[3.5] Tibbit Tripper

[MisterKaws]

I've been toying with this idea for a few years now, and I need some help.

This is mostly theoretical, but I'd rather keep it more on the practical side, in case I ever find a DM crazy enough to let me play Judo Kitty.

The gist of it is: Twining Trip forces opponents tripped to use their Dexterity check, and Confound the Big Folk forces them to do the counter-trip check with no size bonuses. For most big monsters, this means they're doing a check with a +0 modifier, and maybe even negative. A Tibbit in cat form normally has a -8 modifier to Trip, but this can be reduced to -4 by Pebble Underfoot, which is further reduced to +0 with Improved Trip.

I know of two ways to increase the trip bonus even further: Marshal and Factotum. Marshal 1 has Motivate Dexterity which adds your Charisma bonus to Dexterity checks, and Skill Focus(Diplomacy) for feat shenanigans(I'll explain later). Factotum 3 has Brains Over Brawn, which adds your Intelligence bonus to Dexterity checks. My current stub is like this:



Level

Class

Feats

Class Features



2

Passive Way Monk 1

IUAB, Combat ExpertiseB, Don't Mind Me

Flurry of Blows



3

Passive Way Monk 2

Improved TripB

Invisible Fist



4

Hit-and-Run Fighter 1

Twining Trip, Pebble UnderfootB

Hit-and-Run Tactics



5

Factotum 1


Inspiration, Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge, Trapfinding



6

Factotum 2


Arcane Dilettante(1-lvl0)



7

Factotum 3

Skill Focus(Diplomacy)

Arcane Dilettante(1-lvl1), Brains Over Brawn, Cunning Defense



8






9






10

Marshal 1

Underfoot Combat, Skill Focus(Diplomacy)B->Confound the Big FolkB

Minor Aura(Motivate Dexterity)




The trick to Skill Focus(Diplomacy) is that if you already have it, Marshal lets you pick any other feat to which you qualify, which is basically the only way aside from Human Paragon to take Confound the Big Folk before level 12(okay, okay, there's Hin Disciple, but that's not a cat), and we want that as early as possible.

Aside from that, we get to roll trip+Dex+Cha+Int against the creature's trip+Dex with no size bonuses... But this still isn't an auto-success unless you got 22s across all three scores, and the more realistic result is having 20 Dex(16+4 racial) 16 Int 18 Cha(16+2 from leveling), for a total +12. That's still about 10% chance of failure.

I got two completely blank levels for this, and a spell slot for possible shenanigans, though using shape-shifting and size increases would block the cat feats from working so that's out. Does anyone have an idea on how to best us those two levels, or should I just throw more Fighter/Feat Rogue/Swashbuckler(for Finesse)? Maybe Swordsage? But I don't think you can use Setting Sun maneuvers with Confound the Big Folk.

Any suggestions? Future level progression as well, if you got any.

[The Viscount]

Is your strength high enough to take knock-down? If it isn't due to Tibbit's racial penalty in cat form, might I interest you in 2 levels of chaotic evil soulborn? It would necessitate that you "fall" from being a monk so can't return.

If you have the skill ranks for Mosquito's Bite, it would make this trick very funny.

[RaiKirah]

Not sure where you would fit in the Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus (Swordsage would arguably give you these for Spiked Chain with Shadow Hand Discipline Focus, though I don't personally believe it does) but Exotic Weapon Master taking Trip Attack gives you an untyped +2 with a tripping weapon. A custom spiked Chain wielded with Prehensile Tail could be used here.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

[The Viscount]

Swordsage gives you weapon focus, but not proficiency. You'd have to obtain that yourself.

[Venger]

doubtful, since it requires a 15. no great loss there, since monk is only 2 levels long

[RaiKirah]

Swordsage gives you weapon focus, but not proficiency. You'd have to obtain that yourself.

Swordsage gives you the benefit of Weapon Focus, but not the feat itself. Hence the questionable nature of using it for prereqs.

[MisterKaws]

Is your strength high enough to take knock-down? If it isn't due to Tibbit's racial penalty in cat form, might I interest you in 2 levels of chaotic evil soulborn? It would necessitate that you "fall" from being a monk so can't return.

