Question About Spells

[Gale]

Hi, I had an issue with my Dungeon Master tonight involving the use of a couple spells. We had different opinions on the outcomes and I wanted to know what the community thought about them. (I put them in spoiler tags as they're a bit long.)

The first is Major Image. I had been using it to create a fog of darkness that the enemies could not see through, but I could.

The spell says, "Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it." "If a creature discerns the illusion for what it is, the creature can see through the image, and its other sensory qualities become faint to the creature."

I believe that this part of the spell is irrelevant in my case because darkness isn't tangible, at least not in the traditional sense. One expects to be able to walk through darkness, therefore creatures passing through my illusionary darkness should have no reason to suspect that it isn't real.

However, my DM argued that an illusion created by Major Image isn't any more convincing than a hologram. Or in other words it only has the outside appearance of what you've created, and once you step in it's clear that it's fake because the inside is hollow.

I disagree, but I don't believe there's anything in the spell's description that supports or denies his theory. Hence, it's up to him to make the final decision.


This is one is simpler. I was blinded by the spell "Blinding Smite." On my next turn I wanted to Polymorph myself into a Giant Ape, but asked my DM beforehand if I would still be blinded. He said yes and explained that despite the fact that I transformed into a new creature I still had my old eyes, and therefore was still blinded. This didn't make sense to me, so I discussed it with him after the session. He seemed to believe that transmutative effect of the spell simply wouldn't alleviate blindness. I'm highly skeptical about this, but I don't have anything to go off of as the spell doesn't say anything about removing status effects.

EDIT: SOLVED

[CharacterIV]

For the second issue, I side with the DM. Magical blinding effects transcend physiological alteration via Polymorph. It's magic.

If you were to Polymorph into a form with Blindsight, though, you're golden.

As for the first one, that's much trickier. A big part of how I'd rule it would be what level of knowledge the foes trapped by your "fog of darkness" have.

For example, are they aware of the existence of the spell Darkness? If they were magic-savvy, such as a squadron of Drow Assassins (VERY familiar with Darkness) they'd have sufficient reason to disbelieve it. If they weren't as intelligent or experienced, I'd say they'd have less reason to disbelieve and see through it.

Of course, if I'm understanding the DM's decision correctly, he's pointing out that Major Image only has the "skin" of the object depicted. The wall is dark on the outside, but not on the inside, if that makes sense. If you'd made an illusion of a red dragon, for example, and someone ran right through it, as soon as they cleared the border of the dragon, they'd have no visual hindrance. It wouldn't be like their vision would be hindered by seeing only red in front of their eyes.

[Gale]

If Blinding Smite inflicted magical blindness then I wouldn't have an issue with its effects transcending through Polymorph's transmutation. But it doesn't. The light created by the spell blinds the target, not the magic of the spell itself. If the blindness truly was magical in nature then it could be dispelled, but it can't be.

[DarkKnightJin]

If Blinding Smite inflicted magical blindness then I wouldn't have an issue with its effects transcending through Polymorph's transmutation. But it doesn't. The light created by the spell blinds the target, not the magic of the spell itself. If the blindness truly was magical in nature then it could be dispelled, but it can't be.

Blinding Smite is a Concentration spell, just like all the other Smite spells. That implies the blinding is magical, and you *would* be able to Dispell it.
I'm with your DM on Polymorph not 'curing' the Blindness here. But not with thw 'justification' that it's your 'own eyes'. Because that's not how Polymorph works. Hell, that's not even how Wildshape works.

[Gale]

My bad, I should have read up on the spell more. It quite clearly states that the target is "blinded until the spell ends" which quite clearly indicates the blindness is magical.

[Jerrykhor]

I'd say you are wrong on the Major Image. The spell says you can create an image of an object or creature, and a fog of darkness is neither.

[Gale]

The image can also be a "visible phenomenon" which I would say a fog of darkness falls under.

[Jerrykhor]

The image can also be a "visible phenomenon" which I would say a fog of darkness falls under.

Whoops, my bad. I'm not sure what your DM means by it 'not being any more convincing than a hologram'. Stepping into the darkness would count as physical interaction, that i agree. But from the outside, it should look convincing enough to fool anyone without the help of magic. Is he saying that anyone can immediately tell its an illusion on first glance?

[DarkKnightJin]

Whoops, my bad. I'm not sure what your DM means by it 'not being any more convincing than a hologram'. Stepping into the darkness would count as physical interaction, that i agree. But from the outside, it should look convincing enough to fool anyone without the help of magic. Is he saying that anyone can immediately tell its an illusion on first glance?

Sounds like a terrible DM to have when you're playing an Illusionist..

[Ninja_Prawn]

After some consideration, I think I'm on the side of major image can work as a substitute for darkness.

If anyone has reason to believe it's an illusion, they'd be allowed to make a check to disbelieve it, but the circumstances in which a person would become suspicious seem limited. Certainly someone who sees you cast it and knows either of the two spells should be able spot the difference in spell components (darkness has no somatic component, but major image does). Anyone with devil's sight will notice that they can't see through the illusion, when they should be able to see through magical darkness. Things like that.

[Bobthewizard]

For Polymorph, I agree with your DM's rule but not his reasoning. You don't keep your old eyes, but the blindness carries over since it's magical.

For the fog of darkness, I think you are right. I used to think the way your DM does, but looking at the illusion spells they all say "Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it. (emphasis mine). I think this means that it's the unexpected passing through that reveals the illusion, so fog, darkness or even ghosts would require an action and Investigation check and not just interaction.

I think this makes Darkness (except with Devil's Sight) and Fog Cloud pretty terrible spells since you can replicate both with a 1st level Silent Image.

[darknite]

The first issue is why I don't use illusionists in D&D. Illusions have proven to be too subjective and prone to contrary interpretations by DMs I've played with. Because they're 'not real' DMs, like players, look for outs that allow their NPCs to discover the illusory nature of the situation. You will rarely find a DM that interprets illusions favorably, in my experience.

[Bobthewizard]

The first issue is why I don't use illusionists in D&D. Illusions have proven to be too subjective and prone to contrary interpretations by DMs I've played with. Because they're 'not real' DMs, like players, look for outs that allow their NPCs to discover the illusory nature of the situation. You will rarely find a DM that interprets illusions favorably, in my experience.

Here are the guidelines I give my players if they want to use illusions. For NPCs and monsters, investigation will fall into one of 3 categories. I use #3 if there is any debate with the player.

1. If the illusion appears reasonable and target has more pressing concerns, they believe it and do not try to save. i.e. a wall in front of you while the enemy is in melee with the rest of the party.

2. If the illusion is out of place or their most pressing concern, target will use their action to make an INVESTIGATION check or interact with the illusion. i.e. demon attacks them, darkness around them

3. If unsure, DM can use passive PERCEPTION to decide if the target uses action to save. If they pass PERCEPTION check, they think something might not be right and want to investigate. DM can role this for players, telling them “you think it might be an illusion.”

I would never have NPCs just completely ignore an illusion. It should always have some effect.