I'd stick with Warlock, unless you want the 1 level dip for Expertise. As has been stated, straight Warlock will give you more attack power and versatility than multiclassing Rogue would. If you do end up going Rogue, I'd go Assassin with 3 levels into Rogue, as the starting skill with that combine with Eldritch Blast's multiple beams at higher levels can maximize your damage output for both, giving you automatic crits on each attack. Granted only one of those hits gains Sneak Attack damage, but even so criting on a ranged 1d10 Eldritch Blast across multiple enemies is really nice.
The only downside to going Assassin is you get proficiency with Disguise kits, which if you already have Mask of Many Faces, is redundant.

Eldritch Blast isn't an "attack using a finesse or a ranged weapon", so you can't sneak attack with it.

However, the Assassinate feature's "advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet" and "any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit" do still apply to the spell.

[theRoyzen]

Hexblade combined with a "College of Swords"-Bard could work (ironically the class never states melee for the Blade Flourish features in XGtE). Due to how Spell Slots from Pact Magic and all other Caster classes combine on a Multiclass you could get the most out of them this way, adding some strong support as well as giving access to other classes spells with Magical Secrets to even out the gaps in the party. Also it benefits more from your high Charisma stat and evens out the parties shortcomings with Jack of All Trades (as well as the same amount of Expertise as a Rogue).

Also nobody can save you from murder hobo characters, as they are played by murder hobo players. (I am new to D&D, but not new to P&P).
I never thought about Bard. It is an interesting idea. I even played with the thought now a little bit and came to an idea, that's rather stupid, but it would be a warlock/bard/rogue multiclass, like 8 hexblade/school of blade/swashbuckler. Sounds a little stupid but funny at the same time.


"having to hit a target twice" is exactly why rogues use TWF. That's an argument for EB, not against.
Hexlock 5 / rogue 5 will most likely have Cha20 with actor and an ASI, rogue is still 1 point short.
But yeah, late night made me 2 level off.

Still, Con13 and a desire for melee changes the assumptions. It makes the build more combat-oriented and weakens mastermind.
I wonder if Con13 / Cha17 was the usual mistake instead of a stepping stone to actor. Con14 / Cha16 is the better choice otherwise.
Can't say it was planed, but later saw my self the actor, what would work like a charm with master mind


If you don't want to rely too much on your party, I really don't see any way for you to succeed as a warlock/rogue character. If your party is full of murderhobos, I say be a team player and play with them, not against them.
I'm not against them, I'm getting more and more salty with them, cuz they ruin something or bring them self in a very tight and bad spot. And then I have to save them, I'm not even the DM. I know, that someday I just will walk away from the **** they produced and let them handle it themselves.



Personally I'd stick with Warlock, unless you want the 1 level dip for Expertise. As has been stated, straight Warlock will give you more attack power and versatility than multiclassing Rogue would. If you do end up going Rogue, I'd go Assassin with 3 levels into Rogue, as the starting skill with that combine with Eldritch Blast's multiple beams at higher levels can maximize your damage output for both, giving you automatic crits on each attack. Granted only one of those hits gains Sneak Attack damage, but even so criting on a ranged 1d10 Eldritch Blast across multiple enemies is really nice.
The only downside to going Assassin is you get proficiency with Disguise kits, which if you already have Mask of Many Faces, is redundant.
It works with assassin? Nice, and the eldritch invocation I could change of course.

[Keravath]

Getting a few levels of rogue can work well with warlock but it really depends on how you see the character and what you want to do.

1) If you want to use weapons in combat and remain relevant as a warlock/rogue then you either need a lot of rogue levels (for sneak attack) or you need to be a blade pact warlock for thirsting blade and possibly improved pact weapon or both. (Alternatively, the booming blade cantrip can help out a bit but it is only an extra d8 damage on each attack after level 5 with additional damage if the target moves. If you want to go this route then swashbuckler might be the best rogue choice - just take 3 levels, use booming blade to attack in melee, then retreat from the target hoping they will move and take additional damage).

As a chain lock, you will be fine in melee combat until level 5. After that you fall FAR behind every other class. Eldritch blast + agonizing blast invocation will be better than any melee option you have available after level 5 if you don't specifically build your character to be better at melee. I'd suggest getting the agonizing blast invocation as soon as you can since with your current abilities agonizing blast will be by far your best damage option.

