Getting the Most CL out of Master Spellthief

[Jowgen]

Everyone should be pretty familiar with Master Spellthief and the associated debates. For one, this thread is not about questions as to how Steal Spell stacks up. This is purely about the caster level stacking.


Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells.

So we start basic with Spellthief 1 and we take Magical Training.


[...]and are treated as a sorcerer or wizard of your arcane spellcaster level (minimum 1st) for the purpose of determining level-based variables of the spells you cast.

So now our Sorc/Wiz caster level equals our overall arcane spellcaster level, so if we go Spellthief 4 we have a Spellthief CL of 4 and a Sorc/Wiz CL of 4.

At some point we also want to qualify for Master Spellthief obviously, requiring the ability to cast a 2nd level arcane spell. We could take levels (e.g. trickster spellthief), or just take Precocious Apprentice, doesn't really matter.

Our Spellthief and (virtual) Sorc/Wiz CL are now stacked together to determine functional arcane CL. More on this and inherent dysfunctions later.

So this is the basic use of the combo, but I'd like to look into ways to take it further.

My first idea is to go Eldritch Theurge.

This assumes that Warlock is considered an Arcane Caster, which is a topic of some debate, though in my experience they are usually considered such. So lets say we take 3 levels of Warlock to get the Eldritch Blast prerequisite down (though one level with a Chausible of Fell Power should do really), so we can enter Eldritch Theurge at 6th level.

Eldritch Theurge has 2 separate class features that improve our CL:


increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class (but not an invocation-using class) to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. [...]
increase in caster level as if you had also gained a level in an invocation-using class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.

A Warlock 3, Spellthief 3, Eldritch Theurge 3 with Magical Training has caster levels of Warlock 6, Spellthief 6 and Sorc/Wiz 6.

Now we add Master Spellthief.

The question how the various CLs boil together is at what point we allow Magical Training's Sorc/Wiz CL to set itself as to be added to the total.

By RAW we have an infinite loop, as our Sorc/Wiz CL is set to our total CL, but our total CL is the sum of our CLs including Sorc/Wiz. We want to avoid that. I see two options.

1. We apply Master Spellthief in 1 step. Warlock, Spellthief and Sorc/Wiz are all taken at the same time, with Magical Training set at the highest CL present at this 1 step, then add them together: 6 + 6 + 6 = 18.
2. We apply Master Spellthief in 2 steps. First Warlock and Spellthief are added together with Master Spellthief: 6 + 6 = 12. Then Magical Training is set to the highest present at step 1 total of 12, and then Master Spellthief is applied a second time: 12 + 12 = 24.

In a way you can see it as the question if we are allowed to add Master Spellthief into the formula once in total, or once per source of CL beyond the first (so twice in this scenario).

If we go with option 1, each additional level in Theurge will improve our CL by 3 (1 Sp, 1 War, 1 Wiz). If we go with option 2, each additional level in Theurge will improve our CL by 4 (1 Sp, 1 War, 2 Wiz). Going with a simple Spellthief 5, Warlock 5, Eldritch Theurge 10 build, that is the difference between CL of 45 or CL 60.

Opinions on what is the better way to handle it would be welcome.

The other question though is how this concept can be improved upon, i.e. what other sources of Arcane CL could be added to such a character to further boost the disproportional gain.

Last questions of course is how one might best capitalize on having such a ridiculous CL while constrained by these class/feat choices.

[Venger]

Very interesting. With a cl that high, dispelling and/or blasphemy (or whatever equivalent depending on your guy's alignment) are the standbys.

Go with the second, since effects are always applied in whatever order is most beneficial to you.

While you'll probably need to use devices to a certain extent, I know there is some class of item that lets you use your own caster level instead of the items. I don't know exactly what. Staves? Skull talismans? Maybe you know what I mean. If so, gate has great potential for hilarity. With your cl, you can get some of the punier gods, or failing that, their aspects.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Opinions on what is the better way to handle it would be welcome.
My view is that each piece of the puzzle can be used once (so option 2 is illegal), and it's up to the player to order them in whatever way suits them. It would be polite for other players at the table--DM included--to point out the most beneficial order.

The best use of high caster levels is to cast mental pinnacle and do stupid crazy things with psionics. By which I mean that there's probably something cool in that direction, but I'm too tired to think any further.

[Jowgen]

Very interesting. With a cl that high, dispelling and/or blasphemy (or whatever equivalent depending on your guy's alignment) are the standbys.

Go with the second, since effects are always applied in whatever order is most beneficial to you.

While you'll probably need to use devices to a certain extent, I know there is some class of item that lets you use your own caster level instead of the items. I don't know exactly what. Staves? Skull talismans? Maybe you know what I mean. If so, gate has great potential for hilarity. With your cl, you can get some of the punier gods, or failing that, their aspects.

Regular Staves and Runestaves (MIC) both have this quality. Added to the list of fun things to do with CL = Big.


My view is that each piece of the puzzle can be used once (so option 2 is illegal), and it's up to the player to order them in whatever way suits them. It would be polite for other players at the table--DM included--to point out the most beneficial order.

In that case though, a player could still argue for option 2 by stating that they are applying Magical Training in the most beneficial order that is having it set its CL after the the first 2 CL have been added together; i.e. leave the X CL presented by Magical Training unresolved until the last moment before it's turn to be added via Master Spellthief comes in the order of operation.

Though a DM could shut that argument down by simply demanding that all the values be set at the beginning of the CL-addition process, as to prevent changes during the process.