If you have the skill ranks for Mosquito's Bite, it would make this trick very funny.

Knock-down with Mosquito's Bite... Okay that's ridiculous. I like it.


Not sure where you would fit in the Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus (Swordsage would arguably give you these for Spiked Chain with Shadow Hand Discipline Focus, though I don't personally believe it does) but Exotic Weapon Master taking Trip Attack gives you an untyped +2 with a tripping weapon. A custom spiked Chain wielded with Prehensile Tail could be used here.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

I thought about it. Might be a level after it, but not before, because of BAB constraints. Also Monks get proficiency with Kama for free, and Kamas can be made Mouthpick. After that Swordsage could get the Kama focus. Still, this build isn't that feat-starved anyways.

[Piggy Knowles]

A somewhat different direction for a tibbit tripper would be to take four levels in soulborn. A chaotic evil soulborn ignores any penalties to Strength (such as, say, the -8 penalty you'd get for turning into a kitty), which means you don't need to muck around with the April Fool's content to switch from Strength to Dex on your trip checks. You'd still want Confound the Big Folk to ignore your opponent's size bonus though.

Edit: serves me right for not reading the replies, looks like Viscount beat me to the punch with this suggestion.

[The Viscount]

If as Piggy Knowles suggested you went with 4 levels of soulborn and a strength based build you could make use of one of their rare exclusive melds, the Mauling gauntlets to boost str-based checks, which would include trip.

[MisterKaws]

A somewhat different direction for a tibbit tripper would be to take four levels in soulborn. A chaotic evil soulborn ignores any penalties to Strength (such as, say, the -8 penalty you'd get for turning into a kitty), which means you don't need to muck around with the April Fool's content to switch from Strength to Dex on your trip checks. You'd still want Confound the Big Folk to ignore your opponent's size bonus though.

Twining Trip is not because of the Tibbit's low Strength. It's to deny the strength of Colossal targets. They always have low Dex and high Strength, so denying them their Strength score and then denying them their size makes them as easy to trip as level 1 Commoners. And using the Rules of the Game Article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a), you can trip flying foes to deal 15d6 to them, along with forcing them to spend actions getting up.

[Piggy Knowles]

Indeed. I find myself pretty allergic to April Fools content, but since it's being posited as the core idea behind the build, that's neither here nor there. If you're sticking with Twining Trip, soulborn no longer becomes a particularly good option (since Twining Trip requires you use your own Dex as well).

For the build itself...

Going up to level 6 in Passive Way monk would mean you get a +4 bonus to your trip check if your opponent is flat-footed, which they should be thanks to Confound the Big Folk's knee striker ability. But that requires four more levels, which isn't really doable without dropping factotum. (That said... you COULD drop factotum if the +4 bonus is greater than what you'd get from Brains over Brawns, especially considering that then you could focus just on Dex+Cha instead of Dex+Cha+Int.)

If you can get the ability to rage somehow without violating your monkly vows, the Wolf Berserker feat from Unapproachable East gives you an untyped +4 bonus to trip checks and lets you qualify for Improved Trip without needing Combat Expertise. My usual go-to method for getting rage on a lawful character (half-orc paragon) won't work here. Not sure if there's a way around it, but that's a pretty decent bonus if you can pull it off.

As an aside, are you sure Twining Trip and Confound the Big Folk's unsteady footing ability can be combined? Unsteady footing specifically allows your opponent to use their Strength or Dexterity.

[MisterKaws]

Indeed. I find myself pretty allergic to April Fools content, but since it's being posited as the core idea behind the build, that's neither here nor there. If you're sticking with Twining Trip, soulborn no longer becomes a particularly good option (since Twining Trip requires you use your own Dex as well).

For the build itself...

Going up to level 6 in Passive Way monk would mean you get a +4 bonus to your trip check if your opponent is flat-footed, which they should be thanks to Confound the Big Folk's knee striker ability. But that requires four more levels, which isn't really doable without dropping factotum. (That said... you COULD drop factotum if the +4 bonus is greater than what you'd get from Brains over Brawns, especially considering that then you could focus just on Dex+Cha instead of Dex+Cha+Int.)