2) Adding 3 levels of rogue can be beneficial. An additional skill, proficiency in thieves tools, expertise in two skills, a little bit of sneak attack damage, cunning action at level 2 and an archetype at level 3.

- Arcane trickster is a good choice because warlocks are always short of spell slots. A hexblade can have the shield spell but they never have enough spell slots. You also pick up additional cantrips and mage hand legerdemain which can be very useful and a lot of fun.
- Swashbuckler lets you execute a melee attack and retreat. This works best with the booming blade cantrip to augment damage and inflict additional damage if the target moves. This is fine if you have one attack but it will still be less damage that agonizing blast.

e.g. rapier sneak attack with booming blade at level 6 with 3 levels of rogue = d8 (rapier) + d8 (bb) + 2d6 (sneak) + 3 = 19 average damage. Agonizing blast = 2d10 + 6 = 17 average damage. So it is more or less competitive in terms of damage and could do more if the target moves. However, if you happen to have hex running then the weapon attack only adds d6 while AB adds 2d6 and AB comes out ahead.

On the other hand, as you go to higher levels, your damage as a warlock in melee doesn't really increase without blade pact. At level 11, AB will be doing 3d10 + 15 while the booming blade attack would do d8 + 2d8 + 2d6 +5 assuming that you still have 3 levels of rogue and have boosted your attack stat to 20. You need Lifedrinker to keep a weapon focused warlock doing reasonable damage in tier 3.

3) A mostly rogue build uses the warlock abilities to support the rogue abilities - darkness+devil's sight to gain advantage and regularly enable sneak attack. Blade pact warlock for Thirsting blade to give the rogue extra attempts to land the sneak attack. This works better with a ranged rogue build though the level 9 arcane trickster ability giving targets disadvantage on saves for spells cast by the hidden rogue can be very useful when supplemented by the warlock spell selection.

4) A primarily melee warlock build would again typically go pact of the blade, then possibly take Pole Arm Master or Great Weapon Master or both. Combine this with darkness+devils sight or shadow of moil to give the warlock advantage on attack rolls which increases the effectiveness of GWM. Add in Lifedrinker at level 12 for extra damage.

Anyway, two levels of rogue offers cunning action which is exceptionally useful for a lot of classes and skills and expertise. From the sounds of your game, your group might just be looking for someone to find traps, open chests and do typical rogue things in which case even one level of rogue might be enough. As a rogue though you should probably have expertise in perception and investigation to notice/discover/figure out traps etc (if your DM likes to use traps). Ideally, you might also have expertise in thieves tools to make disarming and opening easier but that would be somewhat optional depending on how your DM tends to play things.

[Dork_Forge]

"having to hit a target twice" is exactly why rogues use TWF. That's an argument for EB, not against.
Hexlock 5 / rogue 5 will most likely have Cha20 with actor and an ASI, rogue is still 1 point short.
But yeah, late night made me 2 level off.

Still, Con13 and a desire for melee changes the assumptions. It makes the build more combat-oriented and weakens mastermind.
I wonder if Con13 / Cha17 was the usual mistake instead of a stepping stone to actor. Con14 / Cha16 is the better choice otherwise.

TWF is just an extra opportunity to get SA off or utilise your BA if you're not going to Cunning Action (or any other BA you may have), where as the power of EB explicitly comes from having to hit multiple times, if you don't hit with all your beams then your damage drop off is severe. But ultimately it comes down to if OP wants to be in melee then it just makes sense to utilise a core class feature of something they wants to multiclass into anyway.

I'm not really sure what your point about the actor and ASI was? As a Hexblade OP uses Cha for attacks anyway and I never said anything about not taking Actor if they're so inclined. For OP Elven Accuracy would also be a good option feat wise, though better for higher levels since you'd want Actor to help pull off Mask of Many Faces infilitrations.

[Edwin Briar]

I never thought about Bard. It is an interesting idea. I even played with the thought now a little bit and came to an idea, that's rather stupid, but it would be a warlock/bard/rogue multiclass, like 8 hexblade/school of blade/swashbuckler. Sounds a little stupid but funny at the same time.

He replied to the guy planning a combination of Archfey/Fiend* Warlock (10), Mastermind Rogue (7) & Glamour Bard (3). My build has 2 purposes...support the party (by being good at everything but combat and making sure they are better in combat) and ensure my own survival.

* I am uncertain yet which to pick, as my Patron is supposed to have a theme around: "Every action is a note played and you shall deliver unto me a great performance. So go and conduct the orchestra that is the world for my pleasure.", yet for the build the patron feature is almost secondary.