[ExLibrisMortis]

In that case though, a player could still argue for option 2 by stating that they are applying Magical Training in the most beneficial order that is having it set its CL after the the first 2 CL have been added together; i.e. leave the X CL presented by Magical Training unresolved until the last moment before it's turn to be added via Master Spellthief comes in the order of operation.
How does that help, though? Maybe I'm missing something.

You can add warlock and spellthief, getting CL 12 with Master Spellthief, then set your Magical Training CL to 12.
You can set Magical Training to 6, add warlock and MT and spellthief with Master Spellthief, and get CL 18.

But in no legal version of this (in my view, anyway), can any of these things ("set MT"/"add things with MS") occur twice, that is, you can't set MT CL twice, and you can't add CLs twice.

[WhamBamSam]

Arcane spellcaster level seems to refer to the specific level of effective spellcasting (ie, a Wizard 3/Master Specialist 5 has a spellcaster level of 8 even if his CL is higher). I don't think option 2 is how it works for that reason. If there were a more beneficial order by which you could get a greater benefit, you could use it, but Master Spellthief just affects your caster level, not your spellcaster level. At least that's what I read the use of distinct terms to mean.

Anyway, Godsblood Spelltheft seems a natural way to access your preferred flavor of Holy Word for a build like this.

Reserves of Strength to break CL caps on spells also seems like a natural way to go.

[DarkSoul]

You're following the same flawed reasoning The Word tried to abuse. First, Master Spellthief's benefit looks at class levels, not caster levels. Second, Magical Training's CL-setting clause refers to the spells gained with the feat, not all your spells ever. So the whole idea is basically a non-starter.

[Jowgen]

Arcane spellcaster level seems to refer to the specific level of effective spellcasting (ie, a Wizard 3/Master Specialist 5 has a spellcaster level of 8 even if his CL is higher). I don't think option 2 is how it works for that reason. If there were a more beneficial order by which you could get a greater benefit, you could use it, but Master Spellthief just affects your caster level, not your spellcaster level. At least that's what I read the use of distinct terms to mean.

The language is confounding indeed. CL is a function of Arcane Spellcaster level (i.e. number of levels in relevant classes), which is a one way street. MS changes that function, question is how MT's variable nature factors into things.


How does that help, though? Maybe I'm missing something.

You can add warlock and spellthief, getting CL 12 with Master Spellthief, then set your Magical Training CL to 12.
You can set Magical Training to 6, add warlock and MT and spellthief with Master Spellthief, and get CL 18.

But in no legal version of this (in my view, anyway), can any of these things ("set MT"/"add things with MS") occur twice, that is, you can't set MT CL twice, and you can't add CLs twice.

The idea is that MT CL is a variable value that auto-updates with sufficient priority that it can do so while the MS addition takes place, i.e. that the addition of each spellcaster level onto the last in the process of getting to the toal is an event in the calculation process, rather than it being a single string that can not be interrupted. It's almost like a question of punctuation, like whether you believe in the Oxford Comma or not.

Before MS is taken/applied, MT is at CL=highest-without-MS. When MS is taken/aplied, we decide the order in which we can add our various spellcaster levels together. By choosing to add MT's third, we allow MT the opportunity to update itself to the intermediate value before being added to the total. At that point, we prevent the loop by forbidding MT to update itself again because it already had its turn to update and be added in the process of calculation.

I think both options are within the realm of legality, and I very much doubt that any rules text to specify such a minutia of effect calculation timing. After all, we're already making a RAI call to prevent loop.


You're following the same flawed reasoning The Word tried to abuse. First, Master Spellthief's benefit looks at class levels, not caster levels. Second, Magical Training's CL-setting clause refers to the spells gained with the feat, not all your spells ever. So the whole idea is basically a non-starter.

I agree that MS deals in class levels at the base, so simple "bonus to caster level" boosts wouldn't multiply.

I also considered The Word's approach, and believe that this current set up works for the following reasons.

Eldritch Theurge: for both relevant class features, the benefit is "increase in caster level as if X were gained". Gaining levels in either Warlock or Spellthief while having Master Spellthief would result in the described caster level increase.

So I suppose that technically, Master Spellthief isn't stacking the boosted class levels, but Eldritch Theurge is granting a larger bonus to CL due to Master Spellthief changing what CL benefits gaining levels while under Master Spellthief would bring.

Magical Training: While we do not actually gain class levels in Wiz/Sorc, we are to be treated as a Wiz/Sorc of X level when it comes to determining level-based variables. Caster Level is a level-based variable, so we are treated as X level Wiz/Sorc for determining it. Master Spellthief alters the usual formula for determining CL to include all Spellcaster Levels together, which as we just covered for us includes being treated as a Sorc/Wiz of X level. Even if Magical Training's CL is taken to only apply to those spells usually, Master Spellthief specifically overwrites that distinction.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The idea is that MT CL is a variable value that auto-updates with sufficient priority that it can do so while the MS addition takes place, i.e. that the addition of each spellcaster level onto the last in the process of getting to the toal is an event in the calculation process, rather than it being a single string that can not be interrupted. It's almost like a question of punctuation, like whether you believe in the Oxford Comma or not.

Before MS is taken/applied, MT is at CL=highest-without-MS. When MS is taken/aplied, we decide the order in which we can add our various spellcaster levels together. By choosing to add MT's third, we allow MT the opportunity to update itself to the intermediate value before being added to the total. At that point, we prevent the loop by forbidding MT to update itself again because it already had its turn to update and be added in the process of calculation.