This is interesting. Yes, it definitely works. I could just push four more levels and then put Factotum after Marshal.


If you can get the ability to rage somehow without violating your monkly vows, the Wolf Berserker feat from Unapproachable East gives you an untyped +4 bonus to trip checks and lets you qualify for Improved Trip without needing Combat Expertise. My usual go-to method for getting rage on a lawful character (half-orc paragon) won't work here. Not sure if there's a way around it, but that's a pretty decent bonus if you can pull it off.

Probably can do with spells or some obscure class. Worth researching.


As an aside, are you sure Twining Trip and Confound the Big Folk's unsteady footing ability can be combined? Unsteady footing specifically allows your opponent to use their Strength or Dexterity.

Confound the Big Folk says "as normal", which implies that the exception to the "normal" granted by Twining Trip should apply.

[Kalkra]

If there's any way to work Hammer and Piton in, do it. The idea of a cat sitting on top of an opponent's head and somehow tripping it is too good to pass up.

[Piggy Knowles]

Hm, I just looked at passive way again and it looks like it might not work after all. Unfortunately the ability specifies the boost specifically applies to Strength checks to trip the enemy.

What about going the other direction, removing monk entirely and going barbarian instead? Wolf totem barbarians get Improved Trip as a bonus feat at level 2. Especially considering that you have levels to spare that could be filled with fighter or feat rogue, you should be able to meet all your reqs without monk and still have room for the Wolf Berserker feat for the extra +4 to tripping (and I just double checked - that bonus doesn't call out Strength checks in particular). The ferocity barbarian ACF from Cityscape's web enhancement would even give you a bonus to your Dex. With ferocity and Wolf Berserker, that's an effective +6 to your trip checks above what the current build gets.

[MisterKaws]

If there's any way to work Hammer and Piton in, do it. The idea of a cat sitting on top of an opponent's head and somehow tripping it is too good to pass up.

Wait, doesn't that sort of, maybe, possibly chain into Confound the Big Folk? You're taking a move action to get into their square. Does it matter that you're already in their square at the beginning of the attack? I don't think it does.

[pabelfly]

Came across this "I may be Tiny, But You're Dead" build thread, and thought I'd share it here if any of the build ideas would help develop your own build, since the two seem to be based on a similar concept, even though they use different races to do it.

https://web.archive.org/web/20151031032936/http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1059231

[Segev]

I can't help but imagine this build was conceived after dealing with an underfootcat that kept rubbing on your ankles while you tried to walk.

Or is it just me who has a cat that does that?

[MisterKaws]

I can't help but imagine this build was conceived after dealing with an underfootcat that kept rubbing on your ankles while you tried to walk.

Or is it just me who has a cat that does that?

My cat was chill, but my current dog does like to headbutt the back of my knees when I pass through the frontyard.

[Telonius]

I can't help but imagine this build was conceived after dealing with an underfootcat that kept rubbing on your ankles while you tried to walk.

Or is it just me who has a cat that does that?

No, definitely not the only one. I would almost be okay with giving any small feline a +2 racial bonus to Trip attacks.

[Falontani]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23314584&postcount=95

Villainous competition had a build under the same line of thought.

[MisterKaws]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23314584&postcount=95

Villainous competition had a build under the same line of thought.

This is nice. Very nice. Thanks.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

If you can get the ability to rage somehow without violating your monkly vows, the Wolf Berserker feat from Unapproachable East gives you an untyped +4 bonus to trip checks and lets you qualify for Improved Trip without needing Combat Expertise. My usual go-to method for getting rage on a lawful character (half-orc paragon) won't work here. Not sure if there's a way around it, but that's a pretty decent bonus if you can pull it off.

My usual go-to for rage is to crib it off an animal that has it (wolverines and badgers) by lycanthropy, anthropomorphic animals, or Weretouched Master. Obviously none of those work here, but I think I've found a substitute:

Druidic Avenger (UA) gets Rage at 1st level, sacrificing the ability to spontaneously cast SNA and their animal companion, and taking a penalty to Wild Empathy (and they get Fast Movement, which is nice). Plus, it's rather fitting for a druid to enter an animal lodge. Does limit you to Lawful Neutral, though.