[Keravath]

He replied to the guy planning a combination of Archfey/Fiend* Warlock (10), Mastermind Rogue (7) & Glamour Bard (3). My build has 2 purposes...support the party (by being good at everything but combat and making sure they are better in combat) and ensure my own survival.

* I am uncertain yet which to pick, as my Patron is supposed to have a theme around: "Every action is a note played and you shall deliver unto me a great performance. So go and conduct the orchestra that is the world for my pleasure.", yet for the build the patron feature is almost secondary.

Personally, I think the phrasing of the patron theme you mention sounds far more like Fey than Fiend though you can make anything work in D&D if you want to .. :)

[Nagog]

Eldritch Blast isn't an "attack using a finesse or a ranged weapon", so you can't sneak attack with it.

However, the Assassinate feature's "advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet" and "any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit" do still apply to the spell.

Valid point. Even so, without the extra d6s of damage, getting a crit with multiple blasts could really come in handy. Perhaps Hex and Hexblade's curse could even the odds, depending on whether or not the DM rules if those crit as well or not. In terms of which method to go through, Warlock tends to have more scaling stuff (spell slots and such), while the main scaling abilities of the Rogue is the Sneak Attack damage. So For this build/combo, I'd go 3 Assassin Rogue, Warlock x to maximize the ranged assassination damage. Perhaps combining this with Eldritch Spear and Spell Sniper for a 600 ft range sniper assassin?

[bid]

where as the power of EB explicitly comes from having to hit multiple times, if you don't hit with all your beams then your damage drop off is severe.
Whereas missing your one shot at SA is somehow a less severe drop?

Your lack of understanding of probability and statistics is showing.

[Dork_Forge]

Whereas missing your one shot at SA is somehow a less severe drop?

Your lack of understanding of probability and statistics is showing.

What? My point was that you need to hit all beams to achieve max damage, instead of needing to hit once... And seeing as all it takes is for an enemy to be within melee of you to give you disadvantage on all those rolls, that's a non trivial thing. Undoubtedly an Eldritch blast with multiple beams is going to have more chances to hit than a single attack, you're rolling more dice, but your posts were ignoring the chance of missing and hitting with every beam. So with EB your actual damage is very swingy between the damage dice and needing maximum hits, whereas for SA you either hit or you don't (be that with main attack, TWF or attacks of opportunity which by standard EB can't be used on).

[Nagog]

What? My point was that you need to hit all beams to achieve max damage, instead of needing to hit once... And seeing as all it takes is for an enemy to be within melee of you to give you disadvantage on all those rolls, that's a non trivial thing. Undoubtedly an Eldritch blast with multiple beams is going to have more chances to hit than a single attack, you're rolling more dice, but your posts were ignoring the chance of missing and hitting with every beam. So with EB your actual damage is very swingy between the damage dice and needing maximum hits, whereas for SA you either hit or you don't (be that with main attack, TWF or attacks of opportunity which by standard EB can't be used on).

If you're in melee range with somebody, you're better off using a melee attack and gaining the Sneak Attack crit. If not, however, you are more likely to hit with at least one of your EB, giving you damage when a miss with a melee attack would give away your position without dealing any damage at all.

[Dork_Forge]

If you're in melee range with somebody, you're better off using a melee attack and gaining the Sneak Attack crit. If not, however, you are more likely to hit with at least one of your EB, giving you damage when a miss with a melee attack would give away your position without dealing any damage at all.

I think you might have got confused who i was replying to? I haven't said anything about Assassinate and I agree, you're more likely to do some amount of damage with EB than a standard melee because you're rolling a lot more dice.

[bid]

What? My point was that you need to hit all beams to achieve max damage, instead of needing to hit once...
And you need to miss all beams to achieve min damage, instead of needing to miss once.


So with EB your actual damage is very swingy
Standard deviation is lower for EB. Proof enough you don't know what you are talking about.

[Dork_Forge]

And you need to miss all beams to achieve min damage, instead of needing to miss once.


Standard deviation is lower for EB. Proof enough you don't know what you are talking about.

Minimum damage is not 0, 0 is a miss. You'd need to hit once with your EB to achieve minimum damage, which is 1/10. EB has a better chance of doing some damage because you have more chances to hit, yes. Minimum damage on EB dice below level 11 is 2, SA is 4 (assuming the 5/5 split). The average of just the dice involved is higher for SA attacks, the minimum is higher and the maximum is higher. I know very well what I'm talking about, and the only thing that props up EB is it's dependence on AB and if a EB based ranged character is taking AB then surely a melee character is talking a melee cantrip which would compensate for the additional 1-3 (times) additional mod damage you would get if you hit all attacks.