I think both options are within the realm of legality, and I very much doubt that any rules text to specify such a minutia of effect calculation timing. After all, we're already making a RAI call to prevent loop.
I think there's no such thing as "auto-updating". You have to manually apply each effect, step by step, completing each one before moving on to the next. That prevents any sort of "updating while addition takes place", which is a really weird concept. Before you start adding, you need to know what you're adding, and you need to add numbers.

[Sleven]

This has already been done before (see signature), as with most TO people continue to rediscover. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone thought of abusing Magical Training in this manner before me. Although as far as I’m aware no one’s done it with Knight of the Weave before (which should complete the loop).

Spellthief doesn’t apply until you actually cast the spell though, so it needs to be the last part of the equation.

[daremetoidareyo]

Spellthief 5/assassin 3/other prestige caster (trapsmith maybe?) merchant prince? Vigilante?


Take practiced spell caster 3 times, once for each arcane class.

Spellthief CL =6
assassin CL = 7
Other CL = 5

CL = 18

Possibly...A krau illumian can add +2 to each of those.

[Jowgen]

I think there's no such thing as "auto-updating". You have to manually apply each effect, step by step, completing each one before moving on to the next. That prevents any sort of "updating while addition takes place", which is a really weird concept. Before you start adding, you need to know what you're adding, and you need to add numbers.

Well going forward, for ease of argument, let us assume option 1 then. It is more likely to fly at a table and still nets us a sizeable return.


This has already been done before (see signature), as with most TO people continue to rediscover. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone thought of abusing Magical Training in this manner before me. Although as far as I’m aware no one’s done it with Knight of the Weave before (which should complete the loop).

Spellthief doesn’t apply until you actually cast the spell though, so it needs to be the last part of the equation.

I was not aware of your prior work, though I guess one could see this as the PO version of your TO build, as we're actively avoiding an infinite loop situation.

Knight of the Weave seems like it might make for an interesting addition, but I can for the life of me not figure out a good way to apply in a way that'll give an appreciable net gain in CL.

MS makes your CL for Arcane Spells the sum of our arcane spellcaster levels. Totally separate to that, for KotW makes its own CL equal to class level plus other arcane CLs, but since it doesn't increase virtual spellcaster level, we are essentially just adding just its class level to the MS total, and it then adds the resulting MS CL to its class level for its own CL... So a net gain of 1 at most I think? Seems like it would be better to instead legacy champion ET.


Spellthief 5/assassin 3/other prestige caster (trapsmith maybe?) merchant prince? Vigilante?

Take practiced spell caster 3 times, once for each arcane class.

Spellthief CL =6
assassin CL = 7
Other CL = 5

CL = 18

Possibly...A krau illumian can add +2 to each of those.

I don't think practiced spellcaster works for our purposes. For one, we have the HD cap on it ; but even if we can argue our way around that, the stacking mechanics for both MT and MS both rely on wording that deals with arcane spellcaster level (i.e. number of levels in class), rather than the resulting CL (ET also bases its CL bonus on adding virtual spellcaster levels).

I.E. Increasing just the CL of the individual components doesn't let them be added together via MS.

[tterreb]

I used this in a Yathrinshee build once. First level allows you to stack your caster level with all other caster levels to determine your caster level for necromancy spells. Take a bunch of 1 level dips in arcane casting classes and reserves of strength... I can't say for sure whether I did all the math right, but I believe I ended up with a necromancy caster level of 300+ before items. Gets even more insane if you can work circle magic into it.

[weckar]

Just for clarity; are we for the purpose of this thread assuming that "spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels" in Master Spellthief refers to caster levels rather than class levels?

[daremetoidareyo]

Just for clarity; are we for the purpose of this thread assuming that "spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels" in Master Spellthief refers to caster levels rather than class levels?

I don't think so, otherwise the practiced manifested trick would work.

[weckar]

I was confused because of this bit:

A Warlock 3, Spellthief 3, Eldritch Theurge 3 with Magical Training has caster levels of Warlock 6, Spellthief 6 and Sorc/Wiz 6.

Now we add Master Spellthief.

The question how the various CLs boil together is at what point we allow Magical Training's Sorc/Wiz CL to set itself as to be added to the total.

You have 3 class levels in warlock, 3 in spellthief, and if we are generous and count eldritch theurge as another arcane casting class that's another 3 (if we aren't generous, by the way, it would come from its own CL granting class extension ability -- that does not provide class levels in what you had before.). Magical training does not grant class levels.

It seems unambiguously that your total CL is 9, unless you choose to read Master Spellthief in the opposite way.

Hence the question.

[Venger]

Maybe not all at once, but is ardent with magic domain useful in moving your numbers sup?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psionic alternate of spellthief plus Master (Psi)thief, Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) so all of your manifesting equals your HD, then single-dip a new manifesting class at every level. Enjoy your HD^2 ML. Or (2*HD)^2 with an orange ioun stone.

[Jowgen]

I was confused because of this bit:


You have 3 class levels in warlock, 3 in spellthief, and if we are generous and count eldritch theurge as another arcane casting class that's another 3 (if we aren't generous, by the way, it would come from its own CL granting class extension ability -- that does not provide class levels in what you had before.). Magical training does not grant class levels.

It seems unambiguously that your total CL is 9, unless you choose to read Master Spellthief in the opposite way.