[ChaosStar]

Unless you can ignore prerequisites, you can't get Confound the Big Folk at that point. You need Underfoot Combat first as it's a prereq for Confound the Big Folk.

[ExLibrisMortis]

For a Strength-based tibbit tripper, Persistent strength of the true form is the classic go-to. Since you're looking for Dexterity, however, it doesn't do as much good, but perhaps you can combine it with a 1/day item of draconic polymorph. If you Persist that along with strength of the true form, and then take cat shape, you can argue that your "original form" is the polymorphed form, which has an obscene Dexterity score, naturally (and a lot of Strength, but that's secondary). You'd need a lot of feats to get Persistent Spell, and then free metamagic or 7th-level spell slot. I think cleric 1 with Planning and DMM is the best way to go, but strength of the true form is a sorcerer exclusive. Hmmm :smallconfused:.

[Troacctid]

Hm, I just looked at passive way again and it looks like it might not work after all. Unfortunately the ability specifies the boost specifically applies to Strength checks to trip the enemy.

What about going the other direction, removing monk entirely and going barbarian instead? Wolf totem barbarians get Improved Trip as a bonus feat at level 2. Especially considering that you have levels to spare that could be filled with fighter or feat rogue, you should be able to meet all your reqs without monk and still have room for the Wolf Berserker feat for the extra +4 to tripping (and I just double checked - that bonus doesn't call out Strength checks in particular). The ferocity barbarian ACF from Cityscape's web enhancement would even give you a bonus to your Dex. With ferocity and Wolf Berserker, that's an effective +6 to your trip checks above what the current build gets.
The easiest way to get rage would be with the raging monk variant from Dragon Magazine, since the build already uses monk. However, I feel I must point out that Wolf Berserker gives a bonus to the attack roll, not the ability check.

[MisterKaws]

Unless you can ignore prerequisites, you can't get Confound the Big Folk at that point. You need Underfoot Combat first as it's a prereq for Confound the Big Folk.

Class features are obtained after feats. Underfoot Combat is obtained before Skill Focus because Skill Focus is a class feature. And since the character already has Skill Focus, it is turned into any feat to which it fulfills the pre-requisites, thus turning into Confound the Big Folk.


For a Strength-based tibbit tripper, Persistent strength of the true form is the classic go-to. Since you're looking for Dexterity, however, it doesn't do as much good, but perhaps you can combine it with a 1/day item of draconic polymorph. If you Persist that along with strength of the true form, and then take cat shape, you can argue that your "original form" is the polymorphed form, which has an obscene Dexterity score, naturally (and a lot of Strength, but that's secondary). You'd need a lot of feats to get Persistent Spell, and then free metamagic or 7th-level spell slot. I think cleric 1 with Planning and DMM is the best way to go, but strength of the true form is a sorcerer exclusive. Hmmm :smallconfused:.

Way too much investment to get spells that high, though. I want a build as early as possible.


The easiest way to get rage would be with the raging monk variant from Dragon Magazine, since the build already uses monk. However, I feel I must point out that Wolf Berserker gives a bonus to the attack roll, not the ability check.

It's nice to know it exists, though since Wolf Berserker doesn't give a bonus to the opposite check, it seems pointless.

[ChaosStar]

Class features are obtained after feats. Underfoot Combat is obtained before Skill Focus because Skill Focus is a class feature. And since the character already has Skill Focus, it is turned into any feat to which it fulfills the pre-requisites, thus turning into Confound the Big Folk.

Last I looked Underfoot Combat wasn't on there. Glad to see it is now.

[MisterKaws]

Last I looked Underfoot Combat wasn't on there. Glad to see it is now.

Yeah, I stealth-edited it just today:


Last edited by MisterKaws; 2019-07-19 at 02:29 PM.

[Mato]

I seen swordsage mentioned a few times but not setting sun. Most of the throwing maneuvers work off trip and give a +4 bonus.

[MisterKaws]

I seen swordsage mentioned a few times but not setting sun. Most of the throwing maneuvers work off trip and give a +4 bonus.

The problem is they don't exactly work by RAW with Confound the Big Folk. You're using a Standard Action to initiate a maneuver, not a trip attack, even if the maneuver itself involves tripping.