At the end of the day it just depends on whether OP is melee (as it appears they are) or ranged.

[Nagog]

I think you might have got confused who i was replying to? I haven't said anything about Assassinate and I agree, you're more likely to do some amount of damage with EB than a standard melee because you're rolling a lot more dice.

My mistake, I'm sorry.


Minimum damage is not 0, 0 is a miss. You'd need to hit once with your EB to achieve minimum damage, which is 1/10. EB has a better chance of doing some damage because you have more chances to hit, yes. Minimum damage on EB dice below level 11 is 2, SA is 4 (assuming the 5/5 split). The average of just the dice involved is higher for SA attacks, the minimum is higher and the maximum is higher. I know very well what I'm talking about, and the only thing that props up EB is it's dependence on AB and if a EB based ranged character is taking AB then surely a melee character is talking a melee cantrip which would compensate for the additional 1-3 (times) additional mod damage you would get if you hit all attacks.

At the end of the day it just depends on whether OP is melee (as it appears they are) or ranged.

Agreed. Both builds do quite well in their own right, considering risk/reward of being ranged or in melee.

[theRoyzen]

At the end of the day it just depends on whether OP is melee (as it appears they are) or ranged.

Yeah, I would prefer to be melee with spells for backup. I don't wanna do any meta gaming or power gaming like a coffelock (what our DM said, he would accept it). I just wanna have a real good time playing and always have some tricks up my sleeve. But i'm still open to more ideas.

[Bobthewizard]

What subclass would you say, fits better or best?

I think Rogue and Warlock mesh really well and almost all subclasses work. Just pick the ones you like best for flavor. Both have pretty even power curves so you can multiclass in and out however you want. Your melee attack is booming blade/sneak attack and your ranged is eldritch blast so they both scale mostly with total level. Like with most Warlock multi classes, Hexblade is probably the best since it is OP.

I first went down this path using Arya Stark as inspiration and came up with GOO Warlock with Devil's Sight and Mask of Many Faces combined with Assassin rogue. Higher level assassin abilities are redundant with Mask of Many Faces and expertise in deception, though, so I'll take more Warlock than Rogue.

I started VH mobile feat, Rogue 1 with expertise in stealth and deception, then Warlock 5 for level 3 spells, then back to Rogue, likely to 7 before finishing with Warlock.

[Fable Wright]

Disregarding the rest of the thread:

You said that what you wanted out of Rogue was simply Stealth, Thieves' Tools, and Thieves' Cant?

Have you considered Prodigy for Stealth + Stealth Expertise + Thieves Tool proficiency, and ask your DM for Thieves Cant as a quest or downtime benefit? Sneak attack is bad for your ranged spell attack strategy, and Cunning Action is the other potential benefit, but you can get full spell progression AND your key skills without needing to multiclass.

So why not just take the feat?

[theRoyzen]

Disregarding the rest of the thread:

You said that what you wanted out of Rogue was simply Stealth, Thieves' Tools, and Thieves' Cant?

Have you considered Prodigy for Stealth + Stealth Expertise + Thieves Tool proficiency, and ask your DM for Thieves Cant as a quest or downtime benefit? Sneak attack is bad for your ranged spell attack strategy, and Cunning Action is the other potential benefit, but you can get full spell progression AND your key skills without needing to multiclass.

So why not just take the feat?

That's something new. I didn't know that. Sounds good for me. Thank you.

[Keravath]

Disregarding the rest of the thread:

You said that what you wanted out of Rogue was simply Stealth, Thieves' Tools, and Thieves' Cant?

Have you considered Prodigy for Stealth + Stealth Expertise + Thieves Tool proficiency, and ask your DM for Thieves Cant as a quest or downtime benefit? Sneak attack is bad for your ranged spell attack strategy, and Cunning Action is the other potential benefit, but you can get full spell progression AND your key skills without needing to multiclass.

So why not just take the feat?

Prodigy actually includes one skill, one tool and one language plus expertise. So if your DM allows it you could take Stealth, Stealth expertise, Thieves Tool proficiency and Thieves cant all with the Prodigy feat.

[Fable Wright]

I have no idea how I missed the language proficiency in there. Neat!