Hence the question.

The reading is as follows:

MS changes the calculation formula of arcane spell CL so that it becomes the sum of our spellcaster levels, defined as levels in classes that count as Arcane Spellcasters (we are including Warlock, that's a separate discussion).

Magical Training allows us to count as Wiz/Sorc of X level (x equals our arcane caster level) for the purpose of level based variables for spells we cast. As CL is a level based variable, we count as a an X level Wiz/Sorc for the purposes of calculating our arcane spell CL, i.e. we count as an X level Wiz/Sorc for the MS calculation formula.

Eldritch Theurge works differently. It's dual progression class features grant the benefit of a Y increase in CL, wherein Y equals what we would gain if we had gained an arcane spellcaster level in the two base classes chosen. As the MS formula is in effect, the gain in CL we would get from this is larger than normal, so we add 2 CL per level of ET. (this discounts the idea that ET counts as an arcane caster itself, as then we'd get 3, but that's dumb).

So our total formula shakes out to: WarLvl + SpLvl + MtLvl + 2*EtLvl = CL (with MtLvl either being equal to the higher out of WarLvl or SpLvl or the sum of the two, depending on reading).


Maybe not all at once, but is ardent with magic domain useful in moving your numbers sup?

Not at all familiar with Ardents, elaborate plz?

EDIT: it just occurred to me that the effective Sorc/Wiz level we gain from MT is based purely on arcane caster level. Even though we are discounting MS looping into this, I think this means that other Arcane Caster level increasers add into MT's, letting us count as a higher level Sorc/Wiz than our otherwise highest CL.

Essentially, MT combined with MS doubles extraneous increases in arcane CL, as each extra CL we add applies to both the total and modlulates how much MT adds to the base. Doesn't work with Practiced Spellcaster still, but opens up other options.

[ayvango]

Look into the Abjurant Champion class. He could easily boost Spellthief caster level to BAB without actually progressing its lame spellcasting.

[weckar]

The reading is as follows:

MS changes the calculation formula of arcane spell CL so that it becomes the sum of our spellcaster levels, defined as levels in classes that count as Arcane Spellcasters (we are including Warlock, that's a separate discussion).

Magical Training allows us to count as Wiz/Sorc of X level (x equals our arcane caster level) for the purpose of level based variables for spells we cast. As CL is a level based variable, we count as a an X level Wiz/Sorc for the purposes of calculating our arcane spell CL, i.e. we count as an X level Wiz/Sorc for the MS calculation formula.

Eldritch Theurge works differently. It's dual progression class features grant the benefit of a Y increase in CL, wherein Y equals what we would gain if we had gained an arcane spellcaster level in the two base classes chosen. As the MS formula is in effect, the gain in CL we would get from this is larger than normal, so we add 2 CL per level of ET. (this discounts the idea that ET counts as an arcane caster itself, as then we'd get 3, but that's dumb).

So our total formula shakes out to: WarLvl + SpLvl + MtLvl + 2*EtLvl = CL (with MtLvl either being equal to the higher out of WarLvl or SpLvl or the sum of the two, depending on reading).

But that is exactly where the issue is. ET cannot count twice because it increases caster level rather than class level for its contributing classes individually, but Master Spellthief does not care about that. In addition:


[...]and are treated as a sorcerer or wizard of your arcane spellcaster level (minimum 1st) for the purpose of determining level-based variables of the spells you cast.

Emphasis mine. You are not a sorc/wiz for any other purpose, including Master spellthief.

The formula would be WarLvl + SpLvl + ETLvl = CL

[Jowgen]

But that is exactly where the issue is. ET cannot count twice because it increases caster level rather than class level for its contributing classes individually, but Master Spellthief does not care about that. In addition:

Emphasis mine. You are not a sorc/wiz for any other purpose, including Master spellthief.

The formula would be WarLvl + SpLvl + ETLvl = CL

Technically, Elrditch Theurge does not count at all. It is not a class that grants spellcasting, i.e. if you somehow got into it without already having casting it would do nothing.

What ET grants us is an increase in caster level, equal to what we would gain from gaining a class level in a chosen class. It has two features to this effect, one for invocations and one for regular casting. Normally, these factors do not interact, as caster levels for different classes are separate.

This separation is what Master Spellthief alters. It's effect is that our arcane caster level becomes a function of all our arcane spellcaster levels combined. Gaining a spellcaster level in any of those classes increases our overall CL by 1. As such, both CL-boosting abilities of Eldritch Theurge are applied to the same caster level calculation.

I think you understand the formula I'm trying to apply as MsCL = (WarLvl + ET-bonus) + (SpLvl +ET-bonus) (+etc.), but that is not actually the case.

Technically, the calculation needs to be split to account for ET not granting Spellcaster Levels but only a CL-boost equal to what such an increase would net: MsCL = WarLvl + SpLvl (+ MtLvl, more on that after); Total-CL = MsCL + ET-Spellcasting-CL-bonus + ET-Invocation-CL-bonus.


Regarding MT, is your argument that caster level is not one of the "level-based variables of the spells you cast"?

[Anthrowhale]

You might look at Theurgic Specialist + Master Spellthief. It's pretty easy to get caster level >100 with L9 spell access.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You might look at Theurgic Specialist + Master Spellthief. It's pretty easy to get caster level >100 with L9 spell access.Especially nice with a changeling dual-specialist. Illusion and transmutation. Or if you're an illusionist/shadowcraft mage.

[Anthrowhale]

Especially nice with a changeling dual-specialist. Illusion and transmutation. Or if you're an illusionist/shadowcraft mage.

Abyssal Specialist + Aligned Spellcaster [Chaotic] is also pretty compelling.

[weckar]

Technically, Elrditch Theurge does not count at all. It is not a class that grants spellcasting, i.e. if you somehow got into it without already having casting it would do nothing.

What ET grants us is an increase in caster level, equal to what we would gain from gaining a class level in a chosen class. It has two features to this effect, one for invocations and one for regular casting. Normally, these factors do not interact, as caster levels for different classes are separate.

This separation is what Master Spellthief alters. It's effect is that our arcane caster level becomes a function of all our arcane spellcaster levels combined. Gaining a spellcaster level in any of those classes increases our overall CL by 1. As such, both CL-boosting abilities of Eldritch Theurge are applied to the same caster level calculation. but ET does not grant 'spellcaster' levels; it grants caster levels, which is not what MS adds up. I refer to the 'you do not gain any other benefits...' clause.

Regarding MT, is your argument that caster level is not one of the "level-based variables of the spells you cast"?
Yes. It applies for spells, not for feats. Same way it would not get you caster level x for qualifying for a prc.

[Jowgen]

You might look at Theurgic Specialist + Master Spellthief.

Lets have a look...


When casting a spell from your specialist school (off the spell list of any spellcasting class you have), you can add together the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes to determine your caster level.

Okay, I assume the reading you're going with is that MS makes each class's CL based of the sum of class levels, while this makes a specific school's caster level the sum of all sums.

This might actually work, but it be real tricky language at play. MS gives us "caster level for all arcane spells", while TS adds together "caster levels of all your spellcasting classes". If the prior is considered to fit the latter, then it should actually work.

If it doesn't then MS and TS compete for which sets the higher value.

As a positive though, if they do work together, we can slot 3 levels of Wizard (well 4) into the existing sample build no issue. We pick Sorc for MT, get the chausible of fellpower to only require 1 lvl of Warlock, and one level of spellthief as always. ET can progress our Wizard casting, so with only 2 levels spent on the other base classes, we can indeed get 9ths no issue.

Regardless of TS, going War 1, Spell 1, Wizard x, ET 10 is probably the best arrangement.

[WhamBamSam]

but ET does not grant 'spellcaster' levels; it grants caster levels, which is not what MS adds up. I refer to the 'you do not gain any other benefits...' clause.

Yes. It applies for spells, not for feats. Same way it would not get you caster level x for qualifying for a prc.I would argue that "spellcaster levels" refer to effective levels of casting progression, so a Wizard 8 and Wizard 3/Master Specialist 5 would have the same spellcaster level of 8 as they both cast as an 8th level Wizard.

[Anthrowhale]

Okay, I assume the reading you're going with is that MS makes each class's CL based of the sum of class levels, while this makes a specific school's caster level the sum of all sums.

This might actually work, but it be real tricky language at play. MS gives us "caster level for all arcane spells", while TS adds together "caster levels of all your spellcasting classes". If the prior is considered to fit the latter, then it should actually work.


I think the question here is: If all the spells you cast as a wizard are at caster level 20, is your wizard caster level 20? The answer could be "no", in which case it doesn't work since TS operates off of class caster level. Let's go with no so as the conservative interpretation.

Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord, and Nar Demonbinder directly set "class caster level". Practiced Spellcaster directly adjusts "class caster level". Hence, all of these directly affect the Theurgic Specialist calculation which produces a "caster level" for specialist spells from the "class caster level" of multiple classes.

Circle Magic and Master Spellthief set "caster level" while Suffer the Flesh adjusts "caster level". Conservatively, these do not adjust "class caster level" implying they do not affect the Theurgic Specialist calculation.

There is another issue with Master Spellthief in that it's formula uses levels of spellcasting classes. Eldritch Theurge is perhaps not a spellcasting class?

[Venger]

nar demonbinder helps boost cl, plus it provides native access to blasphemy, and inimical casting lets you turn it into any of its degenerates to kill all kinds of enemies.

[Jowgen]

I think the question here is: If all the spells you cast as a wizard are at caster level 20, is your wizard caster level 20? The answer could be "no", in which case it doesn't work since TS operates off of class caster level. Let's go with no so as the conservative interpretation.

Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord, and Nar Demonbinder directly set "class caster level". Practiced Spellcaster directly adjusts "class caster level". Hence, all of these directly affect the Theurgic Specialist calculation which produces a "caster level" for specialist spells from the "class caster level" of multiple classes.

Circle Magic and Master Spellthief set "caster level" while Suffer the Flesh adjusts "caster level". Conservatively, these do not adjust "class caster level" implying they do not affect the Theurgic Specialist calculation.

There is another issue with Master Spellthief in that it's formula uses levels of spellcasting classes. Eldritch Theurge is perhaps not a spellcasting class?

So conservatively, TS really represents a separate/alternative method of CL optimization outside Master Spellthief.

Nar Demonbinder has a CL of its level "plus his levels in one other spellcasting class". Ur-priest's has a CL of its level plus "one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes". Sublime Chord sets CL for both itself and other arcane casters equal at CL of its level plus its "level in another arcane spellcasting class".

It works, but the overall gain in CL beyond HD seems to be rather limited regardless of set-up :smallfrown:


EDIT: Complete tangent that just occurred to me: Magical Training might be of surprising benefit to a master spellthief, regardless of the the caster level boost.

MT grants us a wizard spellbook. With the exception of Conjuration, Evocation and Necromancy, all wizard spells are spellthief spells as well, and therefore eligible for being copied into our spellbook. As spells we have in our spellbook technically count as known, and are also spellthief spells, nothing should prevent a spellthief from using Steal Spell to cast any of those scribed spells by using a stolen spell as fuel.

Assuming that Master Spellthief is read as improving the Steal Spell ability as a whole (separate discussion), this gives a Spellthief 1, other X with Master Spellthief the ability to gain access to spells without having to rely on Knowstones.

[Anthrowhale]

It works, but the overall gain in CL beyond HD seems to be rather limited regardless of set-up :smallfrown:

Consider a Wizard 10/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 9 taking TS and Practiced Spellcaster[Ur-Priest]. Wizard caster level is 19. The baseline caster level of Ur-Priest is 15 which Practiced Spellcaster makes 19. Theurgic Specialist then makes specialist spells have caster level 38 which is potentially quite potent when using Holy Word type spells.

The other thing to consider is: compared to what? Faerun Circle magic gives caster level 40. If we are conservative about Master Spellthief, then you can get at most caster level 20 out of it since you can take at most 1 spellcasting class level per level (unless gestalt is in play).

Let me also rain on Magical Training for a moment. It says "you ... are treated as a sorcerer ... of your arcane spellcaster level ... for the purpose of determining level-based variables of the spells you cast." This is language which sets an effective spell caster level. Since it's not a real level, it can't be used in formulas with real level inputs.

One thing to be careful with is to check that "spell caster level" and "class caster level" are both game concepts. It appears the answer is "yes". Spell caster level is discussed with spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel). Class caster level is implied to exist by Theurgic Specialist, Practiced Spellcaster, etc..

This leaves something like "Suffer the Flesh" a bit ambiguous since it just talks about "caster level" without specifying "class caster level" or "spell caster level". Does it increase your "class caster level"? Or your "spell caster level"? It seems that calling it "spell caster level" by default is the more conservative ruling, just as for Master Spellthief.


EDIT: Complete tangent that just occurred to me: Magical Training might be of surprising benefit to a master spellthief, regardless of the the caster level boost.

MT grants us a wizard spellbook. With the exception of Conjuration, Evocation and Necromancy, all wizard spells are spellthief spells as well, and therefore eligible for being copied into our spellbook. As spells we have in our spellbook technically count as known, and are also spellthief spells, nothing should prevent a spellthief from using Steal Spell to cast any of those scribed spells by using a stolen spell as fuel.

Assuming that Master Spellthief is read as improving the Steal Spell ability as a whole (separate discussion), this gives a Spellthief 1, other X with Master Spellthief the ability to gain access to spells without having to rely on Knowstones.
There is text in the Rules Compendium which says that spontaneous casting from class A cannot use spells known from class B. This was a big disappointment for Wizard 1/Archivist n with Uncanny Forethought.

[Sleven]

Lots to unpack here, so here's my 15 minutes or less on the subject:


I was not aware of your prior work, though I guess one could see this as the PO version of your TO build, as we're actively avoiding an infinite loop situation.

This and a number of other builds are part of a fair amount of TO and PO builds I've sat on for over a decade, only seeing use in actual games. Occasionally I saw a few of the concepts crop up later, but as with most of the community, I'm by no means original.

It is rather unfortunate though, because at the time I had a little more time on my hands and was considering slowly adding a number of other builds of mine from "back in the day" to that thread but was turned off by the moderation's movement of my posts (I like having them all in one place).




KotW makes its own CL equal to class level plus other arcane CLs, but since it doesn't increase virtual spellcaster level


You have 3 class levels in warlock, 3 in spellthief, and if we are generous and count eldritch theurge as another arcane casting class that's another 3 (if we aren't generous, by the way, it would come from its own CL granting class extension ability -- that does not provide class levels in what you had before.). Magical training does not grant class levels.


I would argue that "spellcaster levels" refer to effective levels of casting progression, so a Wizard 8 and Wizard 3/Master Specialist 5 would have the same spellcaster level of 8 as they both cast as an 8th level Wizard.

etc.

There seems to be this unfounded assumption that spellcaster levels somehow refers to class levels, rather than caster levels. Where does this come from? I don't know. The glossary is not entirely silent on this subject. There are entries for both "caster level" and "spellcaster", neither of which requires a character capable of casting spells/spellcaster to have its caster level equal to their class level in a spellcasting class (see PHB glossary for details). In fact, you will note that when class levels are mentioned, they are worded in a very specific manner, "the spellcaster's class level." Not, "spellcaster level."

Furthermore, I submit the wording of the Master Spellthief feat itself as evidence of its function. First of all, the feat grants three separate effects, thus has three separate sections. They are worded differently, so let's start by separating them and then note the distinctions:


Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief.

It deals with levels in classes that grant (or advance) arcane spellcasting and specifically and repeatedly uses the word "classes" or "class" to make sure we understand the distinction. Note the specific use of the words, "levels of other arcane spellcaster classes," and not, "spellcaster levels."


Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells. The character described above would have a caster level of 8th for both his spellthief spells and his wizard spells.

Here it clearly deviates from the language used in the first portion of the feat, specifying this time "arcane spellcaster levels" and not just levels in an arcane spellcasting class. The PHB glossary's distinct use of the words "spellcaster's class level" under the glossary entry for caster level is important here when assessing the feat's function. The words "class level" need to follow in order for something to be referring to levels in classes--as they do in the first section of the feat--whereas "spellcaster levels" is most likened to "caster levels".


In addition, you do not incur a chance of arcane spell failure for arcane spells cast or stolen from other classes, but only if you are wearing light armor. You incur the normal arcane spell failure chance when wearing medium or heavy armor or when using a shield.

No one argues about what this does, but it's included here for completion to make sure you're all clear on the distinction between each of the feat's abilities.

TLDR: In the feat Master Spellthief use of the words "spellcaster levels" is equivalent to "caster levels", while use of the words "levels of arcane spellcaster classes" is equivalent to "spellcaster's class levels" in a class that grants arcane spellcasting.




MT grants us a wizard spellbook. With the exception of Conjuration, Evocation and Necromancy, all wizard spells are spellthief spells as well, and therefore eligible for being copied into our spellbook. As spells we have in our spellbook technically count as known [...]

Are you sure you haven't read one of my threads on the subject before? This is even part of the build I originally referenced you to.


There is text in the Rules Compendium which says that spontaneous casting from class A cannot use spells known from class B. This was a big disappointment for Wizard 1/Archivist n with Uncanny Forethought.

Feats like Versatile Spellcaster and Uncanny Forethought don't grant spontaneous spellcasting and are not considered spontaneous spellcasting. They have specific language for their specific functions and specific trumps general. Reading it any other way is trying to convolute the subject. It's best to read the rules in the simplest manner possible.

[Jowgen]

Consider a Wizard 10/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 9 taking TS and Practiced Spellcaster[Ur-Priest]. Wizard caster level is 19. The baseline caster level of Ur-Priest is 15 which Practiced Spellcaster makes 19. Theurgic Specialist then makes specialist spells have caster level 38 which is potentially quite potent when using Holy Word type spells.

The other thing to consider is: compared to what? Faerun Circle magic gives caster level 40. If we are conservative about Master Spellthief, then you can get at most caster level 20 out of it since you can take at most 1 spellcasting class level per level (unless gestalt is in play).

I'd forgotten Praticed Spellcaster adding into it, and you're right, the return is rather sizeable.


Let me also rain on Magical Training for a moment. It says "you ... are treated as a sorcerer ... of your arcane spellcaster level ... for the purpose of determining level-based variables of the spells you cast." This is language which sets an effective spell caster level. Since it's not a real level, it can't be used in formulas with real level inputs.

I don't see why a virtual level wouldn't apply. MS stacks spellcaster levels to determine CL and and MT lets us count as if we had X spellcaster levels for level-based variables for spells. It seems to me that what MT is to explicitly allow us to count as something we are not for the very kind of MS counts on. :smallconfused:


One thing to be careful with is to check that "spell caster level" and "class caster level" are both game concepts. It appears the answer is "yes". Spell caster level is discussed with spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel). Class caster level is implied to exist by Theurgic Specialist, Practiced Spellcaster, etc..

This leaves something like "Suffer the Flesh" a bit ambiguous since it just talks about "caster level" without specifying "class caster level" or "spell caster level". Does it increase your "class caster level"? Or your "spell caster level"? It seems that calling it "spell caster level" by default is the more conservative ruling, just as for Master Spellthief.

I've looked into this in response to Sleven's proposition that spellcaster level = CL, response below in the relevant section.


There is text in the Rules Compendium which says that spontaneous casting from class A cannot use spells known from class B. This was a big disappointment for Wizard 1/Archivist n with Uncanny Forethought.

I'm aware of the general rule here, the idea is that the way in which Steal Spell and the Spellthief spell-list rules are worded allow us to get around this specifically for wizard spells that we have in our spellbook; i.e. Steal Spell requiring only that they be Spellthief spells we know, but spellthief technically not having its own spell list, with a "spellthief spell" being defined as any spell from the specified subset of Sorc/Wiz spells.

I don't think we could use spell-slots gained from Spellthief to cast Wizard spellbook spells, it has to be the Steal Spell ability.


Lots to unpack here, so here's my 15 minutes or less on the subject:

I appreciate you taking the time.


Are you sure you haven't read one of my threads on the subject before? This is even part of the build I originally referenced you to.

I was put onto Magical Training x Master Spellthief by someone mentioning it in the current fun finds thread over on minmax. Steal Spell x Master Spellthief I was in a discussion on here a while back. The thought of using Steal Spell x Magical Training to get more spells known to drawn from genuinely occured to me while I was re-reading the reply I ended up editing with the thought. Ummm... Great minds think alike? :smalltongue:


There seems to be this unfounded assumption that spellcaster levels somehow refers to class levels, rather than caster levels. Where does this come from? I don't know. The glossary is not entirely silent on this subject. There are entries for both "caster level" and "spellcaster", neither of which requires a character capable of casting spells/spellcaster to have its caster level equal to their class level in a spellcasting class (see PHB glossary for details). In fact, you will note that when class levels are mentioned, they are worded in a very specific manner, "the spellcaster's class level." Not, "spellcaster level."

I've looked into this and can explain where the assumption comes from.

The Sage FAQ makes a distinction between caster level (points out the various ways it can be modulated) and Spellcaster level, tying it to levels in spellcasting classes, with the interesting annotation that the levels don't actually need to advance spellcasting. A Rogue 4, Wizard 1 with practiced spellcaster has CL 5 but spellcaster level 1, but a 5th level paladin has a CL of 2, but has a spellcaster level of 5, according to the sage.

I've looked into it a bit further and it looks like the writers of various books weren't entirely clear on the distinction, with some inconsistencies.

My copy of the PHB has the prerequisites for Item Creation feats as "Spellcaster level X", while the SRD now just uses Caster Level. Similarly, my DMG's rules for Wild Magic planes requires a level check to cast spells made based on spellcaster level, but the SRD just makes it a regular level check. It seems like their were stealth-errata-ing spellcaster level out of the rules.

All iterations of the imporved familiar feat require arcane spellcaster levels. The 3e Sage FAQ states that Sorc and Wiz levels stack for this purpose, but Bard does not because it does not progress Familiar. Weird.

According to Draconomicon, Dragons count has having spellcaster levels (determines how much spare XP they have), which if you go with the Sage's ruling ought to make their Spellcaster level equal to their racial HD, but by any sane interpretation means the level Sorcerer casting they have.

Greenstar Adept from Complete Arcane and Tome & Blood version of True Necromancer seem to share the same approach.


Improved Caster Level (Ex): A Green Star adept adds his class level to his caster level in another arcane spellcasting class to determine his effective spellcaster level. If the character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a Green Star adept, the player must decide to which class to add each adept level for this purpose.
For example, a 5th-level wizard/4th-level Green Star adept’s caster level would be 9th, due to this ability, but he would only have access to 4th-level spells (5th-level wizard plus two arcane spellcasting class levels from being
a 4th-level Green Star adept).

When she casts necromantic spells (from the school of Necromancy or the domain of Death), all her spellcaster levels stack for purposes of determining their effect. She does not gain access to higher-level spells any faster than normal, but the specified spells behave as though cast by someone of that higher level.
For example, a 5th-level cleric/5th-level wizard/2ndlevel true necromancer has added her two effective level increases to her wizard class. If she casts an arcane, nonnecromancy spell, her caster level is 7th, while for a divine, nondeath spell, it is 5th. However, if she casts a spell from the Necromancy school or Death domain, her effective caster level is 12th (equal to her character level).

Based on the above, I propose the following definition

Spellcaster level is separate from Caster Level. It describes the number of levels you effectively have for the purposes of counting as a particular kind of spellcaster, e.g. Sorc 5 or arcane 10. Depending on the class, your basic CL might be equal to your spellcaster level or lower. Things that raise CL don't raise spellcaster level, but increases in spellcaster level increase your caster level by as much as the corresponding gain in levels in that class would do.

"Levels in X class" describes something more limited/specific than Spellcaster level, as in some cases you can gain spellcaster level seperate from class levels (e.g. racial casting, MT, etc.) and spellcaster level can apply to types of casters (arcane/divine/with or without familiar) rather than just class level.

This is all needlessly convoluted, and I can see why it was phased out in the SRD. :smallannoyed:

I think your reading of Master Spellthief largely lines up with this, except you combine CL and Spellcaster level as seperate from Levels in X class (2 catogires) while I see then as all describing subtly different things (3 categories).

[Anthrowhale]

I don't see why a virtual level wouldn't apply. MS stacks spellcaster levels to determine CL and and MT lets us count as if we had X spellcaster levels for level-based variables for spells. It seems to me that what MT is to explicitly allow us to count as something we are not for the very kind of MS counts on. :smallconfused:

The thinking is: Magical Training grants virtual spellcaster levels for the purpose of level-based variables of spells _only_. In particular, it does not grant virtual spellcaster levels for other purposes, such as pumping up the output of Master Spellthief.



I don't think we could use spell-slots gained from Spellthief to cast Wizard spellbook spells, it has to be the Steal Spell ability.

Huh, you may be right. In particular, this potentially allows a Spellthief to cast chosen 9th level spells from a stolen 9th level spell, which seems pretty nice...

Edit: On the "level" confusion, I think it might help to make things a little bit more concrete because subtle differences in wording seem to matter.

Master Spellthief uses: "levels of ... arcane spellcaster classes" which it clarifies parenthetically as "levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting".
Theurgic Specialist uses: "the caster levels of all your spellcasting classes"
Magical Training uses: "arcane spellcaster level"
Orange Ioun stone provides: "+1 caster level"
Mindbender requires: "Arcane caster level 5th"

Now, consider two characters.
1) A great wyrm gold dragon. For Master Spellthief and Theurgic Specialist, I believe this is 0 since there are no spellcaster classes. For Magical Training, it is however 19 because it casts spells as a 19th level sorcerer. The GWGD qualifies for Mindbender.

2) A Wizard 3/Master Specialist 1 with an Orange Ioun Stone .
For Master Spellthief this is 3, since there are only 3 levels of Wizard and Master Specialist is not a spellcaster class.
For Theurgic Specialist, this is 4 since the effective levels of spellcasting granted by Master Specialist make the caster level 4. The Orange Ioun Stone could be interpreted as affecting the caster level of the class in which case it would be 5 but the more conservative interpretation is that it just affects the caster level of cast spells.
For Magical Training it is also 4 because "spellcaster level" encompasses more than just "caster level".
However, the character does qualify for Mindbender since caster level 5 arcane spells can be generated.

So, I end up drawing a distinction between "levels of spellcaster class", "caster level of spellcasting class", "spellcaster level", and "caster